-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Paid Skyrim mods being removed from Steam
- Thread starter Archie
- Start date
StereoVsn
Gold Member
The big difference between the Valve model and the attempted Bethesda/Valve Skyrim model is that the former is treated pretty much as a DLC/microtransaction for the game. It's vetted by the vendor (Valve), there is support, it's not going to ruin your save game, it's not going to run amok because you have 5 other hats in the inventory, etc...
The issue is that Skyrim modding is terribly unstable as it is and paid mods working within the structure of free mods (and often depending on them) when anything in the "supply chain" can become unsupported, out of date, at any time, is just not a great idea.
Buying a hat and wearing it is 5 seconds. Fighting with Skyrim load order and troubleshooting can take days (and sometimes just does not work), requires fairly decent knowledge of gamebryo modding, and really can't be done without tools external to Steam.
The concept of modders getting paid for their effort is a good one, but implementation of such concept on a game such as Skyrim with years of mods (and over decade if you count Morrowind) already in the community is mindbogglingly dumb.
The issue is that Skyrim modding is terribly unstable as it is and paid mods working within the structure of free mods (and often depending on them) when anything in the "supply chain" can become unsupported, out of date, at any time, is just not a great idea.
Buying a hat and wearing it is 5 seconds. Fighting with Skyrim load order and troubleshooting can take days (and sometimes just does not work), requires fairly decent knowledge of gamebryo modding, and really can't be done without tools external to Steam.
The concept of modders getting paid for their effort is a good one, but implementation of such concept on a game such as Skyrim with years of mods (and over decade if you count Morrowind) already in the community is mindbogglingly dumb.
Valve have announced that people have made 6 figure salaries off the market, if memory serves they mentioned it several times in fact. It has been discussed to death so much in these threads that I assumed it had become common knowledge at this point.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=493568
Theonik
Member
Well you probably should have linked that then. Though it's a figure from 2012 so for all we know isn't actually the case anymore and there is no figures to support it either. (more of an offhand comment)
Great for them though if it's true.
eot
Banned
The community has always made the best maps for competitive shooters, whether they got paid or not. Most, if not all the classic CS maps are community made.
Yet they haven't released data to back that up. I wonder who this mysterious six figure dev was and what they made that sold that well.
not psycho
Member
I don't understand this sentiment.
Our only right with Xbox One DRM was to decline to buy it? We were outside of our rights to voice concerns with the system, perhaps leading to it being changed?
Seriously, I don't get what you are saying at all. It is absolutely a right to voice concern and/or ask for changes. Why wouldn't it be? And there is an additional option, which was not used in this case, of resorting to Consumer Protection law.
Valve does not have literal carte blanche to do anything they want. It may seem that way given their market position and leverage over users who feel locked in to their system. But they don't. If someone really decides to go at them hard over something like force updating the songs out of GTA, or removing access to old games if you don't accept a new terms of service, they would hopefully have a real fight on their hands (at least in countries with stronger Consumer Protection).
But again, that didn't happen yet. Why do you think users should be so powerless and meaningless they don't even have the right to voice concerns or suggest changes? This isn't about modders. It's about Valve, a mod-hostile company that tried to bring out a ridiculously bad scheme and got called on it.
Also, I didn't think of it before it was mentioned here, but it is possible Valve's decision was largely based on being open to copyright claims themselves. Their idea of an uncurated store could be more dangerous for them than anyone else.
Yeah, I suspect those making six figures would be accurately represented on a curve as resting three standard deviations rightward of the mean income. They're extraordinarily successful, definitely not a part of the norm.
Angryharlot
Banned
Well, Bethesda better pull a Valve and start hiring some of these modders to help release a complete game. If they claim to want to help them, that would do more than this weak effort.
It has gotten to the point that the real release date for their games is a year and a half later when valve is offering all of the DLC with it at 75% off and all the needed mods have been made.
This next release will be interesting to watch, though.
