I don't think they ever said that about gameplay, only set pieces. It definitely does show, especially in Uncharted. The jokes about Nathan Drake being a serial killer may just be jokes but they show that the story and moment-to-moment gameplay are not fully in-sync. In UC4 for example they added further stealth elements just because they were coming off TLoU and more and more action games are using stealth. I never got the sense that it influenced the story or really many other parts about the game. If Naughty Dog was taking a Nintendo approach with The Last of Us then Ellie and Joel's interactions would be the entire core of the game instead of just a very small part of it.
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Nintendo is always putting play first (Game Maker's Toolkit)
- Thread starter dreampeppers99
- Start date
I don't think they ever said that about gameplay, only set pieces. It definitely does show, especially in Uncharted. The jokes about Nathan Drake being a serial killer may just be jokes but they show that the story and moment-to-moment gameplay are not fully in-sync. In UC4 for example they added further stealth elements just because they were coming off TLoU and more and more action games are using stealth. I never got the sense that it influenced the story or really many other parts about the game. If Naughty Dog was taking a Nintendo approach with The Last of Us then Ellie and Joel's interactions would be the entire core of the game instead of just a very small part of it.
JonnyDBrit
Member
Star Fox Zero I think is one of those things where overly focusing on a mechanic without properly integrating it, especially where the outcome isn't possible through another, simpler method, lends itself to poorer design. Its an interesting topic to look into, and I hope its one Mark better covers in future.
To elaborate on this even further, I think it was Iwata who remarked that Mario Kart 8 in particular had made it harder to justify a new F-Zero games, as the latter had now reached crazy, gravity defying courses and spin for speed mechanics, making F-Zero redundant.
I feel like Nintendo's view on the matter is far more heavily weighted towards what would be unique and interesting for their own devs to do, rather than simply providing more of what the customer is already known to want. The problem in this regard is that the mainstream games industry is kinda terrible at keeping older titles readily accessible. Nintendo's continued usage of physical backwards compatibility has mitigated this somewhat, but for franchises they've long left behind it becomes a real problem, especially if one wants to keep things legal.
The Albatross
Member
I understand it, but I'm frustrated with Nintendo, so the premise that they put gameplay first ahead of their asinine business strategy that frustrated parents around the holidays has me tickled.
I disagree, SFZ is expertly designed around the dual screens, the problem here is that many people can't be assed to learn how to control it. The way the game evolves, opens up and shows its secrets once you give it a chance and use both screens properly is fantastic.
Nope he understands the core premise but he is on point when they don't really do because of them limiting avilablity of an item.
It's not a positive thing for anyone but scalpers and It's consistently Nintendo doing it.
Exactly.
Really puts into perspective why Nintendo makes a lot of seemingly weird decisions with the games it releases, like having the only Metroid game in recent years be a 4 player online co-op game when plenty of people would be happy with Super Metroid 2. It's clear they don't have a good idea of how to expand upon the gameplay of Metroid.
It's also interesting to think about how this mindset has impacted games on a more micro-level, like how so many of the new characters in Smash 4 bring some new mechanic to the table. Shulk changes his attributes, Rosalina has Luma, Cloud has his Limit Break system, Ryu has different strengths of normals, etc. Even though it's a sequel to a long-running series and could easily coast along with minimal effort put into it, Sakurai still focused on adding characters that really brought something new to the table. At the same time, he also didn't add in things that had already been done before, like an expansive story mode a la SSE in Brawl, which was reasonably popular. He probably saw no reason to do so because it had already been done.
It's also interesting to think about how this mindset has impacted games on a more micro-level, like how so many of the new characters in Smash 4 bring some new mechanic to the table. Shulk changes his attributes, Rosalina has Luma, Cloud has his Limit Break system, Ryu has different strengths of normals, etc. Even though it's a sequel to a long-running series and could easily coast along with minimal effort put into it, Sakurai still focused on adding characters that really brought something new to the table. At the same time, he also didn't add in things that had already been done before, like an expansive story mode a la SSE in Brawl, which was reasonably popular. He probably saw no reason to do so because it had already been done.
LordRaptor
Member
Even if that is true - and it is vastly more likely that they are supplying to meet demand, but as with every "hot ticket" christmas item since pretty much forever scalpers grab all the stocks they can - it has fuck all to do with an analysis of game design, jfc.
rackham
Banned
I mean, that still kind of makes the title false.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Nintendo focuses on gameplay first and foremost.
In other news, water is wet.
In other news, water is wet.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Nintendo's focus on innovation is admirable. But they sure could have used a few more non-innovative iterations to pad out the shockingly sparse libraries of a few of their more recent consoles.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Mark Brown is Gaming Youtube's greatest gems. This is one of the best videos he's made.
ding ding ding!
John Kowalski
Banned
Video kind of oversights the fact that Nintendo is also really really really good at game design in general, and not just because they follow these core principles. They're masters of execution.
The one problem I have with Nintendo's approach is that when you pick one core thing and make a game around it it sometimes gets a bit hard to play an entire game of it. Sometimes I don't feel compelled to finish Nintendo games even though I like them because it's just more of that mechanic. Having a bit of a carrot on the stick helps sometimes.
