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[SnakeLinkSonic]

Ben Kuchera on ad-blocking, online publishing, and why 'this system sucks'.

Link: [Ad-blockers, the games press, and why sexy cosplay galleries lead to better reporting]

"There is a more subtle side effect to supporting sites directly. We click on crappy stories or sexually suggestive images because we like garbage and it costs us nothing. It's the Honey Boo Boo of reporting, and we all read it more often than we'd like to admit. But what we'll click on and what we'll pay for are two totally different things. I don't have the data to back this up, but I'm willing to bet the garbage will always get more clicks, but the engaging, high-quality original stories will always get more money directly from readers."

"The use of ad blocking software will only go up, and advertisers will be forced to get more annoying to compensate for a smaller audience. Cash-strapped sites without the community to support a model of reader-supported content are going to suffer."

"We talked about talented, older developers leaving game development, but the same thing happens to reporters. Few sites have the money to offer writers a full-time position, and even fewer offer benefits. It’s incredibly hard to spend the years building up the contacts, expertise, and skill it takes to report a story well when there is no money in doing so, and it makes more business sense to simply re-write an existing story or go with that cosplay gallery. We want people who know the business to report on it, but the current system doesn’t allow them to making a living wage doing so, and in fact it often punishes unique work."

"If you’re a 25 year old guy who has a job in IT, makes a good living, and reads a ton of blogs, odds are you’re blocking ads. I love you folks, and you're my people, but from a business perspective, you’re a really crummy market to go after."

"If you don’t block ads, but you visit that site with a 50% rate of ad blockers and a $5 CPM, your visit is worth around one-quarter of a single penny. There is nothing about this system that is good for anyone. It sucks for everyone. I’ve had game developers tell me happily on Twitter that they block ads, and I feel like that’s the same thing as telling them I pirate games."

 

[HoosTrax]

Basically, he's saying that Ashcraft is a necessary evil?

 

[theytookourjobz]

Yep. Look at giantbomb.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Cash-strapped sites without the community to support a model of reader-supported content are going to suffer.

Sites that do have the community to support a model of reader-supported content end up being the only sites I care about anyway. So...

 

[Baleoce]

@botherer (John Walker, R.P.S)

This piece from PAR doesn't speak for or describe RPS at all. URGH. What rot. http://bit.ly/173sP18

https://twitter.com/botherer/status/324570502448431104

Seems like quite a divisive topic for the gaming press.

 

[James Coote]

I think the hint that things are "not sustainable" actually translates into "some sites are going to go bust and others are simply going to turn into the mouthpieces of the financial backers"

 

[Guevara]

The article argues that cosplay galleries etc. subsidize the real reporting.

But it seems like the people have spoken: they want the cosplay galleries, they don't necessarily want the reporting and that's a terrible position to be in.

 

[Camp Lo]

I’ve had game developers tell me happily on Twitter that they block ads, and I feel like that’s the same thing as telling them I pirate games.

Good to know.

 

[Cheesemeister]

So, what we really need is some hard-biting investigative reporting fueled by Dew and powered by Doritos.

 

[Nirolak]

https://twitter.com/botherer/status/324570502448431104

Seems like quite a divisive topic for the gaming press.

At first I thought that was a creative attempt to get people to read the article with an inflammatory tweet, but the later tweets seem to imply that's not true.

 

[Devilgunman]

People love sexual and/or funny images more than news. #dealwithit That's what Tumblr taught me.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

People love sexual and/or funny images more than news. #dealwithit That's what Tumblr taught me.

Heh, Tumblr also taught me that people value outright fabrications even more.

 

[Baleoce]

At first I thought that was a creative attempt to get people to read the article with an inflammatory tweet, but the later tweets seem to imply that's not true.

Yeah that's what I thought at first. But he seems to be taking a hard stance on separating his, and RPS's editorial practices from the way ads and clicks are considered in the business, at least from his point of view. I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of it. But the article certainly does make you think.

 

[Jarmel]

Gies is the hero we deserve.

 

[Mandoric]

Chasing clicks at all costs is definitely an approach, and I'm sure there's situations (like the one decent guy on Kotaku) where it covers the paychecks of people who do real work, but it's disingenuous to justify yourself by saying that racing to the bottom is the only way to survive, or that it brings up the quality of reporting rather than just creating bloated leviathans who drag down each others' individual value and make such scraping necessary.

 

[YuriLowell]

Common sense 101.

You revenue model is based upon ad views, of course your chasing page views.

 

[Roki6]

kind of on topic but this is best place to ask.

I noticed that many new threads start with copy/paste of whole article or at least with most of it. This is not the case with this topic but it seems that is happening often enough that I noticed...and I usually dont care about such things.

