I personally took no pleasure in seeing Sandor dying the way he did, nor some of the events on the wall, but were they that shocking? On the other hand, Lord Tywin's fate at hands of Tyrion was hardly something to dislike - and not really particularly shocking, he was long overdue for the curse of the hand anyway. Or are you referring to Cat's ressurection at the end? For me that one left a bad taste only After I read through book 4 and learned the consequences of it...
Or is there some other thing I'm forgetting.
I do agree Book 3 is the best - I breezed through 4 faster then any of the books - but there's too much things that were postponed for 5 due to the whole splitting volumes by character locations, so 4 turned out more of a cliffhanger then anything
At any rate, I agree with the whole breaking conventions thing being great - it was a detriment during first book when reader is not familiar enough with world or its characters, but once you get farther, it really works better and better.
It's up in the air whether he's actually dead or not. Some say that the priest meant by "dying" he meant being reborn into a servant of the seven or some religious stuff like that. People say it'll eventually set up the Seven Star Sandor to fight the Undead Gregor
Right, coming off the fourth book I almost stopped thinking about it.
To be fair the ominous feeling was there all around, we sort of 'knew' Robb was headed for demise at hands of Stannis's curse, but I agree that that part was a shocker for the sheer violence of it. I was still most upset as for what they did to Cat though, even in the aftermath...
Jenga said:
It's up in the air whether he's actually dead or not. Some say that the priest meant by "dying" he meant being reborn into a servant of the seven or some religious stuff like that. People say it'll eventually set up the Seven Star Sandor to fight the Undead Gregor
but at the same time sounds predictable, and a bit contrived, not something that I've found often in Martin's work so far. Mind you we don't know yet just how much of Gregor really is in that thing Qyburn has been growing - body seems given, but still.
bengraven said:
A soap opera like fantasy series lite on fantasy that are bland in the beginning but get a little more addictive and conventional as you go along?
The begining I'll give you(it really has the same problem as Silmarillion - you're thrown into a world with so much history and names and places, it tends to be disorienting and until you know it better, on the slow side...), but there's nothing conventional about this series.
And magic is never more visible then in Tolkien's world - which I always thought had the perfect balance of it.
I just started reading the 4th book. I'm enjoying it so far but not as much as i enjoyed the former books. What's up with this splitting the book into characters of a certain location thing?
I really like how the author likes to pick up lose ends much later on.
For example at the end of book three
when Lysa admits having murdered her husband before she herself dies
.
The series is really fun but i couldn't quite say that it is the best fantasy series i've ever read.
I can't quite explain why it isn't. Maybe i can grasp it after i am done with this book.
The first time i tried reading the first book i couldn't even stand the first chapter, the second time i got really hooked. Good thing i gave it a second chance!
The begining I'll give you(it really has the same problem as Silmarillion - you're thrown into a world with so much history and names and places, it tends to be disorienting and until you know it better, on the slow side...), but there's nothing conventional about this series.
Let's not turn people off here. This is way easier to get into than the Silmarillion. It's confusing, but not to the extent of The "I need to turn back to the index for the fifteenth time ON THIS PAGE to figure out who this person is" Silmarillion.
I love The Silmarillion, btw, and I enjoy ASoIaF. I just don't want people to ignore the series thinking that it's going to be as difficult to get into as The Silmarillion.
I was sucked in to SOIAF from Chapter 1 of Book 1. It's slow paced, but one of my favorite things about it is the deliberate obfuscation by Martin of what exactly is going on. He only paints part of the picture and you have to fill in the rest through critical reading and imagination.
Good God, I read over 500 pages of A Clash of Kings yesterday and the day before, finished it this morning. I can't stop, I already have A Storm of Swords ready to go right now. This shit is amazing.
wtf at undead-cat hanging brienne? okay i understand she's pissed, but barely gave her a chance to explain anything! she had jaime's sword and tyrions squire, sure, but man... so cold hearted... and so annoying!
wtf is gonna happen with arya? what a silly place to leave us hanging, she wakes up blind! question: is the temple place she's at the place where they train those legendary assassins?
wtf at cersei... i wonder if ser kevan was in on it all along to take back kings landing.. although he did say he was returning to castle rock for his own reasons :S
wtf @ the author, i think he likes to make EVERY single likable character go through as much pain and agony as possible, with absolutely no chance to shine... it's just like "oh you like this character? well im gonna drag him/her through the dirt then kill him/her off in the end lulz"
GRR!!!
i like how he ends the book with a to be continued, and explains how he had written so much that he couldn't have published it all then and there... then goes on to say the next half will be out "next year" aka 2006... 3 years later... liar!!!
