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[MechaX]

This video shows some of the big differences off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A&t=2m00s

The big thing is that your abilities in Ninja Gaiden 2 are balanced around fighting large amounts of enemies at once. In Sigma 2, they lowered the enemy count and compensated by increasing enemy health and strength, but since your moveset is basically the same, the game's balance gets thrown off.

Yeah, the biggest problem with Sigma 2 is at the very least, Hayashi and Team Ninja knew where to make changes based on common complaints, but did not know how to properly implement or balance things.

When trying to answer incendiary spamming, he not only lessens the total amount of enemies in encounters (Sigma 2's version of the return to Hayabusa village is absolutely notorious in how overboard Team Ninja went with this), but he ends up opening the door to some very strange balancing decisions (fucking one-hit kill grabs, due to the decreased enemy count, crowd control weapons like the Windmill Shuriken have drastically reduced effectiveness). Team Ninja decides to remove or alter some bosses (no one liked the Tunnel Worm in South America, and Gigadeath was near flat out broken on higher difficulties)... but then decides to add giant statue bosses that no one likes fighting. I don't even know about removing the Tests of Valor outright either.

And I guess to spice things up, he adds additional scenarios for characters where their playstyle is at least fun (Ayane and Momiji), but didn't get the memo that no one wants to fucking play as Rachel (where enemies and bosses a like can be stunned and subsequently recover faster than Rachel can swing her weapon).

 

[McLovin]

Seems like NG2 was a little too over the top, and NGS2 went too far the other way.

 

[bumpkin]

I played the crap out of NG Sigma+ on the Vita, will probably do the same if/when NG2 Sigma+ is made available as a PS+ freebie too.

...but in retrospect, I wouldn't have regretted the purchase of the first one on Vita if I had bought it and not gotten it for free. It was a fun, challenging romp.

 

[Vitor711]

And I guess to spice things up, he adds additional scenarios for characters where their playstyle is at least fun (Ayane and Momiji), but didn't get the memo that no one wants to fucking play as Rachel (where enemies and bosses a like can be stunned and subsequently recover faster than Rachel can swing her weapon).

Never understood why they added bonus characters. Rachel was a chore to play in Black, and still is, as for the other two, I never played NGS2 but it's complex enough to learn just Ryu, I don't want to switch to characters with less moves as a 'pace change'. Just let me keep playing and learning the main guy.

 

[IvorB]

Swapped the gore with purple mist. That seems to be the main beef as far as I can see.

 

[Vitor711]

Swapped the gore with purple mist. That seems to be the main beef as far as I can see.

Uh, hardly. Watch the video above, it's a pretty drastic change in places.

 

[katkombat]

All of these NG2 posts make me want to get it. Do I need to have beaten the first one? (I have the original version on Xbox, idk how different black is) I'm still thinking about picking this up just to have it but I would also like to wait and see. Oh boy, decisions.

Post from the other thread, I'll leave it here too.

Those gameplay vids look amazing!

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Holy shit @ the enemy count neuter.

Crazy... its like another game. Some really baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad decisions in Sigma!

 

[Flame Lord]

Huh, I wasn't aware that NGS2 was so looked down on. Nice to hear that after I finally decided to buy it.

 

[hwalker84]

I remember being excited for Sigma 2 only to be disappointed. Matter of fact both Sigmas were worse.

Ninja Gaiden Black > Sigma 1
Ninja Gaiden 2 > Sigma 2

 

[Sinatar]

1. They changed every single encounter in the game. You are literally playing a completely different game that just happens to occur in the same maps. Not only did they change every single encounter, they changed them all for the worse.
2. Neutered the violence and gore.

 

[GuardianE]

"Hated" is a strong word.

Most veterans of NG2 have a strong dislike for NGS2 because it is considered a gimped version. This is mostly due to the rearranged enemy encounters and the lower enemy count itself. NG2 was not perfect. It had severe design flaws because the game was pretty much unfinished. At the same time, NGS2 didn't really do anything to finish it, simply removed areas, and added additional problems.

