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[LPride]

Anyway calling Quiet the most embarassing gaming character is short sighted.

Like, haven't you all played Bulletstorm? Every line of dialogue is "Im going to kill your dick" or something similar


e: "RIP my robot dinosaur pal, I was going to name him Waggleton P Assmunch but now he will never know"

 

[A Link to the Past]

Anyway calling Quiet the most embarassing gaming character is short sighted.

Like, haven't you all played Bulletstorm? Every line of dialogue is "Im going to kill your dick" or something similar


e: "RIP my robot dinosaur pal, I was going to name him Waggleton P Assmunch but now he will never know"

While I don't really care much about MGS, a lot of people like MGS as a matter of it feeling like an elevated game series, and it was also one of the biggest games this year.

 

[Camp Freddie]

She is also illiterate, unable to use any sort of voice synthesiser, or learn one of the other languages from the large numbers of multilingual translators that hang around mother base.

It's just nonsence and a terrible character design from start to finish.
MGS has a lot of nonsense, but it usually has some humour or something to go with it. Quite is this horrid mish-mash of serious 'empowered' supersoldier badass, gritty rape/torture, silliness and sexiness that comes across as utterly incoherent.

I'll add that this is not like Bulletstorm, which was a joke/parody of FPS games. The lines and characters were intentionally silly, and this tone was maintained throughout the game. I guess people might find the juvenille humour embarrassing, which is fine.
Same thing with the Deadpool game. It is exactly what you expect, so the sexualisation doesn't feel out of context. It's not something you'd recommend your mum/wife/girlfriend to play, but it was designed to appeal to teenage boys and never tries to pretend otherwise.

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

She is also illiterate, unable to use any sort of voice synthesiser, or learn one of the other languages from the large numbers of multilingual translators that hang around mother base.

There has to be some suspension of disbelief in fiction.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

There has to be some suspension of disbelief in fiction.

Yup. Not to forget that Quiet mentions she chose to be silent, and not just vocally.

 

[Russ T]

Anyway calling Quiet the most embarassing gaming character is short sighted.

Like, haven't you all played Bulletstorm? Every line of dialogue is "Im going to kill your dick" or something similar


e: "RIP my robot dinosaur pal, I was going to name him Waggleton P Assmunch but now he will never know"

Yeah, but that's never played up as serious. It is what it is, and the developers make a point of marketing it that way.

This was different. This was Kojima telling us that there was a good reason, and that all the fetishization of Quiet would lead to people feeling ashamed, like they'd done something wrong. He literally said that!

There's a big difference between something played up for laughs and gross objectification justified by flimsy plot points.

 

[Mael]

Anyway calling Quiet the most embarassing gaming character is short sighted.

Like, haven't you all played Bulletstorm? Every line of dialogue is "Im going to kill your dick" or something similar


e: "RIP my robot dinosaur pal, I was going to name him Waggleton P Assmunch but now he will never know"

Bulletstorm is actually consistent in its setting, if you accept the premise the game is pretty upfront about its design.
The issue here is that in a franchise that is marketed as a big mature event in gaming this is a big pill to swallow.
If you changed everything questionable about Quiet and replaced it with Teletubbies dialog totally played straight we would probably be having the same conversation but without the sexist undertone.

If the game was clearly set in a world of Dead Or Alive, we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
Heck we didn't have it for that flimsy excuse of a volleyball game and its sequel.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Bulletstorm is actually consistent in its setting, if you accept the premise the game is pretty upfront about its design.
The issue here is that in a franchise that is marketed as a big mature event in gaming this is a big pill to swallow.
If you changed everything questionable about Quiet and replaced it with Teletubbies dialog totally played straight we would probably be having the same conversation but without the sexist undertone.

This is MGS. The same MGS its always been. And if we're talking about how it was marketed, I would say MGS4 was marketed as more mature than V. The same MGSV that had a fultoned goat on display at the last E3. While the story is darker than previous entries, the cheesier/funnier aspects of it are definitely lighter than previous entries as well.

 

[DireStr8s]

This is really just Kojima ripping off Springbreakers.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

And as we discussed the camera looking at her tits is actually not as egregious as you made it out to be.

Yeah right. Do we need to post that plethora of gifs again?

Also, let girls talk about what makes girls worst or better. Let them fight their fight.

Edit: i say this because a lot of girls doesn't have issues with Quiet, and they like her.

Oh my god. Why do you assume that every poster here is male?

And why are you so utterly dismissive of the female points of views that do have an issue with it? Christ.

I don't know what's so embarrassing in Quiet. Look at Grayson Hunt in Bulletstorm or Blazkowicz in Wolfenstein. It's ok for male characters to be overly sexified, but there's always something wrong in female characters made the same way. Biased or what?

How in the seven hells in Blazkowicz "overly sexified"? That should be good.

Are you seriously suggesting that male characters are as routinely degraded into objectification the way female characters are? LOL

Oh my god, what? Jesus. I'm out.

I'm skeptical of that.

But you're so blind that you see Quiet just as an object and nothing else. This is sexist, sorry. You are more sexist of who created her and gave her a backstory and strong powers.

Hahahaha what

 

[Mael]

This is MGS. The same MGS its always been. And if we're talking about how it was marketed, I would say MGS4 was marketed as more mature than V. The same MGSV that had a fultoned goat on display at the last E3. While the story is darker than previous entries, the cheesier/funnier aspects of it are definitely lighter than previous entries as well.

Yeah, no.
PW was similarly marketed as a serious affair and stuffs (which also features the fulton, vocaloids and other random elements).
If the whole sequence of an underage girl running in underwear was more prominent in the marketing you could sure as hell see this kind of discussion about inappropriate content making the cut.
The very fact that the design have to be explained to even start to make sense to anyone is indicative that it's really not a good design which is probably the bigger problem in my book.

Are you seriously suggesting that male characters are as routinely degraded into objectification the way female characters are? LOL

I'd like a quick expansion on that with examples because really outside of some very specific media, that's not happening at all.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yeah right. Do we need to post that plethora of gifs again?

Are they all of the torture scene I was referring to? In the context of the scene? Please do.

