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Obama talks race and gender in Philly...
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Phew, lots to respond to...but at least we're back to the speech.
When the cause and effect have been laid bare for 30 years, it's done with. Without forgiveness, acceptance, whatever "resolution" word you prefer solutions aren't attainable. Constantly pointing to causes from decades past eventually leads to resentment and an unwillingness to engage further.
It's an extension of the previous, pre-Iraq pre gang-banging discussion in this thread. I don't see how a speech can be world changing and "water shed" without some semblance of originality. I don't think you can necessarily effect change just by rephrasing previous ideas excellently.
soul creator, I didn't overlook that passage, I just felt (again, what I took away) that the rhetorical emphasis was more on the cause (the Jesse Jackson approach) and less on the solutions (the Cosby approach).
gcubed, I'm discussing this speech specifically, not Obama in general. It may well be that he is more than this speech, but I'm not going to read his book. If I can't get a feel for the guy after THIS never-ending political season, then no book is going to do it any better.
Clearly. I was just poking a little fun. Although, discussions with extremists is different than counting one of them as your personal mentor.
AmishNazi said:
When the cause and effect have been laid bare for 30 years, it's done with. Without forgiveness, acceptance, whatever "resolution" word you prefer solutions aren't attainable. Constantly pointing to causes from decades past eventually leads to resentment and an unwillingness to engage further.
It's an extension of the previous, pre-Iraq pre gang-banging discussion in this thread. I don't see how a speech can be world changing and "water shed" without some semblance of originality. I don't think you can necessarily effect change just by rephrasing previous ideas excellently.
soul creator, I didn't overlook that passage, I just felt (again, what I took away) that the rhetorical emphasis was more on the cause (the Jesse Jackson approach) and less on the solutions (the Cosby approach).
gcubed, I'm discussing this speech specifically, not Obama in general. It may well be that he is more than this speech, but I'm not going to read his book. If I can't get a feel for the guy after THIS never-ending political season, then no book is going to do it any better.
Clearly. I was just poking a little fun. Although, discussions with extremists is different than counting one of them as your personal mentor.
Dr. Kitty Muffins
Member
Quick poll:
Does this speech end the discussion of Reverend Wright and his relationship with Obama or not?
Does this speech end the discussion of Reverend Wright and his relationship with Obama or not?
kame-sennin
Member
thekad said:
I won't speak for eznark, but I think the issue here is that, America has no problem with a black president, so long as she doesn't remind us of her ethnicity. The term "post-racial" gets thrown about constantly, with little irony, by the mainstream media, and I think that's illustrative of what Americans want. They want to feel good about electing a black president, without having to feel bad about the consequences of slavery, Jim Crow, and segregation. Anyone who is willing to ignore that is considered "post-racial" and thus palatable to America. However, Obama's pastor isn't interested in whitewashing history, and thus Obama's own (selective) memory of American history is called into question. Right now, those who demand that Obama distance himself from Rev. Wright want to know whether Obama really wants to ignore history or not. "Is Obama going to throw race in our faces?", "does Obama want to play ball?", these - to me - are the implicit questions being asked. And when Obama makes even passing references to America's disgraceful history, alarm bells go off.
AmishNazi said:
What do you think of affirmative action, let people get in on their academics alone or no?
What do you think of the federal reserve nannying the economy, valiant steward or evil regulator?
What do you think of cities banning trans fat, health conscious or anti-consumer choice?
What do you think of public smoking bans, health conscious or anti-consumer?
What do you think of consensual cannibalism, (Meiwes) murder, or personal choice?
What do you think of social security, necessary program that should survive for all time, or program that younger generations should be able to opt out of?
I'm guessing here, but your opinion probably differs from mine (I avoided drugs, prostitution, etc. because I'm guessing you already support them, not because I don't)
Tamanon said:So, what's the message then?
blame whitey?
I'm not responsible for things that happened before I was born. I'm responsible for my life and my actions. I feel no "white guilt" any more than I feel guilty for have German ancestors.
