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OT- Official Revenge of the Sith Discussion Thread
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Kung Fu Jedi
Member
I kinda got a chuckle out of Franken-Vader at first, but after I thought about it, it made sense and showed how tragic the character was. First of all, it was the first time he moved with the suit on, so he was kind of awkward and stiff, but it showed his power too. It dawned on him that his dream came true, but because of something he himself had done. It's also the scene where you know that he has completely given over to his rage and you can see the power that he has.
What would have been really cool would have been if the would have shown a close up on Sidious when Vader was raging, and have a look of doubt cross his face, maybe a little fear in his eyes as he wonders if he has unleased a monster that not even he can control.
What would have been really cool would have been if the would have shown a close up on Sidious when Vader was raging, and have a look of doubt cross his face, maybe a little fear in his eyes as he wonders if he has unleased a monster that not even he can control.
IAmtheFMan
Member
DMczaf said:
Dude... I had a similar experience. There actually was a dude-line for the bathroom at the theaters, and I see Darth Maul walking away from a urinal, zipping up.
A little part of the magic was gone there...
olimario said:
I actually agree with Oli. Oh my (except I liked Natalie in Garden State).
The acting was better than the last two movies, but other than Ewan it was still sub-par to me. Same for the characterization, it seemed better because of the lack of it in the two previous.
For some reason I'm bothered by the background character's they've been using in the pt, and the CG still hasn't clicked for me, but I'm a sucker for ILM's old style of building detailed models and blowing them up.
I did love the music in this.
During the Sam Jackson/Palpatine fight, the dialog was horrendous by itself, and the actors only made it worse. Was anyone else bothered by Palpatines continuous changing of accents for each phrase during that entire scene?
mrkgoo said:
this was exactly how it played out in the book. Dooku knew about absolutely everything. Well, except that Palpatine was going to say "Kill him..."
you and I really seem to be on the same page.
this is more of how it is in the book. my only minor disappointment was that the force scream was a bit better in the book.
you and I really seem to be on the same page.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Prine said:
Don't you mean R2??
After reading everything in this thread, I can't wait to see the movie again. Too much to take in the first time. Need to go back and ove analyze like a true Jedi fanboy!
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Phoenix said:
I didn't think it was paining Palpatine at all. I think it was an act to get sympathy from Anakin and help to pull him over to his side, and ultimately, the Dark Side. Witness how much easier it was for him later with Yoda.
Phoenix
Member
Kung Fu Jedi said:
I've been going back and forth on that (which is why I didn't really know which emotions were being pulled at during that scene). On the one hand I was ready to accept that Palp was simply playing on Anakin, but at the same time he was undergoing an actual physical transformation and acting as if he were in pain.
So maybe it didn't pain him at all to use those powers, but they certainly had more of an impact on him (physical change) than they did on Dooku.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
Phoenix said:
Another explanation I had thought about was that it was an act, as I said earlier, but the amount of power it was taking to generate the force lightning no longer allowed him to keep his real image hidden. It certainly wouldn't be in his best interest to have have Anakin see him in his true form. I would think that he would be more sympathetic to Palpatine if he looked like his normal self.
Either way, I don't think using the powers per se caused Palpy any pain. Again, witness his showdown with Yoda. I just saw it as a play for Anakin's sympathy, and the inability to keep both his disguise and the lightning going at the same time. Without going into spoilers, also consider how much power he had left at THE END of that scene.
IAmtheFMan
Member
Phoenix said:
I'm actually glad that Lucas left this kinda up in the air. One of the thing's that I've really disliked about the prequels is that EP:1 and 2 spelled out a lot of mundane details. We don't really need to hear somebody say "we're landing" and then see the ship land.
I still think its REALLY weak that Padme died of a broken heart. I would be fine with it if she didn't just pop out two kids, but with that being case - how weak of a person is she for just giving up, and leaving the kids motherless, and for all intents fatherless? If the kids weren't invovled, her death with be romantic in a tragic Shakespeare-esque sort of way. With the kids, its just makes her a REALLY weak person. Bad move Lucas!
Another problem I have is with when Vadar first wakes up. He asks where she is, and Palapatine says he killed her. At this point, he says - no, she was alive when he left her. That it. He makes it sound like he doesn't believe it, but just that one comment from Palapatine is all it takes to convince him? Crap, Palapatine doesn't even respond to his question, that alone should make Vadar question further.
Beyond this issue, wouldn't Vadar want to just die as well ... after first taking out Palapatine? He only turned to the Dark Side to save Padme. That obviously didn't work, so wouldn't he be questioning his change of allegiance, not to mention Palapatine's explanation?
Another problem I have is with when Vadar first wakes up. He asks where she is, and Palapatine says he killed her. At this point, he says - no, she was alive when he left her. That it. He makes it sound like he doesn't believe it, but just that one comment from Palapatine is all it takes to convince him? Crap, Palapatine doesn't even respond to his question, that alone should make Vadar question further.
