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[GHG]

The last trial beta was a few weeks old at best, They have randoms be summoned in but not friends, People like my friend bought it on the assumption that it will be like that in the full game release.

I'll play it regardless, But it wasn't clear enough between the last trial demo and full game release that this change was made. Considering it had gone gold by the time the last chance trial was available.

They have reacted to fan feedback well before, So we'll see how it pans out.

I doubt they will change much to be honest.

The whole point of "co-op" in these games is to allow other players to help you if you are struggling with a particular area. It defeats the purpose of summoning if the person you summon us also a noob and has no idea how to get through that area in one piece. Overall, the feature exists to prevent players from hitting a wall and then giving up on the game, it's a way of making things easier for them so that they can still progress.

The other co-op mode that exists increases the difficulty and it only makes sense to have this mode opened up to experienced players who have completed the level previously (even if it was with the help of a summoned player). At least you'll know what to expect that way. If not it would be a baptism of fire of sorts and you'd then have people complaining that the co-op mode that you can play with friends is too hard.

So in summary, the game is primarily a single player game with co-op elements, not the other way round.

 

[myco666]

Yes there is, it's how the game was designed to be played - that's the devs prerogative.

Randoms who have already completed the level and are offering to help others through it. Just like your friends can.

But why not allow people to be summoned before they finish the level themselves?

 

[DrDamn]

The game went gold, Then the last chance trial comes out and that was some peoples first impression came about, And it's different too that said version, Of which nothing was said about the change until people found out themselves.

So the argument about it being intended as a SP experience is pointless, When an OP random can just blitz it for you. So why not let you and a friend blind play it together.

I made a previous post about this. I suspect the idea that the beta allowed it was for the convenience of the beta - it was only available for a limited time and was presumably helping test some of their systems. So easier if it assumed you had completed it and could co-op with a friend.

I don't quite get your point about OP randoms - there is a mechanism for community help, What has this got to do with two people wanting to play through the whole game together? One mechanic (regardless of OPness) fits the design philosophy and the other doesn't.

 

[GHG]

But why not allow people to be summoned before they finish the level themselves?

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

 

[Nose Master]

The Twilight mission structure being relegated to two random ass missions a day is also extremely lame. First two days were four level 75+ missions. Thanks.

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

For randos? Sure. For friend-matching, you should be able to do new stuff. Both having to have beaten the thing is boring. We beat the first sub mission last night in under 2 minutes just trying to squeeze some entertainment out of it.

There were amazing (co-op only?) Twilight versions of stages in the betas that you could enter blind with a friend. I want those back.

They could also do with some level scaling or something, even with friend matching. If you're a higher level, you just steamroll shit.

 

[DrDamn]

But why not allow people to be summoned before they finish the level themselves?

The design is around community knowledge sharing - so someone who has completed the level is sharing their knowledge by helping someone who hasn't.

It's a philosophy which is inherent to the games and at times quite strictly applied - like in this case. I get that people would like to play it in a particular way - but the design is specifically not to allow it and I admire the strength of that conviction. It might not be for everybody, but I think the games as a whole, and in the grander scheme of plenty of other games which take a more traditional approach, are better and more unique experiences for it.

 

[atr0cious]

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

Please name other games that worry about this as overcoming a challenge is the whole point. I don't even play these types of games, but folks using the worst analogies to discount the OP are kind of ridiculous. It's destiny's matchmaking all over again.

 

[GHG]

The design is around community knowledge sharing - so someone who has completed the level is sharing their knowledge by helping someone who hasn't.

It's a philosophy which is inherent to the games and at times quite strictly applied - like in this case. I get that people would like to play it in a particular way - but the design is specifically not to allow it and I admire the strength of that conviction. It might not be for everybody, but I think the games as a whole, and in the grander scheme of plenty of other games which take a more traditional approach, are better and more unique experiences for it.

Whenever I've summoned other players in souls games to help me I also treat it as a bit of an "education" of sorts. The ability to observe what weapons/build that person is using and how they go about dealing with a particular enemy or boss. It's also supposed to be a learning experience so that you can take away something that you didn't know about or think of before and utilise it for the rest of your playthrough after the summoned player is gone.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

The design is around community knowledge sharing - so someone who has completed the level is sharing their knowledge by helping someone who hasn't.