TheDinoman
Member
I don't think I'd call SSE "reasonably popular". Yeah, I know some people do like it and wish Smash 4 had something similar, but when Brawl was first released, Subspace was dismissed by most people as being a long and bloated waste of development that could of gone into polishing the core multiplayer experience...which is what they kinda did with Smash 4.
I just think they didn't do a big story mode this time around because they were already pressured by working on two different versions of the games, one for 3DS and the other for Wii U. The whole "I didn't like the cut-scenes being leaked" thing he said always felt like damage control to me.
I know a lot of competitive players and people on message boards were glad that an SSE-like mode didn't pop up in Smash 4, but just anecdotally speaking, I know a bunch of more casual players that loved it and were quite disappointed that there wasn't some big story mode with cutscenes and multiple boss fights.
Still, you're probably right that Sakurai viewed it as a diversion from the core gameplay of the series and cut it for that reason. I'll concede that point. It was more like a Kirby game than a proper Smash Bros game .
I think the Arwing sections actually worked amazingly well when you put the first person perspective on your HDTV and 3rd person perspective on the Gamepad. That should have been the default way of doing things.
The game's biggest issue however is forcing sections with other vehicles that were very finicky and ruined the game's flow.
When the game worked, it was the best rail shooter I've ever played. Unfortunately, the good parts were broken up by too many bad parts that just didn't need to be there.
Yep. Nintendo games have a pureness to them that still hasn't been matched by anyone else. Especially because the visual style of the games they make is so heavily influenced by the controls and gameplay they set out to achieve.
It leads to their games having very fleshed out forms of interactivity. Like, in SM3DW, nearly every single object on screen can be interacted with using very limited controls.
What the hell are all these posts about product supply even doing here? What does a video about Nintendo the developer putting gameplay first have to do with Nintendo the distributor not providing adequate stock of a product?
On topic: the video's great, as Mark Brown's videos usually are. Nintendo messes up from time to time, but this core principle of theirs has really served them well from a broader perspective. It also makes me realize that wanting Nintendo to do more different stuff with new characters and cool settings is just as much about wanting them to invent something different from a gameplay perspective. You won't get the settings and the characters you want without the gameplay to drive it.
On topic: the video's great, as Mark Brown's videos usually are. Nintendo messes up from time to time, but this core principle of theirs has really served them well from a broader perspective. It also makes me realize that wanting Nintendo to do more different stuff with new characters and cool settings is just as much about wanting them to invent something different from a gameplay perspective. You won't get the settings and the characters you want without the gameplay to drive it.
Saw this come up in my subscriptions feed this morning and thoroughly enjoyed it. I've been going through Mark's channel ever since that WW dungeon analysis video of his was posted here and love how well he manages to dissect and explain how game designs and ideas either work or don't work.
These derailment attempts concerning the NES classic in here are lol worthy.
These derailment attempts concerning the NES classic in here are lol worthy.
Totally missed this vid, good share!
It may be because I'm from the 80's and I was pretty much raised on Gameboy for a fucking long time but this is exactly the focus that I like in the games I play.
Interestingly about SMB, Miyamoto talked about wanting to make shootemup parts but decided against.
In the end the team behind SML put the idea back in
.
Thinking about the gameboy more, it's incredible the kind and the length some of the games were. You basically had a mostly similar experience as a NES in your pocket so to speak.
Let's not disparage other devs who aren't putting the same priorities either, it just so happens that they have other and try their best to make it the way they want.
It may be because I'm from the 80's and I was pretty much raised on Gameboy for a fucking long time but this is exactly the focus that I like in the games I play.
Interestingly about SMB, Miyamoto talked about wanting to make shootemup parts but decided against.
In the end the team behind SML put the idea back in
Thinking about the gameboy more, it's incredible the kind and the length some of the games were. You basically had a mostly similar experience as a NES in your pocket so to speak.
Let's not disparage other devs who aren't putting the same priorities either, it just so happens that they have other and try their best to make it the way they want.
Cool video. Made me super nostalgic for all the amazing experiences I've had with Nintendo. Despite how much they hate their customers, they're still by far my favourite game company.
And mannnnn I'm assuming he was running the Wii games through Dolphin because they looked so sharp.
And mannnnn I'm assuming he was running the Wii games through Dolphin because they looked so sharp.
Yeah, I think as good as the results of this philosophy might be in terms of design, us fans of their less popular series really get the shaft because of it. They do have IPs that don't necessarily always innovate and tend to iterate a lot, but that's only the case for extremely popular ones like Mario and its many spinoffs. I remember that at some point I was sure a new F-Zero and Metroid games were coming to Wii U... I mean, the console was a failure and they were still making a lower budget Star Fox game for it to please fans, surely they could make those too to avoid droughts in a way that kept loyal fans satisfied, right? Sigh.
Also it's a bit hypocritical of Miyamoto to talk like that about F-Zero when the NSMB series exist, and if I remember right, at one point he wanted to straight up remake A Link to The Past for 3DS, but (thankfully) Aonuma and company stepped in and made ALBW instead, making it a pseudo sequel as a compromise.