For someone who doesn't have access to a 360, I still think that NGS2 is a fine way to go... it just won't be as genuine an experience. At the same time, NGS2 did introduce some decent new elements, like online mission mode and playable kunoichi (yes, I actually liked the kunoichi missions). Also, NGS2 had a way better Ayane model.

 

[m23]

I feel like replaying NG2 now because of this thread.

 

[oneida]

Watch this in full, with the captions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDAiYc_sy8A

Game over. That's it. Wrap the thread up. You're welcome.

The enemy hit points are different, the enemy placement is different, the blood is different, the bow ability to absorb souls is different, some entire levels and bosses are straight up deleted in Sigma 2.

If you care enough to make this thread, watch this video in full. You will know exactly why Ninja Gaiden 2 (360) is the definitive version. It's not even close.

That said, Sigma 2 is still fun, and I got it on PS3 and Vita. I enjoyed the extra content. But at no point in time does it replace the true Ninja Gaiden 2. Never.

The entire premise of adding stylistic finishing moves to rapidly take out enemies is because you have large numbers of enemies. The entire difficulty of enemies that have limbs missing being more dangerous is because they can hide in crowds. Even just one simple change, the number of enemies on screen, can fully, and completely, and irreversibly damage the entire point and pacing of the game as it was originally intended.

hahahah holy shit

Huh... I see the reasons have already been given. Just throwing this out here, but NG2 is currently $5.09 USD on the XBL Marketplace. Just sayin'

might bite so that I can ditch my disc copy

 

[TeddyShardik]

Basically, instead of polishing up what was bad in NG2 they just removed these parts and added different problems than the ones in the original to the game.

The only thing I really prefered was that Sigma 2 wasn't so cheap with all the off camera shurikens flying your way.

 

[danmaku]

Post from the other thread, I'll leave it here too.

Those gameplay vids look amazing!

You mean for story? No, you don't need it, and story is irrelevant in NG games anyway. However, NGB is still an excellent game, so you should play both.

 

[GameAddict411]

i didn't like both, manly because of the difficulty and level design. i just think at regular difficulty NGS1 is a lot more balanced and more cleverly designed. the intensity when ninjas surrounds you is just incredible, never had a similar feeling in any other game. i played NG2 immediately after it and it felt so boring in comparison, NGS2 even more.

 

[Oemenia]

Its more to do with the backlash of PS3 fanboys at the time hailing everything as the second coming.

 

[paolo11]

Ninja Gaiden 2 is better than NGS 2. No doubt about that.

The thing I like about NGS 2 is that they have more stable performance but NG 2 however NGS 2 removed a lot of stuff like gore or blood.


Also, online mode is a no IMO for Ninja Gaiden. I mean, yeah, I got the platinum for NGS2 (and 3 and RE) but online should not be there. Keep the mission mode single player like Black or NG 2. It's more satisfying. Plus, online is extremely laggy.

 

[Q8D3vil]

I played NG 2 when it was released and im playing NGS2 right now.
Im enjoying Sigma because there isnt a lot of games with that deep combat but i agree its an inferior version slower version to NG2. Its fun nonetheless .

 

[Llyranor]

Changed the exhilarating enemy encounters into boring fights.

Removed the best part of the game, the Trials of Valor. WHY?

To be fair, it removed/fixed/'streamlined' some of the obtuse non-combat elements that got in the game's way.

I also enjoyed the online coop to some extent. Unfortunately, the actual missions were very limited (as well as each only having a specific difficulty), so it didn't have much lasting value. Why couldn't they just implement NG2's vastly superior mission pack or trials of valor here?

I don't care at all about the inclusion or exclusion of gore. My dissatisfaction in Sigma2 stems from the gameplay.

 

[stn]

AFAIK, the removal of gore and other elements made it more casual than NG2. Vanilla NG2 is great once you install it, then its only real flaw is some really broken/cheap enemies. But the combat is the best in the franchise, and this is coming from someone whose favorite action game ever is NGB.

