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Niche games: How much do they matter?

J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
We need B-games and niche games that take the big risks AAA games don't, as they end up being the most fun and add variety.
 
R

ronaldthump

Member
good to have range

I gotta say, love don't starve on ps4. Some indies, are bigger than they feel. Incredible like Journey and werido fun ones like tokyo jungle.

diversity in the gaming world isn't a bad thing. Xxxteenth FPS? snore.
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
NightShift said:
They matter more than any other AAA game that tries to appeal to as many people as possible while just becoming bland and forgetable. These games will develop cult followings that much more people will care about than any Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed or Halo.
Click to expand...

I'm not following this logic at all. What you (and I FWIW) consider "bland", are so because of how very mass market they are aimed at being most of the time. The very nature of them being mass market means that they will in theory sell bucket loads. Niche games do not most of the time, although they can still make a decent profit. Mass sales annually, even with forgettable games will generate more money usually than games that end up with a cult following. Why else are they continually churned out? Do niche games as a whole generate more money altogether compared to the kind of money a corporation like EA is generating? I honestly don't know, but probably not, and even if they were, that's still as a whole, not to each developer or publisher.

Regardless, more options for all are good, but it would be nice if some of these games would lay off the kitchen sink approach and actually try injecting something new for a change.

Mass Effect said:
Really, this boils down to us referring to niche in two different ways. Because from my perspective, just because a game was cheap to make and can make a tidy profit even if it only sells maybe a couple hundred thousand max doesn't make it less niche, but rather a sound investment.
Click to expand...

This is truly the first time I've ever seen niche being based off of ROI. You can say that many niche games don't have a high budget, or they just might not make a decent profit, but I don't see the correlation with the type of game it actually is other than the fact that maybe not a lot of people bought it.
 
M

Mass Effect

Member
Teeth said:
Niche is a matter of perspective and context.

Generally people will talk about niche games in a budgetary sense. Like, if a platform holder will fund a $30 million dollar game that sells 140k copies, yeah, that was probably money better spent elsewhere. If a company spends $2 million on a game that sells 100k copies, that was a great investment. When games cost $50,000 to make, but nothing sold more than 1 million copies, was everything niche?
Click to expand...

Really? Because I've never heard of niche being referred to in that sense. It has always been in relation to popularity or potential market reach.

As for your other point, then it becomes a matter of relativity. Just because the general threshold was lower back then doesn't mean you can't apply the same logic. The game that sells 900k is mainstream (or rather, not niche at least) compared to the game that only sells 20k, even if both are profitable.

Really, this boils down to us referring to niche in two different ways. Because from my perspective, just because a game was cheap to make and can make a tidy profit even if it only sells maybe a couple hundred thousand max doesn't make it less niche, but rather a sound investment.

Teeth said:
People act in their own self interest. Companies have X budget to spend. They want that money spent on games they want. Call of Madden player wants exclusive map packs. Somebody else wants Crystal Bearers Duodenum. Which one should platform holder X spend money on? Because if they spend a lot of money on Duodenum over and over, but it doesn't recoup costs, there may not be a company left to fund Duodenum again (see: Sega).
Click to expand...

In other words: opportunity cost. This is something I kind of brushed on by quoting Figments' post. It becomes a matter of determining what will be most beneficial to the company instead of fruitlessly wasting money.

Again, using MS an example, people were saying they shouldn't bother investing into getting Japanese games on their platform because it would be a waste of money with very little return. And I would agree with that. But maybe them investing elsewhere into other smaller titles (indies for example) is probably less expensive while giving them far more benefits, all while expanding the variety of their library.
 
C

Crayolan

Member
Niche Japanese games coming to PS4 is the reason I've gone from "PS4 has no games" to "I want to buy a PS4 soon." If all it got was the usual western AAA 3rd party stuff I'd probably never buy it.
 
M

Mass Effect

Member
Sanctuary said:
This is truly the first time I've ever seen niche being based off of ROI. You can say that many niche games don't have a high budget, or they just might not make a decent profit, but I don't see the correlation with the type of game it actually is other than the fact that maybe not a lot of people bought it.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm saying though; how much invested doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a niche product or not.
 
