• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • Hey Guest. Check out the NeoGAF 2.2 Update Thread for details on our new Giphy integration and other new features.

|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

TBiddy

Member
Mar 16, 2015
4,454
5,755
770
Denmark
Bottom-line: Simply using an SSD on a PCE-E 4.0 bus isn't enough to satisfy the PS5's data-needs. Fast IO is the main differentiator of the PS5 versus past gens/other consoles. A completely custom solution is the most likely outcome. Microsoft will-indeed have a problem keeping up. Microsoft could easily use a custom solution too to ultra-fast IO, but doing so might negatively affect their ability to design games that run across their various platforms.

I'm not sure how that makes sense. Why would a custom solution for the nextbox negatively impact their ability to design games that run on - let's say - a PC?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sycomunkee

SonGoku

Gold Member
Aug 16, 2018
4,760
6,579
635
I'm not sure how that makes sense. Why would a custom solution for the nextbox negatively impact their ability to design games that run on - let's say - a PC?
Because in PC there wouldn't be an equal solution and if there is only a minority would have access to it.

For the record i don't think it will be a problem, PCs with SATA3 SSDs could just preload all assets on system DDR4. Next gen gaming PCs with 32GB+ of DDR4/5 will be more common.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Insane Metal

CJY

Banned
Jan 8, 2016
2,563
5,638
725
I'm not sure how that makes sense. Why would a custom solution for the nextbox negatively impact their ability to design games that run on - let's say - a PC?
I don't know if you have seen this loading time demonstration?:


This is just an early technology demo, but from 40seconds onwards, you can see them speeding through the cityscape at an increasingly faster speed. I think the world in the demo is from Spider Man, but imagine an exclusive PS5-only Superman game where you are literally flying around Metropolis at super-sonic speeds. In this theoretical scenario, the super-fast data read speed of the PS5 will be utilised to stream data at speeds 5-10X faster that what the typical PC is capable of, or perhaps even what a high-end gaming PC is capable of.

My main point is just that Sony don't have to take PCs into consideration in designing the PS5, and while neither do MS with the NextBox, it makes sense that MS will, as they seem intent on effectively unifying and homogenising all their games and platforms into one singular "experience". Sony & MS are clearly diverging in their strategies going forward, and I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other. Sony's approach might be more technologically superior, while overall being more niche than MS's expansive all-inclusive approach.

We'll just have to see in a few days at E3 whether MS will tout "super-fast read speeds". Right now, I believe they will be just going with standard tech that is readily available on PC to maximise compatibility. Again, let's just wait and see.
 

TBiddy

Member
Mar 16, 2015
4,454
5,755
770
Denmark
If games can be designed around the limitations of both ecosystems (console and PC) currently, I'm certain it's also possible in the next-gen.
 

TBiddy

Member
Mar 16, 2015
4,454
5,755
770
Denmark
What "limitations" are you talking about?

The CPU in the consoles and the lack of fixed-spec in the PC world ie. Or the HDD vs SSD differences. I can't see how a new storage system in the next-gen consoles should pose an issue for the developers. They are used to handling different specifications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Insane Metal

onnextflix5

Member
Jun 6, 2019
192
475
300
What are ms thinking. launching 2 sku's has never worked. Why would anyone want too buy a next gen system that is weeker than last gen. I know it worked with xbox one s and x but they did not launch at the same time. No one will buy the weaker system. If ms had understood console gaming. They would thinking about 3 options.

1. launching at the same time as ps5 and the same price, around the same power

2. launching a year later with a lot more power then the ps5

3. launching at the same time as ps5 but with $100 cheaper if ps5 is $499.
 
Last edited:

GermanZepp

Member
Feb 15, 2017
1,226
1,811
545
The CPU in the consoles and the lack of fixed-spec in the PC world ie. Or the HDD vs SSD differences. I can't see how a new storage system in the next-gen consoles should pose an issue for the developers. They are used to handling different specifications.

