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[Mama Smurf]

Ben Haim should have been sent off, that was a yellow card when he delibrately blocked Johnson's run with no attempt to get the ball.

 

[jamesinclair]

Isreal is dominating

Spoiler

in the luck factor

 

[Socreges]

I was going to go to the Canada-Scotland U21 match today in Vancouver, but they f'ing moved the field and the time because of rain conditions, and now I can't go. They have to build that new stadium and soon.

 

[jamesinclair]

I was going to go to the Canada-Scotland U21 match today in Vancouver, but they f'ing moved the field and the time because of rain conditions, and now I can't go. They have to build that new stadium and soon.

I thought Vancuver had a domed stadium?

 

[jamesinclair]

What a hilarious (offside) goal. The english player just sort of bounced it off the goalkeeper.


Also, Isreal doesnt do badly when they attack, its just that theyre using the 1-9-1 formation


Edit: That was a reference to offside goal one, not two

 

[Mama Smurf]

Can't believe we didn't win that game. So dominant, so many chances...god I miss Owen.

Now I think I've made it clear I'm no McClaren sympathizer, but I hope the papers aren't too hard on him tomorrow. Some sections of the media will only see a scoreline, but that was a good performance with no finish. And there's nothing the manager can do about finishing.

EDIT: And I'm still annoyed Ben Haim stayed on the pitch with 30 minutes (or whatever it was) to go.

And, having just glanced at the BBC written commentary, they're morons. "another shockingly dreadful display"? Oh I'm sorry, were we too dominant? Did we give away too few chances?

 

[Blablurn]

GERMANY!!!!

 

[Ronok]

Mama, what you're saying is going against what everyone I know is saying. lol It's also going against what everyone at the match was saying..... No way is the media going to let go of this one. lol



Going back to the Arsenal stuff, Hleb in particular, I really don't understand how people can be saying he isn't good enough etc.... At first I didn't really like his style as he cut in way to much but after awhile he started getting used to the way Arsenal play and up until his injury he was easilly one of our best players..... Recently he hasn't been so good, but, that can be said about everyone to some extent. :-/

 

[Mama Smurf]

Mama, what you're saying is going against what everyone I know is saying. lol It's also going against what everyone at the match was saying..... No way is the media going to let go of this one. lol

I don't understand what match you were watching then. Were we not dominant, both in terms of possession and chances? Did we not defend so well that they got...what...3 chaces all game? And maybe only one of those was decent? Apart from finishing, what more do people want?

I get the feeling people think we should be mowing Israel down. Israel are a good side, they didn't lose in their entire World Cup qualifying group. They came joint second with Switzerland and only two points behind France, a point ahead of Ireland, they almsot made the finals.

More than that, these are the stats of the chances of different results:

England 51%
Draw 25%
Israel 24%

Basically there was just as much chance of England not winning as there was of winning.

So it's clear Israel are a good side, particularly at home. So to completely outplay them is a good performance.

I mean, they did defend the entire game, rarely leaving men beyond the ball. That's not easy, for any side. Remember when Arsenal drew at home in the cup to Blackburn, and we just defended the entire time? Arsenal are a way more attractive team to watch than England even when both are at their best, plus they were at home and they crated far fewer chances than England did tonight. And the odds in that match were much better:

Arsenal 61%
Draw 24%
Blackburn 15%

So you know, even the best sides around with better odds can find it hard in that situation.

Apart from finishing, which I've said all along was the flaw, I honestly don't know what more you could have wanted England to do tonight. Please someone tell me, aside from finishing why are people so annoyed? Is it just that they don't realise how strong Israel are, or didn't notice how we were up against a 10 man defence the whole game?

On the performance I felt we deserved to win the game by 2 or 3.

 

[Zapages]

Turkey is demolishing Greece right now!!! 4-1!!!!

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Goan the Scots!

Sweet, sweet result for Scotland today. 12 points, top of the group - who'd have thunk it.

Makes the game against Italy in Bari on Wednesday very interesting - Italians not really been known to go all out for the win; they need a win.

Watched the Englan Israel game as well, and thought that while England bossed most of the game, Israel actually looked better going forward. England looked toothless in th final third.

It's quite crazy, I'd love to get the Home Nations back on again; I think any of Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland would fancy their chances against the current England side.

That in itself should be scary, because on paper the only person in the Scotland squad that has ahope of getting into the England team is Craig Gordon :lol Although give him a few years and I guarantee that Kris Boyd will be palyind for a top-side - he's got the potential to be the best penalty box striker since Ian Rush INMHO.

Once more, with feeling

GOAN THE SCOTS!!!

 

[Socreges]

I thought Vancuver had a domed stadium?

Right, BC Place. They weren't using it for whatever reason. Maybe because the game would have a terrible atmosphere given its capacity (60k?) and attendance for the game (much, much less).

 

[Remedy]

Yeah Turkey's B team pretty much destroyed Greece in Athens.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I went to see an American Football game in BC Place once. It was one of the worst experiences of my life.

How did Israel look more dangerous going forwards? Even on the very few occasions when they got near our box, it came to nothing. Was there anything on target, or even that close to on target? There was a header in the first half that the guy should have done better on, but he didn't. There was a guy who turned on the edge of the box after Benayoun put him in and put it well wide.

England had a number of shots on target, runs on goal, headers put wide as well as on target, quite a few rubbish shots...we were much more dangerous on the attack.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Moving away from England for a second, I just read an article on the ridiculous idea to have peanlty shoot outs after draws. The latest idea is that both teams would get a point, but there'd be an extra point for the penalty shoot out winner.

Now, given that penalties are about a 50/50 chance (even more even chance if they're that common and not as crucial, so less pressure), that would generally mean on average a draw would be worth 1.5 points. 3 points for a win, 1.5 points for a draw. In other words, just back to the old style of 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw! Which we changed in the first place to encourage teams to try and win games.

