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[Palculator]

I feel that quiet is not just sexist towards women due to her depiction but sexist towards men too. As we can all agree that quets attire exists primarily to pander to men I find the view that "men will buy this because men like tits and nearly naked girls" pretty gross . It makes the assumption that all men are controlled by their libido and are incapable of enjoying something for its own merits without shoehorning in extreme fanservice (the B&B unit counts as this too, I just was at an age where I didn't really understand the complications of this kind of pandering).

Quite frankly I find it insulting and it's one of the main reasons I rally behind feminist discussion of media in this way, because it's currently the only movement working to dismantle tropes that are applied to men, tropes that are often "enforced" in negative ways through societal pressures, (MRA is a joke that actually attempts to enforce these tropes :/ ) .

That's not to say that you can't enjoy T&A. It's just that in the context of metal gear it wasn't this "extreme" until MGS4. In all the previous games it was either in a context that worked really well (MGS3 Eva) or it was just being ever so slightly coy( Meryl) without ruining the character. Yes metal gear has a history of not being serious. But Quiet isn't isn't the kind of "not serious" the mgs franchise is known for :/ Its known for amusing gameplay interactions but the story is always played seriously (even though it is hammy at times).

Kojima has been sexualising his female characters basically since he started making them and he started doing that even more so once he got enough of a budget to hire models he likes. Just look at Yumi Kikuchi making an appearance as a pin-up poster in MGS3 only to be cast as Raging Raven in her skin-tight bodysuit or Kojima hanging out with Joosten all the time. Quiet is more indicative of his (and Shinkawa's, I guess but that dude thinks guns and mechs are sexy too) tastes than his assumptions about men in general. Neither was the titillation Quiet brings after you perform the optional steps of killing her non-lethally, hiring her, taking her with you and maxing out her bonds focus of the marketing which was more concerned with her thematic purpose and role in the story. So it's rather silly to get upset at some supposed indirect misrepresentation of men when the only thing supporting that view is an overdose of confirmation bias

 

[hodgy100]

Kojima has been sexualising his female characters basically since he started making them and he started doing that even more so once he got enough of a budget to hire models he likes. Just look at Yumi Kikuchi making an appearance as a pin-up poster in MGS3 only to be cast as Raging Raven in her skin-tight bodysuit or Kojima hanging out with Joosten all the time. Quiet is more indicative of his (and Shinkawa's, I guess but that dude thinks guns and mechs are sexy too) tastes than his assumptions about men in general. Neither was the titillation Quiet brings after you perform the optional steps of killing her non-lethally, hiring her, taking her with you and maxing out her bonds focus of the marketing which was more concerned with her thematic purpose and role in the story. So it's rather silly to get upset at some supposed indirect misrepresentation of men when the only thing supporting that view is an overdose of confirmation bias

Yes it was always "there" but it was never the focus Like is is in MGS4 and more so the focus in MGS5.

I'm not arguing that its never been there but that it has gotten more "in your face" over time. It's pretty easy to ignore a pinup poster as its a minor art asset, it can even fit into a small context as people do own and like pinup posters and these are usually on the inside of a personal locker its an entirely believable occurrence. Implying that the existance of such minor things in the past games makes quet ok is missing the point. Even if it is to the taste of the creators, it's pushed into your face to such a ridiculous degree that you can't ignore it.

To the second part of your post I didn't mean that quiet existence in the story was merely to cater to the male libido but her design and the way she's portrayed a lot of the time is. Which is why it sticks out like a sore thumb, It seems at odds with her actual character and story arch.

 

[Palculator]

Yes it was always "there" but it was never the focus Like is is in MGS4 and more so the focus in MGS5.

I'm not arguing that its never been there but that it has gotten more "in your face" over time. It's pretty easy to ignore a pinup poster as its a minor art asset, it can even fit into a small context as people do own and like pinup posters and these are usually on the inside of a personal locker its an entirely believable occurrence. Implying that the existance of such minor things in the past games makes quet ok is missing the point. Even if it is to the taste of the creators, it's pushed into your face to such a ridiculous degree that you can't ignore it.

To the second part of your post I didn't mean that quiet existence in the story was merely to cater to the male libido but her design and the way she's portrayed a lot of the time is. Which is why it sticks out like a sore thumb, It seems at odds with her actual character and story arch.

My point was more that the blatant sexualisation isn't Kojima thinking men are purely driven by their libido but Kojima being driven by his libido, which is why I think calling Quiet "sexist against men" due to supposedly misrepresenting their interests doesn't really make sense. Yes, her titillation might appear out of place, but it doesn't seem like it was Kojima thinking "those simple-minded men" wouldn't enjoy her otherwise.

 

[hodgy100]

My point was more that the blatant sexualisation isn't Kojima thinking men are purely driven by their libido but Kojima being driven by his libido, which is why I think calling Quiet "sexist against men" due to supposedly misrepresenting their interests doesn't really make sense. Yes, her titillation might appear out of place, but it doesn't seem like it was Kojima thinking "those simple-minded men" wouldn't enjoy her otherwise.

well we are getting into conjecture here as we don't really know kojima's intention. But regardless that is how it makes me feel, that doesn't mean "it is" so to speak I'm just providing my point of view, in hopes that others can see how and why this kind of critique comes about and how the interpretation of the consumers is jut as important as the artist's vision.

 

[Palculator]

well we are getting into conjecture here as we don't really know kojima's intention. But regardless that is how it makes me feel, that doesn't mean "it is" so to speak I'm just providing my point of view, in hopes that others can see how and why this kind of critique comes about and how the interpretation of the consumers is jut as important as the artist's vision.

Sure, I love reader-response criticism. But we're not just getting into conjecture, it started with you asserting the purpose of Quiet's attire to garner more sales and taking umbrage with how this reflects on men. If we remove whatever authorial intent we could infer and just focus on how the game actually portrays her, saying her character is "sexist against men" still feels off-base. First, the men in the game aren't protrayed as purely driven by their libido so poor representation in this regard by the actual characters isn't really present. Second, the fan serving parts of Quiet only unlock after you already cared about Quiet enough to increase her bond. Third, the game never treats the titillating aspects as the main interest for you since her alliance with Cipher is what you care about narratively (initially, anyway) and her as a companion is your interest gameplay-wise. These things clash with the representation of men as only being interested in or somehow magically swayed by T&A, in my opinion.

Yes, you probably can find many situations that might support this interpretation. But regarding the problem of trying to find one "-ism" a work supports I'll quote an earlier post I made about how that doesn't really work:

The problem that people are running into again and again (and this isn't just about you, Raist, just quoting you because it's the most appropriate point to jump off of) is that no work short of literal propaganda is ever purely in favour of or opposed to any one "-ism" and getting hung up on whether it is will just lead to an endless back and forth between people interpreting it through the lens of whatever such "-ism" they care about. This goes both for saying Quiet is somehow sexist (not even gonna address personal attacks) or that Quiet is some badass sex-positive empowered female because the game offers enough ground for both (and many more) interpretations. Which is unfortunate because the majority of this thread and others like these have been going in circles never advancing past the "No, but I have the correctest interpretation!"-phase.

 

[TheChillyAcademic]

I have to wonder if the reason I like her so much as a character (just finished the game, completely) has to do with me being gay, I had no draw or issue really with her physical appearance.

I have to think that was her appearance different, the character would be looked upon differently...much differently.