Sanctuary

Sanctuary

Member
Mass Effect said:
That's what I'm saying though; how much invested doesn't have any bearing on whether it's a niche product or not.
Click to expand...

Oh, I know that's what you were saying. Maybe my reply to what I quoted made it seem like I was trying to refute what I thought you were saying, but I wasn't.
 
Samanosuke Akechi

Samanosuke Akechi

Member
I don't care how much a game sales per se, so long as it's profitable for the company making it at least.

Japanese games are what I grew up on playing Nintendo and sega and PlayStation. Mario, Final Fantasy, chrono trigger, silent hill, mgs, resident evil, devil may cry, dino crisis, sonic, tekken, soul calibur, the list goes on and on. Back then the most "western" games I played were tony hawk and sports games.

So while Japanese produced games have lost their appeal and popularity within the mainstream, they're still my #1 reason for gaming and if they stopped making them, I wouldn't have a reason to continue playing games. But that's just me being old.
 
K

klee123

Member
The way I see it is if the only games available are the call of duties, battlefields and fifas, I'd probably quit gaming. AAA market in general is just so stale in my eyes.
 
R

Recall

Member
Not everyone is obsessed with graphics, realism and killing everything that moves in all their games.

Niche games offer alternatives and options. There is no downside to choice.
 
NoMoreTrolls

NoMoreTrolls

Banned
They certainly matter to me. I know I'm in the minority, as this year I'm getting Gravity Rush 2, Nier, Nioh, and Persona in addition to many mainstream games like Mass Effect. Niche titles are what round out my gaming year when I'm fatigued by whatever shooter or open world game I've been playing. Games like Ori and Cuphead are great bookends for larger, 50+ hour games. They relieve my gaming fatigue when I've played a certain genre of game for too long. Sunset Overdrive is one of the main reasons I went for an Xbox One so early, and damn if it wasn't great! I'm counting the days until I can get repeatedly murdered in Nioh, even as I've set aside the funds for the new ME and Horizon.

I'm not sure that any one niche game would have sold me on a system... I would have bought a PS4 for Uncharted/TLoU2 regardless. I would probably have bought an Xbox One for Halo/Gears/Forza. But the niche titles keep me playing those systems year round instead of running back to my PC for WoW or Path of Exile as soon as I've beaten the latest tentpole exclusive.
 
E

EekumBokum

Member
I'd most likely stop playing videogames if those type of niche games were to suddenly disappear. None of the 1st party devs (even Nintendo) are enough, and AAA 3rd parties are too basic.
 
kubricks

kubricks

Member
It's funny when I saw the title which says Niche games, then I look at the list and realized these are the ONLY type of games I play LOL.

I know my place and have nothing meaningful to add to this post.
 
J

jdstorm

Banned
For me it mattered a lot. I was LTTP on last gen and went with Playstation over Xbox because of the niche first party title Rain. For me it was a system seller.

Now the PS4 is my primary multiplat system. So i guess Rain sold me 2 systems plus a bunch of games.
 
S

SciencePilot

Member
They matter to me. It's the primary content that I'm interested in.

As far as I'm concerned, the mainstream games exist to fund the niche games. Mainstream games are a necessary corporatism to allow for niche art to exist.
 
C

crimilde

Banned
As many people have said in this thread, it's the reason I still have this as a hobby. Were it not for niche games I wouldn't care about video games as much I do.

So yes, they are essential to me. And more options for the consumer are always good. Even if someone bought a console just for big budget AAA titles, if following that they ended up discovering a new niche game that they enjoy, that's a win in my mind.
 
F

Figments

Member
There is a middle ground.

I, unfortunately, haven't exactly elaborated that in any of my previous posts, but there is indeed something there.

Now, let me be clear, when I made my initial argument, I was specifically arguing against Microsoft needlessly spending money to get every genre under the sun on their platform, when there is no clear reason to do so, besides satisfying several members of GAF.

And when I say clear reason, I mean a reason other than diversity for the sake of diversity.