Yey for stupid ideas!

 

[gollumsluvslave]

Was there anything on target, or even that close to on target?

Ok, I meant that Israel were much more direct when they picked the ball up in the final third. I think that England belabour things too much.

That said, how many shot's on target or clear cut opportunities did England have either? Hence my description of tootheless - they didn't really *look* like scoring, even if there had been another 30 minutes.

Apart from Lampard's shot that Rooney almost latched onto, the only things I can think of would be the offsides, which aren't chances...

 

[Ghost]

Well penalties arent even close to 50/50, this rule would make that abundantly clear if it ever happened, hell maybe England would actually manage to win a penalty shoot out if they had to take them every week.


Still a dumb ass idea though.

Ok, I meant that Israel were much more direct when they picked the ball up in the final third. I think that England belabour things too much.

That said, how many shot's on target or clear cut opportunities did England have either? Hence my description of tootheless - they didn't really *look* like scoring, even if there had been another 30 minutes.

Apart from Lampard's shot that Rooney almost latched onto, the only things I can think of would be the offsides, which aren't chances...

England couldnt be direct, every time they had the ball Israel had ten men behind it, same reason we failed to beat Macedonia. By bossing possession we left ourselves with no option but to try and play around the defence, which is something we're not used to and not very good at.

 

[Mama Smurf]

They had to be direct, they were playing on the counterattack. All they could do is get the ball and run to the other end. You can't just go directly against a team with 10 defenders, we put the ball in constantly, we were as direct as possible.

I'm not sure how many shots on target. Quite a few headers, Lampard's chance in the first half, Lampard's volley, I suspect quite a few of the shots from outside the box were on target but blocked before they got there, Defoe's chance from two yards out...and I'd say two of those were those rare chances where you're more likely to score than not...we just didn't. Defoe's and Lampard's being the two.

I agree we're not sharp enough with our striking though, but I knew it'd be like that before the game. I thought everyone did, Rooney's not a big goalscorer and without Owen our strikers drop sharply in quality.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Well penalties arent even close to 50/50, this rule would make that abundantly clear if it ever happened, hell maybe England would actually manage to win a penalty shoot out if they had to take them every week.

They are, on average. You just get really bad teams...England, Holland...and really good teams, like Germany. Most teams are a mix and the extremes cancel each other out.

And like we've both said, if taken regularly, as they would be with draws, there'd be a lot more practice and a lot less pressure. Not only because it'd be a normal thing, but it's not the difference between going out of a competition or continuing on.

 

[Mama Smurf]

Croatia scored a late goal to beat Macedonia, unfortunately. And it looks like Russia beat Estonia easily enough. So the current table looks like this:

1 Croatia____5__11_13
2 Russia_____5__6__11
3 England____5__4__8
4 Israel______5__3__8
5 Macedonia__6__0__7
6 Estonia_____4_-6__0
7 Andorra____4_-18_0

Games, goal difference, points.

I still expect England to qualify, though we are doing it the hard way. Luckily the top 2 automatically go through in this format, so that makes it easier.

We've got two games against Estonia and one against Andorra, and if we don't win all 3 of them then we don't deserve to go through. We certainly should do, so that should be 9 points. Croatia have the same, but Russia have only got two games left against Andorra, they've played their Estonia games, so they only have 6 "guaranteed" points left.

Then we have Israel, Croatia and Russia at home, plus Russia away. We're much better at home, though hardly perfect *glares at Macedonia result*, and I'm sure we can get enough points from those games to at least get second.

Oh yeah, and if we all cross our fingers and toes and balls, Owen won't get injured again and will be available for all the remaining games except Andorra this Wednesday. Joe Cole too.

*waits for Rooney and Hargreaves to get injured*

 

[Tim the Wiz]

Wow, can't believe I wasted two hours of my life watching that game. England really need to drop Lampard (a few games on the bench really would be good for him imo), give Lennon his natural position down the right (give Downing/Bentley his position on the right), and Gerrard/Hargreaves the creative space in the midfield. Johnson and Rooney's co-ordination and passing were abysmal to be honest, and it's a sign that something really needs to change to better the chemistry of the side. Prediction: I think England will come out with the second spot in the group, hope they don't make a mess of the qualifying from there.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

4 - 1 victory in undoubtly the most difficult away setting possible for us....4 out of 4, means we can seal the qualification against Norway this wendsday.

hehe the "this is SPARTAAA" spirit didn't really help the Greeks today, on the otherhand they always kinda sucked battling things out with us thru out history

Spoiler

sorry neighbours, couldn't resist.....I am sure you guys would have done the same, if the reversed happened...so no hard feelings

 

[kaizoku]

England need Carrick. NFT.

Segment from Daily Mail on Chelsea's lack of dignity:

A celebration stripped of taste and dignity

That splendid satirist Dennis Pennis once asked the actress Demi Moore: ‘Would you ever consider keeping your clothes on if the script demanded it?’

The same kind of question might have been addressed to the Chelsea players Frank Lampard, John Terry and Didier Drogba on an extremely cold evening in north London.

Their immediate reaction upon winning an FA Cup replay at Tottenham was to tear off their shirts, beat their chests and generally incite the locals with a display of shabbily choreographed triumphalism. Not so much a sports team, more a bunch of City traders celebrating their annual bonuses.

Naturally, this in no way excuses that foolish fellow who invaded the field to remonstrate with the shirtless ones. After all, nobody wants to see football pitches awash with petulant clowns throwing peevish punches, even when they happen to be fans rather than footballers.

And Chelsea are not the only side guilty of this arrogant posturing, merely the most obviously irritating.

