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[wsippel]

There were no new announcements (next week), just hands-on time with games.

There were a couple of announcements, just no high profile stuff. Still, Blazblue II coming to 3DS was new, Rabbids in Time was new, Gundam too I believe, and some really low profile stuff.

 

[Vinterbird]

Rayman maybe? The game hasn't been 'officially' announced yet, I guess?

No clue, but a guess would be it is a digital game, since they haven't said a word about that, and coming out of the gates with a good and well produced game for 3DSware will give it some needed attention.

There were a couple of announcements, just no high profile stuff. Still, Blazblue II coming to 3DS was new, Rabbids in Time was new, Gundam too I believe, and some really low profile stuff.

The Rabbids game has not been formally announced - no press release and so on. Dunno about the other ones, but I haven't seen any press stuff for them yet.

 

[Mockingbird]

Just got home. Man today was not crowded in the morning at all! The longest line was for Zelda, which was 120 minutes but the rest had lines that wern't too long, really. I got interviewed by CNN, and the lady said there wasn't too many people today.

Played Zelda, Kid Icarus, Resident Evil, Steel Diver, and Pilotwings Resort. My favorite was Kid Icarus then Pilotwings because I love Pilotwings. Buying all the above. The 3-d was awesome! For Zelda it was like looking into one of those themed museum exhibits behind the a glass panel. The 3-d doesn't pop-outwards, it seemed like. Buying one at launch. The RE Demo sucked. You have 8 mins to play and then all you do is walk and kill three zombies and the demo ends. No items to pick up. I finished it with like 3 mins left so I got to do it twice but I died at the end of my second play-through. Good graphics though.

There was also a live Iwata's ask for Nintendogs+Cats at the end of the day, which I guess you all saw here.

 

[cw_sasuke]

So what did Hino reveal about Fantasy Life and its online components ?

 

[VOOK]

Just got home. Man today was not crowded in the morning at all! The longest line was for Zelda, which was 120 minutes but the rest had lines that wern't too long, really. I got interviewed by CNN, and the lady said there wasn't too many people today.

Sheeeeeeeet

 

[EatChildren]

No clue, but a guess would be it is a digital game, since they haven't said a word about that, and coming out of the gates with a good and well produced game for 3DSware will give it some needed attention.

I guess so. A major IP from Nintendo maybe?

 

[Freezie KO]

Just got home. Man today was not crowded in the morning at all! The longest line was for Zelda, which was 120 minutes but the rest had lines that wern't too long, really. I got interviewed by CNN, and the lady said there wasn't too many people today.

Played Zelda, Kid Icarus, Resident Evil, Steel Diver, and Pilotwings Resort. My favorite was Kid Icarus then Pilotwings because I love Pilotwings. Buying all the above. The 3-d was awesome! For Zelda it was like looking into one of those themed museum exhibits behind the a glass panel. The 3-d doesn't pop-outwards, it seemed like. Buying one at launch. The RE Demo sucked. You have 8 mins to play and then all you do is walk and kill three zombies and the demo ends. No items to pick up. I finished it with like 3 mins left so I got to do it twice but I died at the end of my second play-through. Good graphics though.

There was also a live Iwata's ask for Nintendogs+Cats at the end of the day, which I guess you all saw here.

How were the controls for Kid Icarus? Did holding the 3DS with one main support hand effect the angle at which you saw the 3D? Did you have to hold the 3DS at all while playing (or was it all supported by the kiosk/slave girls)?

What mode of Steel Diver was playable? The side-scrolling level? How did that play? What is the pacing like? Action heavy? Exploration heavy? Is the challenge in dealing with all the knobs and levers? Or is it a slow, strategic game?

 

[Vinterbird]

I guess so. A major IP from Nintendo maybe?

I thin they would hide that to E3, but Nintendo is so fucking unpredictable with this stuff. All I've been told is that it will be "neat and cool", and not much else.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

No clue, but a guess would be it is a digital game, since they haven't said a word about that, and coming out of the gates with a good and well produced game for 3DSware will give it some needed attention.

I'd say there's a good chance of that. We've heard nothing about 3DS Ware so far and (presumably) they'd want to give details about the online service on Jan 19. Unless of course they're not ready to launch 3DS Ware yet and are only gonna launch with Virtual Console and Classics 3D - ALA Wii)

Flipnote Studio 3D. BELIEVE!