Now, the middle ground would most likely be something combining multiplayer-focus with diverse mechanics. I made this point awhile ago: Team Xbox should be looking at Splatoon for diversity, for niche, and using that and games like it as a guideline for what they should be doing. Multiplayer is their bread and butter--always has, always will be--so they should be looking to diversify by playing to their core strengths, as a means of expanding what Xbox Live should mean to people.

That's the purpose.

As I also said in previous threads, Team Xbox should be at the forefront of multiplayer innovation, in both gameplay and featureset, because that's where their strengths have always lied. And we still haven't expanded multiplayer to its full potential yet. Games are coming out all the time which utilize new and creative ways for people to play together over the net, and it's irritating to me to see that Xbox isn't leading the pack.

I get that people want more singleplayer, wacky games. But the reality is that only handfuls are buying them on this platform. Niche shouldn't mean simply either Japanese, or Singleplayer quirky. Xbox--and many in this industry--need to realize this potential for multiplayer ASAP. That's where the true experiences lie, for me. Building a system out of which stories are made. Human stories, created by people doing things with each other.

Not cinematic, not Hollywood-esque, not wacky for the sake of being wacky.

Something with an actual purpose for existing.

Recall said:
Not everyone is obsessed with graphics, realism and killing everything that moves in all their games.

Niche games offer alternatives and options. There is no downside to choice.
Click to expand...

Speaking outside of this topic for a second, there are downsides to choice. And indecisiveness is just one of them.
 
Z

Zedark

Member
They do matter. The Neogaf crowd and other gaming enthusiasts will use them as a reason to choose a system, and that crowd, as small as they may be, bring in by far the highest revenue per person, so they have relatively high importance for the system.

Of course, these niche games are not as important as the big games that bring in the huge mainstream crowd, but they should definitely not be scoffed at.
 
I

IC5

Member
Mass Effect said:
So recently there's been discussions (because you know why) revolving around about how much certain games matter or don't matter. And if you've been in any of those other threads, you've probably seen that list. You know, the one of the upcoming (mostly Q1) PS4 games. If you don't know what I'm talking about, here it is, more or less:

Gravity Rush 2
Nioh
Nier: Automata
Guilty Gear Xrd
Persona 5
Dragon Quest Heroes/XI
Earth Defense Force 5
Dynasty Warriors series
Samurai Warriors series
King of Fighters XIV
Ace Combat 7
Yakuza series
Yooka-Laylee

It differs depending on who's posting it, but as you can see most of are lesser-known (outside of GAF/gaming circles) Japanese games. A common response to that list is "none of these games matter" or "they're niche games that won't sell a lot." And it's true, something like Red Dead Redemption 2 will outsell every Japanese game on this list combined, but I don't think its entirely about sales. It's also about diversity.

Like I said, most of those games listed above won't sell all that much individually, but combined and over time, I think they can attract a not-so-insignificant number of people to the PS4. If, for example, (warning: totally made up numbers incoming) Persona sells 100k people on a PS4, Nioh sells 50k PS4s, Nier sells 10k PS4s and so on, it starts to add up (note: these [madeup] numbers aren't software unit sales, but [madeup] PS4 sales). None of those numbers are significant on their own, but as you get more of these games on your system, it only helps.

Not only that, but it's a compound effect: You get more niche games on your system > people buy your system for said niche games > those niche games sell better as the audience for them grows.

I don't see why Sony should stop going after these games, especially when either a.) they're cheap to make, or b.) they're not even financially responsible for them. I don't think it particularly harms Sony to court them. In fact, it probably helps them (otherwise, why would they keep doing it?).

And I've seen several others share the same sentiment in the other threads:





That's where I stand on the matter. They draw in new audiences to your system and help sustain those audiences. They build longtime fanbases (see: Ueda games). They encourage more developers to release those niche games on your system.

To me, the question is as to the metric by which these niche games collectively have an effect? Obviously they aren't the most biggest factor to a platform's sales or growth, but are they an important factor nonetheless?

