Support NeoGAF

[KAL2006]

Considering 'HD' games often fit on ~7GB of space, or whatever it is on 360, I dunno how big an issue there'd be there. There are a lot of offsets to consider also that ought to mitigate things to one degree or another - videos will be half (or a quarter) the size they are on PS3 or 360, in-game assets will be pared back out of processing constraints elsewhere, audio files can presumably be pared back an awful lot given the audio environment on a handheld vs a home machine. And on top of that, they shouldn't need to use any file replication or worry about laying out files in a particular way to minimise access/seek time - things that sometimes limit 'real' usable space on a DVD. While I'd hesitate to say that there'd never be a problem, this isn't really a comparison we can make apples-to-apples. We'll have to wait and see if devs working in a multiplatform context start complaining about it.

That said, though, I think it's pretty obvious that economy rather than technology is what's limiting game card size to 4GB. And economics will change over time. In a couple of years 8GB cards might be as cheap as 4GBs are now, and so then may be feasible for publishers. There's no point in offering 8GB now just because it's technically possible if they're going to cost an arm and a leg, which they would do, in a world where some game media costs cents. 2 and 4GB cards are probably already more expensive than DVDs or Blu-ray.

Many games I have installed onto the 360 hardrive are not even 7GB. Most are around 3-6GB

EDIT: just checked, these are the currently the games install on my brothers 360 HDD
2.9GB - Marvel VS Capcom 3
4.7 - Bioshock
6.6 - Halo Reach

 

[diffusionx]

Many games I have installed onto the 360 hardrive are not even 7GB. Most are around 3-6GB

EDIT: just checked, these are the currently the games install on my brothers 360 HDD
2.9GB - Marvel VS Capcom 3
4.7 - Bioshock
6.6 - Halo Reach

360 discs max out at 6.8 gb. A lot of games do hit that max and have for a while.

 

[Painraze]

Not sure if this has been answered... have they left enough internal memory for significant firmware updates?

 

[Izayoi]

wow ngp really looks like its going to be the dominant handheld this gen

if its region free day 1

As Vook has proven, if anything region locking only increases sales.

But seriously, not very many people care, unfortunately. Region locking will not have a significant impact on sales no matter which way you spin it.

The NGP's success at this point is directly tied to how expensive Sony decides to make it. The system looks great, but if it costs a fortune it won't sell.

 

[googleplex]

Wouldn't 4gb of flash be enough for any game? The 360 arcade has that much but no way can you use 4gb to download things from XBL or PSN. MS gets around this problem by offering very easy to install hard drives and expandable USB storage.

Nope the PS3 needs at lest 10 gigs of storage for games and OS functions from what I understand.

But I could be wrong.

 

[Zoe]

Nope the PS3 needs at lest 10 gigs of storage for games and OS functions from what I understand.

But I could be wrong.

The smallest commercially available PS3 drive is 20GB. The OS automatically reserves ~10% of the drive for caching and other stuff, so technically it could probably work with a smaller drive as long as there is automatically 2GB set aside but the OS may not allow it.

 

[jcm]

I don't understand why carts would be limited to 4GB. What is the limiting factor here? It can't be physical package size - you get buy 32GB micro SD cards. I assume it's just a cost of flash problem, in which case Moore's Law will take care of growth.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Not sure if this has been answered... have they left enough internal memory for significant firmware updates?

Don't see why not but I'm not sure they even need to discuss that with developers right now. They'll need a 512MB or 1GB of flash for the system to use if they want to have a game suspend state like the PSP Go.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

I assume it's just a cost of flash problem, in which case Moore's Law will take care of growth.

It has to be cost, no technical reason.

 

[Man]

I don't understand why carts would be limited to 4GB. What is the limiting factor here?.

You worry needlessly. That's the sizes they are going to mass produce for the beginning.
They will increase capacity later on for the same card i/o when it is actually needed.

 

[Lonely1]

I don't understand why carts would be limited to 4GB. What is the limiting factor here? It can't be physical package size - you get buy 32GB micro SD cards. I assume it's just a cost of flash problem, in which case Moore's Law will take care of growth.

You need to factor the cost of those 32GB SD cards, though.

 

[forknknife]

So, do we know anything about how Sony expects those analogs sticking out to last? I'm guessing the machine while come with some sort of protective case or something because it doesn't seem like they are retractile. That's the thing that worries me the most of buying it.

 

[Man]

iPad2 GarageBand might be an indication how they are doing 'pressure' sensitivity on the PSP2 touch screens (harder key press on Piano actually creating stronger tone).

It is the gyro/accelerometer that picks up the vibration of the more intense tap.

 

[Takao]

OMG. THIS! I wasn't that enamored with the original design either but atleast the plastic looked incredibly sexy and glossy. The GDC units seem to be using some cheap plastic that looks awful.