 

[0405]

I went today, as well. I got there kind of late, so I was worried, but I was (pleasantly) surprised by how crowded it wasn't. I played Ridge Racer, the MGS3 demo, DOA, Street Fighter 4, Resident Evil and Kid Icarus.

It was a little hard for me to get used to the 3D effect, but that may have been due to the lighting? The overhead lighting was reflecting off of the screens, which could have caused the problem, I guess. I was most impressed with Resident Evil and MGS.

The fighters felt really difficult to play with the 3D effect on and I turned it off on both DOA and SF pretty quick. I noticed some vertical screen tearing on DOA, which was kind of disappointing, but it seemed to play fine.

Kid Icarus looked and played great. To the person who asked above, Kid Icarus was attached to the podium and you had to sit down to play it. All of the other games allowed you to pick up the 3DS and play with it standing up. Kid Icarus might be a bit difficult to play with 3D on just holding it with one hand.

Ridge Racer looked alright. Not sure if I'd play it with the 3D on or off, though. I was kind of worried about it, as the other two Nintendo Ridge Racer games(64 and DS) have been garbage, but it felt like a proper entry. Not super pleased about the price, though.

I went in pretty hyped about the 3D effect and I left feeling kind of mixed on it. The sweet spot on the 3D is pretty small, I think, and when I left my eyes were feeling pretty tired. I got the feeling it's the sort of thing that would look really amazing in a dimly lit room, but if I were using it outdoors or on a train or something, I'd likely just turn the 3D off completely. In addition to that, it just seems like a handicap in certain games, like fighters.

Also, I wanted to play Pilotwings but I had to leave to catch a train. :[

I will be trying to get my hands on one Day 1, however, so I feel pretty positive about it on the whole.

 

[Mockingbird]

How were the controls for Kid Icarus? Did holding the 3DS with one main support hand effect the angle at which you saw the 3D? Did you have to hold the 3DS at all while playing (or was it all supported by the kiosk/slave girls)?

Controls, from what I used was the analog, L button, and touch screen only. It controlled pretty well from the 8 minutes that I played. I choose the Hard mode and -- it was pretty hard:lol I held the 3DS up while playing, but I think everyone did and it's much better than being slouched over on the chair. as far as I could recall, holding it with one hand did not have any noticeable negative effects on the 3D. I was need to adjust myself to the 3D ever, I don't think. I made it to the boss. The flying level was one of the ones seen in the vids where all these lasers come at you -- lots of baddies and things to dodge in the air. Man, it was awesome. I guess I did have a bit of trouble adjusting the camera on the ground but it's cause I didn't really know how to.

To be honest I thought the game would suck because of the demo I saw on youtube the other day showing some simple and boring level meant for beginners, but damn, the game was pretty intense!

What mode of Steel Diver was playable? The side-scrolling level? How did that play? What is the pacing like? Action heavy? Exploration heavy? Is the challenge in dealing with all the knobs and levers? Or is it a slow, strategic game?

I actually think the Steel Diver game they had was the completed game and not a demo, because compared to the games I played it had all these modes and settings, including some connectivity mode. The first one I played was similar to the Submarine Tech Demo (side-scrolling) from E3 a few years back. It was simple but the 3D was not as noticeable as with other games. There's a time-limit to get to the end of the stage so even though you can take it slow, you'll want to get to the end of the stage in a set-time. The pacing is determined by the player, mostly -- but it's not incredibly fast.

Then after I beat that the demo guy told me to go back to the title screen and try out the periscope mode where you make use of the 3DS' gyro-function to to properly align and aim your periscope reticule and sink enemy ships. To turn you have to basically spin your body while holding the 3DS up. So people at the Steel Diver area were spinning in circles:lol If you get hit water leaks on the bottom screen area and you have to tap at the leaks to plug it up. When there's a leak your entire sub is inactive so you can't do anything till you plug the leak.

Sorry if already asked, but does anyone know what exactly happens when you slide down to 2D?

Only thing I noticed was it was no longer in 3D and I was no longer in the new world. Then I turned it back up to the max.

 

[gofreak]

Sorry if already asked, but does anyone know what exactly happens when you slide down to 2D?