It has gotten to the point that the real release date for their games is a year and a half later when valve is offering all of the DLC with it at 75% off and all the needed mods have been made.
This next release will be interesting to watch, though.
Nobody is saying that consumers have no right to voice their concerns. For those in favor of Valve's overall concept (if not its particular implementation), the issue is freedom of contract.
Yet many players seem to be against this principle. In their view, consumers deserve control over the charitable options of a modder rather than vice versa. According to many posters, the modder shouldn't have the right to decide whether to release something for free--it should be a choice imposed systematically.
Consumer protection law is designed to prevent fraud. Unless you're trying to say that all mods are fraudulent, I don't see why Valve would need to resort to a blanket prohibition on premium mods. I don't think you understand the legal rights and obligations of Valve with respect to users. First, any dispute you have involving the implied merchantability of software you receive via Steam is going to be subject to binding arbitration. Second, Valve's duties with respect to copyright infringement are unchanged regardless of whether mods are monetized or not. You can infringe copyright without profiting. Third, outright fraud committed by unscrupulous modders will be policed by Valve. To think they would do otherwise is absurd.
In short, Valve has every right to create a market for premium mods as long as they obtain the contractual consent of the developer and the modder. The consumer has no right to intervene in the formation of that contract. Whether or not such a contract relationship is actually beneficial is another matter, but it's certainly legal.
The reason I stopped modding, because it took time, time which I need to make money and a living.
It's a good idea, but would of been better if Bethesda actually still supported Skyrim.
Skyrim can be full of shit and technical difficulties with regards to mods, which is a problem. A donation system with goals would be a bit better.
A game with a more controlled environment like DOTA2 cosmetics is more suitable for micro transactions/dlc.
It's a good idea, but would of been better if Bethesda actually still supported Skyrim.
Skyrim can be full of shit and technical difficulties with regards to mods, which is a problem. A donation system with goals would be a bit better.
A game with a more controlled environment like DOTA2 cosmetics is more suitable for micro transactions/dlc.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You seem to be stuck thinking the way things are in the past must or should always be the way things are going forward.
Plus, mods being sold for profit or being used as a method to launch a career in development is nothing new or unique to skyrim. It is not just a hobby for some people, it is far greater than that.
And the whole rant about youtubers... just speaks volumes on your attitude.
not psycho
Member
Except the person I was responding to.
To be clear, I don't think very many people on either side believe that "your only right is the right to decline that offer", implying that there is no right to voice concern or ask for changes. My response was only for the person I quoted.
iNvid02
Member
$57 million sounds impressive until you realize its
1. For valve's mostly F2P/multiplayer games
2. For mostly simple cosmetic items
3. For games that are consistently the most played titles on Steam (two by a wide margin)
4. RPS mentioned people hoarding items as an investment or trading them as some form of weird currency
5. The figure is since 2011 spread across 1500 users - sure some hit the jackpot and are earned six figures but we don't know much else about that, the average is still $38,000 each or $9500 per year
No one knows how it would have unfolded here, but the idea of stable incomes, a full time living, and an increase in the quality and complexity of mods
because microtransactions for cosmetic items have been successful in their F2P/multiplayer games always sounded like a stretch personally.
1. For valve's mostly F2P/multiplayer games
2. For mostly simple cosmetic items
3. For games that are consistently the most played titles on Steam (two by a wide margin)
4. RPS mentioned people hoarding items as an investment or trading them as some form of weird currency
5. The figure is since 2011 spread across 1500 users - sure some hit the jackpot and are earned six figures but we don't know much else about that, the average is still $38,000 each or $9500 per year
No one knows how it would have unfolded here, but the idea of stable incomes, a full time living, and an increase in the quality and complexity of mods
because microtransactions for cosmetic items have been successful in their F2P/multiplayer games always sounded like a stretch personally.
