• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

NikkoCitiGroup: PS3 Cost Analysis and more

Amir0x

Banned
Note: This was all done before the recent revelations at the Sony conference, so none of that was taken into consideration when they were doing this analysis. I'm not sure if this was ever posted, so if it was I apologize.

Summary

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all unveiled their next-generation consoles at the May 2005 E3 game show in the US and at the Tokyo Game Show 2005 in September 2005—the
generational change in game consoles will begin, at last, at the end of 2005. The focus in
next-generation consoles will likely be on 1) convergence between game consoles and
non-game devices, 2) the use of computing power and dramatically improved 3D imagingcapabilities, 3) online game services for consoles, and 4) the online distribution of games for casual users and non-game content.

We have investigated the specs of the Sony PS3 and Microsoft’s Xbox 360 and performed
a cost analysis. We conclude that the PS3 will be an expensive machine to make, as it
comes equipped with high-performance components such as the Cell chip and a Blu-ray
disk drive, but we think costs could be cut massively in the future if chip yields rise and
mass production of Blu-ray disk drives lowers unit production costs. The Xbox 360’s
advantage is that initial costs will be low because of the use of commodity components
found in PCs.

We expect the Xbox 360 to make major market share inroads in Europe and the US. We
forecast that the winner will be decided by the 2007 Christmas shopping season, for which
we expect leading software titles to be launched. We feel the Sony camp has to line up
some exclusive titles for the PS3 and strengthen its first-party title offerings.

There are limits to the usefulness of a single-item business model in digital consumer
electronics; tech firms need multiple earnings drivers, and the need for more earnings
drivers in the games business, with its current dual-driver structure, is especially acute. The industry’s urgent task now is to establish a third earnings driver, such as online game
services or distribution, to complement hardware and software.

Implications for the electronic components industry

We estimate that the number of FC packages needed for the new game consoles will reach
more than 82mn units/year in the initial year. This is a fairly sizeable market, even when
compared with the Intel MPU package substrate market (approximately 200mn units/year), the Intel chipset package substrate market (approximately 200mn units/year), and the AMD MPU package substrate market (50mn units/year).

We surmise that the suppliers of FC packages for the high-end LSI used in the new game
consoles are as follows. For the PS3, listed in order of technical manufacturing difficulty:
Shinko Electric Industries and Ibiden for the GPU; Shinko Electric and Kyocera for the
CPU; and Ibiden and Nan Ya Plastics for the chipset. For the Xbox 360 and Nintendo’s
Revolution, we surmise that Shinko Electric and other Japanese makers will play a central
supply role, supported by some Taiwanese makers.

Implications for Sony

Sony’s current earnings structure is such that profits from games and finance are offsetting weakness in the electronics segment. We think FY3/07 will be a grim year for the games segment and for the company as a whole, with operating losses on PS3 consoles. We are more optimistic on FY3/08 earnings, however, as the electronics giant works to cut PS3 costs and restructuring benefits emerge.

What Sony needs to do now, we feel, is to spin out businesses that bear no relevance to
network consumer electronics and devote funds and resources to technological
development that will help it differentiate itself from peers and to alliances and M&A in related industries so that it can become the new dominant force in network consumer
electronics. We will be watching with interest the reforms that CEO Howard Stringer
undertakes from here on out.

Implications for Toshiba
The semiconductor segment is a core one for Toshiba, generating more than half of its total OP, and the ramp-up of next-generation system LSI, chiefly for game equipment, together with growth in NAND flash memory, is one of the growth drivers in the semiconductor segment.

We see three key points with regards to game console chips: 1) Depreciation on logic chip
lines could be absorbed if company begins turning out game-console chips in substantial
volume, 2) the RSX graphics processor for the PS3 is a foundry product for Toshiba (i.e., it
is the subcontracted manufacturer), so if yields rise, earnings will get a boost (we expect
this to happen from late FY3/08), and 3) the problem for Toshiba is getting to grips at an
early stage with next-generation processes at the 45nm node and below. Next-generation
processes will require immense R&D expenses, and the time has come for the company to
start thinking about where it will raise the necessary funds and which firms it should
partner with.

CellCostAnalysis1.jpg


We performed a cost analysis after examining each of the specifications. First, the PS3’s Cell CPU is made from 12-inch wafers and uses 90nm processes, and we think initial production phases will entail considerable volumes of dummy wafers.