Did anyone notice any noticeable bump in horizontal resolution? i.e. Are games typically rendering at the 800x200 res in 2D, or are they doing 400x200 and scaling to the screen's full res, or just even skipping every other dot?

Perhaps with such a tiny horizontal dot pitch you wouldn't even really notice 800x200 vs 400x200, so they do just skip every second column of dots in 2D mode? Although supposedly we are highly sensitive to horizontal resolution so I dunno.

Anyway, anyone know what actually happens?

 

[Vinterbird]

Sorry if already asked, but does anyone know what exactly happens when you slide down to 2D?

Did anyone notice any noticeable bump in horizontal resolution? i.e. Are games typically rendering at the 800x200 res in 2D, or are they doing 400x200 and scaling to the screen's full res, or just even skipping every other dot?

Perhaps with such a tiny horizontal dot pitch you wouldn't even really notice 800x200 vs 400x200, so they do just skip every second column of dots in 2D mode? Although supposedly we are highly sensitive to horizontal resolution so I dunno.

Anyway, anyone know what actually happens?

Personally: It just went to 2D. If there were any changes in the games I played (Pilotwings, Nintendogs, Hollywood 61, MGS3 and some videos), it was either negligible or not noticeable by me at least. People who are masters at spotting resolution changes or density in pixels might see it better, but I didn't see any changes.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

Sorry if already asked, but does anyone know what exactly happens when you slide down to 2D?

Did anyone notice any noticeable bump in horizontal resolution? i.e. Are games typically rendering at the 800x200 res in 2D, or are they doing 400x200 and scaling to the screen's full res, or just even skipping every other dot?

Perhaps with such a tiny horizontal dot pitch you wouldn't even really notice 800x200 vs 400x200, so they do just skip every second column of dots in 2D mode? Although supposedly we are highly sensitive to horizontal resolution so I dunno.

Anyway, anyone know what actually happens?

They still run at 400 x 240 but they can add extra visual effects like per pixel motion blur and anti aliasing (this is what RE Revelations does)

 

[0405]

I held the 3DS up while playing, but I think everyone did and it's much better than being slouched over on the chair. as far as I could recall, holding it with one hand did not have any noticeable negative effects on the 3D.

I feel like an idiot for not realizing you could apparently pick the 3DS up. D: Ah, well.

Sorry if already asked, but does anyone know what exactly happens when you slide down to 2D?

Whenever I slid down to 2D, the image seemed slightly cleaner and brighter, but(ignoring the obvious lack of a 3D effect) it didn't look all that different to me.

 

[Mockingbird]

I feel like an idiot for not realizing you could apparently pick the 3DS up. D: Ah, well.

Wait, now that you say this, I don't remember if I held it up or not :lol I did for all the other games though.

 

[0405]

Wait, now that you say this, I don't remember if I held it up or not :lol I did for all the other games though.

Oh. I held it up for all the other games, as well. There were attached with magnets, I think? The Kid Icarus one felt pretty solid; it didn't move at all when I was playing it and I didn't see anyone else picking it up, so I just kind of assumed it was mounted on the stand.

 

[gofreak]

Whenever I slid down to 2D, the image seemed slightly cleaner and brighter, but(ignoring the obvious lack of a 3D effect) it didn't look all that different to me.

Thanks. Brighter would certainly make sense wrt the parallax barrier. Cleaner could make sense either due to better horizontal resolution or a super-sampled image at the same res (which I think RE is doing).

And also, thanks Vinter/Nuclear/Mockingbird. I get the impression many games are sticking to 400x240 and doing more or doing it faster, but curious if any are doing 800x240. I had wondered before if that resolution would lead to a distorted image - they tell you to always make sure your viewport and your game camera have the same aspect ratio - but I guess distortion due to those differences get ironed out if the screen 'squeezes' the image back into the same aspect ratio as the game camera.

 

[swerve]

Thanks. Brighter would certainly make sense wrt the parallax barrier. Cleaner could make sense either due to better horizontal resolution or a super-sampled image at the same res (which I think RE is doing).

And also, thanks Vinter/Nuclear/Mockingbird. I get the impression many games are sticking to 400x240 and doing more or doing it faster, but curious if any are doing 800x240. I had wondered before if that resolution would lead to a distorted image - they tell you to always make sure your viewport and your game camera have the same aspect ratio - but I guess distortion due to those differences get ironed out if the screen 'squeezes' the image back into the same aspect ratio as the game camera.