Also, Skyrim isn't being updated by Bethesda anymore, and has a 4+ year established mod community that was being upended without any say from the community. Furthermore, the concept of paid mods completely changes the landscape of the PC modding culture, not just for Skyrim, but in general. And it was pushed forward by two corporations under strict NDA with the cooperation of a handful of 4 or 5 modders and sprung upon the general public without any of their input. All while claiming it was being done for the benefit of the gaming community (Yeah, you're so concerned with the community that you would spring something on them without seeking their input).
The entire problem is that it was a shallow money grab that could only throw the community into chaos, forced on the community under the pretense of helping it.
Google can and have taken things down from the Android App Store.
Valve have no guidelines, or certification or even recommended compatibility guides. The extent of their involvement is suggesting that if you have an issue, you go talk to the modder, even though you've given the majority of money to them.
It's not the same at all.
FarmerGiles
Member
Purely as a consumer, Im pleased that this has blown over. I dont care about the financial situation of modders, I dont care about publishers or steam. What incentives are there for suddenly paying for the mods that are in my mod list. Better quality mods? I dont think so, lets already look at the multitude of excellent high quality mods that are already available. Why would I suddenly want to start paying modders for their work, have I somehow missed that they were in it for the money? idk, I guess if we were to look at it from the purely financial standpoint that weve been asked to look at it, Id just flip the arguments back on them. Simply put, Id rather the money stay in my own wallet, Ill pay in thumbs ups, bug reports, sharing, and comment participation (and the very occasional donation).
At least he didn't have to share 45% of those mad profits with Bethesda.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm pretty sure he would be thrilled to take a 25% cut from 9 million downloads. He'd be over the moon, even if he only charged 1 dollar!
Granted, he'd have competition and he wouldn't get 9 million purchases. But this whole "he didn't have to share" with bethesda is pretty damn silly when you're talking about a 6 figure yearly salary.
Angry Fork
Member
People who think ONLY donations should exist in this case are I think foolish, it reminds me of conservatives who say taxes are bad and only charity should fund needed things. The idea of modders being able to make a living off of their work is fine and worth pursuing.
That being said the ratio should not be 25% to the content creator, it should be at least 75%. It's not entirely unreasonable for the rest to go to Valve, since they do manage stuff behind the scenes. Bathesda deserves nothing because the intellectual property argument is rubbish and people already paid the 50-60 bucks to use their "tools" ie the game. People should be most upset at Bathesda but it seems like Valve has gotten the brunt of the hate.
That being said the ratio should not be 25% to the content creator, it should be at least 75%. It's not entirely unreasonable for the rest to go to Valve, since they do manage stuff behind the scenes. Bathesda deserves nothing because the intellectual property argument is rubbish and people already paid the 50-60 bucks to use their "tools" ie the game. People should be most upset at Bathesda but it seems like Valve has gotten the brunt of the hate.
GoonerTRON
Banned
They needed to police it better, like maybe just a greenlight situation where the best mods that are proven to be original work, get Bethesda approved next to their name and a 5 dollar download button,
This is the thing that really gets me about all of this. People say "just don't buy it" if there's something I don't like about the game - but why should I completely give up on the game when I can voice my opinion and possibly get it changed?
There's only one Elder Scrolls series, and I love the lore/setting/etc., why should I say goodbye to all that just because I don't like the way the corporation behind it is going? What is so bad about consumers speaking out for what they want when it comes to a product they care about?
Not really, considering modding is generally done with the understanding that it's free. If you tell people it's free, they're going to assume that means it's free.
If they want donations they should be more up front about it.
Or don't mod at all, since it's been a hobbyist pursuit for a decade
Nothing silly about flushing money down the toilet. You get paid for the work you do. Bethesda didn't allocate labor for the mods. They made the game and sold it along with the dlc making near billions. That is where it stops. They don't support their own game. They stopped updating it and it doesn't cost them any upkeep like it would for say valve when maintaining online games. Its just a singleplayer rpg. The 45% bethesda wants should all go to the modders. Maybe if they made skyrim free to play than they could claim a small percentage like 15% or something. Otherwise modders are getting ripped off with this split. Not much else to say.