Next, we assume the effective usable area per wafer at 57,000mm2 having taken edge
exclusion (the narrow band on the outside of a wafer cannot be etched with a circuit pattern) into consideration. As we assume the Cell chip size at 235mm2, we calculate that around 243 chips can be derived from each wafer. While yields need to be additionally considered here, we forecast initial phase yields at around 30% as logic yields are typically low when lines are newly started up. We thus take 30% of an assumed 243 chips on a front-end process basis in arriving at an estimate of around 73 good chips. The back-end process comes next, and we forecast yields of around 75% during packaging
and testing processes.

We assume the number of chips derived will thus further decline from the 73 good chips yielded from front-end processes, ultimately amounting to 55 good chips. We calculate the final cost per chip to be $329 after aggregating processing costs, packaging costs, and testing costs, and dividing this total by 55, the number of good chips.

PS3CostAnalysis2.jpg


Using a similar methodology to that for the Cell, we also calculate the cost of producing each RSX (Realistic Sound eXperience) graphic chip in the initial mass production phase to be $93. Figure 7 shows a summary of costs, including the above plus around $60 for memory modules such as XDR and GDDR3, $45 for communications and other semiconductors, and $180 for a Blu-ray drive. (We have not included the cost of detachable HDDs in our calculations here, but estimate amounts of around $45 and $50, respectively, for 20GB and 40GB HDDs.) We estimate that direct material costs, mainly for components, will amount to $827. Adding overheads such as assembly and R&D expenses to this, we estimate that the initial phase cost will amount to $1,002 overall. This is more than ¥100,000 in Japanese yen terms, and we believe it highly likely that the manufacturing cost of the PS3 will be extremely high considering that it will come installed with a Cell chip that performs on a par with supercomputers and a next-generation Blu-ray disk.

That said, while we acknowledge that initial phase costs will most surely be high, we
anticipate a rapid decline in component manufacturing costs in line with improving yields and expansion of mass production. In particular, we expect that the cost of the Cell will fall
considerably from FY3/08 when 65nm processes are slated to begin. Furthermore, we
anticipate that the cost of Blu-ray disks will nearly halve in the next year and a half owing to mass production effects. In sum, we expect that costs for the PS3 will be extremely high in its first year of launch in FY3/07, and that this will likely have a substantial impact on Sony’s profitability. However, if 65nm processes begin as expected and get through the first year without a hitch, then we believe that it may be possible to achieve profitability at an early stage from a hardware perspective.

PS3vs360Analysis.jpg


Figure 8 shows a comparison of direct material costs for the PS3 and Xbox 360. In terms of the Xbox 360, using a similar methodology to that for the Cell, we calculate the cost per CPU to be around $180. This cost is much lower than compared with the PS3 Cell to the extent the CPU does not incorporate SOI (Silicon On Insulator) or new architectures.

We assume an overall cost of around $100 for graphics chips, around $48 for GDDR3
memory, $45 for a 20GB HDD, and expect that costs for DVD-ROM drives can be kept at
around $20 given their commodity-like nature, and thus estimate that direct materials costs for the Xbox 360 will come in close to 40% lower than those for the PS3.

Summing up our cost analysis from a hardware perspective, we believe the Xbox 360 has an advantage considering the potential to lower initial costs as the console uses parts based on PC components. On the other hand, the cost of the PS3 is high given that it employs high performance components such as the Cell and Blu-ray disk, but we believe there is considerable scope for ongoing cost reductions provided that the effects of higher
semiconductor yields and mass production of Blu-ray disks emerge.

PS3CostScenario.jpg


Reforms Sony needs to work on

Until now, the games business model largely hinged on making hardware profitable as early as possible and generating royalties from game title software. This essentially is also the business model underpinning the PS3 and Xbox 360. That said, each generational changeover tends to be accompanied by a jump in hardware performance and increasing costs overall, including R&D. Furthermore, bolstered graphics performance also leads to sharp increases in development costs for software suppliers as they endeavor to create content that suitably exploits improved hardware performance. However, the reality is that higher software costs cannot simply be passed onto consumers via selling prices. In particular, this situation becomes more noticeable the closer to a generational changeover the industry is.

