SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
The W7 start menu search bar is basically a cut down version of the Launchy app, which was awesome.
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PCGamesN: "Why I'm uninstalling Windows 8"
- Thread starter alexandros
- Start date
I haven't used the start menu for anything but search since I used XP way back in 2005 or so. I do use explorer a lot though (libraries that came in 7 are a godsend btw). I use search (files) for hard to find stuff, mainly things that are not in my libraries. Same with applications and settings, stuff that is not pinned to my taskbar I search for.
the easiest way to ignore it is, handily, also the cheapest.
Yes. And you know what I like about the start menu? When I click on it, my arrow is an ant's asshole away from most of the programs, files, or commands I need to access. Heck, I don't even need to look at the start menu to access what I know is there. Double heck, I can hit the window key and type most the program names I need to access while reading something else entirely.
Metro does none of that, unfortunately. Best case scenario is if I memorize where all the tiles are, I'll only have to have my concentration broken by metro for only a couple of seconds. Unless I want to right click anything. Or search. Or look in my all apps section.
I have been running the release candidate of Windows 8 on my main desktop for the past few weeks and I haven't run into any issues with the Metro UI. Much like in Windows 7, all of the programs I use daily are pinned to the taskbar. Windows 8's improved boot times and multi-monitor support are enough reasons for me to buy the upgrade disc come October.
lol
Yup, i'd buy it if it had that.
I want absolutely nothing to do with Metro and Microsoft's philosophy that it is okay or preferable to take over 100% of my screen real estate just to show a menu with big blocks of empty space or a mail or twitter client. It just makes absolutely no sense on a desktop, and it cheapens the package simply by being mandatory.
I disagree with all of his criticisms.
If you use the Start screen just to start desktop apps, it's fine so long as you don't install really complex enterprise suites (messes up all apps with various files that aren't apps).
The Desktop is better. Ribbon allows of contextual interface with devices rather than circling around and going to start>control panel>Something something>Something more>goal.
The mail and calendar apps are great. If you associate your gmail account with your microsoft account, bam instant sync. You can get to Calendar/Mail in two clicks that are more muscle memory. Way faster than going to a browser, a bookmark, then clicking calendar. Calendar also reminds you when you need to do shit rather than it dangling in gmail land.
The People app is very useful even if you don't use social media much. It instantly imports your contacts and media into Windows libraries.
Windows 8 has extended displays, which makes the quicklaunch bar go on both monitors making it easier to remote desktop while using your local desktop.
Auto-syncing settings for all PCs via cloud with your MS account is awesome for people with multiple PCs.
Honestly, his criticisms are nonsense.
Here are some real criticisms that aren't old man yelling at cloud:
1. UAC is mandatory for metro apps. It's fairly hidden from consumers, but not developers.
2. Hybrid reboot doesn't work for device drivers that require cold boot.
For like 10% of the market. If the market goes to OS X, I'm switching to Linux.
You're also talking about mobile OSes mostly. OS X and iOS don't meld at all like Windows 8 metro does. A big part of this OS is the ability to sync all of your devices with a universal UI that doesn't attempt to replace your existing mail and social media accounts.
If you use the Start screen just to start desktop apps, it's fine so long as you don't install really complex enterprise suites (messes up all apps with various files that aren't apps).
The Desktop is better. Ribbon allows of contextual interface with devices rather than circling around and going to start>control panel>Something something>Something more>goal.
The mail and calendar apps are great. If you associate your gmail account with your microsoft account, bam instant sync. You can get to Calendar/Mail in two clicks that are more muscle memory. Way faster than going to a browser, a bookmark, then clicking calendar. Calendar also reminds you when you need to do shit rather than it dangling in gmail land.
The People app is very useful even if you don't use social media much. It instantly imports your contacts and media into Windows libraries.
Windows 8 has extended displays, which makes the quicklaunch bar go on both monitors making it easier to remote desktop while using your local desktop.
Auto-syncing settings for all PCs via cloud with your MS account is awesome for people with multiple PCs.
Honestly, his criticisms are nonsense.