That was the summation of Cosby's message when I heard him speak, and what struck a cord with me. Until you stop blaming others for your situation you can't help yourself.
Of course, I lean "libertopian" as well, although I fancy myself more pragmatic that the label would suggest.
Dr. Kitty Muffins said:
I'd say after another day or 2 of punditry it will for the most part. Of course Hannity and Rush will continue to hammer it into the ground, but that's kinda what they do
Hannity's started airing more and more clips of Rev Wright's statements, basically anything that mentions race, heh.Not, in fact, literally. Therefore, false. "Install" suggests an individual person is hand-picked and then literally put in a position. "Aid" suggests an operation is "aided," and events, not the CIA, moved in such a way that Hussein gained power. Your assertion was incorrect, and I was right to say so. Now stop challenging reality and move on to the actual subject of this thread.CHYME said:
eznark said:
Without knowing the history behind a problem how can you ever hope to fix it. Thing is these things haven't been laid bare in the last few decades. When you have people thinking that slavery is the last thing that black people have the right to feel angry about that becomes abundantly clear.
I think it more lies in the fact that people that didn't grow up in those decades take it as a personal attack on them. Which it's not.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Dr_Cogent said:
Have you ever heard of the Tuskegee experiment?
kame-sennin said:
I think I agree with all of that. Many, likes James Power in that other clusterfuck of a thread, want to either ignore the past or change it to fit their agenda. When reminded of the raw deal blacks and others have gotten in this country, otherwise well-thinking men and women shrink back under their rocks and don't want to deal with it.
edit: eznark is a libertopian. Now it all makes sense :lol
Here is his speech (part1) http://youtube.com/watch?v=ffxOSEj_sQM I'm watching it now.
I swear, Obama is the only candidate that can address the racial divisions of America, he can make factors to be considered clear on all sides of America.
The only presidential candidate I have ever felt like trusting, you can just see that he is really trying to make a difference.
I swear, Obama is the only candidate that can address the racial divisions of America, he can make factors to be considered clear on all sides of America.
The only presidential candidate I have ever felt like trusting, you can just see that he is really trying to make a difference.
mashoutposse
Ante Up
eznark said:
You start by finding out why he/she became one in the first place.
domokunrox
Banned
Amir0x said:
Ok, first part of his speech is just nothing relevant. Then he basically tells his background. Basically he says that all of his family is part of every race and color (basically telling you he represents the values of every race and color). Then he basically says that white people support him. Then he addresses some damage control for Jeremiah Wright for himself, and then sort of attempted to make it seem somewhat justified. Then he basically says that nobody should be racist right now (which is sort of rediculous since you can't turn stereotyping thats been built up for many years off like a facet). He says it distorts realty, when the realty is that the statistics for the average black male to find himself in the federal prison is very real. The teen black pregnancy rate is very real. The gangs in oakland is very real. The homicide in oakland, richmond, LA, Laredo are all very real. Its not just blacks. Its everyone and the statistics are there, its VERY real guys. To say people amplify it and distort it is just being in denial.
Then he basically says that black people have struggled and many of them have been robbed of the american dream, and then suddenly hes implying that YOU ALL are robbing him of the american dream if you don't elect him.
Then I sort of laughed when he referanced the OJ simpson trial. Then he complains about the race card.
Then he goes, we shouldn't be talking about race.....DUH! Why the hell are you talking about it now? Why aren't we talking about the issues?
So he starts.
We don't agree. Its not that we don't have Healthcare! WE DON'T HAVE MONEY! MOST OF US CANNOT EVEN DO THE COPAY!
Then he goes onto saying the worst thing he could ever say and that welfare and immigration are the problem, and he plays both sides of the ball.
Theres a problem with the healthcare, theres a problem with jobs, theres a problem with education. Overall, theres a problem with money, right?
Whats your policy?
I already know it and you know what? Obama isn't aggressive enough in his tax laws.
You know who is? Clinton is
Those are the FACTS, don't be amused by the speech, be amused that he is passionate about the issues, but Clinton has the better solution. Think about that.
Gaborn said:
Academics only. Only place I believe affirmative action has any place is college acceptance and even then as it stands now it's broken.