We believe the games business is approaching a critical turning point. To recap, we doubt the consumer electronics business will be able to continue generating stable earnings from business models based on single products. We thus believe companies need to have several earnings drivers. The games business is a typical business with two earnings drivers, but we believe even the games industry will face increasing pressure to develop additional earnings drivers. In other words, we believe this industry is approaching a time when it will need to swiftly establish a third earnings source in addition to the hardware
and software aspects of the business.

The Xbox 360 has a built-in Media Center Extender for Windows XP, which allows it to
playback video images (such as TV programs and movies) stored, for example, on a PC. In addition to its existing business model, Microsoft, as part of its efforts to expand Xbox Live functionality, is working to establish a new earnings driver through the bolstering of its online services. By connecting to Xbox Live, users can do such things as shop online at the so-called marketplace, download game content, or exchange data with other users.

Other services that are possible include video chat and online tournament features, and we expect over time that the company will also increasingly look to incorporate sales of various digital data. Should such a situation eventuate, we believe it highly possible that the business could develop substantially to encompass the advertising industry (if the number of hits increases) and settlement functions for the financial services industry, for example.

While the Xbox 360 camp is saying that it aims to create a new network-centric culture, we
believe rather that this could ultimately develop into a fight for supremacy over who takes the initiative of pushing this business further to seize profits from the retail supply chain and furthermore encompass online shopping and the financial services and advertising industries. One feasible strategy for Japan’s consumer electronics manufacturers is to adamantly continue radically whittling down manufacturing costs. However, we believe Sony needs to aggressively pursue this kind of networking business and try to get a handle on these supply chain trends in view of the resources it has and its corporate culture.

We believe what Sony needs to do right away is to cut loose businesses that are not necessary for network consumer electronics and devote funds and resources to 1) technological development that will help differentiate itself from its peers and 2) to alliances and M&A in related and outside industries so that it can become the new dominant force in network consumer electronics. We therefore think Sony is at the stage of reviewing the businesses and supply chains that have supported it hitherto. Such reforms cannot be executed by personnel that have an emotional attachment to the past. The company’s recently announced restructuring plans represent a half-hearted attempt in our view and did not come as a surprise.

We intend to keep a close watch on reforms that CEO Howard Stringer implements going
forward.

There's WAAAAAAY more in this document, but there's no way I can post it all. So here's a summary of the important part, very fascinating read.

Thanks to: snatches
 

Mrbob

Member
How old is this? The scale starts at Q4 of 2005. If the original projection is $500 costs by Q4 06, perhaps it is actually lower. As these analysis usually tend to scale high. Perhaps we will see a $399.99 PS3 at launch w/ hdd included.
 

Amir0x

Banned
antipode said:
This was posted back when it came out - I think it was 5 months ago.

The date on the document is like October or something, so I didn't know if this was posted or not. I should have figured - GAF... but whatever. Can you link to the thread?
 

Mrbob

Member
sableholic said:
a loss of 500 $ per unit... thats a lot. Considering they even set the price at 450-500.

Sounds like the analysis was quoting a loss per unit from a potential spring release. The cost drops in half by Q1 07.
 

Beowvlf

Banned
This article is trash. Why the hell are they adding in the (completely arbitrary) $150 figure for mandatory R&D and other overhead, as if it's a quantifiable expense? It skews the figures, because it's not logical to assume a static figure is to be gained on each unit.

And does anyone honestly believe the PS3 will only cost Sony $189 to produce in January of 2008? :lol :lol :lol The early numbers are way too high, and the later numbers are way too low.

Absurdity. This article is a complete write off.
 

saelz8

Member
$507 Total cost estimate for production in Q4 06, how much of a loss do you guys think Sony are willing to take? I didnt follow PSP nor PS2 production, similar charts for those systems could give us a rough idea of the final price, so, if anyones got those stats - Get them in this thread ASAP.

Looking at this though, the idea that sony decided to delay to Q4 to ride with the decline in component manufacturing seems even more reasonable. Yes, I know prices fall, but when you see it on paper you realize it more. $658 for Q2, they would have had to take a huge loss. Q4 is within range of a competitive price, at a loss of course, but a more acceptable one.
 

antipode

Member
Amir0x said:
The date on the document is like October or something, so I didn't know if this was posted or not. I should have figured - GAF... but whatever. Can you link to the thread?

