Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I wonder how many people really think like this when thats not the intention, never.Nintendo is better than all of us again. Nothing to see here.
I wonder how many people really think like this when thats not the intention, never.Nintendo is better than all of us again. Nothing to see here.
That claim is also valid for the "1080p or die" crowd. Since now what's cool is "resolution" it's (at least) sad to see how in the vast majority of graphical comparisons the resolution seems to be the first and last thing that matters.
Not the amount of light sources, nor the framerate, nor the shader quality, nor anything besides resolution. One game is 1080p and the other one is only 900p? The rest doesn't matters, the winner is the one with higher resolution, period.
OP its straight up calling out all the posers basically. It may hurt feelings but if all you know about is 1080p/60fps and cant point out any other techniques you're faking it. What are you discussing if thats your only point? It reminds me of the meme about the girl when asked something geeky replies with a completely wrong answer cause she doesnt know what shes talking about but whats trendy trying to fit in.
I don't need to be a tech enthisiast to say that the CG of Terminator 2 looks "worse" than modern CG movies. I don't need to be an expert on CG techniques to say so. There are some things that are obvious to the naked eye, even if my reasonings are wrong, or ppl are using incorrect words to describe it, dosn't make it less right.
When ppl call Mario Kart 8 unimpressive, they might not know why is like that and they might use incorrect words. The game still is, more or less, a last gen game from a technical standpoint. Which sure looks nice, artistically, but dosn't change that fact.
Give me more gameplay mechanics and systems or refine them, or actually develop something fun. Give me a rewarding gameplay experience without just holding forward and press A/X at random moments. I don't care if its 720p and 30FPS, I really don't care.
What do these phantom people need to know?
"This 1080p60 game looks great". Job done. No protracted essay on the difference between FSAA & MSAA is needed. Just a simple 'this looks great - that doesn't look great'.
It would be really useful if someone could provide an actual example of 'the issue' here. So far, the only person caught using terms they don't understand has been the OP.
Nintendo is better than all of us again. Nothing to see here.
Metfanant
come on bro...
youre literally making that shit up with nothing to base it on
freezamite Do you know how a deferred engine works, don't you?
Chobel
At 720p? hahaha! No.
If you're sure show me an example.
freezamite At 720p of course, because lighting in a deferred engine has a much different cost attached to it. You trade bandwidth in order to gain processing power, so each light is calculated in a deferred engine after the rasterization has been made through the G-buffers.
If all those g-buffers can be stored in the 32MB of eSram it's obvious that there's a big advantage here.
TrevHead
? OFC not, the differences you state are plain for all to see, I'm just talking about colour that's all.
freezamite
Not so plain to see when you quoted my response to that claim:
There's nothing in the gameplay video that looks particularly different or superior to the original Bayonetta
made by someone who works for Digital Foundry, what means that he's someone specialized (in theory) on graphical comparisons.
The differences as you say are obvious, and that claim about Bayo 2 looking identical to Bayo 1 was of course part of the DF agenda of shitting over Nintendo at the least opportunity they have, to the point where even false information is spread in order to do so.
Without being able to name names you're just setting up a strawman to take down.
A lot of people underestimate the strength of a well-crafted lighting engine. Wind Waker looks like a completely different game for it. Another good example of it is Dark Souls, which has an absurdly good one. Those things can make games look exponentially better, without increasing resolution or texture size at all.
that doesn't negate the fact that "those colours" are there thanks to a deferred engine and not only because "nintendo like colours".
Killzone 2 on the PS3 used differed rendering, and had scenes with up to 350 individual light sources...
what framerate did Killzone 2 run at again?
the whole point with deffered rendering is that the number of lighting sources isn't really an issue.
Reggie: "A resounding YES"I love NintendoLand graphics. Is that in line with the OP? :
my issue with the OP was not that he thinks people who talk about graphics should be more knowledgeable...that is perfectly acceptable, and i agree with him 100%.....my issues arise because he then continues to pretend he knows more about the situation then he really does...and begins to make silly comments like "Mario has bright colors because of differed rendering"
absolutely, however youre missing the point...OP is off on this differed rendering tangent in multiple threads (here, and the MGSV thread) and he is making completely nonsensical claims with zero evidence to back any of it up, but wants everyone to swallow every bit of his rants as gospel...
my issue with the OP was not that he thinks people who talk about graphics should be more knowledgeable...that is perfectly acceptable, and i agree with him 100%.....my issues arise because he then continues to pretend he knows more about the situation then he really does...and begins to make silly comments like "Mario has bright colors because of differed rendering"
absolutely, however youre missing the point...OP is off on this differed rendering tangent in multiple threads (here, and the MGSV thread) and he is making completely nonsensical claims with zero evidence to back any of it up, but wants everyone to swallow every bit of his rants as gospel...
Does it matter? Unless you're a computer scientist you're only going to have a tenuous abstraction ridden understanding anyhow.But do you know what you are talking about since you are one of the people the OP got into an argument with in the MGS thread?
Nintendo is better than all of us again. Nothing to see here.
Nintendo is better than all of us again. Nothing to see here.
It was a placeholder.