And this isn't just about niche Japanese games, but niche games in general. If we look specifically on the Xbox, we're also talking about games like Sunset Overdrive or ReCore. Or D4 or Scalebound (yes I know they're Japanese). And that's something I wanted to make clear, since many in Master Ninja's thread expressed apathy to not getting Japanese games, which is fine, but that thread ended up focusing specifically on Japanese games, whether Xbox gamers care about them, and whether Microsoft should bother investing more into them (answer: they shouldn't). So to Xbox fans: surely you guys want more games like SSOD, ReCore, or Ori(? does this count?) right? Because those titles bring diversity into the line-up of the system.

This isn't to say that Microsoft has totally stopped investing into niche games. After all, they are publishing titles like Cuphead; however, if what we're hearing from certain people is true, then they are at least scaling back on pursuing these games, especially when it comes to bigger (in scope, not popularity) games.

On the flipside, if Sony were to drop supporting these games (either by not making the games themselves or by not helping out like with marketing or publishing like they're doing with Nioh) would it hurt Sony in the longterm? To Sony fans: would that negatively impact your view on Playstation or would you not be all that affected?

Hell, we can even bring Steam into this topic. There are so many smaller games there that definitely aren't mainstream, but people still enjoy nonetheless. Games you absolutely would never see anywhere else, especially on console. Games like Sir, You Are Being Hunted, The Stanley Parable, or Sunless Sea just to name a few. In fact, I'd argue Steam is probably the strongest case for this entire argument on why niche games can have a great effect.

Still, it's also not as if this prevents 3rd AAA blockbusters from coming. They'll still be there, and they'll still sell millions, but appealing only to that audience limits what games become viable on your platform because you curate an audience that doesn't care for those games. But that also doesn't mean throwing away money just for the sake of 'variety,' a point that Figments made in another thread:



But I believe there can be a balance somewhere in between.

What do you think? Do these smaller, niche titles move you more towards one platform or the other?
Click to expand...

A list like that is exactly why Playstation was successful in the first place. PSone embodied niche, small release, sub-genre, expirmentation. Playstation was built on this. PS3 lost a little bit of that. Its good to see PS4 remembering what made the brand great.

Just like how its B.S. that you can't float a good TV show on 1 million viewer ratings----It's B.S. that games have to have huge budgets and sell more than 2 million copies, to be viable.

I give Atlus a lot of credit, for keeping the dream alive. Demon's Souls sort of countered the hole the industry was being sucked into. and their other titles, published or developed, are other examples of how to keep things balanced and interesting.
 
C

Coda

Member
These days it's been PS4 for my mainline Japanese niche games and the upcoming Nintendo Switch for that Nintendo flavor. Exclusives and niche games def matter because of the add up factor. People have favorite games and that drives the industry. If we all just had Zelda we wouldn't really be a collective bunch.
 
F

Fahzgoolin

Banned
Niche are what keeps me interested in games as a whole. I spend more time with shooters, but niche titles are what keep me invested in the medium.

Of course this is GAF, so that will be the more common answer among the devoted nerd crowd.
 
D

DangerMouse

Member
Hawkens said:
To answer your larger question, yes they do matter when grouped. Most of those that you show are big in Japan, and are at least recognizable in the west, and when one console can corner the market on them, it matters. Getting one or two of those wouldn't shift much, but getting them all, and many as exclusives does matter.

One group of games that I would add, is the AAA adventure games that Sony puts out. Individually, Heavy Rain, Until Dawn, and Detroit: Become Human would be an interesting spectacle, but not shift much in terms of the market place. But together, Sony has created a sizable fan base for large budget adventure games. Sony took a niche genre with a niche audience, and managed to take it mainstream.
Click to expand...

This is another really good example. I love that they are doing these big budget adventure games.
 
G

Greddleok

Member
They matter a lot. Maybe not individually, but additively when it comes to system selling.

On top of that, people who enjoy niche games tend to be deep into the hobby, so they end up buying more games than most other people. I know of the PS4 list, I intend to get at least 50% of them, unlike the FIFA/COD gamer that exists and buys 2 games a year.
 
