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Oculus Rift available for preorder for $599.99, shipping in March
- Thread starter War Eagle
- Start date
serversurfer
Member
Sorry, but what do you mean by this? Surely you don't think this actually costs them more than $600 to build? Did they actually say that? =/
Yes, but the Lighthouse beacons scan a wider arc, so they're better at getting in to the corners than the cameras.
They don't seem to be making any money on the headset at all really.
We can objectively reach this conclusion when the teardown occurs.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
How? Most of the headset is custom parts. How would someone be able to appraise value of materials from a breakdown of custom parts? Seems like you'd have to have inside info on their manufacturing process and contracts+materials used to determine such a thing.
For the moment we can also simply listen to the people who built it. Lying to the public about something like that involving a publicly traded company could have legal consequences.
Heh? Luckey could pull the ballpark card again.
People are a little too willing to believe anything the company PR person is putting out.
Please. The GPU powering the Titan X is also custom. Nvidia is selling each at a loss of $599.
Edit: ^^^ Hahaha, great minds think alike and all that jazz.
between sourcing raw materials and manufacturing costs you could get in the 'ballpark' ( lol )
Edit2:
If I were going to do a teardown, I'd consult the current market prices of all the metals, and non-custom components (ICs and sensors, some of which may not be custom). note how much you can't figure out, and you can still get a decent figure. I haven't tried to do a teardown, other than looking at partnumbers and sourcing them for replacements on faulty electronics.
http://www.ttiinc.com/page/marketEYE-supply-chain
between sourcing raw materials and manufacturing costs you could get in the 'ballpark' ( lol )
Edit2:
If I were going to do a teardown, I'd consult the current market prices of all the metals, and non-custom components (ICs and sensors, some of which may not be custom). note how much you can't figure out, and you can still get a decent figure. I haven't tried to do a teardown, other than looking at partnumbers and sourcing them for replacements on faulty electronics.
http://www.ttiinc.com/page/marketEYE-supply-chain
No he couldn't.
I am having a really hard time understanding why people doubt the claim, other than having no idea how electronic devices are designed or made.
Well aware of electronic devices and thanks for the backhand compliment though.
So does anyone have an idea of how many units they had stockpiled for launch?
Given the wait is already out to June that suggests they're still on a pretty specialised manufacturing & assembly process atm, rather than true mass production.
Still, exciting times - sold-put products drive their own 'I must have what everyone else is queuing for!!' momentum.
Given the wait is already out to June that suggests they're still on a pretty specialised manufacturing & assembly process atm, rather than true mass production.
Still, exciting times - sold-put products drive their own 'I must have what everyone else is queuing for!!' momentum.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Well how was that determined exactly?
Yeah I get the feeling Palmer's initial comments on CV1 (prob more than a year ago) that they'd be well stocked and have lots built up prior to release changed. Betting that'll be more of a cv2 or even cv3 situation. Just too expensive and niche right now for them to build a more powerhouse manufacturing line.
I'd seriously question that given your comments.
Questioning Luckey seems to be riling you up pretty good.
It's unlikely they have any ready yet. It's probably similar to the original DK1, but this time they likely have a final design, and are part way through production or ramping up final production.
It's also likely that they only can make so many without ramping beyond the capacity they have already planned (which can cost lots more to bring on more factories / assembly lines especially in a rush order type manner, this can also cause quality degradation, due to training new workers and getting up a whole new production up to speed so to speak.)
This means that at capacity, they've sold out preorders for all the units they can manufacture from now until June, and continue to push out future preorder ship dates in order to meet demand. This is actually a very cool idea, without having to pay extra to ramp up production costs and cause more financial issues to meet demand, yet still providing a supply to market.
Dreamwriter
Member
I dunno if I'd say that, it really depends on how many orders they got. Palmer Luckey tweeted: "Wow, people really want Rifts! There must be a lot of lurkers in the VR community," which means a lot more people ordered them then Oculus expected. Of course, also depends on your definition of "mass" - there are currently only around 4 million people with compatible video cards, so they definitely wouldn't manufacture a ton of the things. We do know they set up the manufacturing line sometime before Oculus Connect in September, because one of the Oculus Connect panels discussed getting the first unit off the line.
Buy a DK2 from eBay, there are plenty there for sale.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Gonna ignore my question huh? Genuinely curious to learn how the value was determined...
You can grab the sdk and view the docs here. I don't think they are releasing version 1.0 of the sdk until launch though.
Your inability or unwillingness to recognize your own ignorance is the issue here. Your response though goes a long way in proving my point. It's also sort of a weird, childish projection where my motivation must be some kind of fanboyism. Maybe it says more than you intended.
GPUs actually aren't that custom other than the gpu chip. Most of the components are stuff you could look up how much they cost, add it all to a spreadsheet, and you can get pretty close. Especially if you can figure out how much the custom chip (size of chip on what nm /wafer ) costs, and even a ballpark here is okay. Because due to knowing all of the sourced parts, you can still figure out the base cost, and fudge a little on the wafer costs. (You can google most of this stuff, it's pretty fascinating stuff imo.)
Edit:
Also to note: You have to look at GPU resellers (EVGA for example), They don't do anything to the dies or wafers, they buy them from the manufacturer (NVIDIA / AMD / INTEL), so there is a market here. And then they are all buying similar parts to build a to spec reference graphics card prototype at least, and then try to refine and add their own flare to it.
Unfortunately we can't use this line of thinking with the current Oculus Rift CV1, but anything that isn't entirely custom you can still get solid numbers for, and anything that is you can mostly figure out.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Thanks man!
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
serversurfer
Member
You mean like every iPhone ever?