CJY CJY from the info i gather here, you both guys a talking about plausible scenarios. We just have to wait until Microsoft show more info. I believe that, (as much i would love the Ps5 to have a super cool unique feature SSSD super ssd) anything Sony can pull off Microsoft technically can pull off too. So the thing is like you both suggest, what strategy this companies are going to follow. Somewhere i read that MS is going for a Netflix approach and Sony an HBO approach in terms of exclusive content, being that Sony want high production values spread out in time exclusives. While MS unifies PC and Console and throw anything they have.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: CJY and Munki

Sycomunkee

Member
Jan 21, 2019
3,293
3,865
435
Because in PC there wouldn't be an equal solution and if there is only a minority would have access to it.

For the record i don't think it will be a problem, PCs with SATA3 SSDs could just preload all assets on system DDR4. Next gen gaming PCs with 32GB+ of DDR4/5 will be more common.
Any game developed for the console requires developers to use the XDK, right? Wouldn't that allow developers to easily port from PC to Console while also using the advantages of the console? Isn't that the whole point of the XDK?

I don't know if you have seen this loading time demonstration?:


This is just an early technology demo, but from 40seconds onwards, you can see them speeding through the cityscape at an increasingly faster speed. I think the world in the demo is from Spider Man, but imagine an exclusive PS5-only Superman game where you are literally flying around Metropolis at super-sonic speeds. In this theoretical scenario, the super-fast data read speed of the PS5 will be utilised to stream data at speeds 5-10X faster that what the typical PC is capable of, or perhaps even what a high-end gaming PC is capable of.

My main point is just that Sony don't have to take PCs into consideration in designing the PS5, and while neither do MS with the NextBox, it makes sense that MS will, as they seem intent on effectively unifying and homogenising all their games and platforms into one singular "experience". Sony & MS are clearly diverging in their strategies going forward, and I'm not saying one is necessarily better than the other. Sony's approach might be more technologically superior, while overall being more niche than MS's expansive all-inclusive approach.

We'll just have to see in a few days at E3 whether MS will tout "super-fast read speeds". Right now, I believe they will be just going with standard tech that is readily available on PC to maximise compatibility. Again, let's just wait and see.

Just because Sony has a leaked demo does not mean Microsoft wont have a similar solution. Console optimizations are not uncommon especially considering that third parties may also take advantage of this on PS5 but maybe not so much on PC. I don't see something like this limiting Xbox Exclusive games just because there is a PC version. This way of thinking would be rather biased.
 
Last edited:

Journey

Banned
Aug 18, 2014
2,932
2,678
620
And a whole generation of mockery over the PS3 power disadvantage had nothing to do with that? You didn't think people would want to give Xbox fanatics a taste of their own medicine, given the circumstances?

Irrespective of power, people who bought a PS4 did so because they were confident on the quality and variety of the games, coming from the PS3, power never was the main reason.


Where did I say it was justified or not, just that it was a thing lol.
 

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
4,676
1,487
885
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think MS has matched (or even surpassed?) PlayGo with Ready to Start/Fast Start (which is also AI-driven or something like that?).
 

Ar¢tos

Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,552
6,969
740
Krynn
Any game developed for the console requires developers to use the XDK, right? Wouldn't that allow developers to easily port from PC to Console while also using the advantages of the console? Isn't that the whole point of the XDK?



Just because Sony has a leaked demo does not mean Microsoft wont have a similar solution. Console optimizations are not uncommon especially considering that third parties may also take advantage of this on PS5 but maybe not so much on PC. I don't see something like this limiting Xbox Exclusive games just because there is a PC version. This way of thinking would be rather biased.
Xbox will also use ssd. The difference might be the tech used. Sony does have a patent about a custom controller+file system, and using chips directly on the board can remove the need for a pcie bus. We know these things about Sony, but we know nothing (for know) about ms potential approach, so all we can predict for them is a normal M2 nvme using a pcie4 bus.
Its more the lack of information about next Xbox that drives these predictions, things might change when we know more, at least until Sony gives more info again. It's like a ping pong ball moving between the sides of the table...
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,980
11,559
2,000
Just because Sony has a leaked demo does not mean Microsoft wont have a similar solution. Console optimizations are not uncommon especially considering that third parties may also take advantage of this on PS5 but maybe not so much on PC. I don't see something like this limiting Xbox Exclusive games just because there is a PC version. This way of thinking would be rather biased.