Yeah, no.
PW was similarly marketed as a serious affair and stuffs (which also features the fulton, vocaloids and other random elements).
If the whole sequence of an underage girl running in underwear was more prominent in the marketing you could sure as hell see this kind of discussion about inappropriate content making the cut.
The very fact that the design have to be explained to even start to make sense to anyone is indicative that it's really not a good design which is probably the bigger problem in my book.

Thats the point. MGS is a weird series. And considering that Quiet in the rain or posing in the helicopter wasnt marketed...what, they arent allowed to show Quiet in marketing now? All the games are marketed as serious things, with jokey things sprinkled throughout. Whether its the barrel gag from MGS4 sprinkled at the end of a very serious trailer, or the croc hat again, added in a trailer, to say these games are marketed as super serious is a bit fallacious.

 

[Mael]

Thats the point. MGS is a weird series. And considering that Quiet in the rain or posing in the helicopter wasnt marketed...what, they arent allowed to show Quiet in marketing now? All the games are marketed as serious things, with jokey things sprinkled throughout. Whether its the barrel gag from MGS4 sprinkled at the end of a very serious trailer, or the croc hat again, added in a trailer, to say these games are marketed as super serious is a bit fallacious.

The problem being that Quiet would have been ok as a side thing in the game that wasn't to be taken seriously no one would be discussing this.
The issue is that we have Quiet as a big part of the game that is totally played straight.
That's why Quiet is a bigger problem than DoAX3 or whatever is called that boob game.
If I have an issue with Quiet personally, the issue is clearly the uninteresting crappy design.
That it's not even a parody or some kind of joke is the icing on the cake.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The problem being that Quiet would have been ok as a side thing in the game that wasn't to be taken seriously no one would be discussing this.
The issue is that we have Quiet as a big part of the game that is totally played straight.
That's why Quiet is a bigger problem than DoAX3 or whatever is called that boob game.
If I have an issue with Quiet personally, the issue is clearly the uninteresting crappy design.
That it's not even a parody or some kind of joke is the icing on the cake.

Technically, she can be a side thing. You can kill her when you first meet her and then not have to deal with her. Yes she is shown in the trailers, because she is a character in a game that showed its whole hand before release.

 

[Mael]

Technically, she can be a side thing. You can kill her when you first meet her and then not have to deal with her. Yes she is shown in the trailers, because she is a character in a game that showed its whole hand before release.

That's definitely the route I'm taking if I ever get around to this game.
That or she'll be put on a bus or something.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's definitely the route I'm taking if I ever get around to this game.
That or she'll be put on a bus or something.

That's totally an option you can take if you don't want to deal with Quiet. And I think it's alright that the game gives you that option.

Granted, like I mentioned I dislike how they patched Quiet back in after she left the base. Lessens the impact of her stage exit.

 

[10k]

I just beat MGSV last week. Shitty ending to an otherwise GOTY contender for me.

As per Quiet's character, if Kojima had just given her that ripped nylon all over her body instead of just her legs it would have been more appropriate and still fit in to the lore.

Or just straight up admit she's eye candy. Overall she was a very useful character in game and her story wasn't bad, she just didn't need to be three quarters naked to accomplish what she did.

 

[Palculator]

Yeah right. Do we need to post that plethora of gifs again?

Please do. Hope you don't mean the .gifs from the chopper where the player controls the camera.

 

[Crossing Eden]

There has to be some suspension of disbelief in fiction.

There has to be suspension of disbelief but there also has to be well written believability. Quiet is the opposite of that. You have to go out of your way to be convinced by the shit you're seeing being the intent was so transparent. It's like Padme dying at the end of ROTS of a broken heart while completely healthy. You have to completely go out of your way to believe that nonsense because it's contrived as hell or subsequently fans come to the defense and use headcanon to defend the contrivance. Honestly Quiet is treated the same way that Meghan Fox replacement in that one transformers movie was treated. Michael Bay focused on telling the audience how hot she is instead of crafting an actual character.

 

[Russ T]

Please do. Hope you don't mean the .gifs from the chopper where the player controls the camera.

You what. You what.

You have to EXPLICITLY move the camera away from Quiet to not get tits and ass shaking in your face all the time.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

There has to be suspension of disbelief but there also has to be well written believability. Quiet is the opposite of that. You have to go out of your way to be convinced by the shit you're seeing being the intent was so transparent. It's like Padme dying at the end of ROTS of a broken heart while completely healthy. You have to completely go out of your way to believe that nonsense because it's contrived as hell or subsequently fans come to the defense and use headcanon to defend the contrivance. Honestly Quiet is treated the same way that Meghan Fox replacement in that one transformers movie was treated. Michael Bay focused on telling the audience how hot she is instead of crafting an actual character.

"Go out of the way to be convinced by the shit you're seeing."
Series where there's psychics, flaming hulks, gigantic flaming whale, old people who gain strength through nature, old man who can talk to parasites, a group of modified people who turn into rock and throw giant rocks at you, and the tipping point is a women who had her lungs burnt and the parasites made her breath through her skin. Truly ludicrous!

"Contrived as hell...use headcanon"
I dunno, you never rebuked any of my rebuttals towards you. All you've had are obfuscated comments and misleading arguments.

"Treated the same way as Meghan Fox's replacement."
Oh, here you are making things up again. Michael Bay did this, Michael Bay did that, Quiet is the same thing!

Convincing argument.

 

[Palculator]

You what. You what.

You have to EXPLICITLY move the camera away from Quiet to not get tits and ass shaking in your face all the time.

My camera starts off looking at Venom in the ACC. That's how it's designed. And it's beside the point. This is about the supposed leering of the cutscene camera to which the ACC .gifs are irrelevant.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"Go out of the way to be convinced by the shit you're seeing."
Series where there's psychics, flaming hulks, gigantic flaming whale, old people who gain strength through nature, old man who can talk to parasites, a group of modified people who turn into rock and throw giant rocks at you, and the tipping point is a women who had her lungs burnt and the parasites made her breath through her skin. Truly ludicrous!

"Contrived as hell...use headcanon"
I dunno, you never rebuked any of my rebuttals towards you. All you've had are obfuscated comments and misleading arguments.

"Treated the same way as Meghan Fox's replacement."
Oh, here you are making things up again. Michael Bay did this, Michael Bay did that, Quiet is the same thing!

