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Obama talks race and gender in Philly...

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Just a perfect speech. It won't work for soundbites, but fuck America's ignorance and stupidity - let them work for what the speech teaches.
 
Lefty42o said:
:lol

so glad they authorized invading iraq

WAIT MY BAD. THEY SAID FUCK NO.

next name those countries who broke away?

edit : United Kingdom, Australia, Poland, and Denmark all gave troops. i guess these 4 countries make up nato
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What did NATO do to stop us?

Jack and shit.
 
I found the speech really, really powerful, nuanced, sensitive, and intelligent.

I can't help but feel if we Americans don't recognize Obama as the best of our current three options, we deserve whatever we get.
 
ToyMachine228 said:
I just read all five of CNN's analysts reactions that they have up on CNN.Com and all five agreed not only that the speech was good, but it was the right move to make politically.
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Do you have a link?
 
APF said:
What's with all the jpgs? You think I can't source those facts? ;)


CHYME: my point is there's a difference between saying Kennedy / whomever "installed" Saddam, and saying the CIA supported some intrigue involving the Ba'ath party.
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There's quite a difference. Nowhere does it say that the CIA merely "supported some intrigue" (w/e the fuck that means) involving the Baath party. The assertion is that the CIA aided Saddam's rise to power to a LARGE extent.

The point about sources is on point since key sources quoted in that passage are themselves unsourced assertions.
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If you don't consider CIA officials to be sources, I don't know what to tell you. Sources don't get any more credible.
 
Lefty42o said:
while i do not believer that personally i have heard it a few times. i also understand why its said as well.

aids is killing africa. Aids is killing millions of blacks. blacks make up 13 percent of the population but make up more than 49 percent of new cases. America needs to address this issue in the black community and alot of thsoe blacks like wright feel very strongly about this.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/resources/factsheets/aa.htm

chart1.gif


while wright bends it and is very animated and at sometimes just wrong there is truth in everything i have heard him say.
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Here's something about HIV and Africans and Europeans... I don't know where exactly in the video does he mention this but he does at some point, watch the whole thing it's cool.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/80
 
Note your initial claim was "installed." Now you're backtracking to "aid." Note the distinction, when you're pressed to support your claim? Then you accept the fact that I was right in questioning the strength of your initial claim.


I severely question idea that a claim by an agent saying, f/e that he overheard something, is an unimpeachable source. Like all hearsay and claims of an anecdotal nature, far from it. All you have to do is ask whether or not an agent is trained as part of their job description to lie.
 
Anyone see the incredible hypocrisy in the fact that certain people on the one hand are downplaying or otherwise invalidating this speech as "just a speech," while on the other simultaneously using another speech (not even his own) to crucify him?

Apparently some words are just words, while others are a bit more.
 
Can you elaborate as to why this speech was 'nothing special', domokunrox, and point to other modern speeches about racism in America that are as profoundly complex and truthful and direct as this Obama speech was?

You can hate the man, dislike his politics, wish him gone - this speech, it transcends his candidacy. EVERY American should hear it, take it in, let it settle and then go out and do. It's the type of speech that crawls under your skin and makes you feel proud to be an American and simultaneously sad and guilty that you may, at times, harbor your own ignorance and racism.

If you can find any similar speech since Martin Luther King that has struck such a chord, that has been delivered as powerfully or as precisely, I will understand your position a little better.

People like to say Obama is 'just speeches', and at times that may be true. This however was exactly the reason why sometimes being a fucking brilliant public speaker can be an amazing asset.
 
Amir0x said:
Can you elaborate as to why this speech was 'nothing special', domokunrox, and point to other modern speeches about racism in America that are as profoundly complex and truthful and direct as this Obama speech was?

You can hate the man, dislike his politics, wish him gone - this speech, it transcends his candidacy. EVERY American should hear it, take it in, let it settle and then go out and do. It's the type of speech that crawls under your skin and makes you feel proud to be an American and simultaneously sad and guilty that you may, at times, harbor your own ignorance and racism.

If you can find any similar speech since Martin Luther King that has struck such a chord, that has been delivered as powerfully or as precisely, I will understand your position a little better.

People like to say Obama is 'just speeches', and at times that may be true. This however was exactly the reason why sometimes being a fucking brilliant public speaker can be an amazing asset.
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dont you get it. being an amazing speaker is now considered a negative strike against a political candidate. he is too well spoken. nothing special come out of the speech.
 
APF said:
Note your initial claim was "installed." Now you're backtracking to "aid." Note the distinction, when you're pressed to support your claim? Then you accept the fact that I was right in questioning the strength of your initial claim.
Click to expand...