This is taking away hits for sure and if GAF audience (logged in + lurkers) is big then it's alot of lost income fore gaming sites.

So why is this tolerated?

Especially since scans of magazines are bannable offense, and this is pretty much the same thing.

 

[Lime]

While I understand the financial and idealistic hardships of being a journalist in this day and age, I also don't think that consumer demand justify the shitty behaviour by others.

The "the system sucks, that's just how it is" is not a proper excuse, imo.

 

[Tummi Gummi]

I would be more sympathetic if I thought the "highbrow" stuff it was funding was worthwhile itself. But I wouldn't really say that.

 

[Mandoric]

kind of on topic but this is best place to ask.

I noticed that many new threads start with copy/paste of whole article or at least with most of it. This is not the case with this topic but it seems that is happening often enough that I noticed...and I usually dont care about such things.

This is taking away hits for sure and if GAF audience (logged in + lurkers) is big then it's alot of lost income fore gaming sites.

So why is this tolerated?

Especially since scans of magazines are bannable offense, and this is pretty much the same thing.

Because GAF policy is governed by what causes the moderation staff the least trouble, and no sites have put up serious complaints about copied text yet. The scans policy isn't for any legal or charitable reason, it's because fighting GI was :eff and having separate policies for different mags is more :eff.

 

[dwu8991]

he's so right, why is still in this job then when he could make more money some where else.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

kind of on topic but this is best place to ask.

I noticed that many new threads start with copy/paste of whole article or at least with most of it. This is not the case with this topic but it seems that is happening often enough that I noticed...and I usually dont care about such things.

This is taking away hits for sure and if GAF audience (logged in + lurkers) is big then it's alot of lost income fore gaming sites.

So why is this tolerated?

Especially since scans of magazines are bannable offense, and this is pretty much the same thing.

OP's are expected to only post parts of an article with a link back to it. Not only is that a fair way of doing things, the last thing any site would want is to be banned on Gaf.

 

[RedNumberFive]

I was under the impression that the 360 dash had conditioned us to LOVE advertising.

 

[Lime]

Common sense 101.

You revenue model is based upon ad views, of course your chasing page views.

This is the mentality behind tabloid bullshit and it justifies fabricated articles for "chasing page views".

 

[Roki6]

Because GAF policy is governed by what causes the moderation staff the least trouble, and no sites have put up serious complaints about copied text yet. The scans policy isn't for any legal or charitable reason, it's because fighting GI was :eff and having separate policies for different mags is more :eff.

What/who is GI?

 

[Lime]

What/who is GI?

Game Informer.

 

[Jb]

Isn't the market for video games websites pretty saturated too? There are a TON of them out there and most of them offer the same content with some slight variations. At least they are more focused and interesting sites in the anglo-saxon medias, you should see the garbage that is the french gaming press sphere.

And I understand most of these sites are hesitant to try a suscription-based model when they know their original content really isn't worth much.

Sucribing to the NYT? Sure. The WSJ? Makes sense. Foreign Affairs? Why not. But a fucking video game website that has maybe a dozen interesting editorials/investigative pieces a month? Not exactly the most attractive proposition.

 

[SnakeLinkSonic]

kind of on topic but this is best place to ask.

I noticed that many new threads start with copy/paste of whole article or at least with most of it. This is not the case with this topic but it seems that is happening often enough that I noticed...and I usually dont care about such things.

This is taking away hits for sure and if GAF audience (logged in + lurkers) is big then it's alot of lost income fore gaming sites.

So why is this tolerated?

Especially since scans of magazines are bannable offense, and this is pretty much the same thing.

Hopefully a mod will answer you. I was wondering the same thing when I was making it. I just cherry-picked what I thought would spark further discussion and draw people to go read it for themselves, as I assumed that was the most effective method.

 

[hellclerk]

You know, I kind of find how interesting this "Penny Press" the internet has created. If subscription fees with real benefits could be determined for a low, easy to access cost, or even adopting the original crowdfunding model, the model of American public media, I wonder if the games journalism industry would be able to thrive without dependence on ads and being trapped by Doritos and Mountain Dew.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

Hopefully a mod will answer you. I was wondering the same thing when I was making it. I just cherry-picked what I thought would spark further discussion and draw people to go read it for themselves, as I assumed that was the most effective method.

It is, you posted maybe 10 - 15 percent of it and it will get a bunch of clicks from your thread.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Once we have unlimited 1Gbps internet rolled out over most of the world, all websites will just be written in 100% HTML5 and you won't be able to block ads anymore

 

[Mandoric]

You know, I kind of find how interesting this "Penny Press" the internet has created. If subscription fees with real benefits could be determined for a low, easy to access cost, or even adopting the original crowdfunding model, the model of American public media, I wonder if the games journalism industry would be able to thrive without dependence on ads and being trapped by Doritos and Mountain Dew.