Glad you stuck with it, man. As an added bonus, you don't have to worry about what to read next for a few books, as you'll definitely want to stick with ASoIaF through at least first three books in the series. The fourth book is solid but you can approach it without the same urgency.
it's amazing it was just like a switch at page 50 when they were deciding if they wanted to take the post of the king's hand and it discussed the politics of it and then BAM i was hooked right from there.
i haven't read these books in years, but i was very impressed by them. haven't read feast for crows yet, but i think i'm gonna wait till they're all finished before that. don't want to be left wanting in case of a suspected heart attack.
i remember "touch of a smile" like 50 times in the first book. and lots of descriptions for clothes-at least 300 pages of them spanning all the books. but then there's an incestual AND menstrual sex at the same time scene, so it all balances out.
This book series treats me like a 10 dollor whore :-( It hits me, and hurts me but I keep coming back. I can remember atleast 3 times when something happened in the book that made me soo upset I threw my book across the room. Then I picked it back up and kept reading >.< Truly a awesome book series ^_^
wtf at undead-cat hanging brienne? okay i understand she's pissed, but barely gave her a chance to explain anything! she had jaime's sword and tyrions squire, sure, but man... so cold hearted... and so annoying!
The way that scene is written, it seems like Martin may try to 'unkill' Brienne. I actually hope that doesn't happen, since Martin has had more fake deaths than real deaths of main characters (Bran, Rickon, Arya, the Hound, probably Davos) and Brienne's story really wasn't going anywhere.
wtf is gonna happen with arya? what a silly place to leave us hanging, she wakes up blind! question: is the temple place she's at the place where they train those legendary assassins?
Yes. The Kindly Man refers to their group as 'the Faceless Men of Braavos' in the text. I believe Martin said that only half of what he had intended for Arya was in Feast and the other half will be in Dance.
wtf @ the author, i think he likes to make EVERY single likable character go through as much pain and agony as possible, with absolutely no chance to shine... it's just like "oh you like this character? well im gonna drag him/her through the dirt then kill him/her off in the end lulz"
When GRRM signs the first book, he inscribes the Stark words: Winter Is Coming. Throughout the book, we see that everyone has to face hardship, even the groups that seemed like the big winners, the Lannisters and Tyrells. I think this is somewhat necessary because Westeros needs to be 'softened up' so that when Dany comes out of the Free Cities with her dragons, the people will be ready to fall in behind her and face the war at the Wall.
Actually, take a look at what has happened to the Great Houses since the war to overthrow the Targaryens:
Unaligned?
Greyjoy: Main leader dead, leadership has passed to crazy dude
Anti-Targaryen
Stark: All heirs dead or missing, power destroyed
Baratheon: Robert & Renley dead, Stannis at the Wall
Arryn: Only heir is sickly and stupid, ready to be taken over
Lannister: Tywin dead, Tyrion exiled, Jaime sworn to the Kings' Guard, in-fighting between Kevan and Cersei
Tully: Leaders dead, captured or fled, power destroyed
Pro-Targaryen
Tyrell: Near full power and still have main leaders
Martell: Full power and still have main leaders
Ummmm....I just got to a certain part in "A Storm of Swords"....
Do not read past this PD or anyone wanting to reading the series...
The death of Robb and Catelyn...oh man...oh man....I was in shock...Arya was so close...fuck...fuck fuck fuck...this series is brutal. I was literally in shock when I read how Robb was being shot down, It honestly wasn't registering to me that the Frey's were doing this. It was plainly obvious that this was a big trap but the way it quickly turned from celebration to slaying Robb and his mother. Also how Catelyn responds when the soldiers pull her hair (to slice her throat) she doesn't understand, she actually thinks they're going to cut her hair (Says not to cut mess up her hair that Ned liked it...and starts laughing, her psyche finally broken). I was seriously taken aback at all of it....
Malazan, son. Erikson's fantasy series is, in my opinion, the best there is. Completely destroys the overly-used conventions and formula seen even in the best of the genre. His prose gets better with every book, the scope and ambition of his work is amazing and he's probably the only fantasy author who can write such massive novels at a consistent yearly rate.
Why is it when George Martin and his works are mentioned in any discussion, someone brings up Erikson? I've read Gardens of the Moon and DHG; neither of these books are even in the same stratosphere as the novels in Song of Ice and Fire series, in my opinion. Comparing these two series and these two authors only serves to criminally inflate the quality of Erikson's work while depreciating that of GRRM.
