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[Acosta]

He's insane. 3D Metroid makes the Metroid universe feel so much more immersive.

What is exactly the "Metroid Universe"?, the game was always about Samus alone exploring a mysterious planet in the most isolated way possible, and 2D Metroids capture that in a more effective way than anything achieved with 3D.

Metroid didn´t need visors, scannings and all that stuff for doing what it did, and certainly it didn´t need 3D.

Retro did a fantastic work translating all that to 3D, but they just adapted it to a new dimension, they didn´t improve the formula at all.

 

[USD]

It sounds like his struggles with Prime 3 stem his expectations regarding 3D games and FPS, especially with regards to backtracking. Also some issues with the controls because of the Wii's limited button layout. I do agree to some extent with backtracking, but it didn't bother me much.

 

[jjasper]

I don't really agree with him. I used to think I liked Super better but when I replayed it on VC right after playing Prime I gotta go with liking Prime 1 better so I think it made a great jump to 3D (as good as Mario 64). I just don't think the sequels are "Metroid" games even though Prime 3 kinda takes Fusion and expands on its idea.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

"moron"?

I´ll leave without commentary, you won´t probably stay long. Meanwhile, start to speak as a mature being.

oh, my mistake. let me appropriately respond gaf style:

-"bafoon.gif"
- :lol
- "overreaction total"

which one of these "mature" choices would you prefer.
oh almost forgot,

 

[The Faceless Master]

i agree with N'Gai

give me metroid dread

 

[jarrod]

So basically N'gai finds backtracking too difficult?

To be fair, Prime makes it far more tedious than RD1's efforts.

LOL! I agree with jarrod in a Nintendo thread. *high-five* I guess this makes up for your phantom defense of Mash Brothers. PEACE.

Lolz... it's you, me, drohne, Dragona and ani versus the world.

PS: I don't really like Smash Bros... but it's still a fighter. :lol

 

[Acosta]

Does it look like I'm joking? Damn son I fucking busted nut the first time I realized I was platforming, in a first person game, and it felt right. I wasn't missing jumps because the movement speed was all cracked out or slippery like in first person shooters and rpgs.

Game is a damn revelation. It stands alongside RE4 as the only genuine reasons to own a Gamecube.

Metroid Prime did jumps right, yes, much better than any 3D game had done before, yes.

But saying first person jumping is better than 2D platforming is just crazy.

 

[plagiarize]

3D platforming > 2D platforming?

You must be joking.

you must not have played the prime games. he's only talking about the platforming in the 2d metroids vs the platforming in the 3d metroids, and he's absolutely right.

n'gai's argument doesn't make much sense to me. it's one thing to say 'this game is amazing, but it just doesn't feel like metroid to me' but it's another to say 'i can't play this game because it doesn't feel like metroid to me'.

a bit of aside, but since it interests me, i don't agree with him on the morality in bioshock either. if you punish the person who is good, you make it less fun for them... and you forget that you're making a game.

black and white punished the people that were good by making things harder for them and it just made the game crap for anyone who like myself wanted to be a good god.

if you do that, then it stops being a moral choice for me. reward now vs reward later is to me enough of a moral choice, and it stops the game being *less* fun for people playing the good route.

 

[g23]

Bail out..!

 

[stephentotilo]

ahh yes. now you all know what I've been going through. For two weeks I've been trying to convince N'Gai to get through this game for our exchange. and then he drops that bomb on me in the most recent letter. my response, on his site and mine, will be published in the morning

Rest assured, though, that he is wrong. As I will explain...

Here's some of tomorrow's response:

To: N'Gai Croal
Fr: Stephen Totilo
Date: September 18, 2007
Re: You May Stop Now

N'Gai,

If you're only going to complete "Metroid Prime 3" with the help of a GameFAQ, then just stop. Please.

If "'Metroid' is a franchise that should never have made the jump from 2-D third-person to 3-D first-person," then what's wrong with me for enjoying it? Am I enjoying an inferior "Metroid" game? Am I enjoying a game that isn't a "Metroid" game at all?