You better be able to play one on screen and one on Wii U Pad 2 player in Mario Kart, otherwise that's fucking ridiculous.
There is nothing confirmed outside of Off-TV play.
Mr. Yabuki: We always have lots of ideas, and that was actually one that we considered. What we finally figured out was that it was more fun to have everyone on the big screen, playing against each other that way.
Does it matter? Unless you're a computer scientist you're only going to have a tenuous abstraction ridden understanding anyhow.
I think it's good fun discussing esoteric tech stuff on the internet, but people take it too seriously and spoil all the fun.Exactly which is why all this talk is absolutely stupid to begin with, it's like in 2007 when people were talking about Blue Ocean strategy with less knowledge than a republican congressman have of the female body.
Seriously if you don't know about it stop talking about it.
I think it's good fun discussing esoteric tech stuff on the internet, but people take it too seriously and spoil all the fun.
I mean, colors is in quotes in the title of this thread.
"colors"
One thing we can say for the Wii U, is that it's capable of deferred lighting at 60 fps and 720p, something I don't think we saw on the 360 or PS3. At least in the OPs first picture the lighting is responsible for a good chunk of all that colour. In the gif, not so much, but I am absolutely a fan of the Nintendoland lighting look that Nintendo seem to be favouring these days.
Interestingly, the Xbox One seems to struggle with deferred lighting at anything above 60 fps and 720p, although naturally the Xbox One has a lot more power it can leverage elsewhere in making it's games look substantially better... but it is interesting (to me) to not that the One's Achilles heel, is actually one of the few areas where we can point to the Wii U and say that it's absolutely more capable than the last gen power houses.
i dont claim to be any form of expert...but i know enough to not allow myself to be completely BS'dBut do you know what you are talking about since you are one of the people the OP got into an argument with in the MGS thread?
was not intended to be snide...simply asking if Mario64's bright colors are the result of a deferred rendering engine...I'm not digging the way you made that snide Mario64 remark.
The problem is that many people have no idea what they like until Digital Foundry tells them what to like.
He was banned before. Just leave him alone on that front and do the leg work by remembering what people actually say in this forum.
You can find many examples without even looking through his posting history.
Not if it's using deferred lighting. I'm not. Again, name a cross gen game that the Xbone is running at 1080p with 60fps that uses deferred lighting. Again, name a 360/PS3 game that runs at 60 fps that uses deferred lighting.i dont think any of those comments are fair to make about the PS360 or the Xbone...because you cant simply isolate lighting without talking about the rest of the games assets...
what else is the GPU responsible for in the games? that is the question that needs to be asked...im not downplaying what is achieved in Mario Kart, or any of the newer Mario games...they are absolutely beautiful and stunning to look at...
but are the textures as detailed? are the character models as detailed? are the environments as big? what kind of AI are we dealing with? particle effects? shaders?...i would wager ALL of these categories favor the average Xbone game...
im supremely confident that the Xbone could run Mario Kart 8 in 1080p @60fps in all its deferred glory
When you see the same "media" or posters then go on about how 720p is really the same as 1080p or near enough that it doesn't matter it kinda raises eyebrows.
And there's actually modern CG that look worse than Terminator 2.
Heck look at how fake Star Wars look in comparison now but that's probably because Lucas is a hack...
You can find MK8 unimpressive but then you better not consider the latest shitfest with framedrops up the wazoo to be OMG SO PRETTY either.
From what I've seen MK8 certainly looks better than CoD Ghost even on pc.
We can discuss tech specs all day but if you don't have the knowledge to back it up you look like a moron (like the op in that weird OP).
If you want to say that Frozen looks better than Wrecking Ralf you better not come up with BS reasons, which is really what is happening with just saying it's unimpressive because it doesn't have tessellation or some other BS marketing speak they learned this week.
Not if it's using deferred lighting. I'm not. Again, name a cross gen game that the Xbone is running at 1080p with 60fps that uses deferred lighting. Again, name a 360/PS3 game that runs at 60 fps that uses deferred lighting.
There could be ones I'm unaware of. I'd love to know if there are any exceptions. And I'm not suggesting that 360/PS3 games look bad, or anything silly like that. Nor am I suggesting the Wii U is even close in power to the Xbox One... because it isn't. I'm just saying that the Wii U is better at deferred lighting specifically than the 360 and PS3, and that overall it's a more powerful system.
There are certainly areas that it gets beaten by the other consoles, and porting to it properly requires more effort than anyone is going to bother using when a small amount of effort gets you something that runs okay (albeit worse than 360 and PS3).
But if I was going to highlight one thing that sets the Wii U apart from the 360/PS3, I think the OP picked the right thing to highlight. Pretty deferred shading at 60 fps and 720p, or 30 fps and 1080p. Which in that one thing and that one thing alone seems to put it at the same kind of level as Xbox One.
All the other generational leaps the Xbox One offers over the 360 and PS3 the Wii U falls very short of, landing much closer to last gen than this gen.
Facts aren't fair, and to my knowledge (again, which might not be complete) deferred lighting kept last gen games at 30 fps, and deferred lighting keeps the Xbox One at 720p, at least if we're talking about games running at 60 fps.