Indeed, they are so obviously, so crassly irritating that I wondered if somebody in authority at Stamford Bridge — the owner, the chief executive, the outgoing manager — might murmur a pointed lesson about the virtues of taste and dignity. Then I remembered that the people in question are, respectively,Roman Abramovich, Peter Kenyon and Jose Mourinho.

So Lampard, Terry, Drogba and the rest will continue to behave with all the discreet class of hen-night strippers.

And taste and dignity will not raise their voices.

 

[Ronok]

Mama, I personally didn't see the game as at the moment I've got no means to (well I could have watched it online, but, nothing was connecting) so I ended up just listening to the commentry.... From the sounds of things England were really quite bad, this has been said to me by friends who could watch, commentators (BBC), my brother and of course those who went to see the game themself...........

McClarren will also from the sounds of things get stick for not taking off Lampard and Rooney when they were having poor matches.....

This is all I meant from my previous post.

 

[Lakitu]

Transfer news of the day:

United line up £15m Deco deal

Manchester United reportedly want to pair Barcelona star Deco with Cristiano Ronaldo at Old Trafford so are lining up a £15million summer bid.

Catalan giants Barca are planning to overhaul their squad at the end of this season and according to reports, Sir Alex Ferguson is planning to sign the unsettled Portuguese playmaker.

Deco has already hinted he wants a fresh challenge after three years at the Nou Camp and it is thought that bringing him to Old Trafford would help ensure Ronaldo pens a new contract with the Red Devils.

Although Ronaldo's new deal is expected to be five years, there are still disputes over the pay with the player holding out for more than £100,000 per week.

Gunners keep eye on Klose talks

Arsenal are monitoring Miroslav Klose's contract talks with Werder Bremen - and will make a £5million summer move if they break down.

The prolific Germany striker has so far failed to thrash out a new long-term deal with the Bundesliga outfit - and will be sold in the summer transfer window if he does not put pen to paper.

German giants Bayern Munich have been hovering around Klose for some time - but Bremen would rather sell the striker to an English club than a fierce rival.

Gunners boss Arsene Wenger has been a long-time admirer of Klose, who is under contract with Bremen until 2008, and a transfer fee of £5million is well within his budget at the Emirates Stadium.

Wenger would face stiff competition for the hitman's signature, though, as London rivals Tottenham and Manchester United are also believed to be monitoring his situation.

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

hehe the "this is SPARTAAA" spirit didn't really help the Greeks today, on the otherhand they always kinda sucked battling things out with us thru out history sorry neighbours, couldn't resist.....I am sure you guys would have done the same, if the reversed happened...so no hard feelings

Yesterday was Minor Asia all over again
I hope the team comes to their senses really soon, that was an embarassing performance..
Nice goals though...
And no, we didnt suck, as Leonidas said in Hollywood, we were always "few standing against many"

 

[hadareud]

Transfer news of the day:
Gunners keep eye on Klose talks

I don't really want him. Overrated. And German.

Spoiler

j/k. although I never really liked him personally he's always good for quite a few goals. He would be a good backup

 

[Shinobi]

Klose at 5 mill sounds like a perfect Wenger buy. Sounds like he's just what we need as well...someone who can put his head on the ball and finish inside the box. If that deal could go through they'd still have 15 mill or so (if the 20 mill rumoured warchest is accurate) to grab a good young keeper, an experienced defender and a natural winger.

Going back to the Arsenal stuff, Hleb in particular, I really don't understand how people can be saying he isn't good enough etc.... At first I didn't really like his style as he cut in way to much but after awhile he started getting used to the way Arsenal play and up until his injury he was easilly one of our best players..... Recently he hasn't been so good, but, that can be said about everyone to some extent. :-/

Agreed...my only problem is his seeming refusal to shoot on net, preferring to dribble it into three guys and losing possession. But hell, that complaint could be made for half the team right now. :lol In the first half of the year he had the right balance of dribble penetration, drawing defenders in and finding players in open space. Right now he's struggling with that, but I don't think he's lost the plot for good or anything. It's just a team wide problem, finding the net.

Our current struggles is making one thing clear...this idiotic idea that we don't need Henry is looking more and more foolish by the day. Few players on the planet can provide a magic moment from a dull performance. And he's rarely lacking for confidence, something that I think has affected the squad.

In some ways the international break couldn't have come at a better time...getting away and playing with their respective national teams will probably do the players some good. Couldn't hurt anyway, unless someone goes down injured.

Moving away from England for a second, I just read an article on the ridiculous idea to have peanlty shoot outs after draws. The latest idea is that both teams would get a point, but there'd be an extra point for the penalty shoot out winner.

Now, given that penalties are about a 50/50 chance (even more even chance if they're that common and not as crucial, so less pressure), that would generally mean on average a draw would be worth 1.5 points. 3 points for a win, 1.5 points for a draw. In other words, just back to the old style of 2 points for a win and 1 point for a draw! Which we changed in the first place to encourage teams to try and win games.

Yey for stupid ideas!

Basically what we see in the NHL these days...except you only get two points for a win, which means there's a boat load of teams seperated by like, 10 points. This gives the illusion of parity and exciting viewing, when it's really just a way for medicore teams to put points in the bank by playing for overtime/shootout.

I agree we're not sharp enough with our striking though, but I knew it'd be like that before the game. I thought everyone did, Rooney's not a big goalscorer and without Owen our strikers drop sharply in quality.

This is what always cracks me up about the English fanbase and the English media. They predict doom and gloom...then when the result is anything less than a win they claim it's a calamity, even if the balance of play showed otherwise.

I thought England were fantastic in the first half...really used the space well, had some terrific build up play in the center of the park, and Lennon was simply unstoppable on the left, though the lack of a left foot compromised his advantage. In the second half Israel played further back and restricted that space, and forced England into the long ball since quite frankly, they've barely got the talent to do anything else.