Hmm, sorry, my search skills aren't up to snuff. I remember bits and pieces of a silly accounting discussion that followed, though - some junior member was trying to argue that retailers charge a markup based upon the cost to manufacture something, even though a retailer probably wouldn't even know that number.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
so :

either

1) the analysts figures are all out of whack
2) the price is going to have to be higher than $500
3) the peripherals and games costs are going to have to way up! ;)

oops - didn't see the second condensed chart.
 
Leonsito said:
PS3CostAnalysis2.jpg


Seems accurate to me.

Me too. And this chart to me is a much better explaination for the PS3 delay to November than some unnamed BR copy protection reasons. Notice how dramatically the production costs drop from Q1 to Q4 ($750 to $507). I think PS3 was ready to launch in the Spring/Summer, but Sony was unwilling to take $300~400 loss per unit sold.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Is that 560ish per build before launch? Is that really THAT bad? Sony could sell at 399 and jack it up with bundles and shit ("required" accessories) and lose 100 dollars or so.

That's not quite the 900 dollars predicted.
 

saelz8

Member
monkeymagic said:
What kind of a hit did SCEI take on PSOne, PS2 and PSP on launch?

I want to know this too. If we can get the Nikkociti analysis of the PS2 and PSP manufacturing costs (Which I could imagine there are), we could do some cross referencing.

We could use similar statistics from other sources as well.
 
Quellex said:
I want to know this too. If we can get the Nikkociti analysis of the PS2 and PSP manufacturing costs (Which I could imagine there are), we could do some cross referencing.

We could use similar statistics from other sources as well.

Yes it could lead to some idea about price points.

Also as far as I can see 60GB HDD costs aren't in this analysis.

$399 w/ 60GB HDD would be a perfect price point for it.
 

Mmmkay

Member
Y2Kevbug11 said:
Is that 560ish per build before launch? Is that really THAT bad? Sony could sell at 399 and jack it up with bundles and shit ("required" accessories) and lose 100 dollars or so.

That's not quite the 900 dollars predicted.

The teardown on the 360 by iSuppli put their BoM at $525 for the premium pack, so it's not terribly unsurprising.

I think a lot of people dismissed the Nikko Citigroup analysis because it came along with Merrill Lynch's. While I think their numbers will be a little out as is expected with producing a study so far from launch, their 40 page study was very thorough and on the money for the most part. It's funny because their subtitle for the report was "A third earnings driver needed to complement hardware and software" and apparently KK stressed highly that they wanted third parties to consider e-commerce options as part of their online plans.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Shogmaster said:
I think PS3 was ready to launch in the Spring/Summer, but Sony was unwilling to take $300~400 loss per unit sold.
That's nonsense - basically you're saying that they have been witholding final devkits for months just because they felt like it. Even if they were just waiting for hardware costs to come down, they have absolutely nothing to gain by intentionally crippling software development - and if you were right, that's exactly what they are doing.

That falls in line perfectly with the transistor count for the chips.
But not anywhere in line with die-sizes, which have considerably more effect on costs then transistor counts.
Anyway 350$ per Cell is just absurd, original PS2 GS had a larger die area then current Cell and it was as hot as the sun(yields were horrifically bad) and noone suggested it would cost more then entire PS2 to produce.
But hey, maybe Sony DID loose over 500$ on every PS2 back then too, just everyone was too busy arguing over jaggies to notice :)
 

jett

D-Member
According to this, come launch time the total cost of this mofo will be $500? I guess Sony won't be losing that much.
 

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
jett said:
According to this, come launch time the total cost of this mofo will be $500? I guess Sony won't be losing that much.

Well I figured they'd be producing the first batch in Q3, not Q4...so I kind of accounted for the slight increase.
 
Fafalada said:
That's nonsense - basically you're saying that they have been witholding final devkits for months just because they felt like it. Even if they were just waiting for hardware costs to come down, they have absolutely nothing to gain by intentionally crippling software development - and if you were right, that's exactly what they are doing.

A HA!!! NOW THE TRUTH COMES OUT!!! So what is it Faf? RSX problems? Bad yeilds? SPILL IT!!!


But not anywhere in line with die-sizes, which have considerably more effect on costs then transistor counts.

CELL and XeCPU is both 90nm, correct? Isn't the die size ratio similar to the transistors? Also, RSX vs Xenos is dificult to compare in die size because Xenos is made into two seperate dies.