Aid to a LARGE extent = install, practically. In other words, without the involvement of the CIA, Saddam Hussein would never have been in power.

I don't accept that you were right in "questioning the strength" of my initial claim. In fact, you initially did no such thing. You said my initial claims were false. You're actually the one who backtracked from "false" to "tenuous argument" to "questioning" when you were presented with some evidence. What's worse than an ignoramus? An ignoramus who pretends to know.

I severely question idea that a claim by an agent saying, f/e that he overheard something, is an unimpeachable source. Like all hearsay and claims of an anecdotal nature, far from it. All you have to do is ask whether or not an agent is trained as part of their job description to lie.
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Case in point.
 
Just posted this in the Poligaf thread.





Interest poll results regarding Obama's speech and chance for presidency.

Do you think Sen. Barack Obama successfully tackled the issue of race in his speech?
130782 responses


Yes. He answered the tough questions and wasn't afraid to be honest.
67%



No. He didn't ease my concerns about the divisive comments of his former pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright.
26%


I don't know. I need more time to review the points of his speech.
7.5%


Do you think the country is ready for a black president?
128730 responses


Yes. Obama proved he is ready to lead and bridge the racial divide.
66%


No. The underlying racial issues in this country have yet to be resolved.
20%


I don't know. I want to see how this speech is received by both black and white voters.
14%
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Edit:

Link
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/
 
I've watched the speech and read it twice and couldn't really put my finger on the problem I had with the substance of the speech. At first, I thought it was just the normal lack of substance that goes with a "spin" type speech from a politician. Then I figured it was just the contrarian in me turned off by the immediate fawning. Then I sort of contrasted it to one of the better speeches on race I have heard in my life, one given by Bill Cosby in Milwaukee a few years back. Anyway, before I could really formulate the differences I stumbled on this post by Michael Goldfarb of the (far right, wing nut, loony, neo-nazi...did I cover em all??) Weekly Standard and it summed up my feelings, to a point.

it turns out that Barack Obama is really no different than any other conventional liberal candidate for the presidency. He blames America, racism, and the past for the problems of today...The controversial speech that would have saved Obama's campaign is here, and it was delivered on the fiftieth anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education by a man who really has transcended race. On that day, Bill Cosby said, "Brown Versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person’s problem." He said "We cannot blame white people." And he spoke about a culture of accountability as the only path to success for Black America.
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When this thread started I kept saying that this was nothing new, but I failed to point to exactly what I meant mostly because I hadn't processed it yet (damn work getting in the way of message board posting). Well, this is pretty much my point. Obama isn't searching for answers, he's searching for scape goats:
We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's black and white students.
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Whether he is right or not at some point becomes moot. At some point beating people over the head with a past that can't be changed becomes pointless.

Once a politician gives a speech on race without framing it in a victim mentality, that will be the watershed moment in American racial relations.
 
mashoutposse said:
Anyone see the incredible hypocrisy in the fact that certain people on the one hand are downplaying or otherwise invalidating this speech as "just a speech," while on the other simultaneously using another speech (not even his own) to crucify him?

Apparently some words are just words, while others are a bit more.
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:lol that's a good point

"meh, Obama is just words. What about the SUBSTANCE??"

...

"WHAT? Obama's pastor said some mean words? ANTI AMERICAN COVERT MUSLIM OPERATIVE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE CONFIRMED"
 
soul creator said:
:lol that's a good point

"meh, Obama is just words. What about the SUBSTANCE??"

...

"WHAT? Obama's pastor said some mean words? ANTI AMERICAN COVERT MUSLIM OPERATIVE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE CONFIRMED"
Click to expand...

Calling yourself a uniter but having a bigoted racial separatist as a personal friend and mentor seems hypocritical as well.
 
eznark said:
Calling yourself a uniter but having a bigoted racial separatist as a personal friend and mentor seems hypocritical as well.
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Not really, you really do need all views. Uniting doesn't mean everyone but those guys.:P
 
eznark said:
Obama isn't searching for answers, he's searching for scape goats:
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you completely missed the whole point of his speech. it wasnt about laying blame to one side or the other. it was about confronting a very real issue in america, and tackling it head on. it was about trying to come together and realizing that these problems will never be fixed unless all sides sit down, acknowledge the issues, and try to find real solutions.
 
npm0925 said:
The Hardball crew is saying this is one of the greatest speeches in American history.
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To be fair, that's because Matthews' legs are a-jumpin' over it.

eznark: "blame" and "scapegoats" aren't the same thing as "reasons"
 
eznark said:
Whether he is right or not at some point becomes moot. At some point beating people over the head with a past that can't be changed becomes pointless.

