That's a fair point to make, it's only the believers who hold on to the bigoted interpretations that are qualified bigots. However, given that there are such discriminatory laws with regards to marriage or apostasy even in countries like Malaysia, it would suggest that the number of bigots, at least at this point in time, is not materially insignificant.
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Official Islamic Thread
- Thread starter AmMortal
- Start date
That's a fair point to make, it's only the believers who hold on to the bigoted interpretations that are qualified bigots. However, given that there are such discriminatory laws with regards to marriage or apostasy even in countries like Malaysia, it would suggest that the number of bigots, at least at this point in time, is not materially insignificant.
I wanted to make sure that people realize that that's what it is.
The fact of the matter is that I think very little of the truth value or usefulness of religious beliefs. So long as I can educate my own children and not be spoken ill of or maligned behind my back, I don't care what nonsense or rules are attempted to be placed on them so long as they have the choice to participate, a choice I myself will give them freely.
So the answer to your question is 'No', I have no problem with what people may attempt to do.
OttomanScribe
Member
Repetition does not make truth.
I am inclined to believe that your views on religion would make you just as likely to marry a Muslim as they would be likely to marry you. If they are bigoted for not wanting to marry you, then the same is true of you.
Healthy families are the building blocks of a community. The marriage contract forms the legal guard of such relationships. A marriage between a pious Muslim and a non-Muslim will be neither healthy, nor, in the legal prism of the Sha'riah, capable of guarding the rights of both parties.
The simple fact that these practices are bigoted makes it bigoted. Discrimination against apostates, discrimination against other religions, discrimination against sexual preference. To accept and uphold such beliefs would make that adherent bigoted by definition, and invariably speaks of the lack of moral character of said believer.
As was noted before about 'interpretations', I accepted that this would only be true of people holding those interpretations.
I never said I wouldn't marry a Muslim and I've dated Muslims before, I don't see how it would be bigoted on my part if someone adhering to a bigoted doctrine prevents them from marrying me.
crazy monkey
Banned
any one?
I always thought it was Russian myself (Marat Safin). Maybe you can find out more via the Russian connection?
crazy monkey
Banned
If I google , it will only says it is small name of prophet SAW nothing else. There must be more to it. It also says it is in Arabic.
would you marry a bigot?
Smiles and Cries
Member
Have you guys ever hit a wall on something you found too difficult to do?
A rule that was just too personal or too much a part of you to change in you life to be regarded a good muslim?
Before I converted to Islam I was a painter. I did not know how devastating a struggle it would be to find out my art was considered such a major Sin in Islam. I did stop painting for many years before I became a Muslim but just knowing those images where out there continued to really cause harm mentally. I never approached painting thinking I was creating idols. But after my trip to India to travel and learn with some group of brothers it was overwhelming. I felt unclean and an outcast because I did not see a way to give up being a painter and still feel like I was being real with myself. By the time I came back from Bangladesh I found I could no longer pray as easily with a clear mind as I once did.
Ignorance is bliss. I wish I never learned so many rules and laws from these brothers but after learning them it just became a list of things I could not do and felt deep shame from it.
I am not trying to say everyone should be perfect but for me if someone places limits before me and if I can follow them and live by them then I am at peace but if I have to struggle against them every single moment then there is no peace in that.
giving up Pork was easy
giving up drinking alcohol was simple
giving up my painting... I don't even know how to do that
so learning this one thing left like it doomed me to fail as a muslim.
It is not the only reason keeping me from the peace I once had but it is a simple part, a key part of how I feel as a human being.
Just wanted to share with you guys because I do not know how to gain that peace I once had when I converted before the trips to learn more. I regret going on those trips when I think about what I lost. After the Earthquake in Haiti I started to paint again because that is the only thing I have always done when I felt pain. So I felt I took so many steps backwards I cannot resolve my faith and being a painter. How does someone who never believed in censorship change the way he paints and ignore the subject and the people and the experiences he use to paint about?
Going to Makkah and Medina was the very best moment of my life and still is.
Am I looking at this rule the wrong way?
A rule that was just too personal or too much a part of you to change in you life to be regarded a good muslim?
Before I converted to Islam I was a painter. I did not know how devastating a struggle it would be to find out my art was considered such a major Sin in Islam. I did stop painting for many years before I became a Muslim but just knowing those images where out there continued to really cause harm mentally. I never approached painting thinking I was creating idols. But after my trip to India to travel and learn with some group of brothers it was overwhelming. I felt unclean and an outcast because I did not see a way to give up being a painter and still feel like I was being real with myself. By the time I came back from Bangladesh I found I could no longer pray as easily with a clear mind as I once did.
Ignorance is bliss. I wish I never learned so many rules and laws from these brothers but after learning them it just became a list of things I could not do and felt deep shame from it.
I am not trying to say everyone should be perfect but for me if someone places limits before me and if I can follow them and live by them then I am at peace but if I have to struggle against them every single moment then there is no peace in that.
giving up Pork was easy
giving up drinking alcohol was simple
giving up my painting... I don't even know how to do that
so learning this one thing left like it doomed me to fail as a muslim.
It is not the only reason keeping me from the peace I once had but it is a simple part, a key part of how I feel as a human being.
Just wanted to share with you guys because I do not know how to gain that peace I once had when I converted before the trips to learn more. I regret going on those trips when I think about what I lost. After the Earthquake in Haiti I started to paint again because that is the only thing I have always done when I felt pain. So I felt I took so many steps backwards I cannot resolve my faith and being a painter. How does someone who never believed in censorship change the way he paints and ignore the subject and the people and the experiences he use to paint about?
Going to Makkah and Medina was the very best moment of my life and still is.
Am I looking at this rule the wrong way?
Depends on whether you think you can bring them to life or not... Cause somehow I don't think idol worship is possible in your case.. 