Here are some real criticisms that aren't old man yelling at cloud:
1. UAC is mandatory for metro apps. It's fairly hidden from consumers, but not developers.
2. Hybrid reboot doesn't work for device drivers that require cold boot.
For like 10% of the market. If the market goes to OS X, I'm switching to Linux.
You're also talking about mobile OSes mostly. OS X and iOS don't meld at all like Windows 8 metro does. A big part of this OS is the ability to sync all of your devices with a universal UI that doesn't attempt to replace your existing mail and social media accounts.
AtomicShroom
Member
I would say every version of Windows ever needs this option. I need to, with one click, inform Windows that I'm a power user and that it needs to turn off all the noob-proof bullcrap.
There's just way too many configs/options I need to change whenever I end up on a new Windows machine that's not under my control.
you better pray that metro doesn't catch on.
SuicideUZI
Member
If MS just gave the option of having the traditional start menu and starting in desktop mode then basically no one would have an issue upgrading and would probably do it just for the added functionality like the updated drive extender built into Win8
The fact that they are forcing Metro on everyone without an option they are just shooting themselves in the foot because most businesses and non-computer savvy people aren't going to want it
The fact that they are forcing Metro on everyone without an option they are just shooting themselves in the foot because most businesses and non-computer savvy people aren't going to want it
Why? The desktop is Windows 7 plus a ton of improvements. It's just annoying because you actually have to program with UAC enabled, but the OS isn't locked down.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Hehe, the horror of what installing Visual Studio 2010 Ultimate did to my Start Screen will haunt my nightmares for months
oneils
Member
Ok, for those who have used Windows 8.
Can I still switch between programs using only one click of the mouse? Right now on Windows 7 desktop, I can see everything that is currently open just by glancing at the task bar. Then I can switch to another open program simply by clicking on it.
Is this still possible in Windows 8? If so, I will survive the upgrade.
(From all of the hatin' articles out there, it is hard for me to tell if this is still possible).
Can I still switch between programs using only one click of the mouse? Right now on Windows 7 desktop, I can see everything that is currently open just by glancing at the task bar. Then I can switch to another open program simply by clicking on it.
Is this still possible in Windows 8? If so, I will survive the upgrade.
(From all of the hatin' articles out there, it is hard for me to tell if this is still possible).
bonesmccoy
Banned
What exactly is 'PCGamesN'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxmIsv88xO4
This has been my own experience watching every older worker in my office - they've been trained to use the Start button so they don't know what to do when it's gone.
lastflowers
Banned
[Disclosure, work on WP at MS]. This article is silly. The guy doesn't have to use any of the W8 apps if he doesn't want to. Can go straight to desktop and use any browser/video player he wants. What a silly, silly article.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
saltywalrus
Member
Is there a Windows 8 jailbreak scene yet? Something similar to Quasar on iOS (window based multitasking) would be cool.
Yes, as long as you never use a metro program. Just change all the windows defaults to non-metro programs and you should be set, I think.
It's not fud at all. Windows 8 is shit.
There is always two questions that come to my mind when thinking about windows 8 on the desktop (strictly the desktop): who is it made for and what problems does it solve.
As a desktop OS, it appears to be made for nobody. It's like they designed it just to piss away their market share. It's less user friendly on the desktop relative to windows 7. It's far less pragmatic than windows 7 which means its not designed for power or enterprise users.
It doesn't solve any problems but instead adds problems to almost every aspect of the OS.
It doesn't streamline anything. It doesn't make anything simpler. It doesn't make it more powerful or flexible.
so ultimately both questions lead up up to asking one more question: why does it exist?