S

Shadoken

Member
They matter a lot for a variety of reasons. The Userbase they attract are usually HIGH spenders.

I bought a PS4 over an XB1 mainly because of its library. However some of my casual friends bought an XB1 because they saw a good BF deal on it. I have probably spent more on just SFV and its overpriced costumes than they spent on buying games. Now add in stuff like PSN and word of mouth. Niche games do matter.
 
P

PKrockin

Member
I'm a big fan of the mid-budget second-rate JRPG series Tales of. The Wii got a horrible Tales game in 2008 in the same year that the 360 got an incredible looking one, so I quickly bought a 360. I picked up some 25 games for the 360 such as Resident Evil 5 and Bioshock. Sometime around late 2011/early 2012, as the PS3 became the definitive home for Tales games, I bought a PS3 and my attention naturally shifted toward it. I bought about 20 games for that console. Instead of buying Resident Evil 6 and Bioshock Infinite on the 360, I bought them on PS3.

So, Wii aside, exclusivity of a somewhat niche JRPG franchise basically drove my purchasing behavior last gen. That's pretty funny.
 
R

Rathorial

Member
Of course niche games matter, especially because niches can range in size from the thousands to the few million (Don't Starve, Rocket League). I'd even say many people who consume more mainstream games, also crossover to some kind of niche they happen to dig.

They do add up to form a diverse library, and when you're already on a certain platform or ecosystem, when you're getting more into the medium itself...you tend to chance a few weird games outside your comfort zone. Steam is a great example, because it essentially broadens the idea of window shopping, as the same interface you navigate to buy the game you were already looking for, is ready to recommend or display other highly rated/best selling games.

Niche or indie games are why I tend to gravitate towards Steam and PC gaming in general. The better graphics and performance on the big stuff is a nice cherry on top, but the weird games that offer me unique new experiences keep things interesting vs. the stale iteration of enough of AAA content. Some games are inventive enough that they make me like a genre/sub-genre I previously never cared for, and others remind me why I liked a genre in the first place by giving it a new slant.

Consoles trying to promote more indie content, only validates that it matters for their bottom line.
 
S

Shengar

Member
Just to tell you and everyone, Soulsborne shouldn't be considered niche anymore with that consistent millions sales. It's not part of the casual audience like Battlefield or CoD, but they've become part of this generation mainstream gaming experience. Bloodborne for example, have become part of the answer to the casually question "what exclusive does it have?",
 
G

gelf

Member
I likely wouldn't buy a system without them these days. Especially if niche counts as the incredibly broad net some like to cast, i.e. anything not a multi million seller AAA.

If they suddenly dried up then I'd be retrogaming a lot more. A diverse lineup is important to a system.
 
M

marimorimo

Member
Pretty much all the games I like to play are niche, so they matter to me.

Don't know how important I am as a consumer. Must be pretty niche.
 
wapplew

wapplew

Member
Gravity Rush 2
Nioh
Nier: Automata
Guilty Gear Xrd
Persona 5
Dragon Quest Heroes/XI
Earth Defense Force 5
Dynasty Warriors series
Samurai Warriors series
King of Fighters XIV
Ace Combat 7
Yakuza series
Yooka-Laylee

Almost everyone of those are blockbuster in PS2 era, now we call them niche.
 
R

Rymuth

Member
Alone, they don't matter. Together, very much so.

Let me use this analogy - MS, Penello and certain posters, like to belittle Sony releasing in smaller countries. Now PS4 ROTW sales eclipse >>> NA sales

It all adds up
 
M

meppi

Member
For me, they seem to be the games that keep me playing.

From that list in the OP, I'm looking forward to every single one of them.
I do enjoy a good AAA title now and again, but I'm also easily bored by them and quite often burn out on them.
What keeps me playing are indeed these "niche" games as well as arcade style games and classics.
 
Q

QuixoticNeutral

Member
Four years ago, Fire Emblem was niche. Completely aside from the value of breadth in the catalogue and cultivating good faith with small but dedicated niche audiences, you never know when you might flip one of these properties into something big.
 
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