Cultural interpretation has always existed. Whilst alcohol rules were tightened, the chronology of the hadiths regarding threats and art went the other way...
http://www.questionsonislam.com/que...ed-information-about-pictures-and-photographs
Cultural interpretation has always existed. Whilst alcohol rules were tightened, the chronology of the hadiths regarding threats and art went the other way...
http://www.questionsonislam.com/que...ed-information-about-pictures-and-photographs
Smiles and Cries
Member
thanks I'll read that page when I am more awake
I never think of painting that way... bringing things to life or anything. I paint emotions.
It is so strange that I have struggled with this for 2 years now.
I got an email a few months ago from a medical student in Saudi Arabia his english was not very good but it was clear enough that he was thanking me for my Sickle Cell Pain Art
So this art has been out there for many years about Sickle Cell Disease Pain and he told me he has Sickle Cell Disease and told me how he uses the images in class and at the hospital to educate others he said he saw the images on zazzle.com on ties and he was going to order ties to wear at the hospital because medical school was nearly done for him.
So he was thinking me for this art about his pain because he felt no one really understood it until he found the images. Anyway I have Sickle Cell Disease. I learned from the brothers that pain is also a major blessing since each time you hurt its like your sins are being forgiven or a reward is being prepared for you. I have lived with a lot of pain due to this disease. So his email was touching because I understood the pain he was telling me about and the hundreds of thousands in Saudi he told me that had this same illness.
Anyway I replied to this medical student with Sickle Cell telling him how I felt about him thanking me for this when I felt creating this art was a major sin against my faith. I cannot remove those images they have already been published in medical books so I left them online. He never replied but he did order 10 ties with those images a few days later.
I do not paint to bring things to life or created idols. I want to observe human experiences and struggles. Like the experience of growing up in Haiti and the culture.
So I feel stuck between what I was told was a major Sin and what I have painted or feel I should be painting about. I would love to paint a whole series of the struggles of Muslims in these crazy times. But I feel stuck now that I don't want to offend people when it was not my intention. My heart had not of those motivations or ambitions.
I felt really cheated of my peace because I cannot get this out of my mind.
I would have a problem with my child marrying into a 'proper' Muslim family (by which I mean a very traditional / conservative interpretation of Islam). That's because I'm bigoted*. On the plus side, I'm also honest.
*It's actually due to a number of cultural incompatabilities but I'm happy to call the recognition of such incompatibility 'bigotry' if needs be.
I'm no scholar but when I went travelling I saw many depictions of humans and animals in various forms in islamic arts...the historians and knowledgeable people of these works have said they were done with the knowledge that they knew their works would not be seen as or taken as a form of idolatry...which was the worry at the time of the prophet (alayhissalam) thus the dislike of these thing etc. They see it as purely something to do with the period and to be taken in the context of whether or not someone will take them in as a form of idolatry...
What do you see as culturally incompatible in Britain? Are you with Cameron in that multiculturalism has failed?
crazy monkey
Banned
Smile and Cries this is my personal opinion not a religious one but i know few muslim painters . I personally believe it is the intention that matters. M F hussain used to paint characters all the time and he was considered one of the best. I personally feel that it is your intentions at the end of the day that counts.
I like quoting books, lol. Oxford History of Islam
This is well-researched stuff by world renowned scholars. Page 230:
Islamic art isn't just meant to be art situated for "religious" purposes. It can also refer to art in the secular realm. There's a rich history of art in Islamic civilization and there have been many Muslim artists that have represented figures within their work.
Smiles and Cries
Member
Thanks to all of you. I had some good things to read and think about.
I need to research more about muslim artists that used figures and the intentions behind those works. This is a good start thanks again.
I need to research more about muslim artists that used figures and the intentions behind those works. This is a good start thanks again.
OttomanScribe
Member
How do you define bigoted? If being bigoted is being 'obstinately convinced of the superiority of one's own opinions, and prejudiced against those who have different opinions, then that quite possibly describes us both.
In my experience of you, you are constantly expressing a conviction as to the superiority of your own beliefs, which is not something I have a problem with.
What kind of a belief system is not convinced of its own correctness?
Your objection to this idea, that a Muslim should not marry someone who does not share the same fundamental belief as themselves, seems based in a desire to show your own belief in the inferiority of Islam. This is itself, at least according to the popular definition, bigoted. Indeed your own conviction, and constant ranting about the inferiority of Islam, seems to be the same.
I think that if being bigoted means being convinced of one's own beliefs, which will naturally mean that one believes that their conviction is superior, then that describes me.
So I guess I agree on that point. You would care for your child and not want them marrying someone who would be incompatible with them. That doesn't sound like bigotry, it sounds like the genuine concern of a good father.
Are you talking about painting figures specifically? There is certainly a long history of Muslim art, some of it, mainly the Persian tradition, being miniature painting. I am good friends with a few Muslim artists.
That said, I don't believe there is much wiggle room when it comes to drawing of figures that possess life/animation. If this is the only thing that you have a jihad with, then mash'Allah brother!
Have you spoken to a scholar about this issue? Maybe write in to Seekers Guidance? I can even give you the number/email of a respected artist, a convert, who is in my community if you like akhi
I gather he has had similar issues.OttomanScribe
Member
Also apologies for my late reply, I'm interstate atm. One of my close friends got married with 12 hours notice alhamdulillah, he is Bengali and she is Somali and it has been years where they have been trying to get married.
Ustadh Usama Canon did their Nikah
alhamdulillah, he is Bengali and she is Somali and it has been years where they have been trying to get married.Ustadh Usama Canon did their Nikah
OttomanScribe
Member
Has anyone else seen this: http://www.al-muhaddithat.org/book/4554321579
?