And should they not have turned "Mario" into a 3D franchise either? Because, you know, it was a lot easier to move around in the Mushroom Kingdom when there were only two dimensions to worry about.

As wrongheaded as your absolutist conclusion is -- perhaps you meant to say that the game just wasn't your taste, not that it shouldn't exist -- you have managed to stumble, without the help of an arrow or the cue of enemies down the corridor, into a good point. That point is that there is still a great problem in gaming, a schism, even. There was the 2D era and then the 3D one. Not every game series -- and not every gamer -- has made the leap successfully, for better or worse. In the decade since "Super Mario 64," how many other platformers have been as good as their 2D predecessors? ("Sonic," anyone?) "Zelda" made the leap well, right "Link to the Past" fans? How's "Tetris" handling that 2D-3D transition? Other than "Tetrisphere," it ignored it. "Castlevania" still hasn't made a successful jump to 3D, and maybe it never will. Maybe it too is a "franchise that should never have made the jump."

What's it like to watch a great 2D game series go to 3D, have the masses praise it, and yet see it abandon key aspects in the process? I'm trying to put myself in your shoes which don't feel altogether unfamiliar. Do we praise this situation or shake our heads? Did no one notice what happened to the "Mario" platforming series? Should anyone mind? None of the three 3D "Mario" games I've played ("64," Sunshine," or preview versions of "Galaxy") feels as combative as the old 2D games. This <i>has</i> bugged me. In the "Mario" side-scrollers I was always wading in enemies. I could jump from the top of one enemy to the next, knock down rows of them with Koopa shells, and blitz through a whole bunch while invincible with star power. "Mario" 3D games are desolate by comparison. There are barely any Goombas and Koopas to fight. How many do you get on the screen at once? How many do you see in the average game minute? Very few. I've got to imagine there's an M'Gai Broal out there who just can't stand the violence done to his beloved "Mario" 2D games by bringing them into 3D. This gamer may think that the 3D "Mario" games are sacrilege and must not exist. He may be firing up his time machine right now in the hopes of changing gaming history. Others, though, might not mind the changes required of the transition to 3D, because they think enough of the essence is still there.

So that's where you and I part. I've played all three "Metroid Prime 3" games to completion, as I have all the 2D "Metroid"s except for the Game Boy one. The 3D games hold up their end. Whatever I got from the 2D games -- spooky atmosphere, sense of wonder, fun power-ups and progression, engaging detective-work -- are in the "Prime"s too.

It goes on for a bit more. Then he gets the last word.

Glad this got you guys talking!

-Stephen

 

[Acosta]

To be fair, Prime makes it far more tedious than RD1's efforts.



Lolz... it's you, me, drohne, Dragona and ani versus the world.

PS: I don't really like Smash Bros... but it's still a fighter. :lol

Hey, what about me?

 

[Pimpwerx]

Here's why I will always be down on Prime. It is an FPS, no? Anyone saying otherwise is in a severe state of denial. Now, accepting that it's a FPS, how do you rate it amongst the best offerings in that genre last gen? If Prime was a PC game, it would be thrashed coming and going. It is a piece of shit compared to just about any PC FPS released in the last five years. There are FPSes with sci-fi themes that are way better than Prime. On the Xbox, it wouldn't even show in the Top10 in it's own genre. On the PS2, it would have a better time, just b/c the genre isn't well-supported. But dare I say, even a title like Killzone might deserve a vote over Prime.

Only on the severely game-starved Gamecube does Prime pass as a great game. It's the best FPS I own on the Cube. Of course, it's the only FPS I own on the Cube. Let's not label a turd a daisy just b/c the rest of the flowers have wilted away. PEACE.