I believe you can't do 800x240 because the barrier is constantly in place. All that changes when you move to 2D is that each column is doubled in width so both eyes see the same image.

 

[gofreak]

I believe you can't do 800x240 because the barrier is constantly in place. All that changes when you move to 2D is that each column is doubled in width so both eyes see the same image.

I thought the barrier basically goes transparent in 2D mode though?

If what you say were true then I think you'd have cross-talk and other sweet spot issues even in 2D mode, which I believe is not the case. The fact the screen gets a little brighter in 2D also suggests the barrier basically is disabled in 2D mode. It's a switching barrier, they can I think switch it on and off, it's not 'fixed'. AFAIK both eyes can see all the dots/pixels in 2D mode.

 

[swerve]

AFAIK both eyes can see all the dots/pixels in 2D mode.

How does that work, if the game is rendering at 400?

 

[EatChildren]

How can the barrier go transparent when its a physical thing?

As far as I'm aware lowering the slider to 2D brings each of the two images closer together, eventually matching up when you hit 2D mode. The system is still send a unique image to each eye due to the parallax barrier, but both images are absolutely the same so the image appears 2D.

Resolution isn't increased as both images are still rendered at 400x240. The image doesnt appear stretched or in higher resolution because each image is still only being recieved by one eye.

Effectively, you're still still seeing two seperate 400x240 images, they just happen to be the same.

 

[beje]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the spanish site vandal.net has reported that Walking unlocks new content on Nintendo 3DS games

Free and quick translation

The internal podometer of the console gets how many steps you've walked and will reward you with Game Coins that can be used to unlock extra content.

This content will be unlocked in the different retail games, and coins are not tied to an specific game, nor the AR games or the embedded software. All games can use this feature.

It's expected the Street Pass feature will be emphasized through this

 

[thegodsend]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the spanish site vandal.net has reported that Walking unlocks new content on Nintendo 3DS games

Free and quick translation

if true, very clever way to force people to carry their 3DS with them all the time.

 

[gofreak]

How does that work, if the game is rendering at 400?

In 2D mode?

They might scale the image to 800 horizontal (and the narrower horizontal dot pitch squeezes the image back horizontally so it doesn't look distorted), or they spread the frame across every other column of pixels (every second column shows nothing). The image integrity in the latter case would be OK, since the pitch between each pixel that is showing something would still be very small (and, in fact, about the same as what the vertical dot pitch always is in 2D or 3D).

How can the barrier go transparent when its a physical thing?

It's a liquid crystal 'thing', and they can apparently manipulate it with electric charge to poralise the light in different directions. Or to turn it off and not poralise the light at all and let it all through.

That's how sharp describes it anyway.

(This being the case, btw, I expect there would be some saving on power consumption in 2D mode - the power needed for the parallax barrier would no longer be needed. They could perhaps also knock the backlight down a notch to save more power still, although going by reports that doesn't seem to be the case.)

 

[swerve]

How can the barrier go transparent when its a physical thing?

As far as I'm aware lowering the slider to 2D brings each of the two images closer together, eventually matching up when you hit 2D mode. The system is still send a unique image to each eye due to the parallax barrier, but both images are absolutely the same so the image appears 2D.

Yes, that's my understanding. I think Nintendo have gone with a fixed barrier (hence why it doesn't work in book mode), which is both better for battery, and cheaper.

Developers must provide three cameras, one standard, and two offsets. Switching from 2D to 3D switches from using the single central camera for each eye, to using the two offset cameras, which move apart depending on the slider value.

 

[FINALFANTASYDOG]

Okay went today and 2 incredibly uniformed questions here:

1. In many of the games, It seemed incredibly aliased when in 3d mode, switching to 2d mode made this go away(As no one else has mentioned this think my eyes are the cause?).

2. First time experiencing the new 3d: I remember I went to EVO at Disney world and remember things really popping out at me, this 3d technology certainly doesn't do this(as they say looking into a little world rather then popping out) Is the reason EVO worked because of the size of the screen or something else?


I wear contacts and have a feeling perhapses I'm unable to see 3d correctly now?