Or we could have models based on labeled sponsored content like OTHER public media, or media producing research like most other industry press, or clearly-labeled advert sections.

 

[Baleoce]

Imo, low quality editorials indirectly funding higher quality ones tends to imply the business model isn't sustainable, or somehow needs to adapt. It is of course fine to ask your visitors to whitelist their favourite sites, I think it's only polite, as long as the ads aren't *too* obnoxious and end up destroying the browsing experience. I personally like to share good articles from the source on things like twitter/facebook/g+, but that doesn't change the fact that a pretty static percentage of users from what is always going to be their largest target demographic is always going to block ads. Surely a different business tactic is required at this point? If what Ben says is true, I don't see the point in hoping that readers will unblock the ads, or instead having to condone lower quality editorials that are solely designed to generate revenue/clicks to fund better ones. I doubt he's actually condoning the practice, rather stating it's an incidental benefit that can't be judged too harshly.

I won't pretend to know the actual answers either though, but it feels like something has to budge. What happened in the end regarding PA's kickstarter? I know it got funded at least.

 

[YuriLowell]

This is the mentality behind tabloid bullshit and it justifies fabricated articles for "chasing page views".

Unless you have a different business model, its not gonna change.

 

[AkuMifune]

I posted this in the Games Journalism thread, but it's just an excuse. You can pander to the unholy masses for your cheap clicks, just don't pretend to be above it and only doing it out of necessity. I refuse to spend time on websites that use click bait to justify their existence. If you write good stuff, good people will find you. The model for that is called common sense.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

... and I understand most of these sites are hesitant to try a suscription-based model when they know their original content really isn't worth much.

Subscribing to the NYT? Sure. The WSJ? Makes sense. Foreign Affairs? Why not. But a fucking video game website that has maybe a dozen interesting editorials/investigative pieces a month? Not exactly the most attractive proposition.

I have to agree. I pay $130 a year to read the Economist online (I was tired of seeing it in stores a few days before it arrived on my door, usually the same day the next week's issue was released) but I doubt I'd pay that much for just gaming news. Maybe if it offered demos of the previews they wrote about, but that's not going to happen (and probably shouldn't).

 

[Lime]

Unless you have a different business model, its not gonna change.

All hail the status quo!

 

[Mandoric]

I have to agree. I pay $130 a year to read the Economist online (I was tired of seeing it in stores a few days before it arrived on my door, usually the same day the next week's issue was released) but I doubt I'd pay that much for just gaming news. Maybe if it offered demos of the previews they wrote about, but that's not going to happen (and probably shouldn't).

To be completely frank and a little self-serving, I think everyone involved, publishers, writers, and readers, would be better off in a world composed of official info portals and honest muckrakers rather than one where we had 100 enthusiasts all earning barely enough to live with a roomie in 'Frisco by reposting the same press pack.

 

[Puppet Shadow]

To be completely frank and a little self-serving, I think everyone involved, publishers, writers, and readers, would be better off in a world composed of official info portals and honest muckrakers rather than one where we had 100 enthusiasts all earning barely enough to live with a roomie in 'Frisco by reposting the same press pack.

Someone think of the PR employee's children!

But ya, hopefully a new model will develop that rewards quality over (regurgitated) quantity.

 

[Roki6]

Hopefully a mod will answer you. I was wondering the same thing when I was making it. I just cherry-picked what I thought would spark further discussion and draw people to go read it for themselves, as I assumed that was the most effective method.

My post was not about your topic.
From my memory many next-gen leaks threads had copy/paste of whole article. Especially vgleaks stuff
And for today I think the thread about BioShock infinite (and some returning the game because of religious views) contained whole article.

 

[MisterHero]

I had no idea that Penny Arcade decided they needed a journalism branch. The comic is already an informal mini-editorial, and it doesn't need to be "official" or anything.

 

[Lime]

This is also relevant for this thread (thanks to Cyrano)

 

[Mandoric]

Someone think of the PR employee's children!

But ya, hopefully a new model will develop that rewards quality over quantity.

The PR employee would be better-served being a PR employee. Surely there's room for ten or so community managers at Activision, multiplied across the industry?

 

[AJTsuki]

Went to read the article, turned off AdBlock and surprise, the only ads on the page were ads to other Penny Arcade content (which could be served in a way that wouldn't be seen by AdBlock as advertising).