The Sheikh has compiled a 40 volume (so far) dictionary of historical female Hadith/religious scholars... 8000 and counting. SubhanAllah, alhamduliLlah, Allahu ackbar!
?
The Sheikh has compiled a 40 volume (so far) dictionary of historical female Hadith/religious scholars... 8000 and counting. SubhanAllah, alhamduliLlah, Allahu ackbar!
OttomanScribe
Member
I think that a comperable level of religious faith is an important thing in a marriage. My wife is traditionalist Sunni. She is a different madhab to me, but that is not an issue. She loves my Sheikh but she is not inclined towards tasawuf so much.
In my experience, the understanding that someone has of their purpose and goals in their life, is something that needs to be shared by a couple. My wife and I both view our marriage is not something primarily for our own gratification, but rather as a means to please God. Going into it with this assumption means that both of us try not to be concerned with our own wants in the relationship.
Happily enough, this usually means that both of us get what we want out of it, alhamduliLlah.
I think that in general, like looks for like. A religious man will generally not have to worry about being tempted into a relationship, haraam or halal, with a non-religious woman, rather the primary attraction will be towards women who are like himself in their world view.
In my experience, when a relationship happens between a religious man and a non-religious woman or vice versa, it ends badly. I knew a religious woman whose husband had little affection for the deen, he was abusive and viscious, exploiting her patience and sincerity to his own benefit. Similarly I knew a religious brother whose wife was capricious and hateful, and she would also do the same thing, exploiting his adherence to the letter of the Sha'riah to her advantage.
In what way? culturally? reformist? or just someone who doesn't go to the mosque often enough...?
Bigot- A person who is intolerantly devoted to their own prejudices.
There is nothing prejudicial about being intolerant of prejudice. It's the despots argument that we should all tolerate intolerance.
As I've pointed out before, given the biological impetus that would cause religion to resurface time and again (albeit in different forms), it should be expected that the presence of religions should be tolerated. However, the practice of said religions should never entertain the prejudices of belief.
I'm indifferent if the only religion in the world was Islam and all religious believers today held it. I am not okay if that version of Islam is one that discriminates on the basis of sexual preference or of religion and many other issues that would cause ethical, social or moral concerns.
That intolerant version of Islam cannot be tolerated in any capacity and indeed must be actively annihilated for the well-being of all. So you see, I have nothing against your religion, only the versions of your religion as held by a material number of adherents.
I should also point out again, in light of your attempts to guess the basis of my desire, that my mother is Muslim and my father is Christian. My 'basis' as it were is the result of finding such tenets to be disgustingly bigoted and needs to be completely hunted down, persecuted and eradicated.
Think of it as... an existential argument, namely mine.
I wouldn't mind it, since I'm not too religious myself. When I'm looking for a wife, I'll probably look at how religious she is, but it won't really be a deciding factor since that will be hypocritical of me. I guess it also matters what you mean by 'not that religious'. Considers themselves Muslim and has good character, but doesn't really follow the requirements (ie pray outside of Ramadan)? That's okay with me (because that's how I am...). How about clubbing, drinking, already slept with several guys? Not interested. Heck, religious Muslims probably will ignore me because of my lacking faith so I don't really have a choice :/
As long as she considers herself Muslim, there's always a chance of her becoming more religious down the line. That's actually a common way of thinking in Lebanon I'm told. Some of my relatives told their daughters, who wanted to wear the hijab, that it'd be better if they left it off until they grew up and got married. The older generation there seem to subscribe to the belief that one can be forgiving in their beliefs until they got married. I've seen it happen many times over here in Australia too. I've seen some who were so detached from their religion end up becoming good Muslims once they got married and had children.
Of course, that train of thought is more cultural than religious and I'm sure many Muslims on GAF wouldn't encourage it.
As a side note, I was actually wondering not too long ago if there are any Muslims females who wear the hijab. You're the first I've seen on GAF in the five years I've been here. You look wonderful mashallah.
Most of that is rhetoric framed as an argument. I feel like Plato facing up to Gorgias. urgh...
Take me and my society built on the pyramid of ideas. Good ideas rise to the top, bad ideas fall away to the bottom. But unlike you there is not a patronising telling off of the individual in my case. I got no clue what the answers are. but ideas nonethless are allowed to exist. One is allowed the platform to state their argument, and debate their case.
You are intolerant - it seems - for the greater good; a good defined on your own exclusive terms - justified to you and your choir. Good luck entering into dialogue with your walling off zero tolerance approach.
There can be no tolerance of intolerance. If the beliefs of the religion cannot adapt to the secular standard then it must be curtailed like every other religion whose practices are not tolerated (child sacrifice, ritual scarrification of children, religious consumption of bush meat, etc.)
Only the thinnest of lines are protecting religious intolerance at the moment and this thin line is decreasing. The laws of the land, which are secular, are actually further ahead than the politics of the land would allow for, but we see the politics slowly catch up. Even now the province of Ontario is trying to push for GBLT clubs in both public and Catholic school systems in light of suicides spawned from intolerance and the concept of such things are obviously riling the religious.
Adherents may be looking for a middle ground on such issues but there is none. Only at the brink do people and ideas truly change and such beliefs must be brought to the brink for adaptation to happen. The longer this is delayed, the longer needless persecution continues.
Oooh I see. I was just wondering if there was ever a case where people in this thread might have been interested in a girl/guy but then found out that they don't have the same religious values as them. But I guess that's a good point.
Hahah thank you, I think I'm the only hijabi-gaf here heh (or the rest are hiding)
And yeah, I know there are people who are generally good people and have their faith, but they don't necessarily follow everything (such as praying, covering themselves entirely, etc..). Most of what I hear is more traditional, such as this girl I know is getting a divorce because her husband was too strict on her (wanted her to wear the niqab and didn't want her going out so much with her friends).
edit: and what if one of you guys were to marry a jewish or christian woman, would you expect her to become muslim eventually?
user8503492
Banned
Theres a community forum ran by a local wealthy business/land owner who has consistantly ran for office in our town but has, thankfully, lost thus far.