That's the other problem with the fanbase and the media...they've been overrating the talent on this team for far too long. We're not a top eight side regardless of what the idiot FIFA rankings suggest. There's precious little creativity and pace in the middle of the park. The Lampard/Gerrard experiment continues to confound. Rooney's fast turning into the next Ian Wright. BTW, how the **** did he stay on the entire game while Andy Johnson got lifted for Dafoe? AJ didn't have a lot of scoring chances but he was far more active in chasing the ball down. Rooney meanwhile was barely visible throughout the game. Downing for Lennon was even more baffling...take Lampard's fat ass off, stick Gerrard in the center, and put Lennon on the right. I'm hardly a tatician and even I could figure this one out.

Anyway, Israel is hardly a push over team like Mama said, and I figured England would feel fortunate to sneak a win. They played frankly better than I thought in the first half, and about what I expected in the second. The only thing that really pissed me off were the substitution calls, they just made no sense whatsoever to me. As for England's lack of clinical finish, I'm used to that after seeing Arsenal for the past month. :lol

England had better win on Wednesday though, or they are ****ed.

 

[Mama Smurf]

I thought Lampard played well, England's most dangerous player. Again, finishing let him down, but he got in the positions even our forwards couldn't for some reason.

Unless we're playing against incredibly weak sides, like Andorra or Jamaica, England are just better against top sides. I mean, look at the World Cup. Pretty crap against Paraguay, Equador and T&T (though good enough to win), yet pretty good against Sweden and Portugal.

I think the reason is clear. We just don't have the players to break down teams who put so many men behind the ball. I'm not complaining about it, it's often the smart thing to do (though I don't see how Israel can hope to qualify after only getting a point, but I guess on the balance of play they'll be happy with it), but we just can't seem to find a way through.

Two things can generally break down sides like that...killer pace that no one can handle (like Ronaldo) and big guys in the box we can continually swing the ball into and bypass 5 or 6 of those defenders. We have pace, particularly Lennon, but Lennon isn't generally pace followed by scoring, he's pace followed by a cross...which again needs those big men. And we have big men too...just not high quality big men.

When I think back over the best games I've seen England play in recent times, they all come in games where the opposition are as willing to attack us as we are to attack them. Unfortunately, there are only about 20 teams in the world willing to do that.

Oh well, we can only move onto the next game and hope we can keep our best players fit and somehow develop a quality tall forward within the next few months.

United sure are being linked to a lot of people. Don't even know which ones to believe anymore, except for Hargreaves, they apparently want a left back, right back, defensive central midfielder, creative central midfielder, winger and forward. Oh, and all top quality, which would cost them over £100m.

They're linked with Micah Richards today as well as Deco, which at least makes more sense than Bale. Gary Neville's been great, but I would say he's got two more years left in him at the most. I think Brown would be a decent replacement, but if that happened then United would have to buy at centre back to replace Brown who normally covers there. So they might as well leave him where he is and buy a good right back, when one becomes available.

Wouldn't say it's a priority though.

 

[kaizoku]

after years of "training I've kinda developed a skill for spotting genuine man utd transfer gossip and lies. Even when its genuine though you dont want to look into it as anything can go wrong - Mikel and ronaldinho for example. I dont put much stock in the Gudjohnson, Deco, Huntelaar, Micah Richards (haha) rumours.

Bale, Hargreaves, Torres are the only rumours worth noting right now. Though its an outside chance we turn to Huntelaar/Sneijder of Ajax if things fall through.

The top English teams have to break down tough defences every week, they should be able to do it. The problem is there is no team when England play, there is simply 11 guys running around showing off their lion hearts or whatever.

Rooney is not the next Ian Wright - wtf? He's been England's outstanding performer at tournaments in the past (WC not included) he's just having a bad season.

Thing with Lampard is he's not going to break down the defences with a clever through ball, he's not going to help our forwards or entire attacking formation because his entire game is built around getting near the box and shooting as often as possible. That may help the scoreline and himself now and then, but when its 0-0 and you're struggling you dont want to rely on his luck. You want to rely on your strength as a unit.

England need a clever passer, they need rhythm to their game, organisation, some sense of purpose and direction. They need guys who can play good football.

Beckham/Lennon - Carrick - Hargreaves - Gerrard

--------------Rooney - whoever


Stop being stupid Mclaren. Lennon is a good sub, as is Wright Philips, but Lennon doesn't have the end product, he doesnt suit the England team. Same for Lampard, these guys are disrupting the flow with their own style which doesnt match the rest of the team. Does anyone ever feel a glimmer of hope when Lennon gets into a crossing position? You might not understand the reasons for me wanting to ditch the player who looked most like scoring - but its similar to why I wanted to get rid of Ruud at Utd.

Arsenal and Man Utd break down tough defences every week and they do it by playing good football as a team.

 

[psycho_snake]

United sure are being linked to a lot of people. Don't even know which ones to believe anymore, except for Hargreaves, they apparently want a left back, right back, defensive central midfielder, creative central midfielder, winger and forward. Oh, and all top quality, which would cost them over £100m.

They're linked with Micah Richards today as well as Deco, which at least makes more sense than Bale. Gary Neville's been great, but I would say he's got two more years left in him at the most. I think Brown would be a decent replacement, but if that happened then United would have to buy at centre back to replace Brown who normally covers there. So they might as well leave him where he is and buy a good right back, when one becomes available.

Wouldn't say it's a priority though.

Sometimes Im convinced that the reporters just pick a name and a club out of a hat and writr an article about how the club is interested in the player.