Convincing argument.

Yes, the series where there's psychics, flaming hulks, and old people who gain strength through nature somehow couldn't figure out how to do proper writing that didn't feel contrived at all for the most important female character in the magnum opus. Yes the tipping point is that, because unlock all of those other characters, who weren't designed with fanservice and cosplay/figurine sales in mind. She was, and is treated differently in nearly every scene she partakes in just like every other woman in the game who isn't a generic soldier you can recruit, (which btw unlocks a sexist as hell achievement). Because obviously the antithesis to video game women thing was total bullshit. Scenes like this:

all are the creator saying how hot the character is.
In the exact same way that Michael Bay does this:

It serves no purpose other than cheap titilation

Right down to the exact same way both actresses are told to do a dead eyed lustful stare, mouth slightly open, with the head slightly tilted.

And you just used handcannon to justify your argument, I stopped when I was supposed to believe this bullshit

A "Super Skilled Trained Assassin".
A "Master of Stealth and Infiltration."

Stop making up things. There is nothing in the game that even says that lol

Because an assassin working for the big bad who snuck through a full hospital took out a nurse without anyone hearing and then proceeded to kill an armed doctor is just a rookie right?

There's just no point with you because you handwave so many contrivances like the fact that she wasn't wearing a mask at all despite not wanting her face to be seen. You absolkutely refuse to admit that kojima is capable of bad writing, contrivances, and sexism, yet at the same time use the same old "it's metal gear it's supposed to be stupid suspend your disbelief" argument when it suits you.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yes, the series where there's psychics, flaming hulks, and old people who gain strength through nature somehow couldn't figure out how to do proper writing that didn't feel contrived at all for the most important female character in the magnum opus. Yes the tipping point is that, because unlock all of those other characters, who weren't designed with fanservice and cosplay/figurine sales in mind. She was, and is treated differently in nearly every scene she partakes in just like every other woman in the game who isn't a generic soldier you can recruit, (which btw unlocks a sexist as hell achievement).

You say contrived writing, yet don't explain it. It makes sense lore wise. Her lungs burned, she needs to breathe, the parasites provided her a way to breathe. Makes sense. Fits in line with the lore. Just because you dislike it, doesn't mean it's 'not proper writing' whatever that means.

Let's disseminate the gifs.

1st Gif-The maximum bond scene, where Quiet and Snake share an animesque moment in the rain. It's over the top and stupid, indeed. I've said that much.
2nd Gif-No egregious zooming in, just a shot of her walking away.
3rd Gif-Quiet takes agency and makes Snake shower with her
4th Gif-Shower scene with Quiet

I was hoping you'd have some gives of the attempted rape or the torture scene, seeing as how you made the titillating argument that the camera was egregiously zooming in during those parts.

Then the Michael Bay Gif, which if you'll notice the actress isn't taking agency of the scene like Quiet does. Yes, fixing the car, but she doesn't take control of the scene like when she destroys those troops near her end or when she makes Snake take a shower with her.

And then there's-

Right down to the exact same way both actresses are told to do a dead eyed lustful stare, mouth slightly open, with the head slightly tilted.

It's not the same exact same way, actually, a lustful stare with mouth slightly open is actually quite cliche. You accrediting it to michael bay is more...more credit than he deserves, surely.

But please, while you're at it what's my 'headcanon' you're so fond of saying. Like Russ T said and employed, let's see how dismissive you can be.

Because an assassin working for the big bad who snuck through a full hospital took out a nurse without anyone hearing and then proceeded to kill an armed doctor is just a rookie right?

Did I say she was a rookie? No. That doesn't mean she's a...what was it you said? A "Super Skilled Trained Assassin". A "Master of Stealth and Infiltration." She had a whole team backing her up, so much for a 'Super Skilled Trained Assassin', a 'Master of Stealth and Infiltration'.

There's just no point with you because you handwave so many contrivances like the fact that she wasn't wearing a mask at all despite not wanting her face to be seen. You absolkutely refuse to admit that kojima is capable of bad writing, contrivances, and sexism, yet at the same time use the same old "it's metal gear it's supposed to be stupid suspend your disbelief" argument when it suits you.

Yup, and I actually talked about this. Right here. It's a plot point to further the plot. Like I said, if you wanted a realistic infiltration of the hospital to kill snake, the game would've ended then and there with her putting 2 bullets, one in VS and one in Ishmael.

Circles. I like them.

 

[Crossing Eden]

You say contrived writing, yet don't explain it. It makes sense lore wise. Her lungs burned, she needs to breathe, the parasites provided her a way to breathe. Makes sense. Fits in line with the lore. Just because you dislike it, doesn't mean it's 'not proper writing' whatever that means.

Let's disseminate the gifs.

1st Gif-The maximum bond scene, where Quiet and Snake share an animesque moment in the rain. It's over the top and stupid, indeed. I've said that much.
2nd Gif-No egregious zooming in, just a shot of her walking away.
3rd Gif-Quiet takes agency and makes Snake shower with her
4th Gif-Shower scene with Quiet

I was hoping you'd have some gives of the attempted rape or the torture scene, seeing as how you made the titillating argument that the camera was egregiously zooming in during those parts.

Then the Michael Bay Gif, which if you'll notice the actress isn't taking agency of the scene like Quiet does. Yes, fixing the car, but she doesn't take control of the scene like when she destroys those troops near her end or when she makes Snake take a shower with her.

And then there's-


It's not the same exact same way, actually, a lustful stare with mouth slightly open is actually quite cliche. You accrediting it to michael bay is more...more credit than he deserves, surely.

But please, while you're at it what's my 'headcanon' you're so fond of saying. Like Russ T said and employed, let's see how dismissive you can be.

I've already explained over and over how contrived her plot is. Not wearing a mask is the main reason why she got burned in the first place.
"The other patient saw my face"
would've never happened and *pop* Venom dead. Her specific version of the deus ex machina nanomachines aka parasites specifically heal her skin and give her super powers but somehow can't heal her lungs. Every part of her plot line shows that she was a design first story later character, fuck Kojima even admitted that she was designed that way for cosplay and figurine sales. He straight up admitted his intentions, yet still we have fans pretending like there's some nuance behind the way the character walks or has less expressions than Kristen Stewart in Twilight. Quiet has no agency in the scenes where she's sexualized, it's just there, it's completely out of place in a super grimdark narrative full of very gruff men shouting at each other while child soldiers are brought up because Kojima read lord of the flies one day. There there's the Michael Bay comparison, this is exactly what i'm talking about. First you say this:

"Treated the same way as Meghan Fox's replacement."
Oh, here you are making things up again. Michael Bay did this, Michael Bay did that, Quiet is the same thing!

