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Official Islamic Thread
- Thread starter AmMortal
- Start date
Congrats. May God bless him and his parents!
Do you speak arabic? Here is a duaa'a in Arabic.
اللهم أنبته نباتاً حسناً، واجعله قرة عين لوالديه واحفظه، وبارك لنا فيه واجعله من أهل الصلاح والتقوى
name of mother في هذه المناسبة نبارك لرفقتنا في هذه المدونة
Child's name
بارك الله لك في الموهوب لك، وشكرت الواهب، وبلغت أشدها، ورُزِقت بِرَّها
اللهم أنبت (اسم المولود
نباتاً حسناً، واجعلها قرة عين لوالديها واحفظها، وبارك لهما فيها واجعلها من أهل الصلاح والتقوىYup.
Necromanti
Member
What you describe is something that I think is inevitable, because it's a part of what it means to be human. It's just a matter of reconciling that to whatever standard you are adhering to. (Besides, in this context, God would be the only one who would have the right to judge people like Kozak on that matter, no?)
but there are no different standards, there is only one. So as a muslim you better stick to that.
Yes. We as muslims are not allowed to judge other muslims in their beliefs. We are only allowed to help them, guide them and give advice now and then. Being judgmental is wrong and the consequence of that is that it will lead that person astray even more. You have to chose wise words for someone who is in despair. But i also don't think that was the intention of Terra Firma. It was his way to show the problem more forthrightly.
It is like if i see someone in a mosque praying wrong (even the most basic stuff like putting your right hand on your left and not the other way around) i can't just go to him and say that he is doing it wrong - even if i have good intentions and just want to help him. It could lead to that he get's embarrassed (even if i only talk to him privately) and maybe he won't ever come back. People are like this - some of them can't take constructive criticism. You have to find other ways to approach even such little problems.
there is a little story i heard a long time ago, dunno what its origin is:
Two brothers saw a man doing the wudu wrong; instead of saying him directly what he is doing wrong and showing him how to do it right, they went to that person and said: "We would like to do wudu now - could you judge us at the end who did it better?" So the man saw both brothers doing the wudu in the right way and learned it that way without ever being confronted with his mistakes.
Tizoc
Member
Congrats. May God bless him and his parents!
Do you speak arabic? Here is a duaa'a in Arabic.
اللهم أنبته نباتاً حسناً، واجعله قرة عين لوالديه واحفظه، وبارك لنا فيه واجعله من أهل الصلاح والتقوى
name of mother في هذه المناسبة نبارك لرفقتنا في هذه المدونة
Child's name
بارك الله لك في الموهوب لك، وشكرت الواهب، وبلغت أشدها، ورُزِقت بِرَّها
اللهم أنبت (اسم المولود
Thanks! Yes I'm an arabic speaker =)
Darackutny
Junior Member
This is awesome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8ZHntABGA
Dr. Johnathan Brown talks about what early non-Muslim sources say about Islam. Watch the first five minutes, at least. It isn't every day that you find converts that are so learned about Islam. There is no doubt in my mind that this man is a lot more knowledgeable than Hamza Yusuf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK8ZHntABGA
Dr. Johnathan Brown talks about what early non-Muslim sources say about Islam. Watch the first five minutes, at least. It isn't every day that you find converts that are so learned about Islam. There is no doubt in my mind that this man is a lot more knowledgeable than Hamza Yusuf.
crazy monkey
Banned
I find the opposite. Converts are always more knowledgeable regarding islam because they learned and a made decision.
Asalam ulikum. I am not a regular contributer to this thread. However i would like every muslim and non muslim in this thread to check out this video.
The presenter is the famous Aid al qarni author of the famous book don't be sad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01EjD8V-ghE
The presenter is the famous Aid al qarni author of the famous book don't be sad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01EjD8V-ghE
archnemesis
Member
I could do without the religious connection, but otherwise it's good advice.