It all depends what the top of MS wants for the Xbox Next and the Xbox brand going forward. We all KNOW, MS could design something similar. But does Nutella want them to is the question?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ar¢tos

Ar¢tos

Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,552
6,969
740
Krynn
It all depends what the top of MS wants for the Xbox Next and the Xbox brand going forward. We all KNOW, MS could design something similar. But does Nutella want them to is the question?


Any decision made by Nutella is a winner for me!
 

CJY

Banned
Jan 8, 2016
2,563
5,638
725
Why the long face?
You actually think I was saying that just because there's a leaked Sony video of next-gen fast loading that I was somehow suggesting that MS couldn't have this? How dense could you possibly be?
 

Sycomunkee

Member
Jan 21, 2019
3,293
3,865
435
You actually think I was saying that just because there's a leaked Sony video of next-gen fast loading that I was somehow suggesting that MS couldn't have this? How dense could you possibly be?
I was just asking, with a response such as this, I'm assuming pretty dense. You're talking about Sony not worrying about PC's but at the same time, third parties do, so will they just avoid using the new storage solution for speed gains because they also develop for PC?
 

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,980
11,559
2,000
I was just asking, with a response such as this, I'm assuming pretty dense. You're talking about Sony not worrying about PC's but at the same time, third parties do, so will they just avoid using the new storage solution for speed gains because they also develop for PC?

Yeah some probably will just skip it for that very reason, yes.
 

Sycomunkee

Member
Jan 21, 2019
3,293
3,865
435
Yeah some probably will just skip it for that very reason, yes.
Wouldn't implementing it save time during play testing and development of the PS5 version of the game? Why would they avoid it, if it's a time saver among hundreds of developers? That just defies logic to me.
 

Aceofspades

is a 9 year old console warrior
Mar 31, 2015
3,638
7,224
805
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think MS has matched (or even surpassed?) PlayGo with Ready to Start/Fast Start (which is also AI-driven or something like that?).

No they haven't, Faststart was applied to some xbox download games last year, its exactly the same principle of Playgo implemented on PS4 since 2013. In the other hand Xbox Disc based games takes way longer than PS4 to start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fake and mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,980
11,559
2,000
Wouldn't implementing it save time during play testing and development of the PS5 version of the game? Why would they avoid it, if it's a time saver among hundreds of developers? That just defies logic to me.

They'd have to code for the differences in system setup between the PS5 and many different scenarios of the PC. That cost money and it takes time.
 

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
4,676
1,487
885
No they haven't, Faststart was applied to some xbox download games last year, its exactly the same principle of Playgo implemented on PS4 since 2013. In the other hand Xbox Disc based games takes way longer than PS4 to start.

Ready to Start = XB1 PlayGo equivalent (requires manual coding/management from the programmer)

FastStart = there's no PS4 equivalent, since it uses machine learning/it's automatic
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
36,610
31,814
1,205
38
Brazil

Ready to Start = XB1 PlayGo equivalent (requires manual coding/management from the programmer)

FastStart = there's no PS4 equivalent, since it uses machine learning/it's automatic
It is the same.

The game needs to be coded/management to work.
It needs to be separated in parts (files) to download so the machine learning choose which workable part to downloads first according with how the player is playing.

I will give you an simples and hypothetical example...