I provide an objective visual of nearly the exact same shot and expression given to the two actresses with the purpose to titillate the audience.

It's not the same exact same way, actually, a lustful stare with mouth slightly open is actually quite cliche. You accrediting it to michael bay is more...more credit than he deserves, surely.

"uh uhh..Michael Bay didn't come up with that stare you know."

That's in no way shape or form the point that's being made or relevant.

This is exactly the issue. There's absolutely zero agency in the actress being told to walk slowly away from the camera after big gruff man protagonist puts his hand on her shoulder surrounded by multiple men wearing thematically appropriate clothing. Just like there's no agency in Meghan Fox's character being car smart in a movie about robot cars. Both characters are absolutely diminished by sexualization, but at least one of the creators wasn't pretending like his product was incredibly deep and mature enough to move a medium forward.

 

[thesolidshark]

Yes the tipping point is that, because unlock all of those other characters, who weren't designed with fanservice and cosplay/figurine sales in mind.

When you say "unlock," you're talking about the buddies of the game?

Not wearing a mask is the main reason why she got burned in the first place.
"The other patient saw my face"
would've never happened and *pop* Venom dead.

Wouldn't the other patient have protected him either way? As from what I remember in the prologue, she went for Venom first, then Ishmael tackled her to the floor.

 

[Crossing Eden]

When you say "unlock," you're talking about the buddies of the game?

Typo---->unlike. My bad.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I've already explained over and over how contrived her plot is. Not wearing a mask is the main reason why she got burned in the first place.
"The other patient saw my face"
would've never happened and *pop* Venom dead. Her specific version of the deus ex machina nanomachines aka parasites specifically heal her skin and give her super powers but somehow can't heal her lungs. Every part of her plot line shows that she was a design first story later character, fuck Kojima even admitted that she was designed that way for cosplay and figurine sales. He straight up admitted his intentions, yet still we have fans pretending like there's some nuance behind the way the character walks or has less expressions than Kristen Stewart in Twilight. Quiet has no agency in the scenes where she's sexualized, it's just there, it's completely out of place in a super grimdark narrative full of very gruff men shouting at each other while child soldiers are brought up because Kojima read lord of the flies one day.

Yes, she was more erotic than your standard fare. To Kojima, this means bikini and torn nylon. When we take it out of the vacuum however, then you realize that the whole serious has had things like this, from finding the soldier who's ass wiggles, to the sniper with a zipped down front, a bald leather daddy, to shirtless men, to an erotic bi-vampire-esque male who can't die, to the crotch grabbing an effeminate male just to make sure, a female ops who wears a 1-piece bikini, to the naked for no reason traversing the colon of an MG arsenal, to the sexy female spy, the motherly almost oedipal relationship with a woman, to the travesty that is MGS4.

Also...Quiet does indeed have agency in scenes where she's sexualized. In fact, when she doesn't have agency she ISN'T sexualized like you think she is. I've actually discussed this previously before. Yes, she is set against a grim dark world, because that's how every MGS game is.

Like...let's take things out of context. Like what if there was a huge, bulbous character who exclaimed how pretty his hands were, that he was the life of the party, and drank wine. Completely ludicrous and ridiculous for a seriously grim game! But when you take everything into context, it somehow makes sense. When you take into context that this world has parasites that modify a person, someone who breathes through skin isn't ludicrous.

Could Quiet have been designed better? Of course. But is she lacking agency? No. Does she just exist because of a 'sexist creators[citation needed]' need to create a sexist misogynist character? Probably not.

I provide an objective visual of nearly the exact same shot and expression given to the two actresses with the purpose to titillate the audience.

It's...a cliche pose? And again, you don't get this unless you raise the bond with her in the game. It's not just 'there' despite what you may think.

"uh uhh..Michael Bay didn't come up with that stare you know."

That's in no way shape or form the point that's being made or relevant.

This is exactly the issue. There's absolutely zero agency in the actress being told to walk slowly away from the camera after big gruff man protagonist puts his hand on her shoulder surrounded by multiple men wearing thematically appropriate clothing.

Again, it's a cliche stare. The 'longing, long stare into your eyes'. There's nothing wrong with having a cliche in your serious video game.

If you want to get meta, no female character has agency in a video game. There is an illusion of agency, yes, and Quiet displays much agency in that illusion. But if you want to go down this slope, you'll find that very few female characters have 'agency' except for the agency they are written to have. If they are perceived to have agency, we say they have agency despite knowing in the back of our minds they were written that way. Again, I've given examples of Quiet having agency. You say she has none.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes, she was more erotic than your standard fare. To Kojima, this means bikini and torn nylon. When we take it out of the vacuum however, then you realize that the whole serious has had things like this, from finding the soldier who's ass wiggles, to the sniper with a zipped down front, a bald leather daddy, to shirtless men, to an erotic bi-vampire-esque male who can't die, to the crotch grabbing an effeminate male just to make sure, a female ops who wears a 1-piece bikini, to the naked for no reason traversing the colon of an MG arsenal, to the sexy female spy, the motherly almost oedipal relationship with a woman, to the travesty that is MGS4.

Also...Quiet does indeed have agency in scenes where she's sexualized. In fact, when she doesn't have agency she ISN'T sexualized like you think she is. I've actually discussed this previously before. Yes, she is set against a grim dark world, because that's how every MGS game is.

Like...let's take things out of context. Like what if there was a huge, bulbous character who exclaimed how pretty his hands were, that he was the life of the party, and drank wine. Completely ludicrous and ridiculous for a seriously grim game! But when you take everything into context, it somehow makes sense. When you take into context that this world has parasites that modify a person, someone who breathes through skin isn't ludicrous.

Could Quiet have been designed better? Of course. But is she lacking agency? No. Does she just exist because of a 'sexist creators[citation needed]' need to create a sexist misogynist character? Probably not.