The images I posted in the OP are very unflattering.

 

[mrklaw]

Only AAA titles will be available through retail, rest DD.

SCEE President says digital is main focus for NGP, but retailers still have a major part to play; ‘We’ve learnt from mistakes'
Sony’s pursuit of high-end handheld gaming content will keep retail in the mix – but not every game made for NGP will make it to the High Street.

link

not sure if that means full fat NGP titles will be DD only, or that not all games on NGP will be 'full' - so expanding minis and PSN titles as a share of NGP content?


its an interesting thing, this transition to digital. In the traditional supermarket space manufacturers will often introduce new variations on products to try and get more shelf inches at the cost of their competitors. but with games it seems everyone is rushing to digital. I suppose there might be more 'value' there - the more active gamers are likely to adopt it more rapidly, plus more margin = win. But you risk isolating a big bunch of the mainstream, more casual audience that has only recently expanded so much.

 

[Binabik15]

Only AAA titles will be available through retail, rest DD.



link

not sure if that means full fat NGP titles will be DD only, or that not all games on NGP will be 'full' - so expanding minis and PSN titles as a share of NGP content?


its an interesting thing, this transition to digital. In the traditional supermarket space manufacturers will often introduce new variations on products to try and get more shelf inches at the cost of their competitors. but with games it seems everyone is rushing to digital. I suppose there might be more 'value' there - the more active gamers are likely to adopt it more rapidly, plus more margin = win. But you risk isolating a big bunch of the mainstream, more casual audience that has only recently expanded so much.

I don´t really want DD to become more and more emphasized. I like owning physical copies, even if I only have them to install to memory.

I have bought exactly zero DD games so far and will continue like that for a while.

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

Only AAA titles will be available through retail, rest DD.



link

not sure if that means full fat NGP titles will be DD only, or that not all games on NGP will be 'full' - so expanding minis and PSN titles as a share of NGP content?


its an interesting thing, this transition to digital. In the traditional supermarket space manufacturers will often introduce new variations on products to try and get more shelf inches at the cost of their competitors. but with games it seems everyone is rushing to digital. I suppose there might be more 'value' there - the more active gamers are likely to adopt it more rapidly, plus more margin = win. But you risk isolating a big bunch of the mainstream, more casual audience that has only recently expanded so much.

it will be the same as with ps3. games that can't afford retail presence will be only on PSN. the only difference is retail games will be day and date at retail and on PSN.

 

[gofreak]

On a side note, scedev.net is taking registrations of interest in PlayStation Suite:

http://pss.scedev.net/

You only need a PSN account and a contact email - hopefully the rest of the process will be as easily accessible for devs.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

On a side note, scedev.net is taking registrations of interest in PlayStation Suite:

http://pss.scedev.net/

You only need a PSN account and a contact email - hopefully the rest of the process will be as easily accessible for devs.

This seems interest..

* Android 2.3 or beyond is required.

Fuck you for not updating the X10 Mini Pro beyond Android 2.1, SonyEricsson

 

[Gravijah]

This seems interest..



Fuck you for not updating the X10 Mini Pro beyond Android 2.1, SonyEricsson

hah hah upgrade motherfucker

 

[googleplex]

Only AAA titles will be available through retail, rest DD.



link

not sure if that means full fat NGP titles will be DD only, or that not all games on NGP will be 'full' - so expanding minis and PSN titles as a share of NGP content?


its an interesting thing, this transition to digital. In the traditional supermarket space manufacturers will often introduce new variations on products to try and get more shelf inches at the cost of their competitors. but with games it seems everyone is rushing to digital. I suppose there might be more 'value' there - the more active gamers are likely to adopt it more rapidly, plus more margin = win. But you risk isolating a big bunch of the mainstream, more casual audience that has only recently expanded so much.

It may means that big games will be at retail and DD. While small games will be DD?

 

[gofreak]

It may means that big games will be at retail and DD. While small games will be DD?

All games will be DD. A subset of publishers' choosing - the bigger games - will be at retail.

In other words I think it'll be the status quo, but with everyone on the PSN store also.

 

[Gravijah]

It may means that big games will be at retail and DD. While small games will be DD?

Yes. Stuff like Patapon, I would expect to be DD only.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

hah hah upgrade motherfucker

Ehhh nah. Maybe when the Xperia Play is out, but not before that.

 

[Gravijah]

Ehhh nah. Maybe when the Xperia Play is out, but not before that.

Upgrade for me, man. I'm stuck on MetroPCS. No point in even having a nice phone.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Upgrade for me, man. I'm stuck on MetroPCS. No point in even having a nice phone.

I had no idea what MetroPCS is, so I checked their website and was met by a photo of Snoop Dogg in suit and tie. wut :lol

 

[cws]

All games will be DD. A subset of publishers' choosing - the bigger games - will be at retail.