Its filled with conservatives/republicans who constantly circle jerk each others postings while banning/deleting any users whos views that dont match to there own.
I routinely lurk the site since my wife works for the local government in recreations/social programs thus making her a target since they view any social programs as a drain that should be only finaced by volunteers/donations.
While lurking today I saw that a member posting a news article about some type of attack by extremist in another country. Oh course there was some hate thrown around but what stuck with me, which I will paste in a second, is this guys views. Mind you like I said, he is a powerfull person in the community be it money, influence, etc.. and is pretty mcuh the head of the conservative/GOP base.
So here is onc of the many responses he posted that made me just step back and say wow..
They are gathering steam it seems and more support as local elections arent to far off and its scary..theres a HUGE chance this guy and his cronies will be running are local government soon...
Its filled with conservatives/republicans who constantly circle jerk each others postings while banning/deleting any users whos views that dont match to there own.
I routinely lurk the site since my wife works for the local government in recreations/social programs thus making her a target since they view any social programs as a drain that should be only finaced by volunteers/donations.
While lurking today I saw that a member posting a news article about some type of attack by extremist in another country. Oh course there was some hate thrown around but what stuck with me, which I will paste in a second, is this guys views. Mind you like I said, he is a powerfull person in the community be it money, influence, etc.. and is pretty mcuh the head of the conservative/GOP base.
So here is onc of the many responses he posted that made me just step back and say wow..
They are gathering steam it seems and more support as local elections arent to far off and its scary..theres a HUGE chance this guy and his cronies will be running are local government soon...
Intolerance of child sacrifice and tolerance of intolerance are two separate things. let's not muddy the issue here and somehow allow you to use that as platform to launch your argument.
A democracy may tolerate free speech, because of the importance its citizens give it; it's not inherent and its not universal, because free speech varies from society to society, from virtually none in some thought experiments, to as much as possible in other societies.
Sure, you may say homosexuality is a universal human right, and you will state a very good argument for this to be considered so, but that is not to say, that you have somehow argued for the right to exercise the stomping out of all those who do not accept your ideas.
Opinion and practice are two different things. You may be entitled to the opinion of such but your rights to practice are limited by the rights of others.
Slavery and anti-miscegnation laws are examples of such practices that have been stamped out even though one is entitled to opinions about them.
ahh I see. Good point.
OttomanScribe
Member
In your post you have described nothing other than a shallow justification for your bigotry being somehow less immoral than anyone else's. This is unconvincing.
What self convinced ideology does not think that it is all for the better of those who do not yet follow it? Your language of eradication, indeed of social purification, evokes the writings of the most extreme clerics amongst any religion.
In relation to the discussion at hand, you have made it clear that you not only would not marry an individual who was a devout Muslim, but believe that such a person should be persecuted until they recant/ are eradicated. This is not even the position that they would likely hold towards you. You saying that their wish not to marry would constitute bigotry and descrimination is hilarious.
Meus Renaissance
Member
Didn't they talk about this sort of stuff before getting married? And no is my answer to your other question. It's a naive expectation and one that will likely disappoint you in the end.
Meus Renaissance
Member
I would point out that you are the one qualifying devout Muslims with bigoted actions. I hold available the distinction between Muslims with bigoted practices and those who don't.
My mother obviously doesn't hold such bigoted practices, yet by your standard she would not be 'devout'. It should also be noted that I specifically target practices here not individuals, only you qualified it to the individual level.
So to correct your statements, I have no problem marrying a devout Muslim. I do have a problem marrying a bigoted Muslim. That you equate religious devotion with intolerance is your problem and of those sharing a similar mindset. Whether your beliefs thrive in the more accommodating social milieu in the future or goes extinct is entirely up to you.
When I mean your beliefs, I don't mean Islam in general since there will be individuals adapting. I mean your interpretations, which of course you believe are the correct ones as believers are so fond of doing.
I'm sure you yourself recognize a range on 'interpretations' that are so offensive that you yourself don't accept. You just have to realize that yours too needs to be added to that pile.
That's what I asked my mom when she told me about it, she just went "people show their true colors after marriage." Honestly I think she just jumped on the marriage without getting to know him more :/ Or maybe there might be something else going on, not sure.
OttomanScribe
Member
You define someone who does not wish to marry someone who has a radically different world view to themselves, as being a bigot. This is the focus of the discussion at hand.
Unable to support this idea, you goalpost shift. This is not a good way of discussion. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to marry someone with the same views as themselves, or even the same culture as themselves. In the context of a legal tradition which allows certain religious minorities their own social governance, there is a need for this to be mandated in order to guard individuals in terms of their rights.
You attempt to define your beliefs along the lines of concern for others, but your distaste does not appear to me to be merely towards 'devout' Muslims, your distaste is a consistent and cloying one, that wafts from your posts into the senses of the reader.
Safin is another name for the Prophet Muhammed.
al safin/ el safin means hidden/concealed. or so google seems to think.
OttomanScribe
Member
I think that would be an unfair expectation. Their right is to their own deen.
As to the other question, my wife and I did have some differences initially, on a few issues. But alhamdulillah they were resolved before we were married, by the will of God.
If I ever marry a non Muslim, I would do so accepting her choice of religion. Expecting someone to eventually convert after marriage will only lead to complications down the road.
Smiles and Cries
Member
Are you talking about painting figures specifically? There is certainly a long history of Muslim art, some of it, mainly the Persian tradition, being miniature painting. I am good friends with a few Muslim artists.
That said, I don't believe there is much wiggle room when it comes to drawing of figures that possess life/animation. If this is the only thing that you have a jihad with, then mash'Allah brother!