Beyond this issue, wouldn't Vadar want to just die as well ... after first taking out Palapatine? He only turned to the Dark Side to save Padme. That obviously didn't work, so wouldn't he be questioning his change of allegiance, not to mention Palapatine's explanation?
sidious always has had two literal faces. You can see he is made up in the holograms in previous movies as well, while McDiramid has no makeup on when playing Palpatine. He uses the force to look normal. He foregos Palpatine's face to leverage his power with the senate in creating the Empire and exterminating the Jedi.
Escape Goat
Member
Admiral daala had a death star which was hidden inside the Maw installation, a cluster of blackholes near Kessel.
Nerd points for me.
Nerd points for me.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
borghe said:
Right. That's very clear in all the films. What I was saying is that under duress, during his show down with Mace, he couldn't keep up the disguise and throw the lightning around. He was also acting weak and feeble to draw in Anakin. At least from my point of view.
this is actually a really good viewpoint. my answer is to say, who says she isn't being weak and/or selfish?Onix said:
vader NEVER questions palpatine. and that is the problem. he honestly believes palpatine is his friend and mentor. he says "But she was alive, I felt her" but has his master telling him she is dead. he believes him because (as far as he believes) he has never lied to him before.
he seeks comfort in the only thing that will now accept him. the darkness.
Phoenix
Member
Kung Fu Jedi said:
Hopefully this is in the book as I hate these ambiguous scenarios
I guess this is his new form, but he is nowhere near as decrepit as he appears in the original trilogy - something I attributed to him using his powers more during the years before we see him again and continuing that transformation into the more powerful decrepit emperor that we get at the end of RotJ. In terms of fighting Yoda, that whole scene is just weird because Yoda wasn't 'defeated' and Yoda was holding his own against Palpatine.
IAmtheFMan said:
Yes, but we aren't talking about that level of ambiguity. This isn't a 'mundane' detail, it changes the nature of the scene entirely.
IAmtheFMan
Member
Onix said:
I haven't really thought things all the way through, but after the events in Sith, Vader's no longer nearly as powerful as he once was. I think the line that gives the most insight into why he just doesn't do something at that time is in Jedi when he has an exchange with Luke where he says "I MUST obey my master..." not necessarily saying "I will" or "I'm going to," but he MUST. Likewise, he says later on in that exchange "It is... too late for me, son."
If I had to speculate, I'd say that he feels that he's in this bind; he's chosen a life in a downward spiral, and he's no longer as strong as he was to ever defeat the Emperor (until he's distracted by electrocuting Luke, but even then, the Emperor pretty much killed him.)
And while I think the Padme thing was the immediate impetus for turning, that wasn't the only thing. Anakin still believes that he's serving the Republic, or at this point, the Empire, and doing what's in the best interest for others, albeit in a very fascist way.
Kung Fu Jedi
Member
But don't forget Palpatine tells Yoda that Vader will be more powerful than either of them. Perhaps by Return of the Jedi he no longer feels that way, but Anakin/Vader certainly has more potential power than any Jedi or Sith in recent memory. (The EU says there are a lot of powerful Jedi/Sith over the years though)
sorry. should have quoted. was responding to phoenix. right, the feedback in the lightning basically drained him of power, including the ability to maintain his palpatine face. He even has a line in the book like "I will miss the face of palpatine, but it has served its purpose" or something like that.Kung Fu Jedi said:
and yes, there is NO question that mace ever bested Palpatine. Assuming Mace is a better fighter than Yoda, I don't know who would have won had the fight been allowed to continue, but Palpatine was definitely feigning loss to get anakin to kill mace.
ding ding ding ding. yup. by the time we get to him in ROTJ, he has been using the darkside now for an additional 25ish years from ROTS.Phoenix said:
I don't really get why people found this ambiguous. you can see palpatine's almost triumphant look on his face when anakin lobs off mace's hand, and then his "ok, enough of this game. now die bitch" when he tosses mace out the window.
it was never clearly stated in the book (feigning loss). actually there was much controversy after the book was released because it WAS more ambiguous. in the movie though, we can clearly see palpatine's reactions. and when mace loses his hand, palpatine's face CLEARLY shows "All is going according to plan" followed by "enough of this charade". at least those are the impressions that I got.Phoenix said:
but yeah, in this one instance, the book was way more ambiguous than the movie. I thought the movie would end it once and for all with palpatine's facial expressions.. guess I was wrong
Phoenix
Member
I saw nothing definitive in his face myself that suggested that he was 'faking it' considering the physical transformation. Since according to what we have in the movie he only has one face, I'm left thinking that him using his force powers is what is changing him in a permenant way.
they were like 50 stories high...doubtful he survived. The fact is palapatine was weak..mace had him beat. Yoda is very old and still he would've beat him had he not fallen. The reason Yoda fled was the clone troopers had started to enter the senate chambers. This was explained in the book but it must have been cut.