I think United need to get a right back, a winger, a central midfielder and a striker, although i doubt we can afford to buy quality players for 4 different positions. I think we can wait until next summer for a right back. Gary Neville is getting old, but I reckon he's got what it takes to carry on playing for another year, with brown filling in from time to time. Micah richards would be a great buy, but how much would he cost? There have been some ridiculous figures being thrown around. If we can get him for a relatively cheap price; something lower than 10 million pounds, then maybe its worth investing, but a right back can wait.

We definately need a striker. Saha and rooney are good enough. Solskjaer is getting old and he's going to be making even less appearances. Smith could make a comeback if he gets a good pre season, but he isnt the quality that we need. Gudjohnsen has been linked with us and Id be happy to see him at OT. i was thinking about the possability of tevez coming to United. He's been playing weel over the last few games and I reckon that at a big club such as united he could improve a lot. He's shown good potential and he's young, so he could be a good buy, but it depends how mcuh we can get him for.

Hargreaves looks like a certainty. Unfortunately it looks like Bayern wont sell him for cheap price. If we are luck we might be able to get him for 15 million pounds, but Im sure bayern will try to get an extra few pounds out of selling him. Deco has been linked, but Im sure thats just pure speculation.

We need a winger to replace giggs. Park is decent, but he's more of a squad player. Richardson and fletcher are out of the question. Richardson is shit and although fletcher can be good, he's far too inconsistant. nani has been linked. Again price is the problem. It was reported thatr sporting would sell him for 14 million pounds.

So here are the players who I think we can get.

hargreaves - 17 million
gudjohnsen - 8 million
tevez - 12 million
nani - 14 million
richards - ?

If we buy hargreaves, nani and one of the strikers, its going to cost around 39 - 43 million. Its a lot of money and Im not asure what the board plan to give us. They said that they would back us up, but 40 million a lot of money to be spent.

 

[Mama Smurf]

You know, Sven must be laughing his ass off, and I hope he is. I don't think he was the right man for England (by the time he left anyway), but all these people who claimed all we lacked was a passionate coach and that could only come from and Englishman must be feeling like absolute fools right now.

Say what you like about him, but he always got us qualifying well. He took over towards the beginning of a campaign, Kevin Keegan having quit, with England only having 1 point from two games after losing to Germany and drawing with Finland. Sven not only took us through to the World Cup that time, he amanged to get us to the top of the table ahead of Germany (5-1...best game ever). Won 5, drew 1 and lost 0 under him in that race.

Euro 2004 qualification again had us top of the table, and quite comfortably. 6 wins, 2 draws, 0 losses.

We actually had that really bad loss to N. Ireland in the WC 2006 qualifying, but apart from that it was again smooth sailing. 8 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss...coasting through.

So his record in qualifying was 19 wins, 4 draws, 1 loss. McClaren already has that loss down and is halfway to the draw total...and we've only played 5 games!

I can hardly judge McClaren on his finals performance, I may never be able to judge him if he doesn't survive this qualifying campaign, but Sven did pretty wel there too. Quarter-finals everytime, twice going out on penalties, once to the eventual champions.

I can't remember if anyone here argued the no passion thing, but a lot of fans and pundits and the media did...and I imagine England will win the World Cup again before any of them admit they were wrong.

 

[Mama Smurf]

The top English teams have to break down tough defences every week, they should be able to do it. The problem is there is no team when England play, there is simply 11 guys running around showing off their lion hearts or whatever.

Arsenal and Man Utd break down tough defences every week and they do it by playing good football as a team.

Most Premiership teams will attack against United, though not Arsenal. Certainly more so than Israel did yesterday.

And they don't break through every week, you can ask Arsenal fans about that one. England break through eventually almost every time, we do beat most of those teams with their backs to the wall, we beat all of them doing it in the World Cup. It's very similar to Arsenal in fact, occasionally we won't like against Blackburn or Israel, but most of the time we will even if it's not as pretty as when teams attack us.

Thing with Lampard is he's not going to break down the defences with a clever through ball, he's not going to help our forwards or entire attacking formation because his entire game is built around getting near the box and shooting as often as possible. That may help the scoreline and himself now and then, but when its 0-0 and you're struggling you dont want to rely on his luck. You want to rely on your strength as a unit.

There's no one to pass the clever ball through to, judging on our strikers yesterday. There was no movement at all from Rooney, there was some movement from Johnson but that was almost always going out to the wing rather thn somewhere dangerous...you can't play clever passes without clever runs or movement.

England need a clever passer, they need rhythm to their game, organisation, some sense of purpose and direction. They need guys who can play good football.

I still think we need the sort of players I described before when teams put so many men behind the ball. A clever passer won't do it, Arsenal are shut out by teams doing that and they have far better passers than any England team we could put out. The teams who break down the ultra defensive best either have powerful, big attackers (like Chelsea with Drogba) or fantastic pace down the wings (like United with Ronaldo). It's almost impossible to pass balls through 11 men.

Stop being stupid Mclaren. Lennon is a good sub, as is Wright Philips, but Lennon doesn't have the end product, he doesnt suit the England team. Same for Lampard, these guys are disrupting the flow with their own style which doesnt match the rest of the team. Does anyone ever feel a glimmer of hope when Lennon gets into a crossing position?

Yes...when he's playing on the right. When he's on the right he can go direct, into the box, and play low crosses in or pull backs. He doesn't need to put high crosses in which we don't have the players for. When he's on the left, he not only has to slow down but he has to either come inside and shoot, not his strong point, or come inside and play a ball in the air, not our attackers strong point.

You might not understand the reasons for me wanting to ditch the player who looked most like scoring - but its similar to why I wanted to get rid of Ruud at Utd.

Well I thought you were right to get rid of Ruud too...I just don't with Lampard. I feel the forwards are miles more to blame than the midfielders.

 

[Shinobi]

Rooney is not the next Ian Wright - wtf? He's been England's outstanding performer at tournaments in the past (WC not included) he's just having a bad season.