 

[paolo11]

AFAIK, the removal of gore and other elements made it more casual than NG2. Vanilla NG2 is great once you install it, then its only real flaw is some really broken/cheap enemies. But the combat is the best in the franchise, and this is coming from someone whose favorite action game ever is NGB.

That spam Incidenary Shurikan ninjas are cheap as hell. Hehehe..

But I'd rather take that than Cheap Elizabet who has too many I-frames (NGS 2 make Elizabet OP most especially on Team Missions).

 

[GuardianE]

Also, online mode is a no IMO for Ninja Gaiden. I mean, yeah, I got the platinum for NGS2 (and 3 and RE) but online should not be there. Keep the mission mode single player like Black or NG 2. It's more satisfying. Plus, online is extremely laggy.

I vehemently disagree.

Just because Team Ninja employed shit-tier netcode doesn't mean that online shouldn't be an option. You can balance encounters around two players and have separate single player trials. We're long overdue for decent co-op character action experiences, though Bayonetta 2 may change that.

 

[RagingAvatar]

That spam Incidenary Shurikan ninjas are cheap as hell. Hehehe..

But I'd rather take that than Cheap Elizabet who has too many I-frames (NGS 2 make Elizabet OP most especially on Team Missions).

Now I know that many people will lol and yell "NOOB!" BUT..
What's an 'i-frame'?

 

[GuardianE]

Now I know that many people will lol and yell "NOOB!" BUT..
What's an 'i-frame'?

Invincibility frames.

 

[ELAMOR]

what about sigma 1 for vita is good?

 

[GuardianE]

what about sigma 1 for vita is good?

I think its framerate is 30, so it starts off on poor footing. Otherwise, I don't think it's so bad of a port from what I remember reading. Definitely not the best way to play, but not as bad as Sigma 2 on Vita.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

what about sigma 1 for vita is good?

Not really, but some will try to convince you it is.

Buy Black on the OG or 360 and experience the game as it's meant to be experienced.

 

[paolo11]

I vehemently disagree.

Just because Team Ninja employed shit-tier netcode doesn't mean that online shouldn't be an option. You can balance encounters around two players and have separate single player trials. We're long overdue for decent co-op character action experiences, though Bayonetta 2 may change that.

Well, I'd rather have Team Ninja make a meaty single player like NG Black or NG 2 that crappy net code online with cheap bossess and dumb trials.

Also, you say, "You can balance encounters around two players and have separate single player trials"?

If Team Ninja does that, why not? I'm all for it. Did they even think of doing that? Heck, play NG 3 (the original one, not Razor's Edge) and try beating it solo on some of the Mission mode on harder difficulties.

I will stand by my statement. Ninja Gaiden does not need online mode at all. NGB and NG 2 was great without it.

 

[360pages]

I will always prefer NG2 over Sigma2 of reasons probably already listed in the topic.

With it actually having a new game plus mode, and feeling tighter in terms of control.

 

[paolo11]

Now I know that many people will lol and yell "NOOB!" BUT..
What's an 'i-frame'?

Invisible frames, brother. The way I explain it is sometimes a character can do an action or a move that makes them invisible for a bit.

 

[bagandscalpel]

But I'd rather take that than Cheap Elizabet who has too many I-frames (NGS 2 make Elizabet OP most especially on Team Missions).

Speaking of Elizabet, was her behavior the same in the original game? Where she DECIDES when she wants to be put into hitstun or not?

 

[UrbanRats]

I vehemently disagree.

Just because Team Ninja employed shit-tier netcode doesn't mean that online shouldn't be an option. You can balance encounters around two players and have separate single player trials. We're long overdue for decent co-op character action experiences, though Bayonetta 2 may change that.

I agree, when the lag wasn't total trash, that coop mission mode was a lot of fun for me.
At least when you were playing with someone decent, as the AI partner was absolute shit in some of the harder challenges.

Invisible frames, brother. The way I explain it is sometimes a character can do an action or a move that makes them invisible for a bit.

Wut? Invincibility frames make you "invincible" during those frames, so you don't suffer damage or staggering from enemy attacks.
I guess in the past that was also conveyed by the character flashing on screen, like in beat em ups, but that's not true for all i-frames.