It's an unsustainable system. It always has been. I run a very large website that provides a considerable amount of content to a much smaller readership than PA. There is not one ad on the site. We sought ways of funding our work that do not include intrusive advertising. And we had to work really hard to do that.

I applaud anyone that can get paid to play and blog about games. But that is an incredible privilege, and a lot more fun than spending a day doing cold call sales, or tech support or even game QA. It is not my job or my responsibility to make it financially tenable, it is theirs. I support the PA comics by buying their books, and an occasional t-shirt. I turn off ads on blogs because they annoy me.

Blog posts about how using AdBlock is not cool are getting really tiresome. I wonder if the AdBlock guys can add an option where you can block blog posts about AdBlock.

 

[jschreier]

To be completely frank and a little self-serving, I think everyone involved, publishers, writers, and readers, would be better off in a world composed of official info portals and honest muckrakers rather than one where we had 100 enthusiasts all earning barely enough to live with a roomie in 'Frisco by reposting the same press pack.

OK. Let's say that were to happen, and the best journalists in the field all ganged up for a great publication that only produced high-quality original content. Let's say they wrote a long article about, say, the struggles at a video game studio.

Let's say another website comes along, sees a couple of interesting nuggets of news in that article - "game X cancelled," for example - and publishes their own story with that angle and headline.

What does website A do when website B's article is passed around the Internet because it's more digestable? When website B's article makes it to the front page of NeoGAF and Reddit? When website B makes a shitload of money off website A's work? When tons of other websites like B pop up because they know that's an easier way to make money than the method website A uses?

 

[Blimblim]

This is sadly very true. My site definitely targets the most hardcore of the hardcore, and it shows in terms of adblocking. We do small-ish numbers to begin with, and with adblocking it's looking impossible to pay for the servers and go to the 3 big game shows yearly. I'm not even talking about paying people here, just keeping the site running and getting the essential content.

 

[Dragon]

Went to read the article, turned off AdBlock and surprise, the only ads on the page were ads to other Penny Arcade content (which could be served in a way that wouldn't be seen by AdBlock as advertising).

It's an unsustainable system. It always has been. I run a very large website that provides a considerable amount of content to a much smaller readership than PA. There is not one ad on the site. We sought ways of funding our work that do not include intrusive advertising. And we had to work really hard to do that.

I applaud anyone that can get paid to play and blog about games. But that is an incredible privilege, and a lot more fun than spending a day doing cold call sales, or tech support or even game QA. It is not my job or my responsibility to make it financially tenable, it is theirs. I support the PA comics by buying their books, and an occasional t-shirt. I turn off ads on blogs because they annoy me.

Blog posts about how using AdBlock is not cool are getting really tiresome. I wonder if the AdBlock guys can add an option where you can block blog posts about AdBlock.

The issue I have with ads as a programmer (who works for a big sports media company) is the experience. Some sites get it right, loading ads after the content, but most still have crazy stupid flash or document.write calls which really create a poor loading experience. I don't use ad block on Neogaf because 1. I like posting here, 2. it doesn't hinder the experience (some of the context sensitive ads are actually hilarious) and 3. it supports a site that I've been on for six years. I don't have that type of loyalty to a random internet blog and never will. Something needs to be done with ads in general on the net and it needs to be sooner rather than later. I'm not just talking about desktop but mobile and other platforms as well. It's not an easy solution but we have smart people who need to understand that ads on websites are not ads on TV, etc.

 

[Jake Tower]

OK. Let's say that were to happen, and the best journalists in the field all ganged up for a great publication that only produced high-quality original content. Let's say they wrote a long article about, say, the struggles at a video game studio.

Let's say another website comes along, sees a couple of interesting nuggets of news in that article - "game X cancelled," for example - and publishes their own story with that angle and headline.

What does website A do when website B's article is passed around the Internet because it's more digestable? When website B's article makes it to the front page of NeoGAF and Reddit? When website B makes a shitload of money off website A's work? When tons of other websites like B pop up because they know that's an easier way to make money than the method website A uses?

So you're saying used news is hurting the industry...

 

[Puppet Shadow]

I run a very large website that provides a considerable amount of content to a much smaller readership than PA. There is not one ad on the site. We sought ways of funding our work that do not include intrusive advertising. And we had to work really hard to do that.

If it's gaming related, you mind posting a link so I can check it out?

 

[Stopdoor]

On the question of the original post summary taking away clicks; it's fairly obvious half the people here commenting only read the title and summary... because the article does go into why the more intelligent readers are more likely to block advertisements, devaluing intelligent articles, and that an alternate solution is direct donations...

Half the people posting don't read the article and just go by the summary, that says a lot.