Have you spoken to a scholar about this issue? Maybe write in to Seekers Guidance? I can even give you the number/email of a respected artist, a convert, who is in my community if you like akhi
A major Scholar in Bangladesh told me pretty much the same. I have heard this many times from different sources mostly scholars in India. I understood it as the accepted view point. I have spoken to scholars about many things.
Yeah sometimes it is simpler to just do as you are told. But I cannot find true Sincerity in just doing that. Things get mixed up.
It is not my intention to paint and offend the Ummah as a whole. If it was I would rather not paint at all. But if I am cast out of the Ummah because of it then I have to try harder to understand where my failure is.
No matter the history behind it posted before their are many who feel there is no "wiggle room" I am just told you cannot do a thing no matter what the intention of your heart is. I just take it to the heart that I am being accused of something I had no intention of doing, with a very broad brush. Why do I resist? I will answer that with what I know about myself this deen is my last there will be no others. Pushed too far and I may as well become an atheist. So I must protect my deen with sincerity and certainty, I cannot just take something at face value if it is going to cause me to doubt myself later.
So since you brought up the "No Wiggle Room" aspect of my journey in Islam, I will have to share with you that painting is the very least I worry about trying to hold on to my faith.
I do not enjoy getting to a point in life where everything I do is guided by others. How can I stand on my Faith and protect it if it is only the belief and words of others and it does not live in me with Ikhlaas?
I understand you are not suppose to say bad things about other brothers so I will try to point out how I personally HAVE FAILED*.
*I think guidance is great for someone who is willing to submit to every word others has told him. I do not want to waste the time of brothers who are willing to teach me a thing if I am just going to turn around and dismiss what they have told me. I take how people guide me very seriously and when I run into those who take it lightly it hurts me. The worst of it is Guidance based on Fear or Cultural Traditions. If you guide me with fear I get to a point where I am no longer afraid and soon dismiss what you have told me as nonsense.
(Sidq: Truthfulness that permits neither falsehood nor hypocrisy)
So my failure in this is I need to submit with truth in my heart, learning true submission, I am still learning that aspect of being a Muslim. The unfortunate problem I have is I cannot find peace if I cannot endure something I an told to do then forgive me Ummah I must turn to Allah(SWT) for Respite.
In India while staying at a Masjid near a dried river bed (rainy season was still a month away) the brothers I travelled with saw some wild pigs eating the trash that was thrown over the back wall near the dried river bed. The elder who was with me and leading us wanted to reinforce in us his dislike for these Pigs. So he wanted to teach me to reject them, stone them if I felt the need.
So I was told this story that Pigs were created to eat the wastes and trash on Noah's Ark thus being unclean and forbidden to us. So I looked again at that thing eating the trash and told him, that Pig is a better Muslim by definition than I am.
It is submitting to what it was created to do. So why should I hate it? I am told I should not eat it and I do not but why must I hate it for being what it was created to do?
Tell me to hate a dog and because of my experience with them I never cared for them much but I don't remember Pigs causing me fear.
Thus the problem with me. I cannot just accept guidance and teachings that do not feel logical based on what the intention, purpose, or wisdom was for a thing.
So if I felt it was a blessing from Allah (SWT) to find peace in painting, a place I could go when I felt physical pain... But I am told become a teacher instead if you cannot stop yourself from painting figures, then I just feel like I am not being what I was created to be.
You cannot just remove the purpose of a thing on a whim, you must have a sincerity and truth behind each action or your deen becomes empty. I see it as a greater sin if I have made myself a slave to everyone else's guidance but ignore Allah's (SWT). Talk about making idols. So I was hit with many reasons why following orders was important and a blessing that had rewards. Yet at the same time I found that Elders surrounding me just looked like a lot of fat cats taking advantage of those who submitted to their every whim. Maybe it was also a culture shock of seeing men being submissive to other men. I was shocked that some Indian brother I just met seem to have this huge crush on me and was being ultra nice to me, serving me food or getting me things I needed. (It had more to do with the teachings of getting more rewards from Allah(SWT) by doing these things) Then you had the older elders who did not speak english but would show me brotherly love by holding my hand and not letting it go for an awkward amount of time. (Cultural / Rewards)
So rewards became a great thing. I had to learn how to gain more rewards and acceptance. An example is getting a non-believer to say the Shahada by any means even if you had to trick them or they did not even know what they were saying, Why? REWARDS!
It was justified by telling me if someone says it even if they go to Hell after a time because they have had said it they can get out of Hell after a period of time has passed. I have to admit I became kinda obsessed with rewards. The rewards of having prayed your salats in so many different masjids so far away from home brother would not stop telling me what I was getting. I was HYPED! Oh and praying in Makkah and Medina oh my the rewards times thousands! So I have to admit I was losing some focus.
I remember pestering the Scholars that I met with many questions and the one I came back to the most was what was the Rewards for the Sisters? What was in it for my Wife?
Because they kept telling me about how important getting married soon was. I became less reward focused when I found there was not much hype for sister's rewards. Mostly none of the brothers knew and most of the Scholars I met seemed to need to think hard about it.
You have to understand being told these awesome stories daily about rewards and then asking simply what do the sisters get? I am just a clueless newbie after all. Getting rewarded with my own personal Paradise whose size can be 10x the size of Earth for the lowest among us. The more good deeds you do the bigger that place gets and the closer to Allah it becomes. So I kept asking what about this wife you guys keep telling me to get? I have to respect these sisters for they truly love Allah(SWT)
Its not like I ever saw a sister to ask her what her rewards would be like. Not that I was made to believe that even talking to one was possible unless you sat with her father or brother with the intention of marriage.
The other new thing I learned beyond reward was the 4 lane Highway concept of Schools of Law in Islam. To say the least, I was reluctant to choose my lane. Recruitment was subtle but evident. I never did choose.
