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[HTupolev]

Polygonal foliage just isn't very viable yet.

Really depends on the game's style and the type of foliage. Even DC has plenty of non-billboard greenery. Evergreens and such are often 3D, but bushier foliage tends to be made of billboards.

(Which highlights how little some aspects of foliage authoring have changed over the years. Plenty of sixth-gen racers do things the exact same way.)

 

[VanWinkle]

It has 2D grass and the trees are standard trees as seen in normal 3D games so they do have 2D bits that form the canopy but they don't follow the camera around so they have depth.

But they just have a few 2D layers at different levels, sort of like an asterisk viewed from above. It's not really more impressive, and it looks worse than Driveclub's implementation. But that's the unfortunate reality of a game where you can drive all around the foliage, making it easy to reveal its flaws.

Anyway, even if you just compare the 2D assets, Driveclub's is far more varied, realistic, and dynamic.

Just saw this old screenshot I took, and it blows me away. Just the stuff on the ground, even disregarding the trees.

 

[Noobcraft]

^^ Right. But compared to something like Ryse I personally prefer the "3D" tree models because they have depth.

*Please don't consider it a direct comparison, I'm just saying that ideally all racers would implement foliage with volume. I think especially with VR it would be a lot more important.

** Also I want a racer using CryEngine. Possibly RyseKart. Chariot racing is a genre I'd like to see more of.

 

[benzy]

^^ Right. But compared to something like Ryse I personally prefer the "3D" tree models because they have depth.

*Please don't consider it a direct comparison, I'm just saying that ideally all racers would implement foliage with volume. I think especially with VR it would be a lot more important.

** Also I want a racer using CryEngine. Possibly RyseKart. Chariot racing is a genre I'd like to see more of.

Pretty sure those are just cross-planar 2D leaf cutouts with 3D stumps/large branches, instead of multiple cutouts that pivot like in DC on 3D stumps/branch. I don't think either one is more impressive than the other; the problem with pivoting 2D billboards is you see it pivot when you're facing it and moving around it. The problem with cross-planar cutouts is you can easily find where one 2D billboard cuts into another 2D billboard sort of like a copy and past at random angles.

Seen here on that big tree in the back. I'm not sure how Ryse does some of its other vegetation though.

There's still plenty of volume in DC's trees.

BTW, I hope GT7 completely redoes their trees on Nurburgring. It's highly outdated now with the cross-plane 2D cutouts.

 

[Tripolygon]

^^ Right. But compared to something like Ryse I personally prefer the "3D" tree models because they have depth.

*Please don't consider it a direct comparison, I'm just saying that ideally all racers would implement foliage with volume. I think especially with VR it would be a lot more important.

** Also I want a racer using CryEngine. Possibly RyseKart. Chariot racing is a genre I'd like to see more of.

Ryse is as linear as a game gets, in fact sometimes you can just push forward and let go of the analog stick and the game auto moves the character via a linear path. Ryse also has a lot of 2d trees and foliage but driveclub still does it better. I just beat Ryse on PC a few days ago. Played in 900p and scaled using in game scaler because the frame rate was shit at 1080p on my GTX 860M. Looks really good but very inconsistent. As has been shown, Horizon 2 has worst 2D foliage, Ryse is no better than Driveclub, what game are you going to bring up next?

It is stupid for devs to waste polygon budget on modeling and rendering 3d leafs hence devs use 2D foliage on 3D trunk and branches. They could use middlewares to generate them but it'll be costly to render them. These consoles are not that powerful.

Edit: Some cherry picked screenshots of Driveclub that are not mine, to show that driveclub trees and foliage do have "depth" or Evolution did a wonderful job of creating the illusion of "depth".

 

[Noobcraft]

Pretty sure those are just cross-planar 2D leaf cutouts with 3D stumps/large branches, instead of multiple cutouts that pivot like in DC on 3D stumps/branch. I don't think either one is more impressive than the other; the problem with pivoting 2D billboards is you see it pivot when you're facing it and moving around it. The problem with cross-planar cutouts is you can easily find where one 2D billboard cuts into another 2D billboard sort of like a copy and paste at random angles.

BTW, I hope GT7 completely redoes their trees on Nurburgring. It's highly outdated now with the cross-plane 2D cutouts.

Benzy I just wanted to say this is a very well written post. I would definitely like to see GT7/Forza Motorsport take a Driveclub like approach to foliage (but not crowds ). In a track based setting it makes more sense, and in motion it's very convincing in those settings. In an open world setting though it isn't appropriate though as the illusion falls apart.