Terra Firma
Banned
Sorry, but Islam has given us criteria that we are supposed to judge by. Obviously we cannot judge a person's ultimate destination but the point of the shari'ah is to judge based on the apparent. A person who is killed for murder can easily end up being granted paradise but we judge based on the apparent. If anything, posts here are a reflection of a person's mindset and are even more worthy of scrutiny than a person's physical behaviour.
Also, I would not be as harsh if the person showed that they were sincere. Kozak's post is unrelenting and he wrote in a pretty "matter-of-fact" manner. Not to mention the fact that he judges our deen based on an utter lack of knowledge of the deen itself.
Remember, Islam is not a religion of pandering. It is not the job of Muslims to act as guides, but merely as messengers of the messengers. If a person rejects Islam and/or deliberately perverts it to suit some preconceived notion, it is not our job to pander and bend over backwards to accommodate such a view in the hopes that the person convert or return to Islam, especially since such a mindset has become quite prevalent among so-called "ex-Muslims" who leave Islam without having any substantial knowledge of it. Kozak and others like him are seen at almost every anonymous Islamic forum: they show up, claiming to be born Muslims, then present Western stereotypes and caricatures of Muslims and Islam as if it is some sort of evidence, then either act defensive or start hurling insults at the religion itself.
I don't know if you're Muslim or not but know this: we have been given the criteria to "judge" someone and we find it in the Qur'an and the ahadeeth. A Muslim who drinks alcohol, who commits fornication, etc. is judged to be an immoral person even if we don't know what's inside his heart. Why? Because in Islam, both actions and intentions matter. Such a person, for example, will not be considered a reliable witness in a court.
In Islam, we assume the best of Muslims by default and we make excuse after excuse for a Muslim who was seen committing a heinous action. This "assumption" goes out the door when the person voices his evils or continuously and publicly commits evil actions. For example, we may make an excuse for a Muslim who is in the company of a woman that that woman may be his sister or some other sort of relative. But if that Muslim lets it be known that this woman is not related to him and he is dating her, then we know he is openly sinning and assumptions go out the door.
As for placing desires above God, then yes, it is a part of the base human nature, but the point of Islam is to place God above desires and thus to overcome this base human nature. God has already granted us so many freedoms. God never tells us to not have sex, not enjoy food, not enjoy good company, etc. There is no concept of monasticism in Islam. What Islam does ask of us is balance. Being extreme in either way - such as permanently secluding yourself from society or being completely engrossed in society are both impermissible extremes.
@Terra Firma
Question: I read/heard that in one of the mosques in my neighbourhood a married imam apparently cheats with another woman. Most of the people there claim to know that. Let's say you were one of them. How would you react? Confront him with other people or tell his wife or ignore it and still pray behind him or go to another mosque.
Question: I read/heard that in one of the mosques in my neighbourhood a married imam apparently cheats with another woman. Most of the people there claim to know that. Let's say you were one of them. How would you react? Confront him with other people or tell his wife or ignore it and still pray behind him or go to another mosque.
Terra Firma
Banned
If there is enough evidence, he has to be removed from his post immediately, especially since the people paying his salary are the congregants. He has to be confronted about this (not as a group, but on a one on one or two on one basis) BUT if he denies it, suspicions should be dropped immediately since being suspicious of Muslims is impermissible, especially without definitive evidence.
If he does not deny it, he has to be removed. If he is nonchalant about it and if he shows no remorse and willingness to end this affair, his wife deserves to know as well.
Also, has the possibility of a polygamous marriage even crossed people's minds? A person has the right to marry another woman without telling his wife. Many Muslims, even those living in the West, have multiple wives (although in the Western legal system, only the first wife is considered a "wife" while the second wife is considered a live-in partner). Before suspecting adultery, polygamy could be an excuse. If his first wife does not know about his polygamy, it is not our place to inform her as that right lies solely in his hands. If she is aware, then there is no problem at all.
Yeah I backed away from the thread after my post but only because I knew what I wrote isn't how I feel about religion but just me getting carried away in an attempt to justify why I think religion is silly.
After seeing Terra's posts I feel I can explain myself better.
That is why I'm not fond of religion.