I'd also like to give my two cents in with the palpatine face change. I thought it was pretty apparent that mace was close enough that palpatines own lighting was being deflected back at him a little bit which would explain how he was getting weaker.
I'd also like to give my two cents in with the palpatine face change. I thought it was pretty apparent that mace was close enough that palpatines own lighting was being deflected back at him a little bit which would explain how he was getting weaker.
I still don't believe for a second that mace had him beat. palpatine was never shown to be "weak" except for faking loss to get anakin to turn. while mace was certainly holding his own against palpatine, the only ground that palpatine was definitively shown to give up was a ruse to convert anakin.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Onix said:
I'm thinking by that time he'd already been quite twisted up inside. Certainly the loss of Padme demotivated him. Earlier he talked about getting rid of Palpatine so they could rule the galaxy together, but after the loss he evidently decides to just stick in the role of subordinate, continue to protect what was the Republic, and take his anger out on the incompetents around him.
I believe he could've taken Mace out, but he had to allow it to drag along with Mace appearing to be in command long enough for Anakin to show up.effzee said:
"In terms of fighting Yoda, that whole scene is just weird because Yoda wasn't 'defeated' and Yoda was holding his own against Palpatine."
I think that Yoda and Sidious had a draw.... which trnaslates into a defeat for Yoda. He had to defeat him in order to accomplish anything. A draw does nothing for the Republic. Especially if you are now public enemy numba #1.
I think that Yoda and Sidious had a draw.... which trnaslates into a defeat for Yoda. He had to defeat him in order to accomplish anything. A draw does nothing for the Republic. Especially if you are now public enemy numba #1.
you seem to not think about the fact that Palpatine knew anakin would come before he even told the jedi in the first place. Palpatine knew anakin would be there in minutes the same way he knew anakin would need help on mustafar. it wasn't luck that anakin showed up right as sidious "lost". Sidious knew anakin was on his way and used it to his advantage.btrboyev said:
this is 100% correct. yoda could not beat sidious and took off rather than fight to the death. Run away, learn to fight another day.Cimarron said:
btrboyev said:
IAWTP. Mace was deflecting the lightning right back at Palpatine- he actually was disfigured. When he is Sidious in all 3 PT films, when the hood is down he is clearly not disfigured- eg, when he is talking to Darth Maul on the Balcony.
I also agree with thye notion that Mace had Palpatine bested- he is known to be the best warrior of all the Jedi.
evil ways said:
You heard it here first, kids! Smoking is bad for your health!
borghe said:
Ya. Hey, is the book any good? I was fliiping through it...and it seemed alright...some bits were ok, but maybe I hsould wait untill all the hype has died down, and it's in teh bargain bin...
Another question: What's the deal with recalibrating the security signal to tell Jedi to keep away from the Temple? I mean, sure it makes sense to warn other Jedi, but isn't it just unnecessary in terms of the story, seeing as no other Jedi actually survive? Or was it a bridge to teh security footage?
Phoenix
Member
mrkgoo said:
I just assumed that there had to be SOMEONE out there that was good enough to survive or was just out on some special duty where they weren't sitting with a room full of storm troopers. I kinda expected that there could actually be some sprinkling of jedi in the universe (handful or so) that are still out there...
after all, Vader was supposed to help hunt them down according to the old movies. Not much of a hunt if you butcher them all in the same building
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I was wondering that, too. However, I figure it worked as a giant bone thrown to fanfic and Expanded Universe writers. Now we'll be able to purchase various sorts of media about Jedi who secreted themselves away unbeknownst to Obi-Wan and Yoda.mrkgoo said:
EDIT: Aside from the question of how many other Jedi survive... their actions would really only help the Forrest Gumps of Jedi. The Jedi who travel across the galaxy and go straight to Jedi Central without having heard, sensed, or noticed anything unusual along the way.
look again. sidious is in makeup in both earlier movies. he has the whole wrinkled chin and nose thing going on that poalpatine never has, even in AOTC. you can tell because his chin and nose in those movies, while entirely different from palpatine's chin and nose, is exactly the same as sidious when he talks to the separatist leaders on mustafar and when they are looking at the death star on the star destroyer, by which points he has already given up the face of palpatine.shantyman said:
mace didn't disfigure him, and this isn't up for debate. it is in the book. that is his true face. All mace did was cause him to not be able to maintain his palpatine face, at which point he said he no longer needed to. according to the book it was essentially dark side feedback that caused his face to revert. so that is no indication that he lost.
if he didn't know anakin was coming, I could almost agree with you guys. but he knew anakin was coming from the start. you guys seem to be putting WAY too much into the coincidence that palpatine happened to coicidentally lose right as anakin was at the door... the guy has been plotting for how many years and controlling everything but he had to rely on luck and happenstance at such a critical junture as this?
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