So I had to keep reminding myself why I reverted in the first place which is:
How Beautiful is Islam? It is clear, logical, and easy! Most of all it is Haq!
Then in my travels I was told the Deen is hard and complex and you are tested.
So I will list a few to show that my issue with painting is easy but these broke me
TESTED 1 = I got to a point where I felt serious uneasiness for entering my bathroom paranoid of what lived in the bathrooms. That you did not speak in the bathroom. Even deep fear and panic late at night. From all these stories the brothers would tell. I felt wow there needs to be a Hollywood horror movie about these creatures because they are disturbing me. Then came the brother that told me sleeping on my stomach means I am anally raped by these creatures at night. So I learned that fine line between Cultural Superstition and Deen.
TESTED 2 = I feared Urine the most! This was MAJOR, because of my Sickle Cell Anemia and the drinking of lots of water to try and prevent painful episodes and the many times I had a Urinary catheterization done leaving me with a condition of sometimes leaking easily breaking my wudu often during Prayers. (when I tried to get guidance about this problem I was told to try feminine pads or depends diapers) Not only that it was annoying and broke my wudu often but the constant stories of what would happen to you in the grave because of urine from elders and brother. So just like those invisible creatures that live in my bathroom, fear of urine became a nightmare.
TESTED 3 = Due to many health issue, I have had this problem of passing out while walking or standing up. I could be walking outside to go to the store and start seeing my vision go black and my brain would just feel heavy and I would hit the floor out. So this finally happened during Fajr prayer at the masjid. It was embarrassing as always but at the masjid it was worst and although most of the brothers were understanding. Others took having their Salat messed up very personal. Some even told me I should stay home. I felt really bad. It became a constant thing if they were going to visit a masjid in a nearby city that brother would just say are you sure you want to go with us? I don't want you to faint on us again.
TESTED 4 = Tablighi Jamaat I really should not have agreed to go on this trip but I could not say no to the Sheikh when he told me he wanted me to go. That's why I ended up in India and Bangladesh - I would not have done it but before going to India we would stop in Makkah for Umrah after just 4 months of being a new Muslim. But the challenges ahead really tested me. I was not really for a 4 month Jamaat in India.
At the end of two months when I refused guidance to go to Pakistan next by an elder, I continued to with some brothers to Bangladesh instead but even there the only thing keeping me sane was the help of a brother helping me to memorize the minor Surahs I was up to 14 learned when I got too sick and took the next plane back home early. The hardest regret was that I could not finish to 4 months.
I still remember the stories that were told that brothers who went against the elders advice during the Jamaat, disappeared or went insane. (I got really tired of this brother trying to scare me into submission it felt like an insult) I was being told this often because my leader was strict he was an older guy and was a painter too. So I hung out with an artist like myself for months but his views were very hard for me to follow. I was not being a good at following the steps of the Sahabah. I learned from him but it was difficult he was strict with everyone and himself I guess it came from converting in Art School then stopping for a few years before he to up practicing Islam again so he did many many extra Salats to make up for the times he stopped praying. I went to his Studio before that trip he showed me his art. His art was paintings of Arabic letters in calligraphy style. I am sure like me his are was very different in Art school before Islam. Be he was the one to tell me I should become a teacher, hate that pig near the river bed, and all the horror stories of not following orders of elders. The major one was if I really wanted to learn Islam go to Pakistan next the the months remaining.
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So yup painting is something I could just give up doing even though it is not clear enough in me why I am giving it up. I do not have the means to paint often anyway art supplies are very expensive so its not something that comes easy and I have been going blind slowly for years now due to my illness. SO WHY NOT JUST GIVE IT UP? It is more about what is in my heart, the same heart that took me from Christianity to find the Beauty of Islam... The Struggle Muslims face being hated in these times, these challenges and my intention to do the right thing and being pushed far enough until it just broke me. I just stopped going to the Masjid because I was being considered someone who went to Jamaat so the teachings I learned I was responsible to teach and travel, so then I found I could not even pray out of heavy guilt that I failed these brothers.
I learned that am not a very submissive person. I like to think for myself, I like to be in control of myself or I feel lost. I cannot control the pain of Sickle Cell so my body is not an ally to me. So having my mind blown into a breaking point is not easy to overcome.
So with my luck akhi, you would just give me the same contact info of the same people I have failed to obey.
I cannot Obey. Because of my history with Christian cults who wanted to live as disciples or Christ. I must not follow down that same path because I learned during Jamaat I was learning to live a mirror image of what I left behind and it freaked me out. I was visiting brothers and sitting with them and telling them why they should go in pray at the Masjid. I felt like a Jehovah Witness at times. Dawah is good but not when I became so reward focused that my deeds seem lacking of really caring for others.
So in learning the Traditions and steps of the Sahabah none of it would have been difficult if I did not feel pushed by others just for the sake of rewards and deeds that bring back many memories of those who just wanted me to stop my questioning, stop my thinking just follow Jesus. I was told reading the Qu'ran so much as I was doing and doing Dhikr using beads so much would cause me to go crazy. That people can go insane from doing these. So here I am being discouraged from doing Dhikr and memorizing Surahs.
What caused the most damage was being hammered about how to love the Prophet (PBUH). This caused damage because I do not think my elders knew what made me fall in love with Islam in the first place. So when I was told stories about Adam seeing a dream or vision of some Arch/Gateway with the Prophet's Name in Paradise and/or how exalted he was I began to freak out by the awe I saw in the faces being told this story. I got angry and had to go for a walk. I did not need another Lord Jesus!
Please do not teach me how to love the Prophet(PBUH) so much that he becomes the gateway for me, it freaked me out. I can love The Last Messenger, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) But please don't try package him and sell me him when I came from a background who has no belief in Tawheed = Monotheism.