I'm sorry but to have a criteria in which you judge people is absolutely ridiculous. The world is full of different people and they should not have to fit a criteria. Why did God make everyone different if this was the case? Did God, in some sick joke, place Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism just so he could punish those who are lead "astray"?
I don't love God. God hasn't done anything for my family or me and I am not grateful to God. I am grateful to my family and friends. They have been the ones who have helped me and who I have been the happiest around.
If the act of drinking beers and smoking marijuana isn't hurting the ones around me why is it a bad thing? Why would God place these items on our Earth? Just as some sick joke again?
I really don't want to come off as hateful towards Islam or any religion, I just have a lot of questions to which I receive answers of "The Quran........" which only widens my distance from religion.
Let me ask you this, how well do you believe Muhammad and the Quran would be received today if Islam were just being introduced?
I believe God exists and that he/she/they won't judge me if I were a good Muslim but instead if I were a good person, were my actions in this life more hurtful to those around me, was I a pleasant person to be around.
After seeing Terra's posts I feel I can explain myself better.
That is why I'm not fond of religion.
I'm sorry but to have a criteria in which you judge people is absolutely ridiculous. The world is full of different people and they should not have to fit a criteria. Why did God make everyone different if this was the case? Did God, in some sick joke, place Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism just so he could punish those who are lead "astray"?
I don't love God. God hasn't done anything for my family or me and I am not grateful to God. I am grateful to my family and friends. They have been the ones who have helped me and who I have been the happiest around.
If the act of drinking beers and smoking marijuana isn't hurting the ones around me why is it a bad thing? Why would God place these items on our Earth? Just as some sick joke again?
I really don't want to come off as hateful towards Islam or any religion, I just have a lot of questions to which I receive answers of "The Quran........" which only widens my distance from religion.
Let me ask you this, how well do you believe Muhammad and the Quran would be received today if Islam were just being introduced?
I believe God exists and that he/she/they won't judge me if I were a good Muslim but instead if I were a good person, were my actions in this life more hurtful to those around me, was I a pleasant person to be around.
crazy monkey
Banned
nop from what I know. you have to take permission from wife. There has to be a reason for second marriage as well.
A thoroughly modern take on dogma. Your version of a diety seems to do nothing but exist.
Then don't be shocked if God won't be grateful to you in the afterlife. On the day of judgment your parents and friends won't be there to help you, it is simply every human for himself.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam and probably of the other monotheistic religions aswell. Either you start reading and learning from the beginning or ignore it forever. I suggest the first option but it is up to you.
Could you please provide a source for this. Thanks.
That's fine, but Islam also makes INCREDIBLY clear that the only judge is God, not you or me. Keeping this uppermost in our mind should promote humility in ourselves which is incompatible with being as judgmental as you come off in your posts.
I didn't find anything of Kozak's posts to be inconsistent or not sincere. I thought they were incredibly honest posts speaking of doubts and crises of faith that all of us go through.
Acting holier than though and high and mighty has nothing to do with pandering one way or the other.
How about treating people with respect? Which is something that you aren't doing at all.
There are degrees of sins and if you're not hurting anybody around you then I imagine that would make a difference, but aren't you hurting yourself?
You demand respect but simultaneously subscribe to the Qur'an, a book that expresses nothing but utter disdain for pretty much every non-muslim non-straight human. Cool.
Lack of respect goes in a hell of a lot of directions, Stridone and Terra Firma must be the best of buddies. They certainly act similar.
It does? Where?
It does? Where?
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/Quran-Hate.htm
All taken out of context I'm sure. And we all know what the religion of peace thinks of homosexuality.
Could you point to something specific? Pointing to somebody else's research isn't exactly helpful when responding to a comment you made. The maintainers of that website aren't the ones posting here after all.
Something specific? How about all of it? How is this post even a relevant response to my point? You want me to personally scan passages of the Qur'an to prove that it's a hateful book? This is right at the top of the page:
Such a respectful, peaceful book.
No they don't. Are you freaking kidding me?