Except that MGSV's story is so "dark" that the creator felt the need to put in "humorous" gameplay elements to compensate for it. MGSV when it comes to the series is in a vacuum because it takes itself infinitely more seriously than any other game in the series. The closest thing this game gets to even being remotely as intentionally lighthearted as any other game in the series, (which do have dramatic moments mind you), is the birthday scene. So when we take everything into context AND out of context, Quiet every other woman seen in the game absolutely stick out like a sore thumb. It's undoubtedly a nearly perfect example of sexism in a game that it's actually baffling how that isn't registering for you or how you're creating "agency" for a character who is barely a character especially in comparison to all the well written women in games we've seen this year who weren't meant to be titillating at all.

 

[Russ T]

Like Russ T said and employed, let's see how dismissive you can be.

Listen, it's flattering that you have some sort of obsession with me, but please don't project your own issues outward. Look instead inward and realize that you can change. You don't have to be a jerk.

 

[thesolidshark]

Except that MGSV's story is so "dark" that the creator felt the need to put in "humorous" gameplay elements to compensate for it. MGSV when it comes to the series is in a vacuum because it takes itself infinitely more seriously than any other game in the series. The closest thing this game gets to even being remotely as intentionally lighthearted as any other game in the series, (which do have dramatic moments mind you), is the birthday scene.

Things like the hamburger tapes and the chicken hat were about as lighthearted as previous games attempt at humor to me. And for the bolded, given Kojima's track record with Metal Gear, was there any reason to believe that TPP wouldn't have had those humorous elements, no matter how light or dark the game was supposed to be?

 

[CelticVegas]

I wanted to turn back here because maybe the discussion was changed.

But it's sad to see that Russ T and Crossing Eden are still here blocking everything someone else says.

This is not a discussion and you will never change your mind or agree on something.

There are really interesting and right points made in Quiet's favor. You just say "no" and block the discussion. I don't know why this thread is still open.

 

[Russ T]

You just say "no" and block the discussion.

Show me where I ever did this? I mean I'm 99% sure you're trolling, but just in case, let's clear up this misunderstanding. I have engaged on many points over and over to the point of tedium. If you think that's saying "no" and blocking the discussion, let's see if we can solve this problem you have.

And Crossing Eden has been infinitely more forgiving and patient than me. I can see where you might dislike my expressed frustration at certain dismissive tones, but Crossing Eden has done no such thing.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Except that MGSV's story is so "dark" that the creator felt the need to put in "humorous" gameplay elements to compensate for it. MGSV when it comes to the series is in a vacuum because it takes itself infinitely more seriously than any other game in the series. The closest thing this game gets to even being remotely as intentionally lighthearted as any other game in the series, (which do have dramatic moments mind you), is the birthday scene. So when we take everything into context AND out of context, Quiet every other woman seen in the game absolutely stick out like a sore thumb. It's undoubtedly a nearly perfect example of sexism in a game that it's actually baffling how that isn't registering for you or how you're creating "agency" for a character who is barely a character especially in comparison to all the well written women in games we've seen this year who weren't meant to be titillating at all.

MGS as a series has always had humorous elements to it. Cardboard box, magazines to distract soldiers, getting peed on, slipping on bird poop, crocodile helmet, shooting frogs, rolling around in a barrel, shooting a beehive to distract guards, I mean you're acting like this is the first game in the series to have 'humorous' elements. The chick hat serves a gameplay purpose of making it easier for players, which again isn't farfetched to the serious.

You cite the only lighthearted moment being the birthday scene. Well, there's the puppy scene, every scene ddog is in is pretty lighthearted, the burger tapes, the various joke tapes around the game(Some which serve a purpose, like informing a guard that you're dead or pooping), so no this game doesn't exist in a vacuum just because you say it is.

And the reason it isn't a 'perfect example of sexism' is because this thread exists and continues to exist. The fact that a discussion can spring from this and examples can be provided for both sides prove that it's more complicated than that. And it's funny you say I'm 'creating agency'. Then again all you have are .gifs out of context...so here, a scene from one of your gifs. Quiet takes control of the situation, makes Snake follow her.
https://youtu.be/T-W8oeK5YVc?t=33s

But of course your gif only has the bit with her ass after it. No, there is Quiet displaying agency and taking control of the situation instead of letting ocelot shower snake with a bucket. That is one of the many moments where she displays agency(another one you giffed, trying to kill you in the beginning).

That is a form of agency, whether you like it or not. That is Quiet doing something not told by you, but written to do that yes(As is every other female character in every other game before we go down that slippery slope) but still a form of agency displayed by her.

 

[thesolidshark]

This is not a discussion and you will never change your mind or agree on something.

Not sure about the blocking, but I've seen both sides push against each other over Quiet almost equally. And while I believe most had a good point to make, and while I believe it actually is a discussion, the bolded is probably true for either side who agrees or disagrees with the thread premise.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Things like the hamburger tapes and the chicken hat were about as lighthearted as previous games attempt at humor to me. And for the bolded, given Kojima's track record with Metal Gear, was there any reason to believe that TPP wouldn't have had those humorous elements, no matter how light or dark the game was supposed to be?

I expected less tonal dissonance from the game that aimed for a photo-realistic art style, less anime influence, incredibly serious trailers, vagina bombs, and subjects like rape and child child soldiers in Africa being shown or as the creator puts it "Has things that need to be addressed in games to push the medium forward." It's why the tonal dissonance and women in the game stick out like sore thumbs in comparison.

MGS as a series has always had humorous elements to it. Cardboard box, magazines to distract soldiers, getting peed on, slipping on bird poop, crocodile helmet, shooting frogs, rolling around in a barrel, shooting a beehive to distract guards, I mean you're acting like this is the first game in the series to have 'humorous' elements. The chick hat serves a gameplay purpose of making it easier for players, which again isn't farfetched to the serious.

You cite the only lighthearted moment being the birthday scene. Well, there's the puppy scene, every scene ddog is in is pretty lighthearted, the burger tapes, the various joke tapes around the game(Some which serve a purpose, like informing a guard that you're dead or pooping), so no this game doesn't exist in a vacuum just because you say it is.

