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NieR: Automata Spoiler Thread

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
But when dealing with a society of androids, you do need to have some (apparent) factual basis for your lies - thankfully, it's possible to edit out inconvenient memories when given the opportunity. The setup of the YoRHa project wouldn't have been so drastic if it wasn't necessary to completely cement their deception.

My own personal theory is that the androids themselves knew that they were humanity's legacy. Like look at A2. She acknowledges that she was made in our image, and she wanted to stop the machines from supposedly firing a cannon at the moon server that holds nothing but the data, which she knows about. She has no real reason to want to do that really, but it's part of her instinct.

Maybe the androids just see themselves as part of humanity's legacy and wanted to protect that too, but even then it wasn't enough.
 
My own personal theory is that the androids themselves knew that they were humanity's legacy. Like look at A2. She acknowledges that she was made in our image, and shel wanted to stop the machines from supposedly firing a cannon at the moon server that hold nothing but the data, which she knows about. She has no real reason to want to do that really, but it's part of her instinct.

Maybe the androids just see themselves as part of humanity's legacy and wanted to protect that too, but even then it wasn't enough.

I thought it was implied she was in a relationship with the resistance leader during pearl harbor incident. That would be a good reason.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
MMmm, how so? I guess you can say that she wanted to protect her from knowing the truth, but I don't think so?

Did A2 actually know about anemone being alive before she met her again? I can't quite remember.
 

Golnei

Member
My own personal theory is that the androids themselves knew that they were humanity's legacy. Like look at A2. She acknowledges that she was made in our image, and she wanted to stop the machines from supposedly firing a cannon at the moon server that holds nothing but the data, which she knows about. She has no real reason to want to do that really, but it's part of her instinct.

Maybe the androids just see themselves as part of humanity's legacy and wanted to protect that too, but even then it wasn't enough.

To an extent, isn't that also due to the specific construction of YoRHa androids as opposed to the models actually built by humanity - programmed with a fanatical, inalienable love for humanity to overcorrect any potential influence from their machine cores?

Though there are other factors fuelling that decision as well - she clearly wanted to die, and fulfilling the mission that took the rest of her comrades' lives would seem like an attractive way out, even if she had no actual reason to do it save spite, or some form of revenge.

I thought it was implied she was in a relationship with the resistance leader during pearl harbor incident. That would be a good reason.

If she was in a relationship with anyone, it was No. 4 - she's the one identified as her 'companion', the one who died in her arms; and the one the Terminal resurrected to fuck with her. It's not confirmed if their relationship was anything other than platonic, though.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
But the androids must have that same love for humanity too, because if not why go through this song and dance really?
 

Golnei

Member
But the androids must have that same love for humanity too, because if not why go through this song and dance really?

They would; but it was specifically mentioned that the way in which the YoRHa androids relate to them was deliberately made more intense.

The fact that it was even possible to build them that way suggests the androids could have designed a generation without that fundamental need - but maybe their safeguards prevent them from doing so, since they were always intended to be subservient to humanity rather than its replacement?
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
If humanity is their religion going against it would be blasphemy.

But like, they were also programmed to not feel emotions anyway and we all know that's a crock of shit. :p
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
I know, I guess my point is more that programming in this world is more fuzzy? It's not like a strict logic rule imposed on them as much as just a general thing. The androids were treated as servants because they don't consider machines as being capable of consciousness, and thus the same to Yorha, but as shown that's not really the case?

Which I guess doesn't really have much to do with the argument at hand.
 

Golnei

Member
Emotions being prohibited is only mentioned for Yorha, not any of the others

It's also treated more as an informal rule rather than a fundamental aspect of their programming - look at 9S' breakdown to see how tangible the irrational need for humanity is for the YoRHa androids; whereas the first game's Devola and Popola acted outside of the interest of humanity out of sentiment towards replicants like Nier. It was almost just a job to them - they gave them so many chances instead of neutralising them earlier despite the threat they posed; not until Devola died did they show any personal motivation.
 

kiaaa

Member
It's also treated more as an informal rule rather than a fundamental aspect of their programming - look at 9S' breakdown to see how tangible the irrational need for humanity is for the YoRHa androids; whereas the first game's Devola and Popola acted outside of the interest of humanity out of sentiment towards replicants like Nier. It was almost just a job to them - they gave them so many chances instead of neutralising them earlier despite the threat they posed; not until Devola died did they show any personal motivation.