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

Here's a shot I took of Drveclub

 

[ShamePain]

Benzy I just wanted to say this is a very well written post. I would definitely like to see GT7/Forza Motorsport take a Driveclub like approach to foliage (but not crowds ). In a track based setting it makes more sense, and in motion it's very convincing in those settings. In an open world setting though it isn't appropriate though as the illusion falls apart.

The nurburgring in Forza 5 uses 2D trees that fade in and fade out based on your movement. It's noticeable at slow speeds but in general you won't see it. At least it's better than their trees at Spa, godawful crap that is.

 

[vio]

Driveclub has best vegetation by far and it is a racing game. Racing game, think about it.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

Driveclub looks beautiful. I always have to keep in mind that it's 30 fps on a linear track when comparing it to PCARS and FORZA 5 which are 60 fps. I wonder how much more juice TURN10 could squeeze out of Forza if they only had to generate half the frames.

PCARS is a mix as it's linear and tries to hit 60 fps but doesn't always achieve it. It's impressive what they were able to put together for a game that had to be Kickstarted! All three games are great fun. At this stage DriveClub's lighting is god tier and comes at the expense of frames. The delay did them a world of good.

Driveclub doesn't drop a single frame under 30 in heavy weather, PC drops to 30 in the same conditions but is unlocked. I wouldn't be surprised if they both run at the same kinda rate.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Driveclub doesn't drop a single frame under 30 in heavy weather, PC drops to 30 in the same conditions but is unlocked. I wouldn't be surprised if they both run at the same kinda rate.

This.
Project Cars on Ps4 barely holds itself above 30FPS under taxing conditions, on XboxOne it even drops below 30FPS.
Driveclub never drops a frame, so even under the heaviest conditions it has to be a bit above 30 at all time. I could easily see this running close to 60FPS when its not raining or when there are no other cars on track.
Would be interesting to see it unlocked.

 

[icecold1983]

i dont think a situation has been found where driveclub ever drops a single frame during gameplay.

 

[flipswitch]

i dont think a situation has been found where driveclub ever drops a single frame during gameplay.

If you look at DF's analyst you're right, solid 30fps. It's remarkable that even with the weather system enabled there has been zero decrease in peformance, and its weather system isn't just wet roads and drizzle, it's trying to replicate everything.

 

[Dictator93]

Pretty sure those are just cross-planar 2D leaf cutouts with 3D stumps/large branches, instead of multiple cutouts that pivot like in DC on 3D stumps/branch. I don't think either one is more impressive than the other; the problem with pivoting 2D billboards is you see it pivot when you're facing it and moving around it. The problem with cross-planar cutouts is you can easily find where one 2D billboard cuts into another 2D billboard sort of like a copy and past at random angles.

Seen here on that big tree in the back. I'm not sure how Ryse does some of its other vegetation though..

Ryse does not use 3d pivoting sprites for vegetation. That would preclude it having the physical interaction it has.

 

[benzy]

Ryse does not use 3d pivoting sprites for vegetation. That would preclude it having the physical interaction it has.

I didn't say it did?

BTW, I have an old photo of GT5's smoke up close that you wanted to see. The alpha particles in GT5 is lower-res than it is in GT6 so the car ends up getting jagged edges on parts where it's in front of the smoke.

gt5

gt6

 

[GoonerTRON]

Yeah, the trees in Forza5/Horizon2 are absolutely fucking awful. For those with open world excuse look at trees in GTA V, it's infinitely better. In Forza it's basically X-trees not far from what we've seen in the ps2 days.

Hard to notice when you are flying past them. Plus the trees you are talking about are the ones you can run over in fields. There are proper big stump trees as well.

 

[Korezo]

Is GT6 graphically superior to GT5? I remember I liked 5 better especially in cockpit view and rain.

 

[Stacey]

Is GT6 graphically superior to GT5? I remember I liked 5 better especially in cockpit view and rain.

Graphically superior in every way but shadows.

The PS3 was running on fumes when they pushed GT6 out the door.

That game really is a technical marvel. actually being able to compare a ps3 game (GT6) with a ps4 game (PCars) and in most areas being of the same (or even better) quality is astounding.

 

[TheAdmiester]

That game really is a technical marvel. actually being able to compare a ps3 game (GT6) with a ps4 game (PCars) and in most areas being of the same (or even better) quality is astounding.

To be fair, it's easier for that to be the case when one company is a first party dev with a massive budget working exclusively on one set of hardware, and the other is a third party dev with a crowdfunded budget developing for multiple platforms (and even multiple gens with the Wii U version).