A game has two patch in simple player that refer to two different locations... at middle of the first chapter you choose a path that leads you to the Mars planet while the other option lead you to the Venus planet.
The developer coded/management the Mars planet mission and the Venus planet mission as being different downloaded parts (files).
First it is downloaded the first chapter (first files) of the game and the player start to play it... when it chooses which part (files) he will got the machine learning automatically choose to download the choices next chapter based in what the player choose (Mars or Venus).

Of course you can make the things more complex.

But the ideia is the same... the game needs to be coded/management in parts (files) to be downloaded separately exactly like Ready to Start... the difference here is that the download is not done in a preset sequence but choose by machine learnings which part will be downloaded next according with the gamer's playing data.

And of course... MS is making this coded/management of the parts (files) be automatically done by the SDK.

Sony's SDK already do that (the coded/management of the parts) since 2013... PlayGo is a feature level at SDK you don't need extra code/work to make it works.

The biggest difference between MS and Sony solution is how the next parts are choose to be downloaded... Sony is in a pre-defined sequence choose but the developer while MS is using a deep learning algorithm that will choose which parts will be downloaded next based on player's data.
 
Last edited:

SonGoku

Gold Member
Aug 16, 2018
4,760
6,579
635
Wouldn't that allow developers to easily port from PC to Console while also using the advantages of the console? Isn't that the whole point of the XDK?
You mean SDK right? xdk is intels thing
Next gen consoles and PCs yes because PCs will have enough power to brute force past anything
Next gen and current gen games no, unless you likit the scpe of your game to current gen

SSD, ram and cpu just aren't things you can't downscale.
 

SonGoku

Gold Member
Aug 16, 2018
4,760
6,579
635
In this theoretical scenario, the super-fast data read speed of the PS5 will be utilised to stream data at speeds 5-10X faster that what the typical PC is capable of, or perhaps even what a high-end gaming PC is capable of.

My main point is just that Sony don't have to take PCs into consideration in designing the PS5,
PCs could just preload a shit ton of assets on system memory to achieve the same result, albeit with longer initial load times
32GB DDR4 + SATA3 SSD should be enough
 
Last edited:

mckmas8808

Ah. Peace and quiet. #ADayWithoutAWoman
May 24, 2005
45,980
11,559
2,000
PCs could just preload a shit ton of assets on system memory to achieve the same result, albeit with longer initial load times
32GB DDR4 + SATA3 SSD should be enough

But that's an expensive PC though.
 

vpance

Member
Jun 20, 2005
8,638
2,848
1,650
PCs could just preload a shit ton of assets on system memory to achieve the same result, albeit with longer initial load times
32GB DDR4 + SATA3 SSD should be enough

Wouldn't you still need to move the data to VRAM first?
 

SonGoku

Gold Member
Aug 16, 2018
4,760
6,579
635
Wouldn't you still need to move the data to VRAM first?
Sure but the transfer speed between vram and system ram is far faster than any souped up SSD Sony/MS can cook so that won't be an issue.
PCIe 3.032 GB/s
PCIe 4.064 GB/s
 
Last edited:

Negotiator

Member
Jun 28, 2011
4,676
1,487
885
Sure but the transfer speed between vram and system ram is far faster than any souped up SSD Sony/MS can cook so that won't be an issue.
PCIe 3.032 GB/s

PCIe 4.064 GB/s
Yeah, but APUs have custom, tightly-coupled buses (CPU <-> GPU).
 

Marlenus

Member
Jul 29, 2013
1,762
628
590
UK
It's probably cheaper to use a standard m.2 SSD on PCIe 4 with a custom controller to max out the bandwidth than create a custom interface.

It might even be cheaper to use an off the shelf controller and have 2 drivers in a raid0 config.
 

SonGoku

Gold Member
Aug 16, 2018
4,760
6,579
635
It's probably cheaper to use a standard m.2 SSD on PCIe 4 with a custom controller to max out the bandwidth than create a custom interface.

It might even be cheaper to use an off the shelf controller and have 2 drivers in a raid0 config.
Sony's patent seems focused on maxing out read speeds and its very custom
 
  • Like
Reactions: mckmas8808