 

[GuardianE]

Well, I'd rather have Team Ninja make a meaty single player like NG Black or NG 2 that crappy net code online with cheap bossess and dumb trials.

Also, you say, "You can balance encounters around two players and have separate single player trials"?

If Team Ninja does that, why not? I'm all for it. Did they even think of doing that? Heck, play NG 3 (the original one, not Razor's Edge) and try beating it solo on some of the Mission mode on harder difficulties.

I will stand by my statement. Ninja Gaiden does not need online mode at all. NGB and NG 2 was great without it.

NG doesn't need an online mode. NG also doesn't need half the weapons that are in NG2 and NGB, but it made for a better game. Saying the game doesn't need an element isn't really a good reason to not have it included.

Having a meaty single player campaign and having a halfway decent online co-op mission mode are not mutually exclusive things (despite what publishers might try to tell you). If we're living in a fantasy world where Team Ninja has their act together and can actually produce a NG that lives up to its predecessors, then I don't see why they also can't implement an online co-op that's not terrible.

NG3 was just flawed to the core. It's not really worth discussing. I beat it, and moved on because it wasn't worth my time.

These games are ripe for co-op gameplay. It opens up completely new possibilities and co-operative movesets. There's so much potential to be had. Whether Team Ninja can do it or not is a completely separate question.

 

[Vitor711]

Not really, but some will try to convince you it is.

Buy Black on the OG or 360 and experience the game as it's meant to be experienced.

If you only have access to a Vita, Sigma 1 port is absolutely fine. The only issue is the halved frame rate which, while less than ideal, at least it's stable when it matters.

Game is otherwise a fantastic port and I really enjoyed my time with it.

 

[bidguy]

Invisible frames, brother. The way I explain it is sometimes a character can do an action or a move that makes them invisible for a bit.

you mean invincibility frame right ?

its basically a period of time in which you cant get hurt (or the enemy)

 

[Skele7on]

Way easier and no gore are basically the reason.
If you play ninja gaiden, it's more for the reverse if this.

and thread.

 

[Revan]

Huh... I see the reasons have already been given. Just throwing this out here, but NG2 is currently $5.09 USD on the XBL Marketplace. Just sayin'

Thanks for this!

Although I've heard the digital version runs much worse then disc version - can anyone confirm?

EDIT:

what about sigma 1 for vita is good?

Outside of the horrendous bow controls the game plays pretty much like Sigma on the PS3, only at 30fps (vita) as opposed to 60 fps (ps3).

The IQ is amazing for the game however.

If you got it when it was free on PS+ or can find it cheap - do it. Portable NG is awesome!

 

[360pages]

It's also the fact that the females were awful to play as in Sigma 2, they got much better in NG3RE, but that game has its own fair share of problems with putting you in huge ass arena's to fight wave after wave of enemies (Only really select moments in the past NG games did this) and allowing them to do far too much damage retaliative to the amount that were thrown at you, especially on master ninja and Ultimate ninja.

NG2, you took damage from messing up, but it was lessened because they realized the sheer amount of enemies on screen hindered that. That is why you take more damage in Sigma 2 because there is less foes.

NG3RE has the damage out put of a sigma game, but with the enemy numbers of NG2 added to the fact that enemies in NG3RE have far more health and you only have one way to heal, and that game is a nightmare.

 

[paolo11]

Speaking of Elizabet, was her behavior the same in the original game? Where she DECIDES when she wants to be put into hitstun or not?

I think NGS 2, she is a bit more evasive. In NG 2, she takes damage quite easily compared to NGS 2.

I agree, when the lag wasn't total trash, that coop mission mode was a lot of fun for me.
At least when you were playing with someone decent, as the AI partner was absolute shit in some of the harder challenges.


Wut? Invincibility frames make you "invincible" during those frames, so you don't suffer damage or staggering from enemy attacks.
I guess in the past that was also conveyed by the character flashing on screen, like in beat em ups, but that's not true for all i-frames.