2B is the only one that mentions prohibited emotions, likely to prevent 9S from getting close to her again.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Yeah actually, I haven't gotten to that part of nier in my playthrough, but was it ever stated why they allowed the gang to get as far as they did?

2B is the only one that mentions prohibited emotions, likely to prevent 9S from getting close to her again.

The Q&A in the world guide said that it is instituted to all YorHa members, but it's not really that strict. Feels more like a self-discipline thing but some are more lax than others (looking at you 6O)
 

Renewed

Member
Ugh maaaan. Route B with Data on the Old World. Pascal: "If I reject the knowledge of nuclear weapons and our village is destroyed at some point in the future, do you think my people would resent me for it?" while playing Vague Hope. I get broken where I don't expect it.
 

Ferr986

Member
I know, I guess my point is more that programming in this world is more fuzzy?

I mean, look at Replicants, they were created to have no reasoning but...

It's also treated more as an informal rule rather than a fundamental aspect of their programming - look at 9S' breakdown to see how tangible the irrational need for humanity is for the YoRHa androids; whereas the first game's Devola and Popola acted outside of the interest of humanity out of sentiment towards replicants like Nier. It was almost just a job to them - they gave them so many chances instead of neutralising them earlier despite the threat they posed; not until Devola died did they show any personal motivation.

I'm pretty sure Pops and Devs acted also acordingly to the Shadowlord command, who wanted to merge with Nier but only once he's grown (this makes more sense in Replicant version where the timeskip goes from a kid to an adult). But yeah it's clear they had an internal conflict between obeying the Shadowlord and caring about the village's replicants and Nier. After all it seemed like androids too changed, much like Replicants.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Also one thing regarding OG nier. Like, JP nier can grow older, but my impressions were that a replicant's age is in stasis?

If not how does it makes sense for the main events to happen like 1000 years after the intro?
 

LotusHD

Banned
Ugh maaaan. Route B with Data on the Old World. Pascal: "If I reject the knowledge of nuclear weapons and our village is destroyed at some point in the future, do you think my people would resent me for it?" while playing Vague Hope. I get broken where I don't expect it.

:(
 

Ferr986

Member
Also one thing regarding OG nier. Like, JP nier can grow older, but my impressions were that a replicant's age is in stasis?

If not how does it makes sense for the main events to happen like 1000 years after the intro?

Different Replicant. Replicants dies and the androids recreated them. Basically a loop inside the town (that acted more like a farm).
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Different Replicant. Replicants dies and the androids recreated them. Basically a loop inside the town (that acted more like a farm).

Ah alright. And then slowly they started gaining sentience through the loops?

I guess I should just keep playing to know more of the details lol. I know the general outline of the plot but not the nitty gritty details.
 
RE: Loop; I don't think I've heard that before. Was it like a 2 or 3 generation loop? I think it'd get fishy if people's kids or grandkids turned out to be exact copies of themselves.

Speaking of OG NieR; what specifically did Popola and Devola do that was 'nutty'? Before people mentioned the attachment to the Replicants I had thought it had to do with abandonment of the peaceful integration approach and attempting the revival project that would force Gestalts into their replicant hosts.

BTW, does anyone have a link to the complete Nier timeline? I found it kinda funny that the 14th Machine War is the Androids refighting WWII 10k years later.

A lot of Android Kit seems to be based on the Germans for some reason. Ho 229 flight unit, the Stahlhelms for the final descent mission, the resistance using Sturmgewhers.
 

Golnei

Member
RE: Loop; I don't think I've heard that before. Was it like a 2 or 3 generation loop? I think it'd get fishy if people's kids or grandkids turned out to be exact copies of themselves.

Speaking of OG NieR; what specifically did Popola and Devola do that was 'nutty'? Before people mentioned the attachment to the Replicants I had thought it had to do with abandonment of the peaceful integration approach and attempting the revival project that would force Gestalts into their replicant hosts.

BTW, does anyone have a link to the complete Nier timeline? I found it kinda funny that the 14th Machine War is the Androids refighting WWII 10k years later.