 

[Creamium]

Nooo not this again we just had one of these

Now if you'll excuse I'll be leaving this to-be trainwreck to go watch the Heroes s1 finale

Here's why I will always be down on Prime. It is an FPS, no? Anyone saying otherwise is in a severe state of denial. Now, accepting that it's a FPS, how do you rate it amongst the best offerings in that genre last gen? If Prime was a PC game, it would be thrashed coming and going. It is a piece of shit compared to just about any PC FPS released in the last five years. There are FPSes with sci-fi themes that are way better than Prime. On the Xbox, it wouldn't even show in the Top10 in it's own genre. On the PS2, it would have a better time, just b/c the genre isn't well-supported. But dare I say, even a title like Killzone might deserve a vote over Prime.

Only on the severely game-starved Gamecube does Prime pass as a great game. It's the best FPS I own on the Cube. Of course, it's the only FPS I own on the Cube. Let's not label a turd a daisy just b/c the rest of the flowers have wilted away. PEACE.

... but I could not stop my eyes from reading this. September stupidity month at GAF confirmed

 

[tha_con]

Metriod in 3D played on a 2D plane (think New Super Mario Bro's) would be full of win.

If only Nintendo saw it that way.

 

[Crushed]

This thread has reminded me why I put pimpwerx on my ignore list.

 

[mollipen]

Metroid Prime felt more like Metroid than any of the "real" games ever have. I mean, I love the 2D Metroids, but Metroid is about explorating, and a great 2D exploration game will never, ever, EVER beat a good-to-great 3D explorating game. The feeling of wonder and mystery of exploring an alien world that can be produced in 3D just can't be done in 2D, simple as that.

What is exactly the "Metroid Universe"?, the game was always about Samus alone exploring a mysterious planet in the most isolated way possible, and 2D Metroids capture that in a more effective way than anything achieved with 3D.

2D Metroids captured the feel of exploring a painting of an alien world. Again, seriously, I love the 2D, I used to fight for it with all of my might, but it just totally fails at a lot of jobs that 3D can do far better. In the Metroid Prime games, those places exist, I can walk around a rock, around a plant, I can look at an ancient statue from all angles, I can go under/over/around it in every way, so on and so on. Those places exist. 2D simply can't capture that feeling of actually being in an alien world, of being lost in this gigantic cavern or this small waterway or whatever else. It's always a place made of flat, two-dimentional sprites, and no level of suspension of disbelief can get over that fact.

 

[Kintaro]

I agree. I have no doubt the Prime series is awesome (1st one was), but I just was not into it at all and it felt generic to me. 2D only.

 

[Joei]

This guy. . . . he's my kind of guy.

 

[Acosta]

you must not have played the prime games. he's only talking about the platforming in the 2d metroids vs the platforming in the 3d metroids, and he's absolutely right.

n'gai's argument doesn't make much sense to me. it's one thing to say 'this game is amazing, but it just doesn't feel like metroid to me' but it's another to say 'i can't play this game because it doesn't feel like metroid to me'.

a bit of aside, but since it interests me, i don't agree with him on the morality in bioshock either. if you punish the person who is good, you make it less fun for them... and you forget that you're making a game.

black and white punished the people that were good by making things harder for them and it just made the game crap for anyone who like myself wanted to be a good god.

if you do that, then it stops being a moral choice for me. reward now vs reward later is to me enough of a moral choice, and it stops the game being *less* fun for people playing the good route.

:lol

I played Metroid Prime way before you did at least you are from Retro or an Nintendo employee.

Yes, I played it, a lot, and loved it. But saying the platforming in Prime is superior to the platforming of Super Metroid, is simply wrong.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Well, with 3 installments I guess Prime is actually THE definition of Metroid nowadays, sorry.

And hey I like 2D Metroid, but you gotta move with the times. Metroid 1 and 2 were "eeeh" Super was great and then the franchise died, rebooted even and you all have to thank Prime for that.

On N'Gai's case, it sounds a lot like when Kojima played Smash Bros Melee and couldnt bring himself to punch Mario, because he loved him too much.