And the reason it isn't a 'perfect example of sexism' is because this thread exists and continues to exist. The fact that a discussion can spring from this and examples can be provided for both sides prove that it's more complicated than that. And it's funny you say I'm 'creating agency'. Then again all you have are .gifs out of context...so here, a scene from one of your gifs. Quiet takes control of the situation, makes Snake follow her.
https://youtu.be/T-W8oeK5YVc?t=33s

But of course your gif only has the bit with her ass after it. No, there is Quiet displaying agency and taking control of the situation instead of letting ocelot shower snake with a bucket. That is one of the many moments where she displays agency(The other one again, trying to kill you in the beginning).

That is a form of agency, whether you like it or not. That is Quiet doing something not told by you, but written to do that yes(As is every other female character in every other game before we go down that slippery slope) but still a form of agency displayed by her.

I feel that many who read this thread, or most of the audience, would raise eyebrows at some of the defense of Quiet. To say it isn't sexism at this point after all the evidence in this thread as well as the intentions of the creator not to mention his track record is being woefully disingenuous. Even people who like her as a character as shown in this thread. And by humorous moments I mean explicit cutscenes. Yes the DDog moments are more lighthearted in tone but the vast majority of the cutscenes never get anywhere near as silly as past games even when they're lighthearted. Quiet didn't take control of the camera and make it zoom in on her butt, that's not agency in anyway shape or form. It like so many other moments involving the character serve as cheap titillation for the perceived male audience.

 

[injurai]

Quite is so fine that even her critics can't get themselves away from her.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I feel that many who read this thread, or most of the audience, would raise eyebrows at some of the defense of Quiet. To say it isn't sexism at this point after all the evidence in this thread as well as the intentions of the creator not to mention his track record is being woefully disingenuous. Even people who like her as a character as shown in this thread. And by humorous moments I mean explicit cutscenes. Yes the DDog moments are more lighthearted in tone but the vast majority of the cutscenes never get anywhere near as silly as past games even when they're lighthearted.

It isn't sexism just because you say it is. And I feel I've provided sufficient counter-evidence to prove that point, even now you're dismissing it as 'Wow I can't believe you really don't think it's sexist'. You're moving the goal posts, I showed you Quiet having agency. And it is dismissed because you can't tackle it directly, because it weakens your argument.

And you're moving the goalposts on the game being 'lighthearted'. Yes, every game is usually deadly serious. MGS1-Nuclear threat. Very few lighthearted cutscenes. MGS2. President is kidnapped. The lighthearted cutscenes are...thinking to it, the Vulcan Raven scene in the Tanker, and Raiden getting his balls grabbed. Rose meeting up with Raiden is a bit lighthearted compared to what transpired.

There are lighthearted moments throughout the series-whether through codecs, gameplay elements, MGS3 is probably the most lighthearted game of the 5 if we only include cutscenes. MGS4 is pretty bleak and dark in comparison, but Johnny Sasaki provides good comedy relief in it, and some of the only lighthearted moment in that game. But it is still an incredibly dark game. Snakes an old man, dying, otacon is a wreck over the prospect of Snakes death(And eventually naomis).

To assign this seriousness to MGSV as if that's the only game in the serious that is serious is well...ill-done the way you're doing it. MGS as a game, like I've mentioned before, has always been a culmination of it's cutscenes and gameplay. It's a whole.

 

[TheHumanoid]

I love Quiet, that scene at the beginning of Mission 45 was sweet. Such a badass

 

[Vex_]

Quite is so fine that even her critics can't get themselves away from her.

Amen, brotha.

Fist bump*

Don't leave me hanging, bro.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It isn't sexism just because you say it is. And I feel I've provided sufficient counter-evidence to prove that point, even now you're dismissing it as 'Wow I can't believe you really don't think it's sexist'. You're moving the goal posts, I showed you Quiet having agency. And it is dismissed because you can't tackle it directly, because it weakens your argument.

And you're moving the goalposts on the game being 'lighthearted'. Yes, every game is usually deadly serious. MGS1-Nuclear threat. Very few lighthearted cutscenes. MGS2. President is kidnapped. The lighthearted cutscenes are...thinking to it, the Vulcan Raven scene in the Tanker, and Raiden getting his balls grabbed. Rose meeting up with Raiden is a bit lighthearted compared to what transpired.

There are lighthearted moments throughout the series-whether through codecs, gameplay elements, MGS3 is probably the most lighthearted game of the 5 if we only include cutscenes. MGS4 is pretty bleak and dark in comparison, but Johnny Sasaki provides good comedy relief in it, and some of the only lighthearted moment in that game. But it is still an incredibly dark game. Snakes an old man, dying, otacon is a wreck over the prospect of Snakes death(And eventually naomis).

To assign this seriousness to MGSV as if that's the only game in the serious that is serious is well...ill-done the way you're doing it. MGS as a game, like I've mentioned before, has always been a culmination of it's cutscenes and gameplay. It's a whole.

It is sexism because of the way it treats the character and how the other women in the game are treated. Come on dude. This is getting a bit much at this point. Oh my lord...I don't know what else can be said at this point because it's quite obvious that you have a very problematic view if you don't find this character sexist in anyway shape or form....I already talked about how MGSV is way more serious in comparison to previous metal gears yet you just won't stop repeating "No you see the series has lighthearted moments." You're coming up with nonsense to show how she has agency because apparently asking the player to tae a shower with you is what constitutes as agency for a women character and that part isn't totally diminished by a zoom in on her ass. Like I just can't anymore man...honestly.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Yup, and I actually talked about this. Right here. It's a plot point to further the plot. Like I said, if you wanted a realistic infiltration of the hospital to kill snake, the game would've ended then and there with her putting 2 bullets, one in VS and one in Ishmael.

Circles. I like them.

Of course we're going in circles, because you keep flipflopping between "it all actually makes sense contextually" and "it's a nonsensical game anyway and you need to suspend your beliefs."

Contrivances in fiction exist because logic is sacrificed for the sake of something else, and the audience suspend their beliefs because they don't mind the trade-off. Venom Snake wasn't shot in that hallway not because he's lucky, but because if he's shot the game would end. Cloud Strife is the only grunt not wearing helmet not because he got special permission due to his claustrophobia, but because we need to be able to spot him amongst all the helmet-wearing grunts. Quiet is practically naked not because she could only breathe through her skin, but because Kojima wanted to shame us of our words and deeds, whatever that means.

