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[Geometric-Crusher]

I TOLD YOU guys that Helix would be the Surface of gaming PCs, maybe nice, 100% irrelevant.

xbox-pc is going to flop

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

isn't that all consoles the last 2 gens?

Nope

 

[SupremeJ]

Eeeeeh..... not really. Unless you're talking pre-built, and even then, there's no secret to it. Nothing is customized. They are shelf parts and easily to replicate. You couldn't build a PS5 Pro, however.

ML based upscaling, Path-tracing, multi framegeneration, etc

PCs "secret sauces"

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

The SoC is still custom

People not really reading what you said

 

[HeWhoWalks]

It's not that i disagree with your opinion, i don't see it as a typical gaming console either, but if they don't have any ideas for one, let them make a PC with their sticker on it instead.

if it's reasonable priced compared to other pre-built gaming PCs it might be an interesting offer, and if not, then whatever.

The caveat is that last sentence. "Reasonably priced" would have to mean weaker than said pre-builds. At that point, it's only real potential selling points are PC/Xbox exclusives again and/or backwards compatibility.

 

[kevboard]

There's a difference between input "gimmicks" and customized hardware. A rather large difference, in fact. This isn't just a removal of some useless spec, but slapping a pre-built PC together, throwing some Xbox logos on it, and serving the plate. If it works out, great (especially for people like me who will only be interested in it for the backwards compat implications), but otherwise, it is hardly exciting in the console space.

so in your opinion the Switch is just tablet with Nintendo stickers on it? because that system is purely stock Nvidia Tegra X1, zero modifications aside from turning the low power cores off in software.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

ML based upscaling, Path-tracing, multi framegeneration, etc

PCs "secret sauces"

No secret sauce to any of that. The better your hardware, the more likely you can do all of those things with acceptable framerates. That's not the same as a custom device that has some hidden power you can tap into.

Otherwise, the PS5 Pro has "secret sauce" in it which would render your point moot.

 

[squallbr]

Its a PC, no Secret Sauce, DPGU, Kraken , Velocity ,

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I mean....so fucking what.

Its still looks like a killer console

Spoiler

that you will likely pay dearly for

The Magnus APU looks to be solid and honestly I'd love to see it end up in laptops.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

so in your opinion the Switch is just tablet with Nintendo stickers on it? because that system is purely stock Nvidia Tegra X1, zero modifications aside from turning the low power cores off in software.

Um, yes? "If it works out, great". Which is exactly what's happening for the Switch 2. Its specs are hardly exciting or anything custom/exotic, but its game output is and will get better. The issue for this Xbox device is one they've been facing for a few gens now - not what their specs are, but what games make their system one you need to purchase to experience them.

 

[kevboard]

Um, yes?

and what's the issue with that?
was it an issue that the PS4 basically had no meaningful customisations?
the PS4 is almost in the same situation as the Helix from what we know. it also was essentially a stock AMD tech with no real meaningful additions.

 

[GoldenEye98]

Trading in my general hardware 5090 for a custom hardware PS5.

 

[Pokedot]

It's still 25% more powerful than the PS6 with 'special sauce' so who cares. What is there really to customize and invent when AMD has all the tech already made. The PS6 upscaler will probably be a rebranded FSR5. This also makes it easier for games to made since it's PC like in architecture. With every new generation consoles have converged to be PC like.

 

[Bojji]

No the PS5 had custom things added too.

- Kraken Decompressor Hardware
- Custom I/O Stack
- Oodle Kraken + Oodle Texture work
- Added a Geometry Engine
- Tempest 3D Audio

Isn't geometry engine just primitve shaders with Sony branding? I still don't know the answer to that.

and what's the issue with that?
was it an issue that the PS4 basically had no meaningful customisations?
the PS4 is almost in the same situation as the Helix from what we know. it also was essentially a stock AMD chip with no real meaningful additions.

Yeah, they only added ACE units or something vs. GCN 1.0.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

It's still 25% more powerful than the PS6 with 'special sauce' so who cares. What is there really to customize and invent when AMD has all the tech already. The PS6 upscaler will probably be a rebranded FSR5. This also makes it easier for games to made since it's PC like in architecture.