Once a politician gives a speech on race without framing it in a victim mentality, that will be the watershed moment in American racial relations.
Click to expand...

So basically you're disappointed that though Obama is completely right, he is not completely original. You would rather someone change the landscape of the argument for the sake of your own entertainment instead of actively looking at the problems we face, the cause of these problems, and the solutions we must strive for.

Quaint.
 
eznark said:
I've watched the speech and read it twice and couldn't really put my finger on the problem I had with the substance of the speech. At first, I thought it was just the normal lack of substance that goes with a "spin" type speech from a politician. Then I figured it was just the contrarian in me turned off by the immediate fawning. Then I sort of contrasted it to one of the better speeches on race I have heard in my life, one given by Bill Cosby in Milwaukee a few years back. Anyway, before I could really formulate the differences I stumbled on this post by Michael Goldfarb of the (far right, wing nut, loony, neo-nazi...did I cover em all??) Weekly Standard and it summed up my feelings, to a point.



When this thread started I kept saying that this was nothing new, but I failed to point to exactly what I meant mostly because I hadn't processed it yet (damn work getting in the way of message board posting). Well, this is pretty much my point. Obama isn't searching for answers, he's searching for scape goats:

Whether he is right or not at some point becomes moot. At some point beating people over the head with a past that can't be changed becomes pointless.

Once a politician gives a speech on race without framing it in a victim mentality, that will be the watershed moment in American racial relations.
Click to expand...

if you think that, go read his book. If you want to come and just spout off stupid bullshit, do some research on the man. To say that Obama is just looking for scape goats to a racial problem proves your ignorance of him, and the issue.
 
eznark said:
Whether he is right or not at some point becomes moot. At some point beating people over the head with a past that can't be changed becomes pointless.

Once a politician gives a speech on race without framing it in a victim mentality, that will be the watershed moment in American racial relations.
Click to expand...

Barack Obama said:
For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances – for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives – by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American – and yes, conservative – notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright’s sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.
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...
 
eznark said:
You just blew my mind.

How does one unite a separatist?
Click to expand...

The same way you unite anyone, through discussion. That's part of the problem, people talk about race relations, but then they sit there and just hold out as evil the separatists like Farrrakhan and the KKK. Like it or not, they're also Americans. So it doesn't hurt to actually talk things out and listen, even with those whose views you vehemently oppose.
 
quadriplegicjon said:
you completely missed the whole point of his speech. it wasnt about laying blame to one side or the other. it was about confronting a very real issue in america, and tackling it head on. it was about trying to come together and realizing that these problems will never be fixed unless all sides sit down, acknowledge the issues, and try to find real solutions.
Click to expand...

I am fully open to that possibility.

I've been going over the speech all day though, and i really feel like I am completely getting the speech. I understand what he wanted people to take away from it, but I think the underlying message is the same as many activists who have come before him, topped with excellent rhetoric and delivered brilliantly.

The Hardball crew is saying this is one of the greatest speeches in American history.
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Did Obama make Chris Matthews erect again?
 
eznark said:
Calling yourself a uniter but having a bigoted racial separatist as a personal friend and mentor seems hypocritical as well.
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and jesus walked side by side with prostitutes, yet somehow I don't think his sermons and philosophies started taking on the roll of advocating prostitution.
 
eznark said:
I am fully open to that possibility.

I've been going over the speech all day though, and i really feel like I am completely getting the speech. I understand what he wanted people to take away from it, but I think the underlying message is the same as many activists who have come before him, topped with excellent rhetoric and delivered brilliantly.



Did Obama make Chris Matthews erect again?
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So, what's the message then?:P
 
thekad said:
So basically you're disappointed that though Obama is completely right, he is not completely original. You would rather someone change the landscape of the argument for the sake of your own entertainment instead of actively looking at the problems we face, the cause of these problems, and the solutions we must strive for.

Quaint.
Click to expand...

Word.
 
eznark said:
Once a politician gives a speech on race without framing it in a victim mentality, that will be the watershed moment in American racial relations.
Click to expand...
You are willfully stupid.
 
This is a strong speech. His awareness and understanding of the subjects that he speaks of are very impressive. He has a sort of fairness to his character, as if he acknowledges and respects all sides and characters. It is not all black and white to him.
 
Triumph said:
mlkfox.jpg




Something like that.
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Wait, Wait, please don't me the lovely Soledad O' Brian was once a member of the viper's nest that is FoxNews?
 
AmishNazi said:
When did someone laying out cause and effect cases become scapegoating? God no sense of responsibility in this country anymore.
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I agree probably more completely with that statement than you do.
 
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