According to Grimoire Nier, the replicants aren't always in the same exact roles - they mention Yonah being either Nier's daughter or sister in the two versions as an example. Because reproduction is wholly decoupled from the actual Replicants themselves, overseers have greater control over who to introduce into the environment; as well as when and where they'll do so. The medieval level of technology and society also assists in keeping records from generations back vague - in addition, the system was never designed to cope with the Replicants actually being sentient beings instead of docile shells. Much of what we see may be the result of frantic improvisation on the part of the android overseers, with different communities around the world coming to different arrangements.

As for what Popola and Devola did, their catastrophic sympathy with Nier and his group is one part - with Nier being erased from memory and the twins dead, it would only become easier to place more of the blame directly on them, even extending to parts of the disaster that weren't conscious decisions on their part. With the way things were at the end of the first game, they may have even seen reason to believe that what happened was their intent.

A lot of Android Kit seems to be based on the Germans for some reason. Ho 229 flight unit, the Stahlhelms for the final descent mission, the resistance using Sturmgewhers.

Anime loves some Axis iconography. The suicide mission of a Pearl Harbor descent was no coincidence.
 
I am absolutely enjoying my third playthrough going back and doing all the quest. The stories that open up here are just as rewarding as the main plot.

The Lord of the Valley...
The Treasure hunt in the Forest Castle...
9S talking about shopping for clothes...

This game, man.

With that said, I don't know how or if I'm going to bother hunting the trophy for upgrading pods and all weapons. Brutal.
 
According to Grimoire Nier, the replicants aren't always in the same exact roles - they mention Yonah being either Nier's daughter or sister in the two versions as an example. Because reproduction is wholly decoupled from the actual Replicants themselves, overseers have greater control over who to introduce into the environment; as well as when and where they'll do so. The medieval level of technology and society also assists in keeping records from generations back vague - in addition, the system was never designed to cope with the Replicants actually being sentient beings instead of docile shells. Much of what we see may be the result of frantic improvisation on the part of the android overseers, with different communities around the world coming to different arrangements.

As for what Popola and Devola did, their catastrophic sympathy with Nier and his group is one part - with Nier being erased from memory and the twins dead, it would only become easier to place more of the blame directly on them, even extending to parts of the disaster that weren't conscious decisions on their part. With the way things were at the end of the first game, they may have even seen reason to believe that what happened was their intent.



Anime loves some Axis iconography. The suicide mission of a Pearl Harbor descent was no coincidence.

Aren't replicants capable of giving birth though? Kaine for example was definitely a Gestalt/Replicant hybrid. And I think Nier would know whether Yonah was his biological daughter or not.
 

Golnei

Member
Aren't replicants capable of giving birth though? Kaine for example was definitely a Gestalt/Replicant hybrid. And I think Nier would know whether Yonah was his biological daughter or not.

They're completely infertile, and incapable of childbirth. The process as explained in Grimoire Nier was the mother being taken in by an overseer, put to sleep and then handed a child - they seemingly have no concept of the physical realities of pregnancy, and view sex as a purely recreational activity; this is another artifact of a system that didn't account for Replicant sentience, and probably can only hold up at the time of the game due to centuries of tradition. Gestalts are similarly incapable of reproduction (however they are aware of this, unlike the Replicants) - only when reunited can regular biological functions resume.

As for Kaine, she only got infected by Tyrann as a young teenager, after Hook killed her grandmother, destroyed her home and left her for dead.
 

Ferr986

Member
Aren't replicants capable of giving birth though? Kaine for example was definitely a Gestalt/Replicant hybrid. And I think Nier would know whether Yonah was his biological daughter or not.

No, Replicants aren't capable of reproduce. And Nier wouldn't know because when you create a new Replicant it comes with new memories. Nier (as you play with) is a Replicant.

And Kaine was not an hybrid, she was also a Replicant. She had a Gestalt inside them, one that wasn't her own Gestalt, so she had another consiousness inside her. It's the same that happens with Yonah at the end of the game, and that's because Replicants develop consiousness.

Btw, Kaine was special (had a dick) way before Nier events. In the Drama CD is stated that Kaine was a genetical modified child (can't remember the details exactly now).
 

Golnei

Member
Btw, Kaine was special (had a dick) way before Nier. In the Drama CD is stated that Kaine was a genetical modified child (can't remember the details exactly now), something kind of like Emil.

I thought Grimoire Nier said that Kaine being intersex was just an accident in uploading her Replicant data? Specifically, she was said to be a "normal girl with a fiance" in her human life.