Why is it when George Martin and his works are mentioned in any discussion, someone brings up Erikson? I've read Gardens of the Moon and DHG; neither of these books are even in the same stratosphere as the novels in Song of Ice and Fire series, in my opinion. Comparing these two series and these two authors only serves to criminally inflate the quality of Erikson's work while depreciating that of GRRM.
My main problem with Erikson is that the man seems to have so many different ideas (most of them good mind you) that he seems to spill them out as fast as a he can. I'm not a native English speaker (though I'm pretty sure I've read more English books than the majority of the natives ), and I simply couldn't understand half of what was going on because of how much information there was per page.
I had the same problem with the Wheel of Time books, but that was one if not the first Fantasy book series I ever read in English so that was different. I'm reading the 11 WoT books right now in memory of Jordan (RIP) and they are actually quite easy except for the various invented words and the rather staggering number of characters. I tried reading Erikson again and I simply can't.
Sword of Truth is high fantasy that gets worse and worse as you go along, and is hilariously badly written and widely ridiculed. Dunno who put you wrong, but ASOIAF is in a whole different league.
I've read those Goodkind books, friend, and I know fist-hand about the scars you carry. Fortunately, I read those Sword of Truth books only after having finished Martin's first three novels in the Song of Ice and Fire series, so the former didn't have a chance to ruin the latter, in my case.
Do not -- I repeat, DO NOT -- let that experience deter you from giving A Game of Thrones a fair shot.
Blimblim said:
My main problem with Erikson is that the man seems to have so many different ideas (most of them good mind you) that he seems to spill them out as fast as a he can. I'm not a native English speaker (though I'm pretty sure I've read more English books than the majority of the natives ), and I simply couldn't understand half of what was going on because of how much information there was per page.
I had the same problem with the Wheel of Time books, but that was one if not the first Fantasy book series I ever read in English so that was different. I'm reading the 11 WoT books right now in memory of Jordan (RIP) and they are actually quite easy except for the various invented words and the rather staggering number of characters. I tried reading Erikson again and I simply can't.
You and virtually everyone else. Whenever someone praises Erikson's novels, I get this image of a person standing in awe in front of an abstract, jumbled piece of art, pointing out emphatically at the brilliance of its design and patterns, while everyone else sees it as just colorful scribble.
My main problem with Erikson is that the man seems to have so many different ideas (most of them good mind you) that he seems to spill them out as fast as a he can. I'm not a native English speaker (though I'm pretty sure I've read more English books than the majority of the natives ), and I simply couldn't understand half of what was going on because of how much information there was per page.
I was replying to someone who asked whether there was any other great fantasy titles out there besides Song of Ice and Fire. When you have the guys behind Hercules and Xena making a TV series based on the Sword of Truth series of all things, that's a fair question in my opinion.
NintendosBooger said:
You and virtually everyone else. Whenever someone praises Erikson's novels, I get this image of a person standing in awe in front of an abstract, jumbled piece of art, pointing out emphatically at the brilliance of its design and patterns, while everyone else sees it as just colorful scribble.
This is nonsense. I really disliked the first book when I began reading the series. I tried getting through it several times, and I have to say, it's still probably one of the most alienating experiences you'll see in the genre. Erikson decided to upturn the conventions from the start and go with a story that picked up halfway through a plotline. However, what he didn't consider was that all the things that would convince a reader to go along with the ride were missing. Ganoes Paran was weak to start with, you hardly understood the significance of what Onearm's Host were going through, the Bridgeburners weren't as interesting as they were meant to be, and the list goes on.
Deadhouse Gates, meanwhile, had a great self-contained story which relied little on the previous novel, had a wider range of more interesting characters and defined plot threads, and an amazing and deeply intriguing background in which it all took place. Mostly, I just think the characters - Kalam, Fiddler, Aspalar, Crokus, Duiker, Mappo, Icarium, Baudin, Felisin, Heboric, etc. - felt more alive, interesting and understandable than what was seen in Gardens of the Moon. And Erikson's writing got more tighter and polished. Each novel from there gets better for me - and Gardens of the Moon is definitely the weakest link in the series.
Uncle said:
It was the resurrecting of every fucking character that dies which really killed the series for me.
Duiker, Toc the Younger, and Ganoes are probably the only ones that get resurrected in the literal sense. Coltaine is reborn, and from what we saw of the Bridgeburners in The Bonehunters, they might be Ascendant but it's nowhere near the level of Shadowthrone and Cotillion. Furthermore, Lostara Yil was pulled out of that fire - not resurrected - by Cotillion, and Rhulad is also a very complicated case as well.