Rooney hasn't done ****ing SHIT for England since Euro 2004. Since that tourney he's scored one goal in a friendly against Holland. That's three ****ing years. Hell, he hasn't done much for Man U in the Champions League since the hatrick in his debut...again, three years. The facts don't lie, even if fanboys do.

Besides, I never said Rooney IS the next Ian Wright...I said he's turning into Ian Wright. If Rooney scores more than once every twelve games, I'll gladly back off that statement. Until then no one can tell me shit.

You know, Sven must be laughing his ass off, and I hope he is. I don't think he was the right man for England (by the time he left anyway), but all these people who claimed all we lacked was a passionate coach and that could only come from and Englishman must be feeling like absolute fools right now.

Say what you like about him, but he always got us qualifying well. He took over towards the beginning of a campaign, Kevin Keegan having quit, with England only having 1 point from two games after losing to Germany and drawing with Finland. Sven not only took us through to the World Cup that time, he amanged to get us to the top of the table ahead of Germany (5-1...best game ever). Won 5, drew 1 and lost 0 under him in that race.

Euro 2004 qualification again had us top of the table, and quite comfortably. 6 wins, 2 draws, 0 losses.

We actually had that really bad loss to N. Ireland in the WC 2006 qualifying, but apart from that it was again smooth sailing. 8 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss...coasting through.

So his record in qualifying was 19 wins, 4 draws, 1 loss. McClaren already has that loss down and is halfway to the draw total...and we've only played 5 games!

I can hardly judge McClaren on his finals performance, I may never be able to judge him if he doesn't survive this qualifying campaign, but Sven did pretty wel there too. Quarter-finals everytime, twice going out on penalties, once to the eventual champions.

I can't remember if anyone here argued the no passion thing, but a lot of fans and pundits and the media did...and I imagine England will win the World Cup again before any of them admit they were wrong.

Quoted for truth.

The same people who insisted that Sven needed to go because he was some passionless foreigner, were the same dipshits who come up with the silly excuse that too many foreign players in the Premiership is curtailng the development of English talent...conveniently forgetting that when the EPL was born, it had just eight foreign players, and saw England managing to not even qualify for the '94 World Cup (I never get tired of raising this point, it's the ultimate debate killer).

The way Sven and Beckham were basically made sacrificial lambs simply made me sick. It'd be sweet justice if England did another '94...but I'm sure it'd be blamed on Arsene Wenger's transfer policies, resulting in a charge from the FA.

 

[Ghost]

Next Ian Wright is a bit harsh, he never performed for England. I dont think Rooneys problem is form and its definitely not quality, he's just the main victim of Englands negligable level of tactical knowledge. We play so high up the pitch against teams like Israel that Rooney gets no space to work, it's not helped by the fact that we have no width whatsoever because even when we play a winger we play him on the wrong side of the ****ing pitch.

Svens approach was never quite right either, dispite the results we got no one wants to see England play for 1-0 every match, and they did play for it not just settle. But compared to Maclaren he looks like a tactical dyanmo.

 

[Mama Smurf]

It's not like we tried to play that high up against Israel, they wouldn't come out when we had the ball. We tried passing it around at the back during the first half and Israel said "ok, you just do that and we'll stay here".

If Rooney doesn't get room, he gets frustrated. Some players actually do better when fired up...not Rooney. He's liable to get sent off and even when he stays on the pitch he starts making poor decisions. He seems to get a "mark me out of the game will you, I'll show you" attitude and he makes bad choices, always trying to score when he could slip people through, tries to go on difficult runs when there's a good pass on etc.

 

[kaizoku]

Dont blame Mclaren so much, he is trying to repair the damage Sven has done and tbh I always knew it would turn out like this, you can't just turn it around imo. A manager isn't suddenly goig to make these guys passionate and passion isnt the problem, they're just lost on the pitch.

Mama Smurf - this was your England team before the game:

-------------------------Foster---------------------

G Neville----Ferdinand-------Terry-------A Cole

Lennon-------Lampard----Hargreaves----J Cole

----------------Rooney--------Owen--------------

I dont think thats awfully different from what was played - sub Cole for Gerrard and you still have a disjointed dysfunctional team of individuals.

If there is no movement its because theres no space to move into. Thats where the clever bit comes in. Teams dont attack at Old Trafford if they can help it, they are more interested in defending against Utd than they are Arsenal imo. The difference is how the teams approach the problem.

Arsenal only have one plan and thats to pass it around the box until you find the killer pass. They play with pace and fluidity so that works for them usually.

Utd score all kinds of goals. Vs boro you saw Rooney blow a hat trick of balls through the middle - he made plenty of runs then. But when you're a striker and you have a midfield of Lennon, Lampard, Hargreaves, Gerrad/Cole - where do you suggest they run? The advantage of someone like Carrick is he plays from deep and if you hold the ball deep you attract the opposition forwards. Carrick allows his team mates to play better.

With Rooney then allowed to drop deep to get the ball and the other forward making wide/forward runs, you then have the ingredients to start stretching defences and the weapons to do some damage.

With Lennon's pace down the wings you can really start to see a game plan developing.

However with Lampard, what he does is push forward into the box at every opportunity, this reduces Rooney's options, he has to adopt different positions, it forces the opposition team into their own box, and gives them less to worry about - also clutters up the space available. They never have to worry about the ball over the top. This reduces the impact wingers can have as well, they'll be running into dead ends or crossing into a huge crowd.

You want a fluid team where the ball is moving back and forth, left and right and the players are able to interchange. Thats how you stretch a team.

and for counter attacks, Lampard isn't much help as he's not the fastest or best dribbler and he's not gonna release the ball quick enough. Someone like Carrick has the vision to spot and deliver that pass.