RustyNails
Member
I'm sorry but all this talk of judging has no basis in Islam or Sunnah...you can't judge people and say oh they're so good based on how much charity they give or say so-and-so is going to hell for not praying salah/fasting or giving zakat. Quran speaks of disbelievers as people who received the message, but rejected it. It also speaks of a certain sect of disbelievers who believed the message to be true, but were against it because they'd lose their socio-economic status or standing. I believe Abu Talib was one of them. But we are not to judge them, because Quran also says pious Christians and Jews have a place in heaven.
Anybody can play the quoting game.
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=3&verse=110&to=120
Muslims will say they are peaceful I am sure. Others will say different. Yada Yada.
Edit: I'm not really sure why Surah Al-Imran gets brought up as often as it does. And for the reasons it does.
edit 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali-Imran wiki if needed.
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=3&verse=110&to=120
Muslims will say they are peaceful I am sure. Others will say different. Yada Yada.
Edit: I'm not really sure why Surah Al-Imran gets brought up as often as it does. And for the reasons it does.
edit 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali-Imran wiki if needed.
You mean those Christians and Jews from a time before the message of Islam was revealed, right?
why?
9:29 is much more interesting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29
edit: Oh yeah, I know this surah. The surahs during the wars... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba_29
edit: Oh yeah, I know this surah. The surahs during the wars... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-Tawba
replicashooter
Banned
Can somebody on here who can read the original Arabic text clarify something for me:
In the translations the word Mecca is mentioned only twice and I have been lead to believe that this is also a substitution as the original Arabic states "City Of Peace".
Correct?
In the translations the word Mecca is mentioned only twice and I have been lead to believe that this is also a substitution as the original Arabic states "City Of Peace".
Correct?
Well, as far as i know you at least have to acknowledge Muhammed (saw) as a Prophet to enter Jennah. And as far as i know Christians and Jews in today's time refuse to do it, Christians even claiming Isa (as) to be God himself/the son of him. Back then when 'Christianity' and 'Judaism' weren't corrupted, pious people who followed the teachings of Isa (as) or Musa (as) etc. will inshaallah gain access to Jennah. Please enlighten me if i am wrong. Thanks.
You will be enlightened soon, I'm sure, by some other poster. I'm more live and let live kind of a poster. believe what you believe etc.
RustyNails
Member
The people who followed the "uncorrupted" version of Christianity and Judaism were nothing more than Muslims. Believe in 1 God, pray, give charity, be nice to others, don't be cruel, etc. If Quran was referring to the followers of uncorrupted versions of Christianity and Judaism who will end up in heaven, it would not have referred to them as Christians and Jews. This is my understanding.
I'm bored already. Having looked through those quotes by the religion of peace website... It's the same old stuff again and again. Where's that ted vid on tourists and quran intepretation etc...
edit: http://youtu.be/3Y2Or0LlO6g
edit: http://youtu.be/3Y2Or0LlO6g
Terra Firma
Banned
When a court judges you according to the law of the land, is it doing something unjust?
God has provided us humans rules that we must adhere to. If we do not, we are disobeying him. That is why in Islam, we have the right to judge a person based on what is externally known.
Also, what is the point of having a set morality when there is no room for judgement? Do you not judge someone who murders another in cold blood? Do you not judge someone who steals from another? These judgements are based upon moralities that either your society has embedded into you or your religion or your parents, etc.
And yes, the world is full of different people but that does not mean we accommodate for everyone. Do you see people accommodating pedophiles? Do you see people accommodating murderers and thieves? Do you see people accommodating those who destroy families and create arguments for the sake of argument (i.e. trolling)? Of course not.
Similarly, the laws of God are there to allow us to maintain a society that is just but also stable.
You completely missed the point.
Let's say you love your parents. If they ask you to do something that you may not necessarily like, is rebelling against their command a show of affection or love? Similarly, the reason we follow the commandments of God is because we love and fear Him and thus worship him in the way that HE wants to be worshipped, not how we feel He should be worshipped.
Tying into your previous comment about the world having distinct people, what makes you think everyone will come to a common ground on how to worship God? There are some sick people that exist whose understanding of love is perverse. Some psychopaths have been known to kill people who they have loved, for example, because that is how they understood "love".