Understand that logic and sense were never the core of the criticism against Quiet. Those are things that are brought into the argument mostly by people who wants to use "context" and "background" as defenses, as if those two things were not entirely conjured up by the creators to begin with. Demonstrably, Kojima is one who freely forsake consistency, accuracy and realism for the sake of the themes he wants to convey and imagery he wants to show.

Above all else, he chose to write a woman who always wears thong, who can't help but dance erotically under the rain, who randomly decides to do suggestive poses in a helicopter when you get to know her better. He asked the audience to suspend their beliefs, and the critics decided that the trade-off is not worth it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

It is sexism because of the way it treats the character and how the other women in the game are treated. Come on dude. This is getting a bit much at this point. Oh my lord...I don't know what else can be said at this point because it's quite obvious that you have a very problematic view if you don't find this character sexist in anyway shape or form....I already talked about how MGSV is way more serious in comparison to previous metal gears yet you just won't stop repeating "No you see the series has lighthearted moments." You're coming up with nonsense to show how she has agency because apparently asking the player to tae a shower with you is what constitutes as agency for a women character and that part isn't totally diminished by a zoom in on her ass. Like I just can't anymore man...honestly.

The ad hominem is cute, instead of engaging my points you're simply being dismissive and questioning me, not my argument. Again, agency is displayed. You said she has no agency at all. I proved that she does, in fact have agency, and used one of your .gifs against you. Is this the only time she displays agency? No. Don't pretend it is.

Oh well. The fact that you've stopped engaging my arguments and now have to question my own morality and insinuate that I'm sexist is sad, really. I showed you some respect by not insulting you, and you can't do the same.

Of course we're going in circles, because you keep flipflopping between "it all actually makes sense contextually" and "it's a nonsensical game anyway and you need to suspend your beliefs."

Or both.

Contrivances in fiction exist because logic is sacrificed for the sake of something else, and the audience suspend their beliefs because they don't mind the trade-off. Venom Snake wasn't shot in that hallway not because he's lucky, but because if he's shot the game would end. Cloud Strife is the only grunt not wearing helmet not because he got special permission due to his claustrophobia, but because we need to be able to spot him amongst all the helmet-wearing grunts. Quiet is practically naked not because she could only breathe through her skin, but because Kojima wanted to shame us of our words and deeds, whatever that means.

Indeed it is, but that last bit you really lose your point. No, 'words and deeds' was silly indeed. Is that the reason she looks like that? ...no.

Understand that logic and sense were never the core of the criticism against Quiet. Those are things that are brought into the argument mostly by people who wants to use "context" and "background" as defenses, as if those two things were not entirely conjured up by the creators to begin with. Demonstrably, Kojima is one who freely forsake consistency, accuracy and realism for the sake of the themes he wants to convey and imagery he wants to show.

The logic is the in game lore. Context and background are important in any sense, actually. Again, I can show you a random scene where Bayonetta gets beat so bad she appears naked and clenching her ass as if she just got raped. Without the context or background of the two characters involved or why they're fighting, you are free to claim that is sexist. And what is a person supposed to do? Blindly agree without taking the context or background into consideration?

Above all else, he chose to write a woman who always wears thong, who can't help but dance erotically under the rain, who randomly decides to do suggestive poses in a helicopter when you get to know her better. He asked the audience to suspend their beliefs, and the critics decided that the trade-off is not worth it.

And that's fine you think that. But to abhorrently claim that it is sexist and ignoring any points against that, is well...short-sighted. Yes, when you take those things out of context, and present them as just that without any insight to the situation, they are incredibly horrible. But we don't do that, do we? No. Atleast, I don't because I tend to not obfuscate discussions to lean towards my incline with such mettle.

 

[grumble]

"Go out of the way to be convinced by the shit you're seeing."
Series where there's psychics, flaming hulks, gigantic flaming whale, old people who gain strength through nature, old man who can talk to parasites, a group of modified people who turn into rock and throw giant rocks at you, and the tipping point is a women who had her lungs burnt and the parasites made her breath through her skin. Truly ludicrous!

"Contrived as hell...use headcanon"
I dunno, you never rebuked any of my rebuttals towards you. All you've had are obfuscated comments and misleading arguments.

"Treated the same way as Meghan Fox's replacement."
Oh, here you are making things up again. Michael Bay did this, Michael Bay did that, Quiet is the same thing!

Convincing argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that quiet's main purpose wasn't to be a sex toy for the player? I mean it isn't even close to a grey area. It's glaringly obvious that she was.

 

[Sianos]

Perhaps Kojima was trying for an Evangelion-esque attempt at invoking self-loathing in the players paralleling the infamous Shinji masturbating over Asuka's comatose body scene, or to make players feel ashamed of their words and deeds as he says. However, perhaps due to the rushed development cycle of the game, I don't think he has succeeded at this at all. It's one thing to say we should be ashamed of our words and deeds, but it seems to me as though Kojima hadn't yet worked out why we should feel that way.

I think the character idea had potential, but it was not realized and in context I don't think his stated message was realized at all. Needed to do something more than have male gaze camera and then chastise players because she's a plant and breathes through her skin - as it stands this seems like a strange reverse 1000-year-old-dragon situation except for making you feel bad instead of good, and that's just sloppy writing to cover up unnecesary titilation.

And honestly, I think the only reason it worked in Evangelion was because of the overall tone, the fact that it tied into overarching themes of the harm objectifying women does to both remember and yourself, and that it was explicity demonstrated to be unacceptable in context through music choice, camera work, and character reaction - something MGSV fails at.

 

[Scrooge McDuck]

Or both.

You can't really have both. Well, I guess you can do the whole "this totally makes sense within the scope of this nonsensical context" and argue that the nonsensical context is some kind of a series' feature. But stupid explanations don't suddenly cancel out stupid decisions when the decisions are what I have problem with.

Indeed it is, but that last bit you really lose your point. No, 'words and deeds' was silly indeed. Is that the reason she looks like that? ...no.

I was actually being kind and that's the best light I could put Kojima in.