 

[Windom Earle]

I think Project Cars has the best looking (not talking about accuracy) "Ring" so far, but sadly it still has 2d trees as well.

 

[Wax Free Vanilla]

Is GT6 graphically superior to GT5? I remember I liked 5 better especially in cockpit view and rain.

GT5: Prologue > GT5 > GT6

 

[TheAdmiester]

I think Project Cars has the best looking (not talking about accuracy) "Ring" so far, but sadly it still has 2d trees as well.

I honestly think Forza 5's is best, even disregarding the fact that it's also most accurate.

The foliage is thick, and the graffiti on the track is clear and, from what I can tell, is "all there" instead of having sparse coverage. Having it all there gives a better look to it, because you're always driving over a unique texture if that makes sense.

 

[Windom Earle]

I honestly think Forza 5's is best, even disregarding the fact that it's also most accurate.

The foliage is thick, and the graffiti on the track is clear and, from what I can tell, is "all there" instead of having sparse coverage. Having it all there gives a better look to it, because you're always driving over a unique texture if that makes sense.

Forza's ring has never been very good and can in no way compete with AC's laser scanned version. It is easily the best.

Graphics wise I also disagree.

 

[TheMAK]

Forza's ring has never been very good and can in no way compete with AC's laser scanned version. It is easily the best.

Graphics wise I also disagree.

Forza 5's rings brand new and laser-scanned... so it's as accurate as it gets...

 

[Noobcraft]

Forza's ring has never been very good and can in no way compete with AC's laser scanned version. It is easily the best.

Graphics wise I also disagree.

It's already been said but yeah Forza 5 has a fully laser scanned Nurburgring which is monumentally better than it was in previous entries. As far as graphics go it's a mix. The amount of on track details/graffiti is pretty awesome, but the trees and other details aren't as great.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Forza's ring has never been very good and can in no way compete with AC's laser scanned version. It is easily the best.

Forza's was the first ever laser scanning of the Nurburgring, so it's almost 100% accurate. It's also possible (but I'm just assuming) that AC's might've been a licencing of that scan. Probably not the case though.

 

[Yiazmat]

Forza 5's rings brand new and laser-scanned... so it's as accurate as it gets...

But you do know that no one actually puts the laser scanned data in the game right? The artists still have to model the whole track and try to match it to the scanned data. So that's still prone to inaccuracies.

For instance, everyone but Forza seems to get this tree (which is used as a breaking point) right:

It's something that has also been pointed out in this other video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9tEbNaHjbI&feature=youtu.be&t=2m6s

And at 2:15 one of them got the position of the curb wrong.

 

[Windom Earle]

Forza has a history of not being very accurate in modelling, so I have my doubt, laser scanned or not.

 

[etta]

I honestly think Forza 5's is best, even disregarding the fact that it's also most accurate.

The foliage is thick, and the graffiti on the track is clear and, from what I can tell, is "all there" instead of having sparse coverage. Having it all there gives a better look to it, because you're always driving over a unique texture if that makes sense.

I concur. It's my favorite, all the small details are there.

Hard to notice when you are flying past them. Plus the trees you are talking about are the ones you can run over in fields. There are proper big stump trees as well.

Holy shit, this looks amazing. Is that Storm Island? They made the rain more aggressive?

 

[pixelation]

Is GT6 graphically superior to GT5? I remember I liked 5 better especially in cockpit view and rain.

IMHO GT5 looks way better than GT6...

 

[Insane Metal]

GT5: Prologue > GT5 > GT6

This right here.

Seriously, I remember playing GT5P and going nuts with how good the game looked and ran. Then I played GT5 as soon as it launched and was surprised with the slowdowns and downgrades here and there. I haven't played GT6, but I saw my friends playing and there's even more slowdowns. Not to the point of making it unplayable, but still.

 

[crazysapertonight]

Wow! You want to say, this all realtime? Or this is photomod, that makey foliage much better than when you actually playing? Your shots looks really amazing


On this shots foliage does not look so good...

 

[le-seb]

Wow! You want to say, this all realtime? Or this is photomod, that makey foliage much better than when you actually playing? Your shots looks really amazing

Check by yourself, as benzy has taken a bunch of screenshots showing the foliage before there was even a photomode implemented in game.

 

[nib95]

Wow! You want to say, this all realtime? Or this is photomod, that makey foliage much better than when you actually playing? Your shots looks really amazing


On this shots foliage does not look so good...