RiccochetJ
Gold Member
Well, I mean the new Unreal Tournament in development is going to/already have paid mods in their store. I think their message went over a lot better because Epic said that's how they're going to fund the game's development though.
Bethseda should get half of what the modders make off of their mod. Bethesda creates the game.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
Valve Corporation gonna corporation. They'll try again, folks, don't you fret.
Don't be deceived: this has absolutely nothing to do with "giving back to the people" nor putting money into the pockets of the modders (who've been enriching the PC scene for decades with mostly unpaid, unacknowledged work). It has to do with Valve Corp (who has already shifted to making a living off other people's mods by buying rights to them and turning them into games) trying to further monetize the mod scene.
All praise Gaben!
Don't be deceived: this has absolutely nothing to do with "giving back to the people" nor putting money into the pockets of the modders (who've been enriching the PC scene for decades with mostly unpaid, unacknowledged work). It has to do with Valve Corp (who has already shifted to making a living off other people's mods by buying rights to them and turning them into games) trying to further monetize the mod scene.
All praise Gaben!
FlutterPuffs
Member
I hope they do.
Some modders deserve to be paid for the improvements they have made.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
What is this "deserve" word you are using? I agree that some modders put a lot of work into the stuff they do, and it even lands some of them jobs. But "deserve" seems rather...entitled. They bought a game and poured some love into it. And now corporations want to monetize it. Horray for modders?
SkyUI deserves to be paid for the UI improvements they have made. Bethesda doesn't deserve to get a 40% cut for giving us a shitty UI in the first place.
So it should never change?
Why not let the modder decide instead of forcing them to only "mod for free or GTFO"? The option still exists for them to give the mod for free.
Are you okay with modders having a choice?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're going to have to explain how it is flushing money down the toilet by giving Bethesda their cut of a sale involving their property. Also just consider this for a moment. You can take option A, where you receive $300,000-$2,500,000 or you can stand by your "flushing money down the toilet" analogy and receive $100-1000.
Also, claiming Bethesda has no right to the money has 0 basis in law or reality. Just because they've made a lot of money off their game, doesn't mean they should no longer receive money from sales of the game or sales relating to the game. They didn't spend 80+ million dollars so other people could earn money off their game without them getting a share that they are legally entitled to have.
Sure, you're entitled to feel that maybe they don't deserve the money. And maybe you don't buy mods on that basis. That is your choice. But to say modders shouldn't be given the option to sell because bethesda takes a cut, is you imposing your personal restrictions on other people. People who both are willing to sell mods, and people who are willing to buy mods.
Maybe some day I'll understand the mentality of "they are too successful, they no longer deserve continued success - greedy corporations!"
They very easily deserve the chance to make their case for their mod if they choose to list it for sale. In other words, they deserve the choice to try and make money if Bethesda is willing to allow it.
Pretty much.
Just because someone makes software/art/music and uploads it for free doesn't mean that they're a hobbyist (though some are). It can be entirely done to further their professional goals by getting experience / exposure. The only reason we don't have professional modders in addition to amateur modders is that there isn't a way for them to monetize their work.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
But no one actually *intervened* with the formation of that contract, and I don't see anyone actually debating what was done was illegal. Many just weren't happy about it, and thus they actually did voice their concerns, and in the end Valve reneged their position of this over that concern; no one's legally forcing them to do it.
I actually don't see what you're trying to argue here, unless I missed a story somewhere about any consumer threating to sue Valve legally over this?
FlutterPuffs
Member
Notice that I haven't defended Bethesda, lol.
It's a word! It's used very often in a lot of sentences.
In this instance I use this definition, so you don't get confused.