 

[gofreak]

I'm assuming that they're using the same screen's Sharp describes and the same tech used in Sharp's own mobile phone. Which, btw, apparently also produces a 3D effect in vertical or horiztonal configuration, presumably because the parallax barrier can be switched to a vertical stripe pattern also with a different kind of current or whatever. (However on 3DS, the per-frame horizontal resolution here would be quite rubbish when used vertically so I dunno if they would use this.)

If the parallax barrier was fixed it would be difficult to provide 2D that is the same as a 2D screen. You would not have full resolution 2D mode, and you would have sweet spot issues in 2D even (since the poralisation can direct light in a undistorted way in only a small window). You wouldn't actually be able to turn it into a screen that's the same as a 2D one, but from all reports it does behave exactly as a normal screen in 2D.

If Nintendo was using a fixed physical parallax barrier they'd basically be using Sharp's 1994 3d display tech I don't think that can be right.

Okay went today and 2 incredibly uniformed questions here:

1. In many of the games, It seemed incredibly aliased when in 3d mode, switching to 2d mode made this go away(As no one else has mentioned this think my eyes are the cause?).

2. First time experiencing the new 3d: I remember I went to EVO at Disney world and remember things really popping out at me, this 3d technology certainly doesn't do this(as they say looking into a little world rather then popping out) Is the reason EVO worked because of the size of the screen or something else?


I wear contacts and have a feeling perhapses I'm unable to see 3d correctly now?

I think you're seeing it just fine - most have described it as you have, providing depth into the screen more than highly conspicuous 'popping out' effects. That may be the tech or it may just be the choice of the software - you probably don't want to have stuff popping out of the screen too much anyway, from a comfort POV (or so I've read). Re. aliasing in 3D vs 2D, others have said the same. And we know one game at least is using 2xSSAA in 2D mode. Others may just be using full-res frames which will look less aliased anyway too.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

its interesting that you guys are talking about the screen's tech
for the #DS ask Iwata it seems that the 3D volume slider is Nintendo's idea and it may not be found on any of Sharp's other uses for its tech and it only works on game software designed to use it not on fixed 3D video or movies

so it makes me wonder if that slider will stay 3DS exclusive or can someone else copy it?

 

[cw_sasuke]

Level 5 Presentation Recap

http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/01/10/level_5_3ds_lineup/

About Fantasy Life

Hino described this as a new type of game that uses ad-hoc and Street Pass to make you feel like you're playing in the same world as multiple other players, similar to an online game. It's a game that's played as you communicate with others, explained Hino. Your personal avatar character will meet a large number of other players in a virtual fantasy world.

Do Want.....

 

[gofreak]

its interesting that you guys are talking about the screen's tech
for the #DS ask Iwata it seems that the 3D volume slider is Nintendo's idea and it may not be found on any of Sharp's other uses for its tech and it only works on game software designed to use it not on fixed 3D video or movies

so it makes me wonder if that slider will stay 3DS exclusive or can someone else copy it?

Yeah, I think the slider is only linked to the parallax barrier in terms of turning it on or off. Beyond turning it on, pushing it up feeds parameters to software re. the cameras in the game.

I'm sure others could do the same, but the problem in a case like Sharp's is - how do you get software to take commands from your slider or whatever? It's easy in a fixed platform to mandate that support and force devs to support it. For phones and things it's not so easy. But it's not a huge deal since I imagine any 3D games content on devices like that would just put 3D strength options in their own settings menu. That's what PS3 3D games do.

 

[EatChildren]

So, I wonder how long it will take before we get our first Call of Duty 3DS.

 

[Spiegel]

So, I wonder how long it will take before we get our first Call of Duty 3DS.

8 months

 

[Xater]

8 months

Could be up to 10 depending on the month they want to release in.

 

[Datschge]

1. In many of the games, It seemed incredibly aliased when in 3d mode, switching to 2d mode made this go away(As no one else has mentioned this think my eyes are the cause?).

It was reported before (by Capcom I think) that AA is only enabled in 2D while in 3D the eyes should make up for the lack of it.

2. First time experiencing the new 3d: I remember I went to EVO at Disney world and remember things really popping out at me, this 3d technology certainly doesn't do this(as they say looking into a little world rather then popping out) Is the reason EVO worked because of the size of the screen or something else?