Unless the specs have been finalized for both devices, this is premature.

Besides, being a certain percentage more powerful than the PS5 already did nothing for Xbox. The bigger deal is always the games, and if this thing's price of admission far exceeds the PS6, that won't be a talking point anyway.

 

[SupremeJ]

No secret sauce to any of that. The better your hardware, the more likely you can do all of those things with acceptable framerates. That's not the same as a custom device that has some hidden power you can tap into.

Otherwise, the PS5 Pro has "secret sauce" in it which would render your point moot.

That's not true. Nvidia's tensor cores, AMD infinity cache are also the "secret sauce". Consoles are outdated compared to PCs already... PCs have a lot more sauce today.

 

[kevboard]

Yeah, they only added ACE units or something vs. GCN 1.0.

wait, weren't both consoles GCN2?

 

[PauloRoberto]

People not really reading what you said

Because its not needed. As today, MS simply has no leverage to guarantee a X number of customized hardware to be sold, so im could BET that this SEMI customization (for backwards compat) will be part of other AMD (and Intel, why not?) chips in some years (or even months). And again, the moment it will be easier or cheaper to pivot away from this strategy, MS will, to hell with shills.

 

[RoboFu]

Nope

What would be the special sauce for each , Xbox one , ps4, series x, and ps5? I'm genuinely curious. As far as I know they all use standard AMD cpus and gpus. .

Switch 1 and 2 uses standard Nvidia chips.

 

[kevboard]

Because its not needed. As today, MS simply has no leverage to guarantee a X number of customized hardware to be sold, so im could BET that this SEMI customization (for backwards compat) will be part of other AMD (and Intel, why not?) chips in some years (or even months). And again, the moment it will be easier or cheaper to pivot away from this strategy, MS will, to hell with shills.

dude, the APU in the Helix is custom... what are you talking about they "can't guarantee X number sold"? just because they don't add any features on top of RDNA5 doesn't mean it's not a custom piece of hardware

 

[deriks]

Surface had a run at a point.

Did it thou?

 

[HeWhoWalks]

and what's the issue with that?
was it an issue that the PS4 basically had no meaningful customisations?
the PS4 is almost in the same situation as the Helix from what we know. it also was essentially a stock AMD tech with no real meaningful additions.

Did you actually read the rest of the post?

SupremeJ

Doesn't matter how behind consoles are to PCs. "More power" is not secret sauce. It is what it says it is - more raw power. Consoles have always been behind. Outside of needing a 5090 for a specific set of instructions, what you get is all your basic proprietary features that have existed since the dawn of these types of devices.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

MS can name it whatever they like, if I can outsource the exact parts in some enclosure, its a pre-built PC!

So you think AMD will sell this Helix chip to consumers?

 

[kevboard]

What would be the special sauce for each , Xbox one , ps4, series x, and ps5? I'm genuinely curious. As far as I know they all use standard AMD cpus and gpus. .

Switch 1 and 2 uses standard Nvidia chips.

Xbox One had it's eSRAM on the die to mitigate the DDR3 speed deficit.

so in a way, it was more custom than the PS4... and that was a bad thing in the end, because that eSRAM made the Xbox One die more expensive than the PS4 die... while being less powerful...

 

[Venom Snake]

The caveat is that last sentence. "Reasonably priced" would have to mean weaker than said pre-builds. At that point, it's only real potential selling points are PC/Xbox exclusives again and/or backwards compatibility.

Maybe i'm naive, but i believe that MS will be able to use subsidized hardware strategy to build a solid foundation for future software sales revenue, sacrifice one for the other i mean. Otherwise, what would be the point of all this?

If they want to go down this route they have to be competitive from the very start, otherwise their hardware will be DOA.

 

[Bojji]

wait, weren't both consoles GCN2?

I think Xbox is stock GCN 1.0 with custom memory architecture. PS4 has more ACE units (later added to 1.1/2.0).

PS4 is based on Pitcairn and Xbox on Cape Verde. I don't know why TPU lists PS4 as GCN 2.0 - you could say that based on ACE units but it's not exactly true.