It's a philosophy which is inherent to the games and at times quite strictly applied - like in this case. I get that people would like to play it in a particular way - but the design is specifically not to allow it and I admire the strength of that conviction. It might not be for everybody, but I think the games as a whole, and in the grander scheme of plenty of other games which take a more traditional approach, are better and more unique experiences for it.

That's fine, They have every right to want their game to be played that way, Problem we have is, They made the last chance trial available after the game went gold, That's the important part, Nothing was said in the last few weeks since the trial about the change to Co-op.

It's not even about challenge, Because someone struggling can just summon a random OP who has already done it, Rather than like in the last chance trial, 2 friends start the same mission at the same level.

I guess it's within their right, But it's a shoddy decision that has soured me on the game.

It's the fact this change wasn't mentioned before release, Because i know for a fact me and many others wouldn't have bought the game on release had we known about the change.

 

[myco666]

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

All of these things can happen in Souls games and it isn't a problem. Even if a person has beaten the level they could have just summoned a random person who steam rolls it for them and now this person can help others via summoning and all the same problems are still there.

The design is around community knowledge sharing - so someone who has completed the level is sharing their knowledge by helping someone who hasn't.

It's a philosophy which is inherent to the games and at times quite strictly applied - like in this case. I get that people would like to play it in a particular way - but the design is specifically not to allow it and I admire the strength of that conviction. It might not be for everybody, but I think the games as a whole, and in the grander scheme of plenty of other games which take a more traditional approach, are better and more unique experiences for it.

But being able to summon a friend who hasn't beaten the level yet doesn't really negate having this knowledge sharing.

 

[nynt9]

That's fine, They have every right to want their game to be played that way, Problem we have is, They made the last chance trial available after the game went gold, That's the important part, Nothing was said in the last few weeks since the trial about the change to Co-op.

It's not even about challenge, Because someone struggling can just summon a random OP who has already done it, Rather than like in the last chance trial, 2 friends start the same mission at the same level.

I guess it's within their right, But it's a shoddy decision that has soured me on the game.

It's the fact this change wasn't mentioned before release, Because i know for a fact me and many others wouldn't have bought the game on release had we known about the change.

This problem can be very easily solved by not preordering games.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

I made a previous post about this. I suspect the idea that the beta allowed it was for the convenience of the beta - it was only available for a limited time and was presumably helping test some of their systems. So easier if it assumed you had completed it and could co-op with a friend.

I don't quite get your point about OP randoms - there is a mechanism for community help, What has this got to do with two people wanting to play through the whole game together? One mechanic (regardless of OPness) fits the design philosophy and the other doesn't.

Yeah sorry, About this, Basically i started the game and what not, Went to summon my friend as we tried it out, We forgot to put the password on etc. So i summoned a random guy in, He basically went all through the mission wiping everyone out with ease, Didn't see his level etc. It's fine having that mechanic, But to restrict a friend with the password feature seems backwards, And one that was backwards from the trial etc.

 

[Dusktildawn48]

This problem can be very easily solved by not preordering games.

And look how many people who didn't preorder are having trouble finding the game.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

This problem can be very easily solved by not preordering games.

Well there wasn't much news about this feature being removed until people got access too the game last night, So by then it's clearly too late, Otherwise i defo wouldnt have got it at release.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

so one has to clear the area first? big deal

 

[GHG]

Please name other games that worry about this as overcoming a challenge is the whole point. I don't even play these types of games, but folks using the worst analogies to discount the OP are kind of ridiculous. It's destiny's matchmaking all over again.

Soulsborne games.

All of these things can happen in Souls games and it isn't a problem. Even if a person has beaten the level they could have just summoned a random person who steam rolls it for them and now this person can help others via summoning and all the same problems are still there.

The souls games have a matchmaking system whereby you are matched up with others who are a similar soul level to you. It's highly unlikely that you will witness another player come in and steamroll a level/boss for you, you would also have to have a high degree of participation in order to get through the area.

I know it does happen where you can summon someone useless but those instances are rare and in most cases if someone is struggling with the game themselves they are unlikely to use a soapstone in order to be summoned.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

so one has to clear the area first? big deal

If only it was that simple, Unfortunately that's not the case. You cannot blind playthrough any mission in co-op like you could a few weeks ago in the trial. 1 person HAS to have cleared the mission first, Thus removing the fun aspect to do it in co-op with a friend.