The logic is the in game lore. Context and background are important in any sense, actually. Again, I can show you a random scene where Bayonetta gets beat so bad she appears naked and clenching her ass as if she just got raped. Without the context or background of the two characters involved or why they're fighting, you are free to claim that is sexist. And what is a person supposed to do? Blindly agree without taking the context or background into consideration?

I'm saying that made-up contexts and backgrounds are not nearly enough as justifications.

It's a fictional work. Everything there should exists intentionally and with purpose. It's up to the creators to convey those purpose, and it's up to audience to judge whether that purpose has merits. Anything unintentional that seeps through, it's up to the audience to point that out.

And that's fine you think that. But to abhorrently claim that it is sexist and ignoring any points against that, is well...short-sighted. Yes, when you take those things out of context, and present them as just that without any insight to the situation, they are incredibly horrible. But we don't do that, do we? No. Atleast, I don't because I tend to not obfuscate discussions to lean towards my incline with such mettle.

What if I've considered all these context and intentions, and it still ultimately comes off as sexist to me? What if I feel whatever Kojima is trying to do doesn't really work? Like, maybe the visual directions are too strongly steeped in sexist cues that it eclipse any narrative subversion he might intend for the character? Assuming that this is unintentional on his part, should I just go "oh it's okay because he clearly doesn't mean to be sexist"?

 

[hodgy100]

I feel that quiet is not just sexist towards women due to her depiction but sexist towards men too. As we can all agree that quets attire exists primarily to pander to men I find the view that "men will buy this because men like tits and nearly naked girls" pretty gross . It makes the assumption that all men are controlled by their libido and are incapable of enjoying something for its own merits without shoehorning in extreme fanservice (the B&B unit counts as this too, I just was at an age where I didn't really understand the complications of this kind of pandering).

Quite frankly I find it insulting and it's one of the main reasons I rally behind feminist discussion of media in this way, because it's currently the only movement working to dismantle tropes that are applied to men, tropes that are often "enforced" in negative ways through societal pressures, (MRA is a joke that actually attempts to enforce these tropes :/ ) .

That's not to say that you can't enjoy T&A. It's just that in the context of metal gear it wasn't this "extreme" until MGS4. In all the previous games it was either in a context that worked really well (MGS3 Eva) or it was just being ever so slightly coy( Meryl) without ruining the character. Yes metal gear has a history of not being serious. But Quiet isn't isn't the kind of "not serious" the mgs franchise is known for :/ Its known for amusing gameplay interactions but the story is always played seriously (even though it is hammy at times).

 

[Russ T]

I feel that quiet is not just sexist towards women due to her depiction but sexist towards men too. As we can all agree that quets attire exists primarily to pander to men I find the view that "men will buy this because men like tits and nearly naked girls" pretty gross . It makes the assumption that all men are controlled by their libido and are incapable of enjoying something for its own merits without shoehorning in extreme fanservice (the B&B unit counts as this too, I just was at an age where I didn't really understand the complications of this kind of pandering).

Quite frankly I find it insulting and it's one of the main reasons I rally behind feminist discussion of media in this way, because it's currently the only movement working to dismantle tropes that are applied to men, tropes that are often "enforced" in negative ways through societal pressures, (MRA is a joke that actually attempts to enforce these tropes :/ ) .

That's not to say that you can't enjoy T&A. It's just that in the context of metal gear it wasn't this "extreme" until MGS4. In all the previous games it was either in a context that worked really well (MGS3 Eva) or it was just being ever so slightly coy( Meryl) without ruining the character. Yes metal gear has a history of not being serious. But Quiet isn't isn't the kind of "not serious" the mgs franchise is known for :/ Its known for amusing gameplay interactions but the story is always played seriously (even though it is hammy at times).

I completely agree with everything in this post.

I find it pretty insulting when people (such as some in this thread) assume that just because someone is attracted to women, that means they relish the opportunity to have T&A in their face all day every day. Though, to be fair, most of the people saying this are probably pretty young, and don't actually know how the world outside their high school bubble works. Lord knows I was ignorant back then, too.

 

[Sianos]

I feel that quiet is not just sexist towards women due to her depiction but sexist towards men too. As we can all agree that quets attire exists primarily to pander to men I find the view that "men will buy this because men like tits and nearly naked girls" pretty gross . It makes the assumption that all men are controlled by their libido and are incapable of enjoying something for its own merits without shoehorning in extreme fanservice (the B&B unit counts as this too, I just was at an age where I didn't really understand the complications of this kind of pandering).

Quite frankly I find it insulting and it's one of the main reasons I rally behind feminist discussion of media in this way, because it's currently the only movement working to dismantle tropes that are applied to men, tropes that are often "enforced" in negative ways through societal pressures, (MRA is a joke that actually attempts to enforce these tropes :/ ) .

That's not to say that you can't enjoy T&A. It's just that in the context of metal gear it wasn't this "extreme" until MGS4. In all the previous games it was either in a context that worked really well (MGS3 Eva) or it was just being ever so slightly coy( Meryl) without ruining the character. Yes metal gear has a history of not being serious. But Quiet isn't isn't the kind of "not serious" the mgs franchise is known for :/ Its known for amusing gameplay interactions but the story is always played seriously (even though it is hammy at times).

Indeed, I agree especially on how feminist movements and movements inspired by feminist philosophy such as the Good Men Project and the Campaign Against Living Miserably are the only ones to truly work to help men and work to stop the enforcement of societal archetypes that are harmful to both men and women.

The stated premise behind Quiet of a character to demonstrate the ills of such archetypes has the potential to be demonstrative, but in Quiet's case in execution it appears that it is just an excuse to engage on those archetypes. Perhaps her sloppy realization is due to rushed development, but either way I find it remarkably poorly done, almost a reverse 1000-year-old-dragon situation in terms of execution.

 

[Ekai]

This is still going. Men (or I guess Celtic anyway) are still assuming everyone here is male/dismisses every woman's view on this? And they're still patting each other on the back while they insult/ignore/hand-wave away/jump through logic hoops to everything everyone says?
I commend the people still trying to bother but these people don't want a conversation. That much is evident. Really don't get why this thread is still open, it's going nowhere and is a waste of people's time.