"No, in our setting, she was born as a hermaphrodite due to an error in the long-running replicant system. Originally, she was a female with a fiancée, and was supposed to get married."
 

Ferr986

Member
I thought Grimoire Nier said that Kaine being intersex was just an accident in uploading her Replicant data? Specifically, she was said to be a "normal girl with a fiance" in her human life.

I mean, I'm not 100% sure about the dick lol but I'm sure I remember Kaine being some kind of modified child.

To be fair the Drama CD sucks for retconning and shit. It made everyone (Nier, Yonah, Kaine, Emil) reunite and know themselves when they were humans, for example.

EDIT: Here

Note 1: Although Kaine is told that her parents have passed away, she is actually a ”program baby" created by the genes of Kaali, her grandfather and the combined analysis of Legions' attack patterns. Ever since the Legions are announced eradicated, Kaali feels guilty for what she has done, so she takes Kaine upon herself and raises her while sealing the trigger for her offensive form. Unfortunately, the series of events have triggered Kaine to unlock the mechanism as she witnessed the horrifying deaths of her grandparents.

Disregard the dick part though, that was me being confused lol You're right it was a fuck up with the Replicant system.

She was supposed to be strong as fuck

Original!Nier is surprised to see that a human could fight against a Red Eye. Kaine breaks open the Red Eye to release her grandmother while the others fear for her and Emil's power. Kaine keeps on attacking the Red Eye even though it's down and defeated. She even got to the point of attacking humans and she can't control herself. Original!Nier tells Kaine and Emil to stop and there is no longer a need to fight anymore. Original!Nier says he can't leave Kaine there all by herself, others tell him to leave because they are just monsters, but original!Nier defends them by saying that they are not monsters. Original!Nier yells out to Kaine and Emil that they can stop now, and the two return to normal.

That's with her being a kid.
 
BTW, are the shades encountered in NieR only a small fraction of the overall Gestalts? Like there must be some vault somewhere that kept them right?

Also would Replicants lose their invulnerability to WCS if their Gestalt is reunited with them? Otherwise why wouldn't Gestalts immediately fuse with the new bodies?
 
BTW, are the shades encountered in NieR only a small fraction of the overall Gestalts? Like there must be some vault somewhere that kept them right?

Also would Replicants lose their invulnerability to WCS if their Gestalt is reunited with them? Otherwise why wouldn't Gestalts immediately fuse with the new bodies?
thats exactly what would happen. They would become fully human again. The gestalts could not be fused back until WCS had disappeared.
 
BTW, are the shades encountered in NieR only a small fraction of the overall Gestalts? Like there must be some vault somewhere that kept them right?

Also would Replicants lose their invulnerability to WCS if their Gestalt is reunited with them? Otherwise why wouldn't Gestalts immediately fuse with the new bodies?

Yeah, there are multiple Devola and Popola's that oversee Project Gestalt in different parts of the world. Apparently some of them were successful in reuniting Gestalts with Replicants, but not many since humanity died out anyway.
 

Gbraga

Member
God damn what a game - the metaphors are heavy in the end section and , yeah, when the choir kicks in at the end and then your brain makes the connection as the text "ganbare" rain in ... Jesus ....

I can't go to Youtube and listen to the last track without getting the feels all over again.

Did you try The Last Guardian? Seems like a game that could fit well given what you're saying. And it's such a powerful experience as well. I'm 100% sure that if I go to youtube right now and watch the ending again, I'll start crying at work.

I can only speak for myself, since I had thoughts to make a backup save before I went any further when I got to ending E. But I was sitting there thinking it would cheapen my experience in the game.

After all, no such opportunity was afforded to A2 when she sacrificed herself.

I definitely agree with you there. Especially when I see people with a "haha, fuck the police" attitude about it. Like, what are you winning? The game asks you if you want to delete your save, and the whole message is about finding meaning in meaninglessness. You're not getting an incredible reward, it's not necessary for the platinum trophy or anything, it's just a video game and a save file for a videogame. You're only fooling yourself by doing this, you're missing the whole point. It's all about making a sacrifice, however small, because you believe in something, not because you'll get recognition for it, and yet, people want some sort of recognition without making the sacrifice themselves.
 