Ignorance isn't data, either.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
It's interesting that we are in an election year and I've been feeling very dishearten by how shamelessly politicians have been playing to the lowest hanging fruits with lies that sound so simple that people just won't bother to verify them. I'm able to draw a line between what's going on in the political space to the reception of Windows 8. The part that I find confusing is whose agenda is being pushed that would cause others to so blatantly mislead the populous. It's easier to see, for example, Gabe Newell's motivations for his stance on the product than it is to see some blogger's motivation whose sole goal is to push content. After thinking about it for a while I realized we are looking at a snowball effect at the cultural zeitgeist level of people worried about the unfamiliar and others acting as catalysts to further allow the worry to grow simply for the purpose of having a larger group to feed content to. Regardless of whether the content is negative or positive or even true or false, as long as they're able to stoke that fire, the rewards to those who feed into it is simply reaped and because this is a phenomenon at the social zeitgeist level, a sense of responsibility can be dismissed because peoples will not really dig deeper as long as they're engaged with content; before the need to question the facts presented, they've moved on to something else.
Microsoft has talked about in the their Building Windows 8 blog about the drastic decrease in people clicking the start menu button in Windows 7 because of the introduction of the new taskbar.
oneils
Member
That would be good. As long as I have that, I'm good. I really do not like using keyboard shortcuts. I prefer to use the mouse.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Metro?
We both know the answer to that, Microsoft need a Touch-centric UI and an App Store for tablets and other "Computing devices", and, importantly, an already established userbase/platform to launch it / sell it to.
No PC user is going to need a touch interface for their desktop PC for at least 5 years, Metro wasn't about what the user needs, Metro was about what Microsoft needs, plain and simple.
toddhunter
Member
It exists because Microsoft need to do something. They slapped a new menu (really a store because everybody uses the taskbar) on 7 and incremented the number.
They will now refine metro, fix the ui quibbles and call it 9.
Normally I would be pretty negative on this but at least the price is cheap, so no real harm done.
dragonelite
Member
Jep I use the taskbar bar more. Only time I used start was for cmd to check ping and network information to tackle socket programming.
David H Wong
Banned
The other possibility is that Windows 8 actually does suck.
The metro UI is less big of a deal than you make it up to be, end of story. Just because you say enterprise users it doesn't mean they're good at efficiency, there are plenty of normal users in the enterprise who are terrible at using their computers. A number of people in enterprise are also bringing their iPads to work, and that's not because it makes them more efficient.
I'm sure you know why they made Windows 8. So it's not for you, and if they did make a windows 8 just for you, a different group of people will still complain.
People will find out soon enough that plopping down grandma in front of Windows 8 is not a realistic simulation of what people will actually see of Windows 8 on October 26th.
Firstly, most of these "experiments" were done on the Release Preview, where the intro tutorial video didn't exist to give people any hints about how to use the OS. The video has been extensively tested with real people as a pretty good way to keep people from getting stuck.
Secondly, marketing. There has been 0 marketing of Windows 8 so far. Enthusiasts like to think the verdict is in, the PR response is done, and it's time to move on, but the reality of the matter is that people know literally nothing about Windows 8. Real, honest to god people. The 99.9% of the world. That will change in the next 2 months before release, significantly.
Thirdly, and most importantly, grandma isn't going to go and install Windows 8 on her existing PC. She's going to go out and buy something new, build from the ground-up with the OS in mind, with the education included to teach her how to do simple things like "swipe in from the sides" or "move your mouse to the corners".
chickdigger802
Banned
alright give it to me real.
Will install this on my main rig as soon my lazy school decides to renew my dreamspark prem.
Will i be super frustrated and confused and scared for 1-2hrs when i figure out whats new what i need to relearn, new hotkeys and rearrange stuff, and then be perfectly fine until windows 9?
Will install this on my main rig as soon my lazy school decides to renew my dreamspark prem.
Will i be super frustrated and confused and scared for 1-2hrs when i figure out whats new what i need to relearn, new hotkeys and rearrange stuff, and then be perfectly fine until windows 9?
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
Windows 8 is a very disruptive technology. This fact will be made clear when you see the PC industry move forward in the following areas:
- External Graphics Cards
- Tablet Convertables
- Battery Life
- Sensor-based Computing
- Network Ubiquity
- Multi-screen Computing
This. I think Metro and the Desktop could work together very well if it was unified and integrated well. As it stands, the transition is just so jarring between Metro and Desktop. They're so totally separate from each other, they operate way too differently, it's like going from a Tablet OS to a Desktop OS. It's crap. It's not smooth or intuitive at all.