Not about SP experience as that's there for those that want it.

Not about Git gud

It's about something that wasn't mentioned in the last few weeks between the trial and release.

 

[DrDamn]

Problem we have is, They made the last chance trial available after the game went gold, That's the important part, Nothing was said in the last few weeks since the trial about the change to Co-op.

I think the Gold position is irrelevant. Different builds are used for different purposes. Did they ever mention at any time that the design for summoning was changing (to be like it was in the Last Chance Trial) in the final game? Because they have been pretty clear about other changes they made during development based on beta feedback. It could even have been a bug based on how the beta was built. Hey they've fixed it for you #probablynothelping

 

[DrDamn]

But being able to summon a friend who hasn't beaten the level yet doesn't really negate having this knowledge sharing.

Well technically in terms of the level you are both learning together rather than sharing the knowledge. I take your point though.

 

[myco666]

The souls games have a matchmaking system whereby you are matched up with others who are a similar soul level to you. It's highly unlikely that you will witness another player come in and steamroll a level/boss for you, you would also have to have a high degree of participation in order to get through the area.

This happens all the time though. I have played a ton of coop in Souls games and even I have steamrolled a ton of stuff for random people who just basically sit back and watch. Soul level doesn't really have that much meaning when the equipment is far more important for damage output.

I know it does happen where you can summon someone useless but those instances are rare and in most cases if someone is struggling with the game themselves they are unlikely to use a soapstone in order to be summoned.

Exactly which is why there is no reason to not give players ability to be summoned before beating a level. Players who do struggle and are not confident enough will most likely not make themselves helpers so people you would be getting are people who either are good at the game or your friends.

 

[klabautermann]

I'm honestly kinda relieved to here this. My friend was really badgering me to co-op the whole game with him and I HATE playing Souls games in Co-op in anyway my first run. I always have to do everything 100% solo the first time around or my experience to take everything in is really ruined. I have an excuse not to play with him now.

 

[Thorrgal]

Someone (probably an Iranian Yihadist Hacker payed by Clinton) changed the name of the post.SAD!!

 

[zewone]

The problem is if you want to play with friends.

If you don't then you likely won't get why this is a problem.

 

[Truant]

The problem is if you have friends.

If you don't then you likely won't get why this is a problem.

Fixed.

 

[Luminaire]

I didn't even know this had co-op, nor was I expecting it to. I never play Souls games for the co-op aspect. When I do partner up with someone it's to help them and get me some extra souls/humanity.

 

[Fisty]

I'm honestly kinda relieved to here this. My friend was really badgering me to co-op the whole game with him and I HATE playing Souls games in Co-op in anyway my first run. I always have to do everything 100% solo the first time around or my experience to take everything in is really ruined. I have an excuse not to play with him now.

Heh yeah agreed, in some cases playing a game co-op has ruined the experience for me. Souls games are usually pretty fun, but having a less-skilled friend pester you to steamroll bosses for him gets pretty annoying pretty quick. And especially games like this, I have zero patience for other people's mistakes, which would make a first playthrough in co-op a rather frustrating one.

 

[vg260]

It's about something that wasn't mentioned in the last few weeks between the trial and release.

Wasn't there an opening message in the trial stating that it is in development and some features may differ from the final retail version?

 

[zewone]

Wasn't there an opening message in the trial stating that it is in development and some features may differ from the final retail version?

Sure, but it's a not something that was expected to change.

Even the final demo from 2 weeks ago didn't implement this restriction.

 

[ironcreed]

Whenever I've summoned other players in souls games to help me I also treat it as a bit of an "education" of sorts. The ability to observe what weapons/build that person is using and how they go about dealing with a particular enemy or boss. It's also supposed to be a learning experience so that you can take away something that you didn't know about or think of before and utilise it for the rest of your playthrough after the summoned player is gone.

This is me as well.

 

[vg260]

Sure, but it's a not something that was expected to change.

Even the final demo from 2 weeks ago didn't implement this restriction.

but it still had that warning. They explicitly said features may differ for this very reason, and you had to confirm to proceed, so changes were fair game. Bummer, but again, it's a lesson learned about pre-ordering.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

I didn't even know this had co-op, nor was I expecting it to. I never play Souls games for the co-op aspect. When I do partner up with someone it's to help them and get me some extra souls/humanity.