I fell in love with Islam because of the ONEness.
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
There is no God except ALLAH; Muhammad is the Messenger of ALLAH.
The first part of the Kalima was so clear to me.
They ask you - WHO IS ALLAH?
Say: He is Allah, He is One; The Self-Sufficient,
The Eternal God; He begets not,
nor was He begotten;
There is none equal to Him.
[The Holy Qur'an, Surah 112:1-4]
but I did not know the second part was not as simple and it involved a lot of complex themes.
Ilm, Yaqeen, Ikhlaas, Sidq, Mahabbah, Inqiad, Qubool <-- these were my tests during my travel. I learned the meanings of each and more but it still became hard to find my balance the more I learned.
To believe and understand, Islam is submission to the Will of Allah. It is the only religion preached by all the prophets and messengers; worship Allah alone and submit to Him alone. That was what I fell in love with then the traditions and the how to do this was not as simple. Those little dudes that live in my bathroom came along for the ride.
I have a major problem but it is not with Islam as a Faith or Deen. It is with cultural beliefs and traditions that are so deep that we lose sight of our Truth and Good Intentions. If I cannot have Ikhlaas (Sincerity) Yahqeen (Certainty) without having to question or doubt those who are teaching me I have to admit I have failed badly.
Inqiad: Submission to its rightful requirements, which are the duties that must be performed with sincerity to Allah (alone) seeking only Allah's pleasure.
I learned a lot about myself. In everything I do I try very hard even when my body is challenged I still try with sincerity to do as much as I can. So my paintings are the same way to give it up I need a reason as sincere and true as I have for having done it. Not just on someone's whim of what is acceptable without knowing the intentions of my heart. Is my deen about not offending the sensibilities of others?
My Deen is without Fear.
My Deen without the ambitions and desire for Rewards.
My Deen is seeking only Allah's pleasure.
I ask you, how am I seeking Allah's pleasure if I am focused only on what rewards he has for me and the fear of punishment?
I knew I would fail and I was warned many times I would be gone if I pushed so hard as a new convert, knowing that what do you think I asked for in my first prayer upon seeing the Qibla for the first time?
What would you ask for?
The Answer to that prayer is yet to come. Until then...
I ask Allah(SWT) for Respite.
does nobody read articles if they are of great length?
http://www.questionsonislam.com/que...ed-information-about-pictures-and-photographs
http://www.questionsonislam.com/que...ed-information-about-pictures-and-photographs
OttomanScribe
Member
I am on my phone so I find it difficult to reply in full brother, but I cannot help but feel that you missed my point. Art itself is not forbidden, but what, to my knowledge is, is the representation specifically of figures of living human beings and animals.
Hence I asked you if you feel that the only form that your art can take is that of the representation of figures?
The person I was going to refer to you is a few convert artists that I know. As I imagine they may have had the same jihad as you.
As to despising pigs... What? That has never been a scholarly position I am familiar with. Additionally, while the Tablighi are numerous, they are not and have never been the guardians of the ijma of the community.
Why do you feel that this is such a lynchpin issue for you? In terms of your faith I mean. Surely doing something which may be sinful (representing figures) is by far a superior cause of action to leaving the religion in entirety?
You seem to be putting things upon me that I was not advising or saying. Indeed your post is almost a conversation with people who are absent. Or even an internal dialogue. In this sense I find it hard to respond
Hence I asked you if you feel that the only form that your art can take is that of the representation of figures?
The person I was going to refer to you is a few convert artists that I know. As I imagine they may have had the same jihad as you.
As to despising pigs... What? That has never been a scholarly position I am familiar with. Additionally, while the Tablighi are numerous, they are not and have never been the guardians of the ijma of the community.
Why do you feel that this is such a lynchpin issue for you? In terms of your faith I mean. Surely doing something which may be sinful (representing figures) is by far a superior cause of action to leaving the religion in entirety?
You seem to be putting things upon me that I was not advising or saying. Indeed your post is almost a conversation with people who are absent. Or even an internal dialogue. In this sense I find it hard to respond
Smiles and Cries the people you met are very familiar to people I've met...lol shockingly close...
Your post is just a big dumping of emotion and thoughts...I don't know where to start if one was to try and give guidance.
The pig thing is certainly not surprising...people general do tend to hold irrational hate for things wthout know why...
I read it...and yes this is what I've come to understand. I have to say I'm a bit bias though I have been lucky enough to see such works with my own eyes and in person thus have taken them in and on top of that I have a great appreciation of art and expression in various forms.
Your post is just a big dumping of emotion and thoughts...I don't know where to start if one was to try and give guidance.
The pig thing is certainly not surprising...people general do tend to hold irrational hate for things wthout know why...
does nobody read articles if they are of great length?
http://www.questionsonislam.com/que...ed-information-about-pictures-and-photographs
I read it...and yes this is what I've come to understand. I have to say I'm a bit bias though I have been lucky enough to see such works with my own eyes and in person thus have taken them in and on top of that I have a great appreciation of art and expression in various forms.
Darackutny
Junior Member
I haven't ever really met a Tablighi that I would consider to be a "scholar". Memorising a couple of traditions, and reciting them can be impressive, but that is as good as it gets with most of them.
Bro S&C, if the person that told you that the narration about Mohammad's (saw) name being written in heaven/upon the throne returned to his source, then he probably wouldn't have narrated this tradition because it is a fabrication.
Notice the following:
"When Adam committed the sin that he committed, he looked upon the throne, and said: I ask you by Mohammed to forgive me! Allah then asked: Which Mohammed? He (Adam) replied: When you created me, I looked up towards your throne and found upon it: La ilaha ila Allah, Mohammed rasool Allah, so I knew that there is nobody in that great of a status as him, for you have put his name next to yours. Allah then said: O' Adam, he is the last prophet from your descendants, and his people are the last of your descendants, and if it weren't for him, I wouldn't have created you."