Because most of what you're talking about is R&D. Once you've designed something, it's not that hard to stamp out a bunch of them, nor is it particularly difficult to estimate how much that will cost using modern manufacturing techniques.
The companies who do these sorts of teardown have precisely that sort of insight, yes.
Example, the "custom" 3D Touch and Taptic Engine in the 6S costs Apple about ten bucks a unit. Incidentally, an entire 6S Plus costs only $236 to build, and it's way more complicated than these headsets. To be fair, that's in much larger production runs, but I don't think yanking most of the guts out of a smartphone is likely to double your build costs. I'll be very interested to hear what IHS and friends have to say about all of these headsets though.
Lying? What was said, specifically? Did they actually say they're selling it at cost? I know they said they aren't making money on it, but that's not really the same thing. I haven't gone through the AMA yet, but it seemed like Palmer was ignoring any direct questions regarding BOMs or selling at-cost, and instead talked vaguely of corporate subsidies and still being in the red.
Well they've already started handing CV1 out to some devs so they definitely have some ready
They're also devs too, so they're more easily sated if they to have non-complete kits.
It's always good to have a launch date so you have something to aim for, and targets to hit. Plus having leeway in shipping times helps too, in case you run into any manufacturing problems at either production or raw materials.
Dreamwriter
Member
I probably should have just replied rather than editing my other posts:
Edit2:
If I were going to do a teardown, I'd consult the current market prices of all the metals, and non-custom components (ICs and sensors, some of which may not be custom). note how much you can't figure out, and you can still get a decent figure. I haven't tried to do a teardown, other than looking at partnumbers and sourcing them for replacements on faulty electronics.
http://www.ttiinc.com/page/marketEYE-supply-chain
And you can look at other similar products like iPhone production runs, some of those numbers have come out, I don't know very much of the specifics, but you can figure out how much chips cost.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Well thanks for the breakdown, much appreciated! When I saw teardown I thought of pop tech sites like gizmodo just tearing stuff apart more as a "hey look at this shit in pieces" kind of thing, didn't know there were highly specialized sites like that one that broke down cost of individual parts. Out of curiosity did they ever do one for the DK2? Granted I know that isn't that complex but still wondering.
Awesome, thanks for the additional info!
I don't think most components inside an iPhone are custom, in terms of the electronics anyway.
The Rift is going to sell way, way less than any iPhone. Apple sells tens of millions of phones a quarter. The impact this has on cost is immense. But even if we ignore that completely, on a one to one basis the custom, purpose built OLED panels and probably the custom optics in the Rift cost more than any piece of an iPhone.
He said this:
"To reiterate, we are not making money on Rift hardware. High end VR is expensive, but Rift is obscenely cheap for what it is."
That's by definition the same as saying you're selling the Rift at cost.
Ah, I haven't been paying too much attention. I know when we get production runs going we get access to stuff earlier than the market for partners and things, but I'm not too involved in all of that, other than I know it happens.
As for why they'd sit on it: so they can guarantee product at a launch date. Usually in a warehouse before they would ship to retailers -- I now realize this isn't the case as they could start sending them immediately to customers. But we have release dates for lots of reasons: getting the word out, and building an anticipation wave for consumers of a new product, and frankly time to build enough for initial projected demand before said date(s).
Any IP or new technology can be made to cost a certain amount when they are the one who owns or manufactures it. Custom is often a keyword to mask any sort of discussion around the bill of materials.
More insults, you shouldnt throw stones when you are the one projecting.
If my ignorance is because I'm questioning the jump, then that is called being cautious. I'm not affiliated to OR, Facebook or any other organization in this market. I wouldnt trust Luckey or any other PR person out there.
How can you dare question anything?
Really? I could've sworn I read somewhere they've got some stockpiled already. Must've misread!
Thanks for replying & yeah, you're right wrt volume.
InaudibleWhispa
Member
Also something to note: Apple, having higher capacity production runs, they can usually get better costs on parts and/or labor due to establishing a longer run or allowing the factories to have a better projected forecast of production. And I'm guessing here, but I'd figure if you're working with the same people again and again, you're going to come to a better understanding of needs and be able to anticipate possible problems.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
I take it you work in manufacturing? Unless I'm misreading things...
uh, okay. Probably just /s, but I've been trying to contribute information to the thread, if you don't want people to contribute to threads then, okay.
I've become familiar with product production cycles...
I don't work directly in manufacturing but I work where it impacts things I work on.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Palmer def said at one point they'd stockpile the CV1 release, it'd be available in stores etc. The latter being plentiful stock from the wording. Things probably changed, as more than one thing has
Palmer def said at one point they'd stockpile the CV1 release, it'd be available in stores etc. The latter being plentiful stock from the wording. Things probably changed, as more than one thing has
Ah! Okay, again I haven't really been paying too close attention to the CV1 or past Oculus stuff.
Sorry kyser73, I seriously thought you were being snarky.
It also makes more sense that he's surprised at the demand of the preorders that they under projected actual demand.
I originally was going to get a DK1, but decided I'd wait for a higher resolution version, as I'm super picky when it comes to resolution. I'm very interested in presence and have yet to try any Rift or headset device, but have followed Carmack and Abrash very closely through lots of the AR/VR talks they've done.
In the video from CES they actually mention having many units produced already as they opened preorders.
wish they would ship them already
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
They also may not have server infrastructure in place, or the final firmware nailed down. There are still plenty possible of reasons they have projected a launch date in March. Including shipping from one central warehouse to more local warehouses for country or region.
wanderingprostheyltite
Member
Yeah, I've been tempted, and had opportunity! A couple coworkers have DK1s and another has a gear VR. I've seen people play with them, but have yet to try them myself.