Mission mode coop is fun if it lag is not trash. Unfortunately in NGS 2, it could be a mix up. NG 3 is super trash.

Plus, I think that's what I meant about I-frames, no? I guess I did not word it right. Hehehehe...

NG doesn't need an online mode. NG also doesn't need half the weapons that are in NG2 and NGB, but it made for a better game. Saying the game doesn't need an element isn't really a good reason to not have it included.

Having a meaty single player campaign and having a halfway decent online co-op mission mode are not mutually exclusive things (despite what publishers might try to tell you). If we're living in a fantasy world where Team Ninja has their act together and can actually produce a NG that lives up to its predecessors, then I don't see why they also can't implement an online co-op that's not terrible.

NG3 was just flawed to the core. It's not really worth discussing. I beat it, and moved on because it wasn't worth my time.

These games are ripe for co-op gameplay. It opens up completely new possibilities and co-operative movesets. There's so much potential to be had. Whether Team Ninja can do it or not is a completely separate question.

It is not possible to have a meaty SP campaign with decent online Coop on a NG game, brother. That's not going to happen. It's like saying Pacquaio vs Mayweather will happen very soon.

Maybe other games are ripe for co-op gameplay but not NG. Heck, what's the co-op moveset for NGS 2 or NG 3/RE? Rachel spinning while Ryu attacks the bosses? 360 T(or Y in 360) together forever in Razor's Edge?

Like I said, Ninja Gaiden does not need online. Of course, this is my opinion. Just keep it single player with long epic campaign and satisfying movesets without online.

Plus, don't get me started with MP fighting Ninjas on Razor's Edge or NG 3.

Also, Guarian E, I am not trying to fight against you or something. I am just saying my humble opinion. I like this discussion, brother.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Give us a next gen staircase segment. 60fps, 1080, more enemies.

Just that epic staircase fight.

Fuck it I need to play it right now, that slowdown is so fucking epic

 

[paolo11]

Give us a next gen staircase segment. 60fps, 1080, more enemies.

Just that epic staircase fight.

Fuck it I need to play it right now, that slowdown is so fucking epic

Ohhh, my dream come true.

If TN decides to make a HD collection, use NG2 as basis.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

If you only have access to a Vita, Sigma 1 port is absolutely fine. The only issue is the halved frame rate which, while less than ideal, at least it's stable when it matters.

Game is otherwise a fantastic port and I really enjoyed my time with it.

This is like saying Bayonetta on PS3 is perfectly fine. It's a lie. It's not perfectly fine, it's settling for a terrible port and in this case, one that's severely dumbed down compared to the mainline series.

 

[Sub_Level]

I beat the demo for Sigma 2 on PS3 on Master Ninja like it was NOTHING.

Izuna Drop Izuna Drop Izuna Drop

I should not be able to do that. Played the 360 version to the halfway point and would prefer that despite the lack of polish. It was far more visceral. And the word visceral has been used so often but Ninja Gaiden 2 on 360 was visceral.

 

[GuardianE]

It is not possible to have a meaty SP campaign with decent online Coop on a NG game, brother. That's not going to happen. It's like saying Pacquaio vs Mayweather will happen very soon.

Maybe other games are ripe for co-op gameplay but not NG. Heck, what's the co-op moveset for NGS 2 or NG 3/RE? Rachel spinning while Ryu attacks the bosses? 360 T(or Y in 360) together forever in Razor's Edge?

Like I said, Ninja Gaiden does not need online. Of course, this is my opinion. Just keep it single player with long epic campaign and satisfying movesets without online.

Plus, don't get me started with MP fighting Ninjas on Razor's Edge or NG 3.

Also, Guarian E, I am not trying to fight against you or something. I am just saying my humble opinion. I like this discussion, brother.

I just think it is possible. I don't think you have to make those sacrifices to the campaign, and I think that Itagaki and old Team Ninja, if they were given enough time, could have created something special. With the current Team Ninja? My faith is admittedly shaken, but I still think it's possible and I'd love to see it.