Pop out effects are still restricted to the screen size, after all you are looking at the screen still and nothing is actually popping out. So the smaller a screen is the less an object can pop out without clipping (which is the worst effect that can happen in 3D, an object being fully visible only to one eye while it lies partly off screen for the other eye). Since in games the 3D areas usually can be freely moved and thus the danger of clipping is too high use of pop outs is being avoided.

 

[Vinterbird]

So, I wonder how long it will take before we get our first Call of Duty 3DS.

November 18th 2011.

 

[Spiegel]

Could be up to 10 depending on the month they want to release in.

I mean 8 months after launch. Late March - Early November

 

[Boney]

Now we play the waiting game yet again.

 

[EatChildren]

n-Space did a pretty good job with the DS versions. Even though I'm not a COD fan, I hope they get the chance to do the 3DS release, even with their recent layoffs.

On the subject of shooters, I hope something halfway decent is announced. A spy thriller in the realm of NOLF would be great, or something arcadey and action packed like Serious Sam. But now I'm getting into "STUFF I REALLY WONT BUT WONT EVER HAPPEN" territory.

 

[swerve]

1. In many of the games, It seemed incredibly aliased when in 3d mode, switching to 2d mode made this go away(As no one else has mentioned this think my eyes are the cause?).

Yes, this is because in 3D mode, with two cameras, the scene must be rendered twice. Conversely, in 2D mode, one camera, render scene once, allows time for full screen AA and the like.

If Nintendo was using a fixed physical parallax barrier they'd basically be using Sharp's 1994 3d display tech I don't think that can be right.

I hope you're right, but... thisisnintendo.gif

 

[Zerokku]

So I'm watching last nights jazz performance. God damn this is the best one they did, not to mention Koji's solo at the end. So sad I missed watching this live and geeking out with everyone last night. So good.

 

[Hamblasto]

So I'm watching last nights jazz performance. God damn this is the best one they did, not to mention Koji's solo at the end. So sad I missed watching this live and geeking out with everyone last night. So good.

Speaking of, did anyone manage to put together some mp3s of yesterday's performance including Kondo's solo?

 

[perfectchaos007]

It was reported before (by Capcom I think) that AA is only enabled in 2D while in 3D the eyes should make up for the lack of it.


Pop out effects are still restricted to the screen size, after all you are looking at the screen still and nothing is actually popping out. So the smaller a screen is the less an object can pop out without clipping (which is the worst effect that can happen in 3D, an object being fully visible only to one eye while it lies partly off screen for the other eye). Since in games the 3D areas usually can be freely moved and thus the danger of clipping is too high use of pop outs is being avoided.

So Lookslys Lineup on DSi pretty much has the same effect as 3DS? I'm okay with that

 

[Dante23]

So I'm watching last nights jazz performance. God damn this is the best one they did, not to mention Koji's solo at the end. So sad I missed watching this live and geeking out with everyone last night. So good.

I liked the first one the most, as Mahito Yokota's performance apart from flawless, was the only one that used piano voicing in his keyboard for Zelda's Lullaby.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

So I'm watching last nights jazz performance. God damn this is the best one they did, not to mention Koji's solo at the end. So sad I missed watching this live and geeking out with everyone last night. So good.

Link to video please!

 

[Hamblasto]

Link to video please!

Here ya go!

 

[Skiesofwonder]

Thank you kind sir!

Amazing. I really really wish they would do that for E3, so good!

 

[antonz]

Thank you kind sir!

Amazing. I really really wish they would do that for E3, so good!

Would actually be cool have set times throughout the day that the band will play at their space on the floor

 

[Dreamwriter]

It was reported before (by Capcom I think) that AA is only enabled in 2D while in 3D the eyes should make up for the lack of it.

That's only how they programmed Resident Evil, not the way the hardware works.

 

[Dreamwriter]

2. First time experiencing the new 3d: I remember I went to EVO at Disney world and remember things really popping out at me, this 3d technology certainly doesn't do this(as they say looking into a little world rather then popping out) Is the reason EVO worked because of the size of the screen or something else?

Actually, the 3DS can pop things out of the screen if the developer wishes - the Metal Gear demo does so, as long as you don't set the 3D volume down too far. But popping things out of the screen is just plain gimmicky and annoying, so smart developers will rarely do so.