I really liked the Metro mockups that people made of integrating with the desktop, only Microsoft isn't anywhere near that level of sophistication yet.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011/10/03/evolving-the-start-menu.aspxHow is the Start menu used?
Now that weve briefly discussed the history of the Start menu, lets discover how people are actually using it. We thought it would be interesting to see how the usage of the menu has changed over time. Figure 3 reveals the change in Start menu usage across the two versions of Windows.
Fig 3: Change in Start menu feature usage between Windows Vista and Windows 7
It is striking to see how dramatically different the use of the Start menu is in Windows Vista vs. Windows 7. Some of the Special Folders (what we call those items on the right side of the menu) dropped in use by over 50%. Likewise, people accessed pinned items on the Start menu half as often in Windows 7 than they did in Vista. People also access All Programs and the MFU far less often. Finally, we see an 11% drop in how often people are opening the Start menu at all. While 11% may seem like a small number at first, across our hundreds of millions of customers it is eye opening to see such a drop for a universally recognizable element of the Windows interface. Were not talking about some hidden setting that is tweaked by a minority of peoplewere talking about a fundamental piece of Windows that people are using less and less.
So why the change in how people are using the Start menu? Heres a hintit has something to do with that bar at the bottom of your screen that was introduced in Windows 7.
The Start bar
The evolution of the Windows taskbar directly impacted the Start menu. What once was locked behind a menu suddenly came closer to you. The most obvious advancements were the introduction of Quick Launch by Internet Explorer 4.0s Windows Desktop Update in 1997, as well as the more recent taskbar pinning in Windows 7.
Interesting side story: did you know that Quick Launch was initially disabled by default in Windows XP because some people believed the MFU list and pinning in the Start menu would suffice? We saw a volume of evidence to the contrary, and so we reversed the decision (though back then, the data upon which we based these decisions was limited, so we don't really know what a broad variety of customers were doing). What we took away from this was that it was important for you to be able to designate what apps you care about, see them all in one place, and have them be one click away, rather than trying to guess what is important through software heuristics or having important items mixed with less important items.
To really bring this all home, lets take a look at where people are pinning their apps. Figure 4 reveals that 85% of people have three or more items pinned to the taskbar compared to a mere 23% who have the same number pinned to the Start menu. Although the taskbar and Start menu have different pinned defaults, many people do customize both of them when they want to. The message is clear that the majority of people want most of their apps on the taskbar rather than having to dig into Start.
Fig 4: Number of pinned apps on the Start menu (top) vs. on the taskbar (bottom)
We also know that enthusiasts in particular use their Windows 7 taskbar even more than the Start menu. Keyboard shortcuts like Win + <n> (where n corresponds to the sequence of an application icon on the taskbar) make it even faster for the keyboard experts to instantly launch and switch with the taskbar (and those shortcuts continue to work in Windows 8). When we visit IT pros, its not uncommon for us to see a taskbar filled with icons for standard corporate desktops. We even see items like Control Panel pinned to the taskbar to save people a trip to Start. Pinning is also increasing in popularly because you can now also pin websites to your taskbar with IE 9. Fortunately, theres plenty of room on the taskbareven at 1024x768 the taskbar can hold 22 small icons. Add the power of Jump lists, and theoretically, you can also have access to 220 files, folders, and sites at that same resolution! This means that for those who wish to just use desktop apps, the taskbar provides the room to quickly access the things you need every day without going to the Start menu.
Speaking of Jump lists, weve seen also how pinning Explorer by default to the taskbar and populating its Jump list with common folders makes it even easier to access system folders like Documents (not surprisingly, use of Documents in Start has also dropped, as shown above).
In summary, the taskbar has evolved to replace many aspects of the Start menu. You can even say the taskbar reveals many of the weaknesses of the Start menu and that the menu is no longer as valuable as it once was long ago. Search and access to All Programs are still unique strengths of the Start menu that we know you depend upon, but when it comes to the apps you use every day, one-click access from the taskbar is hard to beat. You, and many like you, are the ones who gave us this strong feedback over the years, which pushed us to make the taskbar a powerful primary launcher and switcher for the desktop. In fact, we sometimes even referred to the taskbar in Windows 7 as the Start bar, since it became clear that most people now start with the bar, rather than with the menu.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
I can confidently speak to the fact that it doesn't and I'm a "power-user" saying it. I can see the tree and the forest.