I completed all souls games alone and BB etc, No problem with that. My friends on the other hand don't like these games, Then i told them about the co-op feature etc and they were onboard, They loved BB, DS3 and enjoyed the nioh last chance trial, It's fun to co-op games like these with friends, As they'll never play them otherwise.

It's what makes the decision to change it from a few weeks ago more baffling, People who want it for the SP experience are still getting it.

I would have to go through the game myself just so i can co-op it with them, Would be ok, But not as much fun as it would be doing it blind.

 

[zewone]

but it still had that warning. They explicitly said features may differ for this very reason, and you had to confirm to proceed, so changes were fair game. Bummer, but again, it's a lesson learned about pre-ordering.

If the community is vocal about the issue (and it seems to be so if you check out Team Ninja's social media), this will likely get patched.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

but it still had that warning. They explicitly said features may differ for this very reason, and you had to confirm to proceed, so changes were fair game. Bummer, but again, it's a lesson learned about pre-ordering.

That's all well and good, But nothing between the last chance trial and release gave the impression it was changing, No leaked gameplay, No news from the devs etc. Had we known it was changing, Which like you say is fair game, We wouldn't have pre-ordered or bought it at release. We would have waited and got it further down the line.

If they released build notes before release about changes from the trial demo then fair enough.

 

[Kuni]

Well this is really disappointing, was just about to go home to co-op this with my buddy. We've gone through all the Soulsborne games together.

It's especially annoying as we played fine together on the Last Chance Trial... That's just misleading...

Now I'm wondering whether to even open it or return it...

 

[-tetsuo-]

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

I actually quite enjoy summoning people who have not cleared an area yet in souls games. Multiple people getting lost together and trying to communicate via emotes is great fun.

 

[vg260]

That's all well and good, But nothing between the last chance trial and release gave the impression it was changing, No leaked gameplay, No news from the devs etc. Had we known it was changing, Which like you say is fair game, We wouldn't have pre-ordered or bought it at release. We would have waited and got it further down the line.

If they released build notes before release about changes from the trial demo then fair enough.

Doesn't matter. If someone is complaining about somehow getting duped, there's no valid argument there, as the last chance demo clearly gave that message, and you had to confirm it to proceed. It wasn't hidden away in a wall of text anywhere. It was right there when you started. It's cool if they respond and patch due to overwhelming feedback, but the warning was there. If you bought it without 100% confirmation of the final game's features, it's unfortunate, but that's on you.

 

[Augemitbutter]

I'm honestly kinda relieved to here this. My friend was really badgering me to co-op the whole game with him and I HATE playing Souls games in Co-op in anyway my first run. I always have to do everything 100% solo the first time around or my experience to take everything in is really ruined. I have an excuse not to play with him now.

yea, always going solo first in souls. best way to play.

 

[Hanmik]

That's all well and good, But nothing between the last chance trial and release gave the impression it was changing, No leaked gameplay, No news from the devs etc. Had we known it was changing, Which like you say is fair game, We wouldn't have pre-ordered or bought it at release. We would have waited and got it further down the line.

If they released build notes before release about changes from the trial demo then fair enough.

Are you sure it changed?
Did you and a friend just install the demo, and cooped it from the beginning?

 

[Pandora012]

I'm honestly kinda relieved to here this. My friend was really badgering me to co-op the whole game with him and I HATE playing Souls games in Co-op in anyway my first run. I always have to do everything 100% solo the first time around or my experience to take everything in is really ruined. I have an excuse not to play with him now.

I mean, providing the ability to allow people to play together from the start doesn't prevent you from doing that.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Well this is really disappointing, was just about to go home to co-op this with my buddy. We've gone through all the Soulsborne games together.

It's especially annoying as we played fine together on the Last Chance Trial... That's just misleading...

Now I'm wondering whether to even open it or return it...

You can still co op together just fine, as long as you complete the missions first.

Of course if your purchase hinged solely on playing through the campaign blind co op, you should def just get rid of it

 

[cLOUDo]

if the Beta "sells" a game with a specific kind of co-op and then they change it in the final release
i agreed with the OP with his claim

To me is not an issue, but to the OP, and probably to many people, it is a problem
i undertand it

 

[BrianRoyale]

I see where the OP is coming from, he's in the same headspace as my friend. He loves playing souls games in co-op, he loves those games but has very limited time to play so he'd rather just play with me.
He's kind of set cause I love playing these games solo (at least the first run) and I'm playing it now (he's gonna wait till after he plays Horizon) so I'll be all set to co-op with him when he's ready to play.
It's not a problem for me, but I can understand, if you have Co-op in already why put in extra restrictions for it to play with a friend.