Anyway 350$ per Cell is just absurd, original PS2 GS had a larger die area then current Cell and it was as hot as the sun(yields were horrifically bad) and noone suggested it would cost more then entire PS2 to produce.

$350 is for the prototype. Q1 figures had it as $188 IIRC.

But hey, maybe Sony DID loose over 500$ on every PS2 back then too, just everyone was too busy arguing over jaggies to notice :)

Not even that could have made those jaggies feel any less jaggy. :lol
 

snatches

Member
Thanks for posting this Am. I was in the middle of work stuff and since then, I've been changing diapers. Fatherhood FTW.

I think this seems like a very accurate look at cost analysis. At just over $500 without a hard drive factored in, Sony could easily include the HDD and stand to lose just over $100 @ launch, ramping up to profitability within 6 months if they launch at $499 w/ HDD.

This is great news for Sony, if these estimates are accurate, and overall, they will be losing less per unit than they did at the PS2 launch.

Or, they could go for the jugular and sell it for $399, and still be reeling in money in the back end in the first year with bluray licensing and games sales and royalties. Overall, the delay made Sony's outlook much more rosy.

And probably factored as much into the delay as any BluRay issues, or, this is all just very convenient.

Sorry about this being old to some. I don't remember it being posted. It is however, a timely time to look at these factors.
 

Rhindle

Member
These numbers are so ancient, they are not at all worth discussing.

The projected cost reductions are in large measure a function of when production starts and how volumes ramp up. These numbers are based on the assumption that they would start production is Q4 05 and start selling in Q2 06. You could push back all the numbers by 6 months, but that wouldn't be very accurate either.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Shogmaster said:
SPILL IT!!!
Spill what? *angelface* Sony already publically stated shipping date for final devkits - June, yet if the machine was all ready to go for March launch, the final devkits should be in hands of devs at least two months ago.

CELL and XeCPU is both 90nm, correct? Isn't the die size ratio similar to the transistors?
When layouts are similar I guess. Anyway that chart shows Cell at nearly 400$ per unit, and XeCPU at half that, while trannie ratio isn't really 2:1 IIRC.

GPU stuff is harder to talk about since we don't even know the real transistor count and die sizes for RSX.

Not even that could have made those jaggies feel any less jaggy.
But but... look over there, it's Ken Kutaragi... *runs*
 
Fafalada said:
Spill what? *angelface* Sony already publically stated shipping date for final devkits - June, yet if the machine was all ready to go for March launch, the final devkits should be in hands of devs at least two months ago.

That's why I said Spring/Summer, hinting at more of July/August timeframe (which was my guess from months back). X360 launched in November, but they only had the final devkits couple of months before hand, so similar situation could have rolled out for PS3 (which I agree is far from ideal).

Anyways, this November launch thing definitely hints at problems more significant than mere BR delays though. Especially when BR players will be out in force in the market in May/June.

When layouts are similar I guess. Anyway that chart shows Cell at nearly 400$ per unit, and XeCPU at half that, while trannie ratio isn't really 2:1 IIRC.

234M in Cell vs. 165M isn't quite 2:1, but close enough. Doesn't matter though, since I think it's comparing pre-production cost for Cell and production cost of XeCPU for Q4 2005.

GPU stuff is harder to talk about since we don't even know the real transistor count and die sizes for RSX.

You not gonna share anything? :p
 
About $500 for the PS3 to mass produce sounds about .... right actually.

Sony took a similar loss on the PS2 initially IIRC (about $150/unit) ... of course this time the PS3 will probably be $399.99 at launch, rather than $299.99, but Sony's going to sell every single one in the launch window no problem, and then you get into 2007 and costs start to drop.

You also have to remember this -- Sony is getting away with highway robbery on the PS2 right now.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sony can make the PS2 now for as cheap as $50-$60/unit. Remember they co-own the fabs for the PS2, they've already mass produced 100 million of them (if you make 100 million of *anything* your costs come down significantly obviously), and make some of the components in house (the DVD drive and what not).

And they're continuing to charge $150 for each PS2.
 
soundwave05 said:
About $500 for the PS3 to mass produce sounds about .... right actually.

Sony took a similar loss on the PS2 initially IIRC (about $150/unit) ... of course this time the PS3 will probably be $399.99 at launch, rather than $299.99, but Sony's going to sell every single one in the launch window no problem, and then you get into 2007 and costs start to drop.