There aren't any co-op moves right now, but that's what I'd like to see expanded upon. And until we get a decent co-op experience in our hands, it's hard to say how it would change the gameplay. The current implementation is hamfisted and amateurish, but I think they could design it to not be that way. Collaborative UTs, windpathing off your partner, juggling enemies into partner UTs, different tracking after a guillotine throw... the current co-op implementation is just the healing, double Ninpo, and bugs like the Rachel spinning.

I think that DMC would be especially good for co-op play, but I think NG would benefit similarly. If it's one or the other, I'd take the long and satisfying campaign any day of the week, but I just don't think we necessarily need to limit ourselves.

No worries, I think the debate is more over prioritization of resources and the feasability of such a mode.

 

[paolo11]

I just think it is possible. I don't think you have to make those sacrifices to the campaign, and I think that Itagaki and old Team Ninja, if they were given enough time, could have created something special. With the current Team Ninja? My faith is admittedly shaken, but I still think it's possible and I'd love to see it.

There aren't any co-op moves right now, but that's what I'd like to see expanded upon. And until we get a decent co-op experience in our hands, it's hard to say how it would change the gameplay. The current implementation is hamfisted and amateurish, but I think they could design it to not be that way. Collaborative UTs, windpathing off your partner, juggling enemies into partner UTs, different tracking after a guillotine throw... the current co-op implementation is just the healing, double Ninpo, and bugs like the Rachel spinning.

I think that DMC would be especially good for co-op play, but I think NG would benefit similarly. If it's one or the other, I'd take the long and satisfying campaign any day of the week, but I just don't think we necessarily need to limit ourselves.

No worries, I think the debate is more over prioritization of resources and the feasability of such a mode.

Man, you have amazing ideas about the next NG. Team Ninja should be reading this now. If they make a long epic campaign with those ideas for coop, NG will be back to its top form.

I'm amazed you think positive about the current franchise, my friend. I mean, I am a huge NG fan but this Hayashi person made things extremely worse. Removing essense, nerfing a lot of moves, extremely cheap enemies (Alchemist minions have as much I-frames as Elizabet???), short campaign, ridiculous and laggy mission modes, etc. I lost faith. Do you know how many cuss chants I make per minute trying to platinum 3 and Razor's Edge?

If Team Ninja makes those suggestions you made plus an epic single player campaign, I will be happy about it.

 

[UrbanRats]

Plus, I think that's what I meant about I-frames, no? I guess I did not word it right. Hehehehe...

Invisible = something that cannot be seen.
Invincible = something that cannot be beaten.

 

[nOoblet16]

I like the fact that NG2 had way more enemies but there are a few things I hate the most about that game and especially one of them keep me from going back to play it after having experienced Sigma 2.

1) Incendiary Shuriken. This shit is cheap as hell, way too frequent (sometimes 2 in a second in later levels) and most are off screen. Since they are unblockable and the game has a high enemy count it just makes it unbearable for me. This is the entire reason why I am put off from NG2 even though I want to play it.

2) The fuckin worm and the slowdown in the "epic staircase fight". It wasn't so epic for me to play it in slow motion.


NGS2 added a few boss fights that was good.

 

[dark10x]

Who said the PS3 version always had the better graphics?

It's kind of a mix, though. Some areas do look better on PS3 plus it runs at a higher resolution and more stable frame-rate. The 360 version bombs out hard fairly often and the resolution is sub-720p. It looks really unpolished.

I wish NG2 would have been finished properly as opposed to changed into Sigma 2.

This is like saying Bayonetta on PS3 is perfectly fine. It's a lie. It's not perfectly fine, it's settling for a terrible port and in this case, one that's severely dumbed down compared to the mainline series.

Bullshit.

NG on Vita is a stable 30 fps. It's not optimal but its reliable and the game speed was modified to play correctly at 30 fps. Bayonetta attempts to run at 60 fps on PS3 but it fails most of the time and winds up running in slow motion as a result. It doesn't play correctly and feels very inconsistent.

It's the worst way to play the original game but that doesn't mean it's straight up bad. As a handheld game it still works and it looks excellent.