 

[kevboard]

Did you actually read the rest of the post?

I quoted your full post before you edited it. but even so, having fully stock tech is nothing new and was a big success for both Nintendo and Sony before it's literally a non-issue

 

[Steve Holt]

There's a difference between input "gimmicks" and customized hardware. A rather large difference, in fact. This isn't just a removal of some useless spec, but slapping a pre-built PC together, throwing some Xbox logos on it, and serving the plate. If it works out, great (especially for people like me who will only be interested in it for the backwards compat implications), but otherwise, it is hardly exciting in the console space.

It doesn't sound like it's in that space at all.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Maybe i'm naive, but i believe that MS will be able to use subsidized hardware strategy to build a solid foundation for future software sales revenue, sacrifice one for the other i mean. Otherwise, what would be the point of all this?

If they want to go down this route they have to be competitive from the very start, otherwise their hardware will be DOA.

Good points.

 

[DR3AM]

GamePass and 25% faster than PS6 are the extra secret sauces

 

[GigantorX]

Did it thou?

It did. And just when it needed some umph, some sheparding, maybe handled by a corp that knows what it's doing with product and marketing of hardware

Microsoft ghosted it. Like fucking Mac mother fucking Dillon in Predator

 

[HeWhoWalks]

I quoted your full post before you edited it. but even so, having fully stock tech is nothing new and was a big success for both Nintendo and Sony before it's literally a non-issue

I said it was nothing exciting. Their biggest issue remains games. I'm not sure what's getting tangled in knots here.

Steve Holt

Touché

 

[Ebrietas]

And yet another thread where people will twist and contort themselves into believing this is something other than a Windows PC with some Xbox decals.

 

[mckmas8808]

I quoted your full post before you edited it. but even so, having fully stock tech is nothing new and was a big success for both Nintendo and Sony before it's literally a non-issue

Why do people always do the #SonyToo thing in threads like these?

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Why do people always do the #SonyToo thing in threads like these?

 

[bitbydeath]

it did close the gap, but it's not something future consoles realistically need anymore.

I feel like we will see less and less modifications to the base AMD hardware going forward from both manufacturers.

it's not like it negatively affected Nintendo to go with essentially purely stock Nvidia hardware either for their last 2 systems.

Depends if they come up with something new like hardware based AI integration.

 

[Bojji]

I guess NPU will be special sauce vs. PS6. Copilot will run smoothly thanks to this

 

[kevboard]

I said it was nothing exciting. Their biggest issue remains games. I'm not sure what's getting tangled in knots here.

no new consoles will be exciting anymore these days. those days are long over. the moment MS and Sony went with AMD APUs we are basically stuck with consoles that are almost laptops in a console shell.

the few changes done, like Sony having RDNA1 with some RDNA2 features added, aren't really exciting... it's "custom" because that's not stock RDNA1 or RDNA2, but it's not something that makes it interesting.

the most "custom" stuff we see these days is stuff you wouldn't notice if it wasn't specifically highlighted. in practice, while playing a game, it's all invisible to the user. like you wouldn't be able to tell if a game is running on a PS5 or Series X if you didn't see the button labels.

back on PS360 you might have been able to notice that a game uses Quincunx AA, and that would tell you it's a PS3 game... and in another game you might notice MSAA, which would make it more likely to be an Xbox 360 game.
and even those differences were already very monor.


the Switch 2 is kinda exciting... but only because it's at least not AMD.
but it is stock Nvidia... the Switch 1 was even more stock Nvidia, to the point where it didn't even have a custom SOC .

so that's where we are basically. Nintendo is the most exciting because at least it is stock Nvidia and not stock AMD like the other 2

 

[PauloRoberto]

dude, the APU in the Helix is custom... what are you talking about they "can't guarantee X number sold"? just because they don't add any features on top of RDNA5 doesn't mean it's not a custom piece of hardware

Im talking about the fact that AMD will use the same tech in other products/processors because the numbers dont add up

 

[ExtendEmbraceExtinguish]

Great; now only two questions remain: will Msft start counting the yearly 200 million oem as Xbox ? And will we get nextgen every year (aka bc it's a pc) via rdna6 gpus (ect) used to advertise Xbox games.