Are you guys going to have more ads within metro apps?
I love your News app. Very clean, high res, utilizes the entire monitor. But it also seems to lack advertisements completely. Is it going to keep the feel of a newspaper, or is it going to have dancing leprechauns like weather.com?
toddhunter
Member
You will boot it all up, go "what is all this shit?" realise you can just go to the desktop and everything is still there the same and carry on. You might take the time to delete/turn off everything from metro if you have it.
Oh and you might google how to shut it down (alt+f4 is my method now)
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Grandma also doesn't ring the shop/vendor when she has a problem, she rings me, and if she has Windows 8 on her PC she's gonna find herself shit-outta-luck, or back on Win 7.
I'm going to have to agree with this. You know what's a problem? When you install a program and it ends up in some crazy hidden folder (or not in a folder at all) in the start menu. People are not as good with computers as we think. Besides my friends who game, every. single. person. I know is awful with them. If it's not right easy to find, they wont. All that needs to be done is change the start menu so programs are auto sorted in a better manner. Change the file browser so things are organized easier. Completely redefining the interface and removing features was not the right step.
Don't let programs install themselves to a hidden app data folder. Don't make important common files go to hidden folders. Don't spread out files/folder in the obtuse way of (x86)/non-(x86) program files. Build a shell that consolidates, organizes, and makes these things easier for users to fine, even if the original file system remains underneath.
While I love the classic start folder, I'll admit it's a mess if you don't manually do care for it yourself. That's were their focus should be on. Make an easy customizable drag and drop start menu.
I don't work on the apps so I don't know their plans, but hopefully not. What I do know is that there are strict policies forbidding the use of ads on live tiles and other horrible ways, so there's that at least:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh694083.aspx
Section 2
I think its the right direction. The standard desktop is the outlier when compared to almost every other gadget with a gui. Now the desktop somewhat matches the rest of devices in peoples lives (phones tablets anything with a touch interface).
The problem I have is everything being funneled through the app market. It is a great idea for the standard user if MS can some how cut out spyware/malware in the approval process but for the regular everyday user that can navigate and find useful stuff on the internet without worrying about security problems it would be the end of the world if suddenly MS decides the Windows RT model of "ONLY FROM THE MARKET" became standard.
The problem I have is everything being funneled through the app market. It is a great idea for the standard user if MS can some how cut out spyware/malware in the approval process but for the regular everyday user that can navigate and find useful stuff on the internet without worrying about security problems it would be the end of the world if suddenly MS decides the Windows RT model of "ONLY FROM THE MARKET" became standard.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
This is accurate. I just don't like it being full screen. When I want to do an applicatioon search I don't know why I need something that takes up the entire screen. Its jarring and unnecessary.
Kabuki Quantum Lover
Member
Every time that start menu article is posted, I'm reminded why I dislike the direction Windows is going in. I use that menu all the fucking time. The Metro interface is not an adequate replacement for it. It just isn't, not in its current form.
I'll keep my forty bucks for something else.
I'll keep my forty bucks for something else.
all of the keyboard shortcuts in windows 8 are the same, they just added some more. There is a time period where you need to get used to it though just like any new OS. The start screen/desktop transition felt very weird to me the first day or two, I don't even notice it anymore.
the desktop will still be part of Windows for probably at least 10-15 years (if not forever) so you won't have to worry about having a completely closed market, but yeah I don't like the idea of having one store.
We'll see how long this policy lasts. I hate how pessimistic I am about this OS. Maybe it'll launch and everything will be fine, but Microsoft wanting to leverage into the tablet / phone market is so shamelessly transparent, it's like they don't give a shit about anything else.
Why would you not pin it to the task bar??? And surely either on the start menu or the start screen searching for an app shouldn't take more than 2 seconds