Carrick suits players like Rooney, you have to choose whether you want to build the team around Rooney or Lampard.

Tactically England are a shambles and the only solution you have is to put on Peter Crouch from the sounds of it. Might well yield results but I'd rather try and play good football AND get results.

 

[kaizoku]

It's not like we tried to play that high up against Israel, they wouldn't come out when we had the ball. We tried passing it around at the back during the first half and Israel said "ok, you just do that and we'll stay here".

If Rooney doesn't get room, he gets frustrated. Some players actually do better when fired up...not Rooney. He's liable to get sent off and even when he stays on the pitch he starts making poor decisions. He seems to get a "mark me out of the game will you, I'll show you" attitude and he makes bad choices, always trying to score when he could slip people through, tries to go on difficult runs when there's a good pass on etc.

what? Rooney plays best when he is angry, he's having a bad season because he's been so docile. he has to find the balance and not explode, but some of his best football has been produced when he's been pissed off at something - for example his best ever goal vs Newcastle. I think he's had anger management classes which may explain his timid season.

England have been poor for a long time so its not right to just blame it on a 100% defensive israeli team.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Sometimes Im convinced that the reporters just pick a name and a club out of a hat and writr an article about how the club is interested in the player.

I think United need to get a right back, a winger, a central midfielder and a striker, although i doubt we can afford to buy quality players for 4 different positions. I think we can wait until next summer for a right back. Gary Neville is getting old, but I reckon he's got what it takes to carry on playing for another year, with brown filling in from time to time. Micah richards would be a great buy, but how much would he cost? There have been some ridiculous figures being thrown around. If we can get him for a relatively cheap price; something lower than 10 million pounds, then maybe its worth investing, but a right back can wait.

We definately need a striker. Saha and rooney are good enough. Solskjaer is getting old and he's going to be making even less appearances. Smith could make a comeback if he gets a good pre season, but he isnt the quality that we need. Gudjohnsen has been linked with us and Id be happy to see him at OT. i was thinking about the possability of tevez coming to United. He's been playing weel over the last few games and I reckon that at a big club such as united he could improve a lot. He's shown good potential and he's young, so he could be a good buy, but it depends how mcuh we can get him for.

Hargreaves looks like a certainty. Unfortunately it looks like Bayern wont sell him for cheap price. If we are luck we might be able to get him for 15 million pounds, but Im sure bayern will try to get an extra few pounds out of selling him. Deco has been linked, but Im sure thats just pure speculation.

We need a winger to replace giggs. Park is decent, but he's more of a squad player. Richardson and fletcher are out of the question. Richardson is shit and although fletcher can be good, he's far too inconsistant. nani has been linked. Again price is the problem. It was reported thatr sporting would sell him for 14 million pounds.

So here are the players who I think we can get.

hargreaves - 17 million
gudjohnsen - 8 million
tevez - 12 million
nani - 14 million
richards - ?

If we buy hargreaves, nani and one of the strikers, its going to cost around 39 - 43 million. Its a lot of money and Im not asure what the board plan to give us. They said that they would back us up, but 40 million a lot of money to be spent.

A lot of noise is being made in the Mexican press about Man U continually scouting Andres Guardado from the Mexican Football League.

Info on the guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrés_Guardado

I've seen Guardado play plenty of times, and I don't think I've ever walked away from a match not convinced he isn't one of the best Mexicans playing right now. He's only 20 and is a total crack and if not bound for Man U, will definitely be going to some other Champions League team.

 

[Mama Smurf]

what? Rooney plays best when he is angry, he's having a bad season because he's been so docile. he has to find the balance and not explode, but some of his best football has been produced when he's been pissed off at something - for example his best ever goal vs Newcastle. I think he's had anger management classes which may explain his timid season.

Rooney angry = wasteful. Rooney happy = talented. Rooney docile = Rooney docile.

England have been poor for a long time so its not right to just blame it on a 100% defensive israeli team.

I blamed it on our poor finishing. And I thought we played well except for that.

Mama Smurf - this was your England team before the game:

-------------------------Foster---------------------

G Neville----Ferdinand-------Terry-------A Cole

Lennon-------Lampard----Hargreaves----J Cole

----------------Rooney--------Owen--------------

I dont think thats awfully different from what was played - sub Cole for Gerrard and you still have a disjointed dysfunctional team of individuals.

It's very different. Owen is a different class to any of our other main strikers. Lennon is on the right where he's actually strong. Joe Cole is probably our most creative player and can actually cross with his left foot. Gary Neville is much better than his brother, in every aspect, and Ashley Cole provides an actual left foot and can overlap with pace, unlike Carragher who's slow and comes inside everytime. Much better balance.

If there is no movement its because theres no space to move into. Thats where the clever bit comes in. Teams dont attack at Old Trafford if they can help it, they are more interested in defending against Utd than they are Arsenal imo.

100% disagree. I see teams set up shop against Arsenal, almost never against United.

Utd score all kinds of goals. Vs boro you saw Rooney blow a hat trick of balls through the middle - he made plenty of runs then. But when you're a striker and you have a midfield of Lennon, Lampard, Hargreaves, Gerrad/Cole - where do you suggest they run? The advantage of someone like Carrick is he plays from deep and if you hold the ball deep you attract the opposition forwards. Carrick allows his team mates to play better.

But Carrick wouldn't have attracted them forwards. They didn't come out once without the ball. It's like Liverpool against Barcelona, it didn't matter how much Barca passed it around in front of them, it didn't matter how creative their passers were, Liverpool knew their job and did it. You give your team a plan and they follow it.

As for where they should run, anywhere. Sideways, to the wing, back towards the box, off the shoulder of defenders...you just need to pull them around, and even if it doesn't put you in a good position, it should leave room for others when the defenders follow you. Owen would have been able to do it, always has done.