 

[ChrisD]

I don't even co-op in any of tbese games (frankly idk how), but I can see just how stupid the change was. I'm also a bit surprised how many (mostly early in the thread) of you are just shooting down OP's points as illegitimate. Like... Do none of you have gaming friends? I've bought $40 games on a whim because of multiplayer. These games are funner to me as a SP deal. But if somebody wanted to share the experience with a friend - if that's what they went in knowing the game was like because of the LCT - then they have a completely valid complaint. It's why they bought the game, and it's just as good a reason as you SP only purists who bought for dat sweet combat gameplay.

 

[BigTuna109]

Title change is less hyperbolic but still inaccurate. Nioh coop works as intended and it works smoothly. Title should be something like "Nioh co-op doesn't work the way I want so here's a long rant"


Edit: tbf, I get that he thought it would work a certain way because of the beta, but it's a beta. It's not like the developers promised a feature and then removed it at the last second. The game works as intended by the developers. Maybe they'll patch it if enough people ask, but I wouldn't hold my breath. If it's a deal breaker for you, I understand your disappointment, but I just don't think blind co-op matches the creators' vision for the game. That's just the way it is (probably).

Edit: OP is MUCH better now, but it still just comes down to op being salty you can't blind co-op with a specific person. Pretty much everything I already said still feels 100% true and applicable. Sorry op. I'm afraid you might just be SOL.

 

[Gattsu25]

Picture this:

You're struggling with an area of a level or a particular boss so you think oh I'll just summon another player to help me get past this bit and progress. Then to your dismay, the player you summon is a lower level than you, a worse player than you and to top it all of they don't have a clue how to get through that particular area either. So you both run around like headless chickens banging your heads against a wall until you die. All in all it ends up being a grand waste of both of your times.

Doesn't seem very practical does it?

You just described Dark Souls matchmaking.

Dark Souls co-op is good.

 

[True Fire]

Thank you for fixing the hyperbole in the title. I can live with someone's opinion, but calling it a DISASTER! is ridiculous

 

[see5harp]

Playing through an area blind with a friend is how I like to play a lot of the Souls games. I think they finally realized that it was stupid to get in the way on that use case scenario and now the Souls games finally has decent coop.

 

[The Hamburglar]

why would you want to play a game designed to be a solo difficulty game all the way through co-op?

playing bloodbourne in co-op was kinda fun, but ultimately devoid of ANY challenge.

nobody was duped, they never marketed it as a co-op action rpg.

 

[MasterMenace]

Re-vamped my entire OP to be more clear and constructive and discussed clearly how there are TWO co-op modes in Nioh. Seems people still don't understand this part!

Read it before you single-player folks start saying co-op is tacked on in Nioh and makes it EZ mode. Clearly you haven't heard of Tori-Gate Yokai with Companion mode in Nioh which is the balanced co-op version for Nioh. It's not just CO-OP. It's a co-op mode that's also challenging. Totally different form of co-op implementation than souls.

Do your research before coming into this thread without knowing how the game works.

why would you want to play a game designed to be a solo difficulty game all the way through co-op?

playing bloodbourne in co-op was kinda fun, but ultimately devoid of ANY challenge.

nobody was duped, they never marketed it as a co-op action rpg.

Your first statement shows me you don't read OP's. There are 2 co-op modes in Nioh. The second one is a balanced version crafted carefully by Team Ninja to make the co-op experience challenging.

Your second statement is also false because the Sony (the publisher) thought co-op was so important that it was the second thing to talk about on their website.
https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/nioh-ps4/

 

[a harpy]

I'm really sad because, while I'm sure this game is excellent, the co-op features of the Last Chance Trial were what really set it apart for me as a must-have. I'm glad I waited, now. I guess I'll pick it up in a sale. The way they decided to do co-op makes this a less valuable product for me.

I think it's worth voicing this opinion, even if it does not affect everyone, because the developers have been good about the way they use feedback in the past.