 

[madara]

Rest assured, though, that he is wrong. As I will explain...
-Stephen

More videos, less flash Mr MTV!
:lol

 

[Crushed]

Seriously plagiarize, did you not notice the mastery and values in its platforming?

 

[Lostconfused]

a bit of aside, but since it interests me, i don't agree with him on the morality in bioshock either. if you punish the person who is good, you make it less fun for them... and you forget that you're making a game.

black and white punished the people that were good by making things harder for them and it just made the game crap for anyone who like myself wanted to be a good god.

if you do that, then it stops being a moral choice for me. reward now vs reward later is to me enough of a moral choice, and it stops the game being *less* fun for people playing the good route.

Some might say its about the experience. Because you are certainly watering down the weight of the moral choices if you make the consequences insignificant.

 

[The Jer]

I saw this backfire coming a mile away. GAF hates good games.

I don't think it's a matter of hating good games.
The Prime games may be fantastic, but IPs and names should have a limit on how much they can be whored.
Particularly when the IP no longer represents the genre from which it came.

Prime may be great; but it's not metroid.
The game's name gives a false representation of what the game will be.
Prime should have been a new IP.

 

[jarrod]

Anyone else want an SPD/EAD made, 3rd person, cell shaded 3D Metroid?

 

[Pimpwerx]

This thread has reminded me why I put pimpwerx on my ignore list.

I've been ignored by more important people than you, junior. Enjoy your stay. PEACE.

 

[SantaC]

Anyone else want an SPD/EAD made, 3rd person, cell shaded 3D Metroid?

gritty cell shaded in that case.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Maybe he mistyped "Castlevania".

 

[Crushed]

Anyone else want an SPD/EAD made, 3rd person, cell shaded 3D Metroid?

What is this obsession with third-person 3D Metroid? A camera angle change to the outside of the armor is not suddenly going to make it "troo Metroid!1"

 

[jarrod]

gritty cell shaded in that case.

I was thinking more comicbooky... like RD1's old Super Metroid art.

 

[Oblivion]

Lolz... it's you, me, drohne, Dragona and ani versus the world.

Don't forget me! Though I probably don't like for reasons different than some of the rest of ye.

 

[Lostconfused]

I've been ignored by more important people than you, junior. Enjoy your stay. PEACE.

Shows that he made the right choice.

 

[Evlar]

I don't think it's a matter of hating good games.
The Prime games may be fantastic, but IPs and names should have a limit on how much they can be whored.
Particularly when the IP no longer represents the genre from which it came.

Prime may be great; but it's not metroid.
The game's name gives a false representation of what the game will be.
Prime should have been a new IP.

I'm trying to imagine the response to a game that included a female bounty hunter with an armored suit, a gun-arm with infinite blaster-type shots, shielded doors, missiles, and the ability to turn into a bomb-dropping ball exploring a vast, maze-like alien planet with collectible suit upgrades and considerable exploration and backtracking... but without the Metroid name.

 

[Jokeropia]

I agree with Draft, this is crazy talk. Metroid Prime is a perfect adaptation of Metroid to 3D and probably the best game of the last generation. It's to Super Metroid what Ocarina of Time is to Link to the Past, an even better successor to a 2D masterpiece.

Here's why I will always be down on Prime. It is an FPS, no? Anyone saying otherwise is in a severe state of denial. Now, accepting that it's a FPS, how do you rate it amongst the best offerings in that genre last gen? If Prime was a PC game, it would be thrashed coming and going. It is a piece of shit compared to just about any PC FPS released in the last five years. There are FPSes with sci-fi themes that are way better than Prime. On the Xbox, it wouldn't even show in the Top10 in it's own genre. On the PS2, it would have a better time, just b/c the genre isn't well-supported. But dare I say, even a title like Killzone might deserve a vote over Prime.

Only on the severely game-starved Gamecube does Prime pass as a great game. It's the best FPS I own on the Cube. Of course, it's the only FPS I own on the Cube. Let's not label a turd a daisy just b/c the rest of the flowers have wilted away. PEACE.