With Rooney then allowed to drop deep to get the ball and the other forward making wide/forward runs, you then have the ingredients to start stretching defences and the weapons to do some damage.

With Lennon's pace down the wings you can really start to see a game plan developing.

Which would be fine if Israel would magically start coming out against Carrick, but they wouldn't have. They didn't come out even when Gerrard and Lampard went deep to pick it up.

However with Lampard, what he does is push forward into the box at every opportunity, this reduces Rooney's options, he has to adopt different positions, it forces the opposition team into their own box, and gives them less to worry about - also clutters up the space available. They never have to worry about the ball over the top. This reduces the impact wingers can have as well, they'll be running into dead ends or crossing into a huge crowd.

You're talking like Scholes doesn't take up the positions for United just like Lampard does for England. There's no clash between Rooney and Scholes in terms of space. And I think Scholes is much more the creative one for United than Carrick.

You want a fluid team where the ball is moving back and forth, left and right and the players are able to interchange. Thats how you stretch a team.

You're right, I do want that. But it's the movement of the players that allows that to happen, not one man passing from the middle. The ball will move around when the players are available to pass to.

I'll say again, as I think it's getting a bit lost in the debate, I was impressed with England last night apart from the finishing. I think we'd have been more successful with Lennon on the right, but other than that I blame the strikers almost completely. To create that many chances against a team playing as defensively as they were, a team who are pretty good especially at home...it's something to be proud of. To not finish a single one of those chances is not. And Carrick instead of Lampard wouldn't have made a bit of difference in finishing those chances.

Now, if a teams playing as defensively as that, I could see an argument for bringing Carrick in for Hargreaves. The latter does a wonderful job defensively, but it was obvious after about 15 minutes that that wasn't what we'd need on the night. But not Carrick in for Lampard, the only guy (aprt from defoe late on) who posed any threat consistently.

 

[Mama Smurf]

A lot of noise is being made in the Mexican press about Man U continually scouting Andres Guardado from the Mexican Football League.

Info on the guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrés_Guardado

I've seen Guardado play plenty of times, and I don't think I've ever walked away from a match not convinced he isn't one of the best Mexicans playing right now. He's only 20 and is a total crack and if not bound for Man U, will definitely be going to some other Champions League team.

Isn't he one of the "golden three" of Mexico's youth, along with Giovanni dos Santos and Carlos Vela? The latter's at Arsenal and I guess will one day get a work permit, the former is at Barcelona and is rumoured to be chased by Liverpool...so it seems kind of appropriate for the third one to come to Man Utd.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Isn't he one of the "golden three" of Mexico's youth, along with Giovanni dos Santos and Carlos Vela? The latter's at Arsenal and I guess will one day get a work permit, the former is at Barcelona and is rumoured to be chased by Liverpool...so it seems kind of appropriate for the third one to come to Man Utd.

Aye he is.

After the Borgetti experiment, I'm kind of weary of any mexicans in the Premiership. While they are infinitely more talented and younger than the Borg, there's still an air of doubt in my mind that they won't be able to cope with the physicalness of the league.

Regardless, it'll be fun seeing them develop!

 

[Mama Smurf]

*tries to think of other Mexicans in the Premiership*

Ermmm...have there been any?

I think they could cope, Mexico impressed me in the WC against Argentina and I felt they played in a very...Premiership way. And maybe Marquez is just unusual in Mexico, I'm not sure, but he seems like a bit of a hardman at Barca.

 

[ianswoody]

Holy crap, umm... Landon Donovan is good. Anyone watching this on ESPN2?

 

[bud]

ENGLAND HUAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[jamesinclair]

*tries to think of other Mexicans in the Premiership*

Ermmm...have there been any?

.

Borgetti was in England, but now hes back in Mexico (Cruz Azul).

Not england, but Rafa Marquez is a starter for Barça.


Im sure there are other mexicans in england, but I cant think of them. I, of course, dont follow european football.

Unlike Brazilian, Argentine or US players, Mexicans dont ened to go to Europe. Mexican soccer pays VERY well, so theres less incentive.

The MLS has something like a 3 million cap per TEAM (plus one becham), while Mexican teams pay around 25 million per team.

 

[Osorio]

Holy crap, umm... Landon Donovan is good. Anyone watching this on ESPN2?

That was a great game for the USMNT and better for Landon Donovan. It just goes to show that he's best played at the forward position rather than an attacking mid. There were plenty of positives from that game, and I hope that it only makes Sunil Gulati's decision to keep Bob Bradley as head coach easier.

 

[Osorio]

Aye he is.

After the Borgetti experiment, I'm kind of weary of any mexicans in the Premiership. While they are infinitely more talented and younger than the Borg, there's still an air of doubt in my mind that they won't be able to cope with the physicalness of the league.

Regardless, it'll be fun seeing them develop!

What was wrong with Borgetti? I was pissed that Allardyce kept him in the reserves while he proved to be a great forward whenever he got a starting spot.

 

[shpankey]

man, Donovan is playing scary good right now. he could have actually had 6 goals in that game. he got robbed of two goals, one where he was taken down in the box and didn't get the penalty and another should of been a penalty on Beasley [Donovan would have kicked the penalty].. also, he just missed a one on one against the goalie, a chippie would've put it in. that would have been 6 goals. missing the one on one was his fault, but the two penalties he was flat out robbed of. poor officiating to say the least.

p.s. his 3rd goal was a f'kn awesome strike! Beasley made a beautiful assist there too.

 

[bud]

Would it be possible that mclaren gets fired before the qualifiers are over? England are doing absolutely horrible and that's the understatement of the year.

It's awesome that Hiddink is doing amazing with Russia. The miracle doctor