This will be fun for the enthusiast market if they can push software including 3rd party.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

no new consoles will be exciting anymore these days. those days are long over. the moment MS and Sony went with AMD APUs we are basically stuck with consoles that are almost laptops in a console shell.

the few changes done, like Sony having RDNA1 with some RDNA2 features added, aren't really exciting... it's "custom" because that's not stock RDNA1 or RDNA2, but it's not something that makes it interesting.

the most "custom" stuff we see these days is stuff you wouldn't notice if it wasn't specifically highlighted. in practice, while playing a game, it's all invisible to the user. like you wouldn't be able to tell if a game is running on a PS5 or Series X if you didn't see the button labels.

back on PS360 you might have been able to notice that a game uses Quincunx AA, and that would tell you it's a PS3 game... and in another game you might notice MSAA, which would make it more likely to be an Xbox 360 game.
and even those differences were already very monor.

For the most part, no argument. At best, we'll get the sort of thing we see out of the PS5; where it uses its custom APU to allow its proc and card to access the same memory pool (brilliant, I might add, and something PCs haven't quite done yet), but otherwise, yes, most of this stuff will either be custom parts based on shelf specs or full on pre-built-style PCs with logos/brands slapped on them. My point really is to tame expectations with these things because we'll no longer be seeing exotic hardware with magic tricks anymore.

 

[GigantorX]

Xbox returns to PowerPC and Edram?

 

[kevboard]

Im talking about the fact that AMD will use the same tech in other products/processors because the numbers dont add up

uh... what? AMD also uses the PS5's tech in other products... and used the PS4 tech in other products... and will use the PS6 tech in other products...

what do you think these consoles are? super secret tech that AMD developers exclusively for them?

 

[RoboFu]

Xbox One had it's eSRAM on the die to mitigate the DDR3 speed deficit.

so in a way, it was more custom than the PS4... and that was a bad thing in the end, because that eSRAM made the Xbox One die more expensive than the PS4 die... while being less powerful...

Ehh I wouldn't call that a " secret sauce ". When I think secret sauce I think .. snes mode 7, Ps2 emotion engine. The ps3 cell cpu. Actual custom chips that push things no one else is pushing.

 

[PauloRoberto]

uh... what? AMD also uses the PS5's tech in other products... and used the PS4 tech in other products... and will use the PS6 tech in other products...

what do you think these consoles are? super secret tech that AMD developers exclusively for them?

So, can you use all the SSD resources of PS5 in other PCs, for example? Im not questioning if these resources are good or bad. Im ANNOUCING (and ignoring you, i wont lose time with shills) that the secret sauce of helix (IF IT IS RELEASED) will be part of all new pcs, and helix will be as important to the market as surface.

 

[kevboard]

Ehh I wouldn't call that a " secret sauce ". When I think secret sauce I think .. snes mode 7, Ps2 emotion engine. The ps3 cell cpu. Actual custom chips that push things no one else is pushing.

it was supposed to be its secret sauce.

Microsoft expected Sony to use 4GB GDDR5 memory due to the ram prices during development.
Microsoft went with 8GB DDR3 + eSRAM to bridge the bandwidth gap to the PS4, while having twice the amount of memory.

but memory prices went down, and Sony did a last minute change to 8GB GDDR5 to match the Xbox's memory pool while beating its bandwidth, and having a smaller die.

so the secret sauce became a handicap

 

[PauloRoberto]

So you think AMD will sell this Helix chip to consumers?

After some months/years. I am particually SURE it will be available on other machines.

 

[kevboard]

So, can you use all the SSD resources of PS5 in other PCs, for example? Im not questioning if these resources are good or bad. Im ANNOUCING (and ignoring you, i wont lose time with shills) that the secret sauce of helix (IF IT IS RELEASED) will be part of all new pcs, and helix will be as important to the market as surface.

I really don't think you know how any of this works...

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

So just a regular PC.

 

[StereoVsn]

Will I have to use Windows update too, lol?

It will have Office, Defender and Copilot as well. It will be the best AshaBox ever!