Inane drivel. Prime is no more an FPS than Super Metroid is a side-scrolling shooter like Mega Man. Maybe you have a really lose definition of the term (which would cause trouble with games like Oblivion) but forcing such a label on it and then hating it for being too different from actual FPSs is nonsensical.

You also need to learn that your opinion is not fact and trying to rationalize why other people like the game while you don't makes you look like an ass.

 

[Ranger X]

Anyone else want an SPD/EAD made, 3rd person, cell shaded 3D Metroid?

Hi! How are you?

(doesn't need to be cell shaded well as long the art feels right. BRING THIRD PERSON GOD DAMNIT)

 

[Acosta]

Metroid Prime felt more like Metroid than any of the "real" games ever have. I mean, I love the 2D Metroids, but Metroid is about explorating, and a great 2D exploration game will never, ever, EVER beat a good-to-great 3D explorating game. The feeling of wonder and mystery of exploring an alien world that can be produced in 3D just can't be done in 2D, simple as that.

I disagree, 2D gaming was not about exploring, I doubt anybody thought that way. 2D was about conquering, about making a damned hard and intricate place and say the player "take this". And if the scenario was interesting, you felt you was "discovering" something, but it was secundary.

Of course, Metroid Prime has a fantastic element of exploration, one of the highlights of the game, but I doubt that was the focus on 2D ones (it wasn´t for me).

 

[Version 3.0]

This invalidates every opinion he's ever had, or will ever have.

Being so incredibly wrong about something actually bends probability and reality so that you become wrong about everything.


Reading GAF, you'd think everybody hates Prime, but that's just because of a few whining losers / trolls (some of whom are admins--see my tag).

 

[Oblivion]

Anyone else want an SPD/EAD made, 3rd person, cell shaded 3D Metroid?

I agree on the first 2 perhaps, but why Cel shaded? Graphics seem fine the way they is.

What is this obsession with third-person 3D Metroid? A camera angle change to the outside of the armor is not suddenly going to make it "troo Metroid!1"

No, but it'll give those of us who can't play in First person view a chance to play.

 

[jarrod]

What is this obsession with third-person 3D Metroid? A camera angle change to the outside of the armor is not suddenly going to make it "troo Metroid!1"

No, it'd need the movement/inertia backed mechanics, proper momentum based pacing and vertical world design to become "troo Metroid!1". Thank the gods Turok Prime's done with though, maybe now we'll see the real deal...

 

[Joe Molotov]

Here's why I will always be down on Prime. It is an FPS, no? Anyone saying otherwise is in a severe state of denial. Now, accepting that it's a FPS, how do you rate it amongst the best offerings in that genre last gen? If Prime was a PC game, it would be thrashed coming and going. It is a piece of shit compared to just about any PC FPS released in the last five years. There are FPSes with sci-fi themes that are way better than Prime. On the Xbox, it wouldn't even show in the Top10 in it's own genre. On the PS2, it would have a better time, just b/c the genre isn't well-supported. But dare I say, even a title like Killzone might deserve a vote over Prime.

Only on the severely game-starved Gamecube does Prime pass as a great game. It's the best FPS I own on the Cube. Of course, it's the only FPS I own on the Cube. Let's not label a turd a daisy just b/c the rest of the flowers have wilted away. PEACE.

Nice attempt, but no. If anything, the fact that it was on the GameCube holds it back more than anything. If it was on the XBOX or PC, people like you would jizzing all over it like it was second-coming of System Shock.

 

[Crushed]

No, it's need the movement/inertia backed mechanics, proper momentum based pacing and vertical world design to become "troo Metroid!1". Thank god's Turok Prime's done with though, maybe now we'll see the real deal...

sonicphysicsgraph.png

 

[Version 3.0]

Maybe he mistyped "Castlevania".