Those are horribly compressed, completely unflattering shots. Here's some gameplay shots that are a better representation of what you can expect in the game. In all honestly, the foliage in DC completely outclasses that in any other racer, even though clever tricks are used just as in every other game, and even though other racers also feature examples of good foliage.

 

[benzy]

Wow! You want to say, this all realtime? Or this is photomod, that makey foliage much better than when you actually playing? Your shots looks really amazing


On this shots foliage does not look so good...

 

[Korezo]

GT5: Prologue > GT5 > GT6

IMHO GT5 looks way better than GT6...

This right here.

Seriously, I remember playing GT5P and going nuts with how good the game looked and ran. Then I played GT5 as soon as it launched and was surprised with the slowdowns and downgrades here and there. I haven't played GT6, but I saw my friends playing and there's even more slowdowns. Not to the point of making it unplayable, but still.

Yea, I felt this way also. Felt like image quality dropped with each one, with GT6 looking very bad to me alot of the times.

 

[TheAdmiester]

Yea, I felt this way also. Felt like image quality dropped with each one, with GT6 looking very bad to me alot of the times.

Technically GT6 should have the best IQ. GT5 renders at 1280x1080, GT6 renders at 1440x1080.

Holy shit, this looks amazing. Is that Storm Island? They made the rain more aggressive?

They did indeed, the name certainly isn't lying.

 

[benzy]

Technically GT6 should have the best IQ. GT5 renders at 1280x1080, GT6 renders at 1440x1080.

Could be due to the differences in AA used.

GTP: 1280x1080 (2xAA)
GT5: 1280x1080 (QAA)
GT6; 1440x1080 (MLAA)

GT5 was a lot cleaner and crisp than GT6 in 720p though. GT6 was almost unplayable at that resolution for me, it was really muddy. GT5 720p had 4xMSAA vs MLAA in GT6 720p.

 

[NullPointer]

Yea, I felt this way also. Felt like image quality dropped with each one, with GT6 looking very bad to me alot of the times.

At the very least GT5 performed better for me so I prefer it for those reasons. The quicker menus and transitions in GT6 were a godsend though, and I loved the new tracks. I just left it for Forza 5 because of the dithering and framerate and audio and AI issues.

Project Cars looks amazing to me from all the footage I've seen, but it sounds like a PC game making its debut on the consoles (reminds me of Warframe's console debut), and thus rough around the edges. If SMS supports the console versions as top tier along with PC I'll jump in once we're a few patches in.

 

[GoonerTRON]

Driveclub looks nothing like these photomode pics being posted. In realtime there is quite a bit of aliasing. I was a bit disapointed when I played it for the first time, it looks great but nothing like photomode.

 

[Y2Kev]

I remember GT5P tearing like crazy. I did love that incredibly retro sounding Starting Grid lineup music though. BOO BOO BOO BOO BA BOO BOO BOO BOO *guitar tweaks*

 

[Stillmatic]

Driveclub looks nothing like these photomode pics being posted. In realtime there is quite a bit of aliasing. I was a bit disapointed when I played it for the first time, it looks great but nothing like photomode.

It pretty much looks exactly like photomode other than aliasing.

 

[VanWinkle]

Driveclub looks nothing like these photomode pics being posted. In realtime there is quite a bit of aliasing. I was a bit disapointed when I played it for the first time, it looks great but nothing like photomode.

Huh? Other than the aliasing, it essentially looks exactly like photomode. I find the wording "nothing like" to be really hyperbolic.

 

[DD]

Sorry guys, I love DC, but the gameplay doesn't look like in the Photomode. It doesn't look so different though, when things are in movement. But the photomode adds a much better IQ and LOD increase. But it's still the best looking racing game out there until today, so...

 

[benzy]

 

[icecold1983]

Sorry guys, I love DC, but the gameplay doesn't look like in the Photomode. It doesn't look so different though, when things are in movement. But the photomode adds a much better IQ and LOD increase. But it's still the best looking racing game out there until today, so...

Lod increase? Not if youre playing time trial

 

[ShamePain]

I remember GT5P tearing like crazy. I did love that incredibly retro sounding Starting Grid lineup music though. BOO BOO BOO BOO BA BOO BOO BOO BOO *guitar tweaks*

Your memory is fuzzy, GT5P has the most stable framerate of all GTs on PS3, no tearing at all. I played it just recently.

 

[ShamePain]

Just another proof that GT7 will annihilate every other racer out there when it comes out.

 

[icecold1983]

beating pcars and forza 5 isnt an accomplishment.

 

[BuffetChamp]

beating pcars and forza 5 isnt an accomplishment.

Well its nice to know you're the authority on these things.