In other words I think it'll be the status quo, but with everyone on the PSN store also.

They promised the same after the PSP GO reveal, we know how that turned out....

 

[Gravijah]

I had no idea what MetroPCS is, so I checked their website and was met by a photo of Snoop Dogg in suit and tie. wut :lol

It's a cheap phone service. I get unlimited everything for like 45 bucks... but the service sucks. You get what you pay for, quality wise.

 

[Nessus]

I have bought exactly zero DD games so far and will continue like that for a while.

Then you're missing out.

Some of the best games this gen were for the DD services for 360, PSN, and Wii.

 

[gofreak]

They promised the same after the PSP GO reveal, we know how that turned out....

Yeah, but as he says in quote, they were retrofitting digital onto an existing strategy, it'll be there from the start with NGP. So they can set the necessary terms with publishers from the start. As they said during the NGP lecture, it's a single submit for both retail and PSN now - meaning, I think, if you submit for retail, inextricably you are submitting for PSN.

 

[googleplex]

sorry double post.

 

[googleplex]

Yeah, but as he says in quote, they were retrofitting digital onto an existing strategy, it'll be there from the start with NGP. So they can set the necessary terms with publishers from the start. As they said during the NGP lecture, it's a single submit for both retail and PSN now - meaning, I think, if you submit for retail, inextricably you are submitting for PSN.

Good!

The NGP being compatible with downloaded PSP1 game may lead to a lot of missing PSP1 titles ending up on the PSN store.

 

[mrklaw]

All games will be DD. A subset of publishers' choosing - the bigger games - will be at retail.

In other words I think it'll be the status quo, but with everyone on the PSN store also.

Sure, I think so too. But then its either a badly quoted interview, or the guy doesn't get the message across well. Its a trade paper, he could have framed the discussion exactly how you have and made it very clear. but the way he describes it just sounds odd.

 

[EvilDick34]

I honestly don't understand why most peope think this thing will be 300 dollar or less. Just like the psp, they have thrown everything and more at this thing. I want to say the base model will cost 400 bucks and 3G 500.

 

[Massa]

I honestly don't understand why most peope think this thing will be 300 dollar or less. Just like the psp, they have thrown everything and more at this thing. I want to say the base model will cost 400 bucks and 3G 500.

They haven't, really. This thing is the most standard console Sony ever designed.

 

[jeff_rigby]

OMG. THIS! I wasn't that enamored with the original design either but atleast the plastic looked incredibly sexy and glossy. The GDC units seem to be using some cheap plastic that looks awful.

If the NGP doesn't include internal memory for caching and preloading game assets, they sure as hell better include a LOT of ram. And fast ram at that.

Either 512mbs of LPDDR2 ram or 1gb would be ideal. Or they could use some very fast video ram and a lot of generic but slow LPDDR1 ram for general system use.

This is how Epic Citadel was able to look so good on the iPhone, by storing tons and tons of high resolution textures and backgrounds to the RAM. It's also why no 3DS game will have comparable textures, and why Unreal Engine 3 isn't being ported to the 3DS (96mbs of ram).

The 4 gig and larger game cards are going to include a few megs of slow SD memory for game saves and updates but the ROM might be a type that is MUCH faster at reads.

I agree that NGP system memory for the storage of applications that come with the NGP needs to be faster than what we have seen with Android handhelds.

 

[jeff_rigby]

If it helps any, real GPS doesn't use towers at all, it connects to satellites. However, it's possible to use cell towers to assist the location process, making for cheaper hardware (cheap as in it's practically free with a decent wifi/bluetooth/3g combo chip).

http://www.skyhookwireless.com/

And there is one other location method popular in Japan where there are thousands of wifi Lan sites supported by businesses and Governement. With an updated table of public access wifi locations, if you are in range of one or several, your apporoximate location can be determined. This is how the PSP determines location in Japan without GPS.

GPS will not work indoors but Cell tower and LAN Hotspot will work indoors. In a large Mall that supports WIFI, 300 feet is the max distance for wifi so multiple hot spots are necessary. Your location in the mall or on a street can be determined within about 300 feet with 1 wifi received and within a smaller distance with multiple. Cell tower is similar but can have even a less accurate ability to locate precicely give the same number of receive points. GPS is accurate within about 10 feet but only outdoors with multiple satellites in view.

A table of wifi hot spots was probably being established by Google when they were doing their street view passes all over the world. This is why they were gathering information from business and home networks (name, location, channel, types (G or N), public access or encripted, range, etc.)

 

[Graphics Horse]

The 4 gig and larger game cards are going to include a few megs of slow SD memory for game saves and updates but the ROM might be a type that is MUCH faster at reads.