The same reason that it is possible to commit rape, theft, murder, etc. is the same reason it is possible to drink alcohol and eat swine.
God gave us free will. We have the right to commit sin but then we must face the consequences for violating the laws of God.
I can tell from your posts that your understanding of even the basics is flawed. If a master wants to be worshiped in a particular manner, what right do you have?
If you're an Atheist, then that is a whole different story. Are you an Atheist? I'm starting to suspect this since you've implied that you owe nothing to God. If you are, then this entire argument is pointless and we need to discuss something else entirely.
Pretty well since there would be even more evidence available for the inscrutability of the Qur'an and the prophethood of Muhammad PBUH. Since such technologies that we have today weren't available back then, we have to rely on the written and verbal accounts of hundreds of thousands of people, some who met the Prophet PBUH directly and others who met those who met him (basically, the first three generations of Islam).
Once again, you're being contradictory. You said you don't love God but you believe Him to exist. Believing in God necessitates loving Him since He created you, the universe you live in, and everyone you love. Without His power, none of them would exist. It is God's mercy that allows you to live, that allows the universe to exist.
Terra Firma
Banned
You don't know what being judgemental means if you truly think that.
God has the right to judge based on the hearts and intentions of a person. As humans, we are given the right to judge based on the apparent. Have I said so and so is going to hell? Of course not. Will I say that so and so is a major sinner if I saw him commit a major sin in front of me without remorse? Of course I will.
The caliph Umar would refuse testimony from someone who shaved his beard. Does that mean that this person who would shave his beard not enter the paradise? Of course not.
Do you even know WHY we have the shari'ah? Do you even know why we have punishments in the shari'ah? If we are not allowed to judge people, why have these punishments?
He posted Islamophobic material that even the most lax of Muslims would find offensive.
Would you say that the Prophet PBUH, the caliphs, and the companions were acting "holier than though [sic]" when they wanted to kill the false claimants of prophethood in their time? Were they acting "holier than though [sic]" when they wanted to wage war on those who rejected the payment of zakat? Were they acting "holier than though [sic]" when they warned against evil people, even those who would later come to Islam?
So, you are okay with respecting someone who disrespects the religion? With someone who insults the religion and spreads lies and falsehoods about the religion?
Sorry, but my religion tells me that someone who insults my religion is not worthy of my respect or consideration.
Stridone,
Sigh, i think you have a problem with God himself rather than islam itself. You see God says in the quran i have created men and jinn only to worship me.
Meaning if you dont, you face the consequences. Now the beauty of this world is that it's your choice. You dont have to believe in God. It's your personal choice. Just like it's ours. But please don't get outraged when you see verses in the quran where God promises to send those who disbelieve in him to hell. It shouldn't matter to you what the quran says in the first place since you dont believe in God am i right?
As for the verses of killing, islam has no issues with killing when it comes to self defense. That's the right of anybody and everybody. Those verses were send down when the pagans were fighting the muslims. And islam is unapologetic when it comes to self defense.
Terra Firma has a point. We can't judge the iman of people, their creed, but we can judge their actions. Well we can, but i don't have to
what does 'my understanding' mean? Your own interpretation? afaik we should follow the right understanding/comprehension of Ahlu Sunnah.
So we are talking about 2:62
"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."
but what about 3:85
"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers."
link: http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/convert/jannah_christians.htm
Zakir Naik also explains it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf17WNHzZ-A
edit: another source: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/727/jew or christian heaven
But still i am willing to understand 'your' understanding. please continue. Thanks.
Allah knows best.
what does 'my understanding' mean? Your own interpretation? afaik we should follow the right understanding/comprehension of Ahlu Sunnah.
So we are talking about 2:62
"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve."
but what about 3:85
"And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers."
link: http://www.islamicweb.com/begin/convert/jannah_christians.htm
the link talks about 2:63 but they meant 2:62. must be a mistake.