Ferr986

Member
BTW, are the shades encountered in NieR only a small fraction of the overall Gestalts? Like there must be some vault somewhere that kept them right?

Shades = Gestalt, not a single difference. They're around the world, a lot of them gathered at the Shadowlord castle though

Also would Replicants lose their invulnerability to WCS if their Gestalt is reunited with them? Otherwise why wouldn't Gestalts immediately fuse with the new bodies?

I mean, they're in war for a reason lol
The Aerie scene shows Gestalts doing that. Some of the inhabitants had a Gestalt forced into them. That's why they go all ballshit crazy when Nier comes back after the timeskip going all "I'mma kill all shades".

Of course, because Gestalts are humans, not everyone follow the same rules. Some want to mass force themselves to any Replicant, others just on their own body...

But no, Replicant aren't be affected by WCS.
 
Replying the third playthrough, hadn't realized A2 had encountered the information about 2B's actual mission when she accessed her data in the desert.

Shades = Gestalt, not a single difference. They're around the world, a lot of them gathered at the Shadowlord castle though



I mean, they're in war for a reason lol
The Aerie scene shows Gestalts doing that. Some of the inhabitants had a Gestalt forced into them. That's why they go all ballshit crazy when Nier comes back after the timeskip going all "I'mma kill all shades".

Of course, because Gestalts are humans, not everyone follow the same rules. Some want to mass force themselves to any Replicant, others just on their own body...

But no, Replicant aren't be affected by WCS.

I know they're the same, but I meant more in terms of have the majority of Gestalts relapsed into mindless attackers?
 
Is it ever explained what the "moon incident" is? One of the resistance members casually mentions it at the beginning of the game but it's never explained.
 

vato_loco

Member
Hey guys, I'm not sure if this is worth to be mentioned here but I didn't want to open a new thread just for this, and it's definitely spoilery to place on the OT.

I've been playing the DLC, and there comes a point where even being level 91 gets you nowhere, so I figured I'd do the bunny exploit. For those not in the know, it's a way to reach level 99 extremely fast:
Use 9S to go to the Amusement Park entrance. Hack into one of the big robots with the top hat, Remote Control it, kill all the others in the area and then aim at the bunny statue and hack it until dead.
Hacking it and killing it gives massive amounts of EXP.

The thing is... I don't think it's working anymore. Mostly because
I find it impossible to lock on the bunny statue, so there's no way to hack it. It DOES appear as an enemy, though.
. Does anyone know if the devs patched this?
 
That 4 song combo of Song of the Ancients - Atonement, Blissful Death, Emil - Despair and Faltering Prayer - Starry Sky on the OST hits you right in the feels. In the game I wasn't even looking for Emil's house, I was just wandering​ about and as soon as Blissful Death came in I was like wait, didn't Emil say his house was underground and excitement set in.
 

Golnei

Member
Atonement is a pretty weak arrangement; but the concert version worked so much better than the one on the soundtrack - the smaller live string ensemble and more prominent guitar and percussion playing over the game recording helped smooth out the underwhelming synth orchestra; bringing it closer to Fate.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
Yeah you can find it if you want to. Hopefully someone subs them too. You can find the scripts for it anyway except for a... certain part.
 

PBalfredo

Member
The tidal lock biz is the most underplayed thing ever for how monumental something like that actually would be. I'm not convinced it isn't all just an in-joke for not have a day-night cycle in the game.

Also they mess up and you can totally see Florida in the light side of the planet at the start of one of the flight unit sequences.

And unless Hawaii suddenly became not-tropical and developed some real Japanese-looking cities, I guess A2 just swam to where the game takes place after Pearl Harbor? [/showerthoughts]
 

Golnei

Member
The tidal lock biz is the most underplayed thing ever for how monumental something like that actually would be. I'm not convinced it isn't all just an in-joke for not have a day-night cycle in the game.

Also they mess up and you can totally see Florida in the light side of the planet at the start of one of the flight unit sequences.

It was definitely just an excuse in the first game, but now they're stuck with it. Keeping it in the background and ignoring its larger implications is really all they can do.

And unless Hawaii suddenly became not-tropical and developed some real Japanese-looking cities, I guess A2 just swam to where the game takes place after Pearl Harbor? [/showerthoughts]

She had plenty of time to get there in the years between the game and play - with all of the E-types being sent after her, maybe she stole a flight unit.
 
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