Gaborn said:
I don't think a private entity should have Federal in the name for one. Much less control our money and a huge part of our economy.
Gaborn said:
Anti-consumer choice. I do believe in trans fat labels though.
Gaborn said:
Anti-consumer. Don't like the fact that a place allows smoking don't go.
Gaborn said:
Don't know enough to spout a opinion.
Gaborn said:
Opt out. I'm sorry the government has already proven that they are horrible investors.
Gaborn said:
I'm more of a libertarian, but the ideals will never take off because the country wants to continue living at home with it's daddy. Instead of standing on it's own two feet.
One reason I wont vote for Obama is BECAUSE he insists on talking about race. Politicians in general focus on this WAY too much. Its pointless and stupid and out of place in an era where professional athletes and celebrities and music stars are all different races and backgrounds.
Dr. Kitty Muffins said:
Nope some fluff speach won't do anything. Instead of hiding behind a speach he should go and face the tough questions from one of his critics. He can also quit bitching about the media showing the clips over and over. The media kissed his ass until the last few days it is about time he faced what the other canidates have. I don't know how he can handle being president when he can't handle this tiny situation with out crying.
I hope this is the start of people finally figuring out Obama is no different than any other person in washington. He will spin and lie just like the others.
AmishNazi said:
Fair enough, you honestly surprised me. I don't know why, but for some reason I had you pegged as more liberal than libertarian. I agree with everything you said though. I know we'll never have a true libertarian society as I define it, but I guess all we can do is work to get closer to it.
XxenobladerxX
Member
I don't normally insult people on this bored,but i'm going to go ahead and say that you are fucking dumb if you really believe that.Innotech said:
mashoutposse
Ante Up
quest said:
He was on all the networks before this speech, including FOX. What else specifically can he do to address this issue?
Crying? Huh?
Tamanon said:When did he ever say immigration and welfare was the problem? Wow, must've gone through the hillaryis44 mirror
quest: Whose questions should he answer?
innotech: Um....he really didn't even bring race into the equation, the media did
Personally I would never vote Hillary, but I am still open to Obama, which is why I am intensely interested in this particular speech and how he handles his incendiary minister.
NullPointer
Member
eznark said:
Did you actually pay attention to the speech?
Obama said:
Bolded for easier comprehension.
Edit: less bolding for less eye strain
Innotech said:
are you serious? your arbiter of race relations is the fucking music industry! Also since when before this speech has Obama made race a strong point of his campaign? If im not mistaken its been hillary and the fauxnews ilk that have started this huge conversation of racial divide.
The articles I'm reading on the MSM sites right now have surprised me. For example, Newsweek has a good summary:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/124122/page/1
Most noteworthy are how lengthy the quotations from the speech are. It's not a very sound-bite friendly speech, and the media seem to be acknowledging that with huge experts intead of trying to use just a line or two.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/124122/page/1
Most noteworthy are how lengthy the quotations from the speech are. It's not a very sound-bite friendly speech, and the media seem to be acknowledging that with huge experts intead of trying to use just a line or two.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
eznark said:
Which point was that exactly and who decided where it would be?
Innotech said:
Doesn't the fact that Obama had to make a speech prove that assertion wrong?
eznark: If you really believe that slavery, Jim Crowe, segregation, and discrimination doesn't explain a lot of the problems in American society today, then there really is no hope for you.
XxenobladerxX
Member
Hmm indeed. Maybe you should look up one more time.Innotech said:
eznark said:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that every time some one says that black people may have been held down you get a shit ton of "slavery was centuries ago, get over it" type of responses. Slavery is largely used as an excuse.
Though if you look at Reverend Wrights generation and how hard the had to fight to end segregation, the way it played in the news then, all the black leaders that were either physically assassinated or had their character assassinated, watching two presidents sympathetic to their cause be assassinated you begin to see why one might be angry or disenfranchised. To ignore these facts and say well I didn't live then so it doesn't matter does a horrible disservice to discussion of the issues.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
thekad said:
QFT
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