I'd say plenty of people have died and stayed dead, and guys like Whiskeyjack, Dujek, Shield Anvil, Trull Sengar, Heboric, Kulp, Bult, Felisin, Brys and Hull come to mind.
I think he might have over-saturated things, but I doubt it's gone so far as to "kill" the series.
Damn, that's good. For a time there you could've thought that the twelfth Wheel of Time novel would beat this to the publisher. :/ I've read all the sample chapters so far and it'll be great to sink my teeth into this after exams this year.
The way that scene is written, it seems like Martin may try to 'unkill' Brienne. I actually hope that doesn't happen, since Martin has had more fake deaths than real deaths of main characters (Bran, Rickon, Arya, the Hound, probably Davos) and Brienne's story really wasn't going anywhere.
It was a classic cliffhanger, there's three people in that scene getting hanged, and if I had to take bets who survives, I'd pick Pod. That said, I disagree about fake deaths - Bran and Rickon deception hints were all over the place, and unlike say, Cat, I never even had an impression they were dead at all. And the only thing we know about Davos was what King's Landing has been Told - there was no story showing us he was ever in life predicament, so it's hard to call it a fake death yet. It's kinda like calling Theon a fake death, when we scarcely have seen anything of his whereabouts.
And has there been a confirmation of Hound being alive, or is that just people wishful thinking?
YakiSOBA said:
wtf at cersei... i wonder if ser kevan was in on it all along to take back kings landing.. although he did say he was returning to castle rock for his own reasons :S
Cersei is not falling from grace just yet. I'm 99% sure that the "younger and more beautiful queen" from the prophecy is Danereys, not Margary (IIRC Cersei is not the only one who thinks herself more beautiful then Margary, among other things). That said, she has got to be the most annoying character of the entire series, even Joffrey looked good next to his mom.
wtf @ the author, i think he likes to make EVERY single likable character go through as much pain and agony as possible, with absolutely no chance to shine... it's just like "oh you like this character? well im gonna drag him/her through the dirt then kill him/her off in the end lulz"
And the only thing we know about Davos was what King's Landing has been Told - there was no story showing us he was ever in life predicament, so it's hard to call it a fake death yet.
Well, if he is dead, I hope his death is at least fleshed out in the next book. I might be alone on this, but I quite liked Davos as a character, even if his overarching affect on the storyline could appear dubious.
Fafalada said:
I don't think there's a bias - the unlikables seem to get same treatment.
It doesn't really matter in what form they are "alive" now or if they didn't die in the first place. It's pretty much the same within the context of the story. The series has a huge cast cast of characters and way, way too many of those seem to be just some sort of weird deus ex machinas that might or might not be relevant to the story. The
Bridgeburner thing
was probably the last straw for me. Haven't read the series since, even though I have the next one (Midnight Tides) in my bookshelf.
It doesn't really matter in what form they are "alive" now or if they didn't die in the first place. It's pretty much the same within the context of the story. The series has a huge cast cast of characters and way, way too many of those seem to be just some sort of weird deus ex machinas that might or might not be relevant to the story. The
Bridgeburner thing
was probably the last straw for me. Haven't read the series since, even though I have the next one (Midnight Tides) in my bookshelf.
Really? Out of all them, that one was probably the least surprising to me since it was hinted at from the beginning of the second book. Midnight Tides, Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale are great; no more resurrections - although there will be close calls and surprising revelations about certain characters - and people you like will die, I promise.
I don't like that I seemingly have to reread the series with each new book I am wondering about whether or not I should just wait the several years for the series to finish or keep reading as they come out... but I love them so much I'll probably just keep rereading them
5 books into Goodkind, I'm just not digging it anymore (if there was ever a reason to read them beyond the fact that the girlfriend is obsessed with them and I was scoring points).
You've just convinced me not to read Song of Fire and Ice.
It doesn't really matter in what form they are "alive" now or if they didn't die in the first place. It's pretty much the same within the context of the story. The series has a huge cast cast of characters and way, way too many of those seem to be just some sort of weird deus ex machinas that might or might not be relevant to the story. The
Bridgeburner thing
was probably the last straw for me. Haven't read the series since, even though I have the next one (Midnight Tides) in my bookshelf.
5 books into Goodkind, I'm just not digging it anymore (if there was ever a reason to read them beyond the fact that the girlfriend is obsessed with them and I was scoring points).
You've just convinced me not to read Song of Fire and Ice.
Please don't overlook Martin's book as a result of Goodkind. I've read both, and the Sword of Truth series is your regular shallow high-fantasy series with unnecessary NC-17 scenes injected in the story solely for shock value purposes. I dropped Goodkind after the third book, and only wish I abandoned the series sooner.