:lol

 

[Gnar Kill]

This will be a very civil and productive thread full of objective and logical reasoning.

haha, you are awesome.

 

[Enk]

The old school gamer in me agrees wholeheartedly, but I really liked the original Prime (and to a lesser extent, the sequels). Metroid was essentially a side scrolling Zelda with beams and missiles, and like Zelda you can always create refreshing experiences by the items you get in your arsenal. The problem Metroid has had recently is that they're still stuck in the Super Metroid arsenal mode.

Look at Minish Cap, there's alot of creative items in the game which distinctly separates it from the others in the series. Metroid Fusion/Zero Mission in the other hand (while awesome) still has the basic setup as Super Metroid. My opinion is since they are now finished with Prime, go back to the roots and find new ways to improve it. Get wild with the upgrades and base your gameplay elements around them. If New Super Mario Bros. has proven anything it's that the casual gamers are the same type of gamers that bought all those "casual" 2d games back in the NES days.

Sure a 2d Metroid game won't sell as much as New Super Mario Bros. but a 2d game is less scary for a casual to pick up than a 3d game. So there you will be getting both the rabid hardcore and some new casual gamers too.

 

[Hairtux]

Wait a minute. Who is this N'Gai thing and why does he matter? Is he just a Dvorak of the gaming world or something?

 

[Stormbringer]

Prime is a side series

It's STILL not put on the side enough. I mean, clearly it should have been called "Adventure of Samus Blowing Up Shit In Outer Space - The Not Actually METROID Edition" and NOT, deceptively, "METROID Prime". I mean, for GOD'S SAKE, WILL SOMEONE THINK OF THE CANON ?!

 

[Pachinko]

I agree to a point but honestly , would he rather have an endless torrent of super metroid rehashes like castlevania became after symphony of the night was released ? I love super metroid , zero mission and fusion were also quite good. I happen to really dislike metroid prime 1 , skipped 2 because of my hatred for 1 but I loved prime 3. To say they shouldn't have been made period goes a bit far.

 

[Acosta]

Well, with 3 installments I guess Prime is actually THE definition of Metroid nowadays, sorry.

And hey I like 2D Metroid, but you gotta move with the times. Metroid 1 and 2 were "eeeh" Super was great and then the franchise died, rebooted even and you all have to thank Prime for that.

On N'Gai's case, it sounds a lot like when Kojima played Smash Bros Melee and couldnt bring himself to punch Mario, because he loved him too much.

There are still more 2D Metroid games.

As I said, between Metroid Prime, and nothing, I prefer Metroid Prime as it was a fantastic game. But from a pure gameplay viewpoint, it didn´t need 3D and it didn´t make it better, it made it different, but not better.

Other thing is that from a commercial viewpoint, it was 3D or nothing. Fair enough, but in a magical world of fairies and unicorns, where games are developed for pleasure and without caring about looking "dated" or not being hits at shops, Metroid could have been a 2D game without problem.

 

[madara]

This invalidates every opinion he's ever had, or will ever have.

Being so incredibly wrong about something actually bends probability and reality so that you become wrong about everything.


Reading GAF, you'd think everybody hates Prime, but that's just because of a few whining losers / trolls (some of whom are admins--see my tag).

Dude, its not that big of deal. So what if people find that they long for good 2D Metroid? Find more pleasure or are prone to ponder what a 2D console Metroid with some good resources would be like again. We dont necessarily need to pit the two as enemies.

 

[rollingstart]

What is this obsession with third-person 3D Metroid? A camera angle change to the outside of the armor is not suddenly going to make it "troo Metroid!1"

I dont feel like drawing a picture to explain why third person shooters work much better on the Wii than first is why a third person metroid would work better than the first person ones.

but I guess quick way to understand would be to hold you hand infront of you and pretend its a gun and try to see down the sights, now see the range in which you can movie your arm and see clearly where you are pointing without turning your head, it should be in a box or circle shape and things only directly infront of you. That is why third person works better.