I'm not really sure what your problem is (other than your relentless need to generalize other gamers). Are you annoyed because people don't possess an adequate vocabulary to explain why they like what they like? Or are you annoyed because they don't value the same things you do?
This is like a spinoff thread from the WUST threads. These never go well. Might have as well bumped the "Wii U GPU Speculation" thread (That is, if you haven't already made a post or several posts about the same thing in it, and decided to make it its own thread)
You seem really angry and aggressive about this. Have you tried taking a walk? I find that helps.
In any case, I don't understand the point of this topic. People who don't find Mario 3D World impressive should know that it's colorful because of a deferred lighting engine and not because of palette choices. Okay? That was fairly common knowledge to begin with, and even then you can't fault people for not finding the game technically impressive. It isn't.
Not if it's using deferred lighting. I'm not. Again, name a cross gen game that the Xbone is running at 1080p with 60fps that uses deferred lighting. Again, name a 360/PS3 game that runs at 60 fps that uses deferred lighting.
COD Ghosts, BF4 and MGS: Ground Zeroes already run at 60 fps on Xbox 360 and PS3. Guess what resolution the Xbox One runs them at.Mario Kart 8 already runs at 60fps on Wii U, so theoretically yes the Xbox should be able to handle a simple res bump from there. This isn't the same as Tomb Raider where they have to double the resolution and the frame rate.
Do you have a source for that using deferred lighting? A cursory search on the internet didn't bring anything up. A lot of games use deferred techniques, that don't use deferred lighting, like most Unreal Engine games, for example.Bionic Commando Rearmed ran at 60 for the most part. The technique itself isn't necessarily more demanding than forward rendering; that's pretty much the point. But yes, 1080p and deferred rendering is where the 32 MB ESRAM really becomes a bottleneck on XB1 as I understand it, as you can't fit all your render buffers. It would be the same same for WiiU but it's better in that regard than the 10 MB eDRAM on the 360
COD Ghosts, BF4 and MGS: Ground Zeroes already run at 60 fps on Xbox 360 and PS3. Guess what resolution the Xbox One runs them at.
As far as I'm aware, every Xbox One game with deferred lighting that runs at 60 fps runs at 720p on the One. I have heard speculation that this is entirely to do with the amount of ESRAM on the system not having the bandwidth to handle that specific technique at higher resolutions (if you're doing 60 fps).
If people have examples that prove otherwise, I would genuinely like to be corrected, as I don't like believing something to be true that isn't.
Do you have a source for that using deferred lighting? I cursory search on the internet didn't bring anything up.
Not if it's using deferred lighting. I'm not. Again, name a cross gen game that the Xbone is running at 1080p with 60fps that uses deferred lighting. Again, name a 360/PS3 game that runs at 60 fps that uses deferred lighting.
There could be ones I'm unaware of. I'd love to know if there are any exceptions. And I'm not suggesting that 360/PS3 games look bad, or anything silly like that. Nor am I suggesting the Wii U is even close in power to the Xbox One... because it isn't. I'm just saying that the Wii U is better at deferred lighting specifically than the 360 and PS3, and that overall it's a more powerful system.
There are certainly areas that it gets beaten by the other consoles, and porting to it properly requires more effort than anyone is going to bother using when a small amount of effort gets you something that runs okay (albeit worse than 360 and PS3).
But if I was going to highlight one thing that sets the Wii U apart from the 360/PS3, I think the OP picked the right thing to highlight. Pretty deferred shading at 60 fps and 720p, or 30 fps and 1080p. Which in that one thing and that one thing alone seems to put it at the same kind of level as Xbox One.
All the other generational leaps the Xbox One offers over the 360 and PS3 the Wii U falls very short of, landing much closer to last gen than this gen.
Facts aren't fair, and to my knowledge (again, which might not be complete) deferred lighting kept last gen games at 30 fps, and deferred lighting keeps the Xbox One at 720p, at least if we're talking about games running at 60 fps.
I'm certainly not a techie and I prefer 1080p to anything less than 1080p. I do think there is something up with the lighting in Wii U first party games that look better than PS360 games though, but I don't know if that's due to deferred rendering or not. Or maybe Nintendo is just good at lighting and art style and the games look good despite the Wii U, not because of it. I dunno. I'd be interested to hear the explanation from more knowledgable people.
but youre taking lighting and isolating it like its the only technical aspect of a games visuals...it just doesnt work that way...you have to factor everything else into the equation...
Mario Kart does certain things really well...but the fact remains the majority of its appeal is its beautiful and colorful art style...
for example...in Ryse, the main character model is made up of 85,000 polygons how many polygons do you think Mario is made up of in Mario Kart 8? its no where near 85k!...
you cant simply ignore all of the additional processing being done in a game like Ryse and then say "SEE! it cant do deferred lighting in at 720/60!" because there might be as many polygons in one character of Ryse as a whole frame of Mario Kart...
Does coding on it count?
It uses the same engine as all the Grin games, which was using deferred rendering since GRAW1 PC in 2006
Mario Kart does certain things really well...but the fact remains the majority of its appeal is its beautiful and colorful art style...