Clearly they're not above iterating (which is fine!) when there's "easy" money involved.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Oh man, I love Game Maker's Toolkit, this one should be interesting.
humansarehorses
Member
Is that why they made so many poorly controlled games?
DoctorFling
Member
Pretty balanced video, shows when this philosophy works and when it fails (Starfox Zero especially).
Makes me even sadder that Iwata Asks is gone. (along with Mr. Iwata himself of course.)
Makes me even sadder that Iwata Asks is gone. (along with Mr. Iwata himself of course.)
TheDinoman
Member
Yeah, something like NSMB is a lot cheaper to make than F-Zero, and the first two games sold like 50x times more than any F-Zero game combined.
NSMB 2 and U happened because Nintendo looked at the sales of NSMB DS and Wii and thought they could strike lightning again.
LordRaptor
Member
They also tried something radically different with NSMB Wii with a heavy focus on multiplayer, that was certainly no small feat.
NSMB2 is one of their 1rst game to enable DLC and they try to change the focus of the game with basically making the game a gigantic coin rush focus. It would be interesting to see how much it changed the game design to make the game work.
U, there's enough out there to show why they wanted to make the game they actually made.
I'm just saying sure it might be bean counters that made sure the game was going to be made but they still put the focus on gameplay first instead of just another retread.
They've been working on it for ever though.
Finally got a moment to watch the video, agree 100% with everything on it, Mark is such a great analyst! The video explains why I like Nintendo more than any other company and why the current AAA scene doesn´t speak to me. I liked that he took some time to aknowledge some games where this gameplay focus failed.
RampagingSoul
Member
Love Mark Brown's Game Maker's Toolkit series! I've especially loved his look into Zelda's dungeon design with his Boss Keys series that is still going on with him just finishing Wind Waker a while back. I think every video I've watched of his has been interesting and well-thought out too.
humansarehorses
Member
The past two gens were chock full of them like Other M, Phantom Hourglass and KI: U. Those games had garbage controls.
While that's likely true, it doesn't change the fact that the entire nsmb series still follows the trend put forth in the video. multiplayer, coin rush, boost mode and challenges.
As much as nsmb is aesthetically bland, it pulls its weight in gameplay.
Aaronrules380
Member
I'd say two things. First, Phantom Hourglass isn't really poorly controlled. KI:U fit the game and its need really well (I think the actual gameplay would suffer from duel analog's slower and less responsive nature), they're just uncomfortable for many players. But keep in mind that this applies largely to EAD (or rather EPD now) and less so as you get into other studios, particularly second party ones like Intelligent Systems. And Other M wasn't made by Nintendo
TheDinoman
Member
Well, technically, Yoshio Sakamoto (lead director of Other M and you know, a Nintendo designer) was the guy who enforced the Wiimote on its side control scheme, as a way to emulate NES controls.
As crazy as it was, it does kinda make sense when you consider that Sakamoto originally wanted Other M to actually be a 2.5D game instead of a 3D character action game. It was obviously Team Ninja that requested it to be like that and Sakamoto obliged, but they thought they'd be able to utilize the Nunchuck and base the gameplay around it. However, Sakamoto was hellbent on making the game control with the Wiimote only, so alas.
humansarehorses
Member
KI: U's controls were so piss poor and it's hardly necessary for the game either because there are superior on-rails shooters and action shooters which use traditional controls that work incredibly well (like Sin and Punishment: Star Successor and Vanquish). Even ignoring how awkward it was to hold the system while playing Uprising, they tried to shove so many actions to a shoulder button, the control pad and the touchscreen. Dashing was tied to how quickly you moved the control pad rather than moving it in combination with pressing some other button (which is how games with good controls go about implementing dash mechanics) and because the platforms in the TPS sections don't have invisible walls, it's all too easy to fall to your death just because you accidentally moved the circle pad too quickly.
What an awful control scheme.
And Other M was directed by Sakamoto. He most certainly had the discretion to change the controls as he saw fit. He decided to have the game control poorly.
TheDinoman
Member
To be fair, that's just how Sakurai designs his games. "Tap to dash" is kind of a trademark of his, it's how movement works in Smash Bros. and Kirby.
I think the real problem here is mainly the circle pad. Something like Smash gets by easier with its dashing controls because the games (on consoles anyway) utilize proper analog sticks which are far more precise than the circle pad, which is generally too finicky. In a way Uprising kinda foreshadowed some of the control complaints people would have with Smash 3DS.
Glass Shark
Banned
Nintendo is always putting unskippable tutorials first
Sir_Crocodile
Member
then why are the cables on the nes mini so short
abstract alien
Member
Not gonna lie, that part almost sold me on Doom. With so much praise, I really should give it a shot and see what the fuss is all about. Since it's seemingly mechanic heavy, I'm more likely to enjoy it.
Askherserenity
Member
This is some pretty good PR nonsense.
Agree with everything in the video. Mark Brown is so good at this.
Agree with everything in the video. Mark Brown is so good at this.