Anyway, some modders go far and beyond what the game offers and actually makes the game more fun, or better. I feel that they do deserve a bit of love from us. That's what I feel, after years growing up playing TF, CS, Dota, etc.
Modders have made things interesting for gamers, so for me, since I do have money to spend, I don't mind giving some their dues
I am, but apparently Bethesda isn't.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
I see what the disagreement here; those who WANT the problematic paid mods, have no regard for what is good for gaming, and instead focus exclusively in legality. "It is legal!" is the battle-cry. "It is industry standard to take 30%!" they said.
Perhaps one might have to think beyond "doing everything you can legally get away with"?
Valve didn't break any laws. Bethesda didn't break any laws. But it doesn't matter that they stayed with the law; the plan was badly implemented. The fact that it was legal doesn't make it acceptable. The fact that it is legal doesn't mean it works. And the fact that it is legal doesn't mean it was a good idea.
If the best you can come up with to support the horrible implementation, is "at least they couldn't get sued", you are not being very convincing.
Perhaps one might have to think beyond "doing everything you can legally get away with"?
Valve didn't break any laws. Bethesda didn't break any laws. But it doesn't matter that they stayed with the law; the plan was badly implemented. The fact that it was legal doesn't make it acceptable. The fact that it is legal doesn't mean it works. And the fact that it is legal doesn't mean it was a good idea.
If the best you can come up with to support the horrible implementation, is "at least they couldn't get sued", you are not being very convincing.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Bethesda will set up a system so they don't have to use steam for mod this. I fully expect the next elder scrolls game to have it.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
So when I saidNotice that I haven't defended Bethesda, lol.
It's a word! It's used very often in a lot of sentences.
In this instance I use this definition, so you don't get confused.
Anyway, some modders go far and beyond what the game offers and actually makes the game more fun, or better. I feel that they do deserve a bit of love from us. That's what I feel, after years growing up playing TF, CS, Dota, etc.
Modders have made things interesting for gamers, so for me, since I do have money to spend, I don't mind giving some their dues
You agree? Excellent. You're free to spend your money how you wish and to feel all warm inside about supporting modders. But it isn't the modders spearheading this. It's the companies. You really think the modding community will thrive under this new model? Mkay. Feel free to bookmark the posts I've made in this thread and weep in 3 years when the PC modding community has been monetized and hacked to pieces, just like DLC invading every conceivable game has in the last decade or so.
Me? I'll remember fondly the days when mods where an expression of the community's love for a game.
Vallen Valiant
Banned
And I fully expect any barrier to be cracked. Bethesda is NOT very good at writing code, they would never be able to keep free mods out because they are sloppy. The only way they could police it is if they abandon PC all together. At which point they lose the mod money anyway.
Screw Bethesda then, other developers can give a better cut.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Oh man.
I don't know. I have been through the days of shareware, PC is dead, DLC being the devil, micro transactions being the devil, F2P games being the devil, DRM ushering the dark days of gaming, piracy ushering the dark days of gaming too come to think of it.
I'm not sure how I'll manage through these dark times, but I'll try. Really.
The world didn't end, but it's not like most of those things aren't/weren't shitty.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
I guess after years growing up playing TF, CS, Dota, etc. maybe you've been inoculated to it? I dunno. Since those games you mentioned all began with the mod community and then were snapped up by a company, seems like perhaps you've supported the idea of paid mods for years now. You're welcome to have your own perspective. However, I still think paid mods (as in, paying for fan-made add-ons, not a mod that was turned into a fully-fledged game) will have a negative effect on the community. Remember the fallout surrounding paid custom maps for Starcraft 2? Why is this idea even a little bit different?
I think it is odd to welcome a paid modding scheme with such open arms without critiquing it, at least a little bit. The modding community is great because it is driven by creativity, curiosity, talent, and the love of the game. But sure, let's add corporate sponsorship and money into the mix. I'm SUUUUUURE this has never produced negative results in the past...
hope so