You also have to remember this -- Sony is getting away with highway robbery on the PS2 right now.

It wouldn't surprise me if Sony can make the PS2 now for as cheap as $50-$60/unit. Remember they co-own the fabs for the PS2, they've already mass produced 100 million of them (if you make 100 million of *anything* your costs come down significantly obviously), and make some of the components in house (the DVD drive and what not).

And they're continuing to charge $150 for each PS2.

You're right - PS2 will definitely help to shave $50 off the price of PS3.

Don't forget they're also making profit on PSP now so PS3 will be their only loss making console from November 2006.

All things point to a $399 price with HDD.
 
The other thing you have to remember is there's no magic rule that says Sony has to charge the equivalent of $399.99 USD for the Japanese or Euro markets either.

The PS2 launched at $299.99 US in North America, but was closer to $380 (in yen equivalent) in Japan.

Sony could easily charge an additional $50 (equiv. of $450 USD) in Japan and possibly even Europe if they want.

A $50-$100 loss on each PS3 early on has gotta be more than acceptable/expected by Sony.
 

Juice

Member
... so anything about how the Revolution is the opposite of that trend? Funny no one's even mentioned it here.

I mean, talking about the 360 and PS3 and discussing how the industry is more or less going to reach critical (non-profitable) mass this generation because of rising R&D and development costs and then to ignore how the Revolution's reason for existence is to eliminate both of those problems seems remarkably short-sighted.
 

Mrbob

Member
I dunno, Juice. This sounds like the same doom and gloom non profitable talk we heard about before the PS2 launched. A lot of hyperbole always happens before a generation starts, and then things tend to settle down.


soundwave05 said:
The other thing you have to remember is there's no magic rule that says Sony has to charge the equivalent of $399.99 USD for the Japanese or Euro markets either.

The PS2 launched at $299.99 US in North America, but was closer to $380 (in yen equivalent) in Japan.

Sony could easily charge an additional $50 (equiv. of $450 USD) in Japan and possibly even Europe if they want.

A $50-$100 loss on each PS3 early on has gotta be more than acceptable/expected by Sony.

Well things have changed. What if PS3 is higher priced in USA than Japan? I mean, look at the PSP. It currently is cheaper in Japan than it is in the USA. Also, the PS2 launched in USA nearly 6 months after Japan release. PS3 will probably cost nearly the same equivalent on launch day in all three territories.
 

Juice

Member
Mrbob said:
I dunno, Juice. This sounds like the same doom and gloom non profitable talk we heard about before the PS2 launched. A lot of hyperbole always happens before a generation starts, and then things tend to settle down.

Definitely true, except this is the first time where the number of unique gamers is actually noticeably declining. I'm convinced that if gaming continues to be a niche as opposed to mainstream industry, it's going to have to find some other way to butter its bread. Time will tell, though, as you're right--there's always someone to find at the beginning of every generation to tell you that either PC gaming is dead or gaming itself soon will be.
 
I think Sony is going to price the system at $400 or less and keep it at that price for a very long time.

This gen Sony kept PS2 at $300 for 1.5years in NA, I could see them trying to push that to 2 years in the next-gen. But I guess much of that depends on the amount of pricing pressure MS applies on Sony.
 

Mrbob

Member
Juice said:
Definitely true, except this is the first time where the number of unique gamers is actually noticeably declining. I'm convinced that if gaming continues to be a niche as opposed to mainstream industry, it's going to have to find some other way to butter its bread. Time will tell, though, as you're right--there's always someone to find at the beginning of every generation to tell you that either PC gaming is dead or gaming itself soon will be.

I guess I'm not following you. Is there some data saying the number of users is declining? Gaming is never going to be for everyone, and I would say the Playstation and especially Playstation 2 have already achieved critical mass.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
i'd suggest that the DS has proved that there is a whole slew of untapped gamers out there, so not sure any console has reached their critical mass yet.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
DCharlie said:
i'd suggest that the DS has proved that there is a whole slew of untapped gamers out there, so not sure any console has reached their critical mass yet.

DS is about 85 million units short of proving anything about the expansion of the industry.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Those headlines just don't make sense. 360 is made of pc commodity parts? Apart from the optical drive, its as custom as the ps3 - bespoke cpu, gpu, same ram. And where do they get the 30% yield from? Get a good yield and the price plummets. then there is $180 for the bluray.
 
Top Bottom