Zakir Naik also explains it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xf17WNHzZ-A
edit: another source: http://islamqa.com/en/ref/727/jew or christian heaven
But still i am willing to understand 'your' understanding. please continue. Thanks.
Allah knows best.
Terra Firma
Banned
For something to be forbidden, explicit proof has to be present. There is no explicit evidence of a husband needing to tell his first wife of any other wives he has. The only time the issue of a second wife would become sinful is if the husband mistreats one of his wife over the other (i.e. he is unjust to one of them) or if the husband lies about it to his first wife when confronted. He has no obligation to tell his first wife about his second wife nor does he have an obligation to ask permission.
Some women attach a clause to their nikah agreements that they have the right to seek divorce if the husband gets a second wife, which is permissible.
Also, some Muslims, especially online, should differentiate between what is permissible and what is advised and praiseworthy. A secret second marriage is most definitely NOT praiseworthy and may be a source of sin (but is not inherently sinful). It can be a sin if the first wife finds out about it, confronts the husband, and the husband ends up lying to cover it up or it may be a sin if the husband treats one wife better than he does the other. If the husband is able to maintain a second wife, is just to both his wives, and his first wife does not have any idea that he has a second wife since his treatment of her has not worsened, then there is nothing sinful about a secret second marriage. But, this is harder to maintain and that is why scholars suggest that the first wife be told beforehand. And it is part of the sunnah for the wives to know each other (the wives of the Prophet PBUH knew each other). But again, a sunnah act cannot be used as a grounds for hurmah (prohibtion).
An example is that of killing a killer. If a man kills another, the father of the victim has the right to have the man killed, have him pay blood money, or forgive him. All these options are permissible but there are those options that are closer to the sunnah and those options that may lead to something worse. The best option is obviously not to kill the killer. We see mercy from Muslims even today, which is closer to the sunnah: http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/10/14/243752.html
If you ask any scholar, he will tell you that a secret second marriage is against the spirit of Islam and the spirit of the nikah itself (which is supposed to be a public ceremony) and the scholar will be right. But a scholar won't say that it is haraam to have a secret nikah since a broad prohibition like this would mean that any marriage conducted in secret would be akin to adultery.
Here's a link to a scholar who is known to be extremely strict on many issues: http://themajlis.net/Article149.html
Even he does not say it is haraam to have a secret wife inherently, but he does say that the various other acts that are associated with having a secret wife can lead to haraam. Some may be tempted to say then that since having a secret second wife can lead to haraam, then having a secret second wife is in itself haraam - but then that would also mean that a secret marriage, regardless of whether it is the first or the second, third, or fourth, would also be haraam as they also have the potential for deception (e.g. deceiving the parents).
LaserBuddha
Member
You are insulting the beliefs of those who don't follow your particular medieval, draconian demands. Whose respect are you worthy of?
I'm so glad people like this are inevitably losing their grasp on society and dying out. It's just a matter of waiting out the clock. The world as a whole will not miss you.
We have to judge, but nowhere does that require getting on a high horse and aggressively deriding someone else.
Again juding someone's actions and words (which is a necessary component of having firm values) has nothing to do with assuming they are ignorant, deriding their upbringing, questioning their moral fiber, and making assumptions about their reasoning and treating it as fact ALL of which you did in your first post to Kozak.
If I expect them to be respect me and if I expect to be able to have a reasonable conversation with them and as long as they're not trolling? Yes I do. And Kozak was far from trolling.
You know you're not following the example of the Prophet when he was being disrespected in Mecca and then later when he signed a peace treaty with the people who insulted him more than anyone else.
If you think believing in islam/christianity/whatever is a choice you must be a very simple-minded person. You, and most muslims, were born into islam.
LaserBuddha
Member
The overwhelming majority of the human species will not enter paradise as a consequence of culture and geography. God's will!
It's like Earth is the Titanic and he put one lifeboat on it.
No choice during birth indeed but you make your own choices when you grow up.
I am in my late twenties and i can choose to walk away from islam if i choose to and no one would stop me from doing so.
Look be happy with yourself. You clearly do not need God. So there is no point in lecturing me or others on what God should or shouldnt do