I have to say, Arya is my most favorite perspective out of the lot.
Man, shes so young and has seen so much, traveled so far and has to don different persona to fit in with each environment. Then shes asked to shed it all? Even her real self? It was so sad when she was asked to get rid of all her possessions and starts to cry when she gets to Needle.
The one thing about this series is that you, as a reader,
want the original children to come back together, to be comforted by each other. Its heartbreaking in that regard especially since Robb really does die and how they defamed his body. I can't wait till vengeance rains down on the Frey's and Bolton's company by whats left of the Starks
Please don't overlook Martin's book as a result of Goodkind. I've read both, and the Sword of Truth series is your regular shallow high-fantasy series with unnecessary NC-17 scenes injected in the story solely for shock value purposes. I dropped Goodkind after the third book, and only wish I abandoned the series sooner.
Based on this thread, I seeked out all four books during a sale at Books-A-Million in Gainesville. I almost screamed when I first read them as "5 for $4" and it was only after I found all the books in the "5 for 4" deal that I read the very small print that said "buy4get5thfree". $8 a paperback for the 4 just wasn't feasible at the moment so I may see if they have them at the small-town local library we have here.
Not crossing my fingers as it's probably not worth it.
I'm about halfway through or so; I'm a rather slow reader compared to most people, but the benefit is that I remember small details heh. Anyway I must say the book really has continued the awesome momentum that A GAME OF THRONES ended with. And the politics of it all continue to intrigue me. I'm the kind of guy who was more interested in the politics of 24's first two seasons than the terrorist catching. This book offers so many different things, and I love the fact that it includes battles of words/rights as much as battles of swords/armies.
While the first book dealt with a large cast of characters, this one seems to focus more on a few; I've read more than 400 pages and two POVs in particular have barely come up, compared to others which seem to repeat constantly.
The beginning of A GAME OF THRONES is definitely cool, but early on I grew to dislike certain characters such as Catelyn and Sansa. Yet so far with the second book I cannot honestly say I dislike any of the main characters, outside of maybe
spoiler
THEON. wtf he's a traitor apparently :maf
Things that have impressed/shocked me so far:
-Renly omg. I didn't see that coming; actually I read that chapter last night and had to read two paragraphs over because it didn't make sense. Killing him in that manner seemed like a cop out to me initially, although now that I think about it...I see. I love how magic and fantasy have been treated with so much mystery in both books, and for awhile you really don't know whether it's real or myth. Yet with the dragons and now this shadow magic from the Red Lady (I'm guessing) it's clearly real. I'd imagine Stannis will be able to use Catelyn as the scapegoat for this, blaming her for the murder thus leading his army against Robb's.
-I'm looooving Arya's POV so far. It reminds me a bit of Harry Potter, perhaps due to all the younger supporting characters in her story. She was a badass at the end of the first book, and clearly she's going to wreck some shit before this one is done. Also I'm intrigued by Gendry, ie Robert's bastard son. Seems like he has even more claim to the throne than Joffrey since he's actually of Robert's blood. And there's another bastard out there (Storm or something) who has yet to show up. I just hope Robb makes it, although I kinda spoiled a bit for myself :/
-Catelyn has gone from an annoying lady of privilege to a wise mother. Her involvement with the various kings of the realm is quite interesting. While I root for Robb to survive (although I read a bit of a spoiler :/) it seems like Stannis has the best claim to the throne. Now I just hope Stannis takes on the Lannisters before hitting Robb's armies.
-Beyond the Wall! Perhaps the most suspenseful POV, Jon's journey into the wilderness is building up to one crazy climax. I just finished the chapter where he finds the buried clothes of a Black Brother. I can't wait to see what happened to the guy from the first book's prologue: uhhh the younger Royce. We know he's alive, but is he a villain now? And how will 200-300 men defeat this terror? omg
Very few books keep me on the edge of my seat, or make me so impatient that I contemplate peeking one eye at spoilers on Wikipedia - which is how I almost/kinda spoiled something for myself. I had just wanted to see whether a certain character lived throughout the books lol. I'm not saying these characters are as endearing to me as Harry/Ron/Hermonie, but I'm definitely concerned for their welfare.
Very few books keep me on the edge of my seat, or make me so impatient that I contemplate peeking one eye at spoilers on Wikipedia - which is how I almost/kinda spoiled something for myself.
Don't give into temptation - it's not worth it. There are a lot of awesome twists and turns that won't be nearly as much fun if you know what's going to happen.