The narration is in Al-Mu'jam Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani (#6690) and Mustadrak Al-Hakim (#4194).
Al-Thahabi, said in his abridgement of the Mustadrak, "This narration is a fabrication, for Abdulrahman (a narrator), is weak, and I do not known of Abdullah bin Muslim Al-Fihry."
The narration was also weakened by Al-Bayhaqi and Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, due to the weakness of the narrators.
Ibn Hibban, an early hadithist said about Al-Fihri, "He is a liar. Accused of fabricating hadiths about Laith, Malik, and Ibn Luhai'a, and it is forbidden to narrate his hadiths, and he narrated a fake document from Ibn Hidba."
Al-Hakim, the person the compiler of Al-Mustadrak, also accused Abdulrahman bin Zaid bin Aslam of narrating fabrications in his book Al-Madkhal.
So, in conclusion, I say that this narration is a fabrication, and cannot be accepted, for this is the opinion of the early hadithists and compilers of hadith, who know better than Tableeghi scholars.
What has worked for me, when faced with strange hadiths, is to ask for the source. The laymen will fumble. While those with objectivity will return to produce their sources. It is good to learn early on that not everything that has been narrated is authentic to the Prophet, and that taking a grain of salt is best, until one produces a source at least.
Bro S&C, if the person that told you that the narration about Mohammad's (saw) name being written in heaven/upon the throne returned to his source, then he probably wouldn't have narrated this tradition because it is a fabrication.
Notice the following:
"When Adam committed the sin that he committed, he looked upon the throne, and said: I ask you by Mohammed to forgive me! Allah then asked: Which Mohammed? He (Adam) replied: When you created me, I looked up towards your throne and found upon it: La ilaha ila Allah, Mohammed rasool Allah, so I knew that there is nobody in that great of a status as him, for you have put his name next to yours. Allah then said: O' Adam, he is the last prophet from your descendants, and his people are the last of your descendants, and if it weren't for him, I wouldn't have created you."
The narration is in Al-Mu'jam Al-Awsat by Al-Tabarani (#6690) and Mustadrak Al-Hakim (#4194).
Al-Thahabi, said in his abridgement of the Mustadrak, "This narration is a fabrication, for Abdulrahman (a narrator), is weak, and I do not known of Abdullah bin Muslim Al-Fihry."
The narration was also weakened by Al-Bayhaqi and Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, due to the weakness of the narrators.
Ibn Hibban, an early hadithist said about Al-Fihri, "He is a liar. Accused of fabricating hadiths about Laith, Malik, and Ibn Luhai'a, and it is forbidden to narrate his hadiths, and he narrated a fake document from Ibn Hidba."
Al-Hakim, the person the compiler of Al-Mustadrak, also accused Abdulrahman bin Zaid bin Aslam of narrating fabrications in his book Al-Madkhal.
So, in conclusion, I say that this narration is a fabrication, and cannot be accepted, for this is the opinion of the early hadithists and compilers of hadith, who know better than Tableeghi scholars.
What has worked for me, when faced with strange hadiths, is to ask for the source. The laymen will fumble. While those with objectivity will return to produce their sources. It is good to learn early on that not everything that has been narrated is authentic to the Prophet, and that taking a grain of salt is best, until one produces a source at least.
crazy monkey
Banned
So i guess safin means hidden? Why would that name would be used ? lol I wish some one with arabic knowledge would answer. My local mosque maulana did not know either. online I can find the two things that you mentioned. There must be some history or context as to why he was named such. I wanted him to name after prophet so I named him but if there was a meaning behind it or some story it would have been much better.
You're the one shifting the discussion away from religious tenets.
This is not about individual choice as you seem to want to change the discussion into, it's the doctrinal basis that we're discussing here, namely the prohibition of Islamic women marrying non-muslims. I even underlined and put it in bold. The very post I responded to beginning this line of discussion is in direct reference to the doctrinal nonsense you posted justifying bigotry, so you are, on an evidential basis, the one veering the discussion away to 'choice'.
That tenet and anyone holding that tenet is a bigot. If a persons believes that as a matter of religious doctrine that Islamic women should not marry non-Muslims then they are a bigot, and yes, if a person chooses not to marry someone on the basis of that doctrine then they are bigoted. People can choose all they want based on desires but to follow a bigoted doctrine solely because it is doctrine makes that person a bigot.
If we changed the word non-Muslim to Black or Chinese, then the bigotry would be readily apparent.
You've weasel-worded 'devout' to qualify and cover for the practice of these atrocious beliefs as being a matter of true or correct faith. You introduced that qualifier and have stuck with it this far, defending bigoted actions as being those of 'devout' believers.
I'll ask you directly then, my mother married a Christian. Is she a devout Muslim? Do devout Muslim women marry non-Muslims?
If you truly believe that devotion is Islam is and should be based on such bigotry and discrimination, then people of like-minded nature only serve to undermine and potentially doom your religion. If you do not integrate into society then you can only become isolated and swept aside.
I'll also point out that your repeated attempts to quantify why and categorize my assaults on your beliefs only serve to undermine your position. I've assailed religious opinions of every stripe and seeing that this is an Islamic thread, it's on Islam and seeing that the topic at hand turned to something of personal interest, I jumped in.
The topic is not about your suspicions of me, why I am assailing your position, or your baseless accusations. If it's too much for you to stay on topic then by all means scamper away.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Sorry if I missed this but:
Do you then view Muslims as bigots? I mean, let's just say you just meet a person that you have not known before. Then, five minutes later, he or she introduced him or herself as a Muslim. Does your mind automatically qualifies him or her as bigots?
A simple yes or no will do.