And besides, internal flash wouldn't necesarily be any faster than reading from the card directly. More main ram is always nice though.

 

[Yoboman]

I honestly don't understand why most peope think this thing will be 300 dollar or less. Just like the psp, they have thrown everything and more at this thing. I want to say the base model will cost 400 bucks and 3G 500.

"Just like PSP" which launched at $180 (yen) - $249 (USD)?

 

[Luigiv]

The 4 gig and larger game cards are going to include a few megs of slow SD memory for game saves and updates but the ROM might be a type that is MUCH faster at reads.

I agree that NGP system memory for the storage of applications that come with the NGP needs to be faster than what we have seen with Android handhelds.

From the sounds of it the game cards appear to be flash based cards partitioned between read only and rewritable, so I doubt the read speeds will be anything to write home about.

 

[thuway]

Honestly, this is not like the PSP. They could go with significantly more powerful hardware, but as luck would have it, they can't. Too much power draw / battery life etc.

 

[Graphics Horse]

From the sounds of it the game cards appear to be flash based cards partitioned between read only and rewritable, so I doubt the read speeds will be anything to write home about.

Sony and Sandisk have been talking about 500MBPS CompactFlash cards recently. Probably too far in the future for those speeds, but the cards they've shown look chunky enough to be related to CF. EDIT: No they don't, they're about 1 inch wide like an SD card.

 

[Luigiv]

Sony and Sandisk have been talking about 500MBPS CompactFlash cards recently. Probably too far in the future for those speeds, but the cards they've shown look chunky enough to be related to CF.

Fair enough. CF based would be pretty cool (much better then MS based at the very least).

 

[Graphics Horse]

Fair enough. CF based would be pretty cool (much better then MS based at the very least).

Actually I think I'm wrong about the size now I look at more pictures, they look the same size as a normal SD card. But Sony & friends seem to be working on speed improvements for all of these formats.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Fair enough. CF based would be pretty cool (much better then MS based at the very least).

Sony Duo had two flash memory chips that alternated reads for almost double the read speeds. The PS3 uses the same technique with it's flash memory. People complain about the cost of the Sony duo memory compared to plain SD without understanding what Sony is doing and the advantage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash

In November 2010, Sandisk, Sony and Nikon proposed a next generation card format targeted at high-definiton camcorders and high-resolution digital photo cameras; not backward compatible, the proposed format would come in a similar form factor as CF/CFast but be based on PCI Express instead of ATA and would offer read speed of 500 MB/s and storage capabilities beyond 2 TiB. [6] It remains unclear, if the CFA will adopt this proposal, as CF 5.0 already supports media up to 128 PiB and CF 6.0 adds speeds up to 167 MB/s, while the SATA-based CFast already defines speeds up to 300 MB/s.

The CF size does not mean new format CF speeds. This would however put the NGP heads and shoulders above most Android platforms if it were using this memory. Cost again? Another reason for Sony to purchase the "Cell" fab plant in Japan from Toshiba?

 

[MoxManiac]

If there's going to be that much emphasis on DD for NGP, then they NEED to have internal memory of some kind.

 

[gofreak]

If there's going to be that much emphasis on DD for NGP, then they NEED to have internal memory of some kind.

I think people are getting very confused between internal memory and included memory.

The original post that seemed to spark this whole thread of debate said 'it looks like theirs no internal memory' - which there may not be. But there may well, and probably will be IMO, some minimum level of removeable storage included in every SKU. That's what they need to do so that everyone can use downloadable content from day one without another purchase - not include internal memory necessarily.

 

[TheExecutive]

There's no need for Sony to include (user-accessible) memory flash memory to the core unit.

If the game carts allow for saves. then that might be just enough for most consumers.
They can sell their proprietary storage solution to the consumers who are interested in DD. It's all about offering choice.

Hahahhaahhaa. I see what you did there

 

[Dedication Through Light]

I think people are getting very confused between internal memory and included memory.

The original post that seemed to spark this whole thread of debate said 'it looks like theirs no internal memory' - which there may not be. But there may well, and probably will be IMO, some minimum level of removeable storage included in every SKU. That's what they need to do so that everyone can use downloadable content from day one without another purchase - not include internal memory necessarily.

Solution: Release a $299 value pack on day one that includes a 4+ GB storage card?

 

[gofreak]

Solution: Release a $299 value pack on day one that includes a 4+ GB storage card?

I think every SKU will have a memory card of one or other capacity included. Probably 2 or 4GB at a minimum. The 3g SKU will probably have a larger one.

The question of internal memory is a totally different one. I'm sure there will be internal memory, but it probably won't be exposed to the user, for user data - it'll probably just be to store the OS. That keeps things simpler if the model is one that focuses on expandable storage rather than a 'locked' amount of storage somewhere inside the unit.