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[DocSeuss]

How does alt-tab function in Windows 8?

And how are you gonna navigate to steam? Doubling clicking on tiny icons from 10 feet away? Metro is better for launching applications from far away. The Steam TV interface will only compliment it.


No, Vista was bad. Because it had driver issues, crashes.

Win 8 is incredibly solid... Even if you just use desktop. It's also got desktop improvements like better mass file movement/copying.

Vista was actually pretty great, or were you not there for XP or 2000 on launch? Nvidia got their shit together and the problems stopped. By the time SP1 came out, as long as you'd figured out how to disable UAC, Vista was a rather nice OS, much like 2000 before it--it even used less RAM than my XP box did, and performed better. In fact, of this century's OSes, it's still the lightest one I ran, 2000 aside.

Plus, the black/blue theme just looked a lot better than XP's Playdough approach.

Don't get me wrong--Vista had its problems, but it was universally loathed for reasons that were mostly stupid. It was a case of things getting blown out of proportion; I had people who were telling me about all these things it supposedly did that were so horrible, and, having owned a Vista machine for over a year at that point, I was pretty amused/frustrated to hear about a wide variety of issues or things Vista supposedly did that I had never once encountered.

Windows 7 was really just Vista SP2. Oh, remember how XP was basically horrible before SP2? Same thing with Vista, really. Windows 7 isn't that much different--some under-the-hood stuff has changed, and they added the idiotic pin system/messed up Windows Explorer/made quicklaunch a pain in the ass to find--but other than that, it's basically Vista. It didn't have the driver issues and crashes of Windows Vista because, well, it wasn't all-new architecture.

 

[teh_pwn]

vs.

I just.. dont. see. the point.

That start screen you're quoting looks nothing like what RTM does. That looks like an intentionally butchered dev or consumer preview (like alpha/beta stuff hacked apart).

If you organize the start screen to your taste, it's sort of like a combination of:
1. Browser bookmark bar
2. Quicklaunch bar
3. Metro specific apps

You could have a column for News (News, Weather, Finance, 3rd party News apps), a column for media (Mail, Calendar, Pictures, People, Desktop), a column for a specific vendor's apps (MS Office for instance).

Once you do this, it becomes a combination of muscle and visual memory. It destroys having these fragmented in different areas in the OS that are arbitrarily placed. With cloud sync all of your PCs can have the same positioning.

By the way, you get to all apps by CTL+TAB I think. Or just type it in and hit enter. If you want Paint, you type "Paint", not All Programs>Accessories>Paint. You could do this with earlier versions of Windows.

How does alt-tab function in Windows 8?

Yes. But metro specific apps you go to the top left corner.

 

[TheSeks]

That's pretty much my experience with running the Preview Release in a VM in a nutshull. Metro is not meant for desktops. It removes functionality my computer running Windows 7 has. When will Microsoft wake up to this?

Never it seems since they shoehorned it into the X-box.

 

[jagowar]

I'm seeing the screenshots here of the Metro UI, but what does it look like when you have an app open, like the browser, or email? Where is the taskbar or something of its equivalent so that you can easily glance over what windows and apps you have open, and which have notifications and other updates?

Everything is using the edges now.... top and bottom are for in app stuff and the left and right are for os wide stuff (left is multitasking and right is the charms)

 

[yogloo]

I don't know why but I'm seeing a pattern here.

Windows 95 (not sure about this one) - Windows 98 (was popular) - Windows windows millenium (avoided) - Windows XP (extremely popular) > Windows Vista (avoided) > Windows 7 (popular) > Windows 8 (avoided)

I'm basing this on incremental upgrades and not premade pc purchases.

Why does everyone ignore windows 2000 which is very good?

 

[antitrop]

Why does everyone ignore windows 2000 which is very good?

For the same reason that Windows NT wasn't mentioned either. Windows 2000 the final iteration of Windows NT, primarily targeted towards the business user.

Windows 2000 and Windows ME came out at the same time, with ME being targeted as the standard product for the average home user. As we all know, Windows ME was the worst iteration of Windows that has ever been released to market. I remember running it for a short time and going 5 hours or more without a BSOD was an accomplishment. Just double clicking an EXE would sometimes cause a BSOD, even within an hour of a fresh boot, it was so bad that I think people don't even remember in 2012 how bad it actually was.

Your point is correct, though. Windows 2000 was actually a good OS. Unless you were a gamer, then it sucked: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=970855

And seeing as how GAF is a gaming forum, most of us probably didn't even bother with 2000. I know I didn't.

 

[f0lken]

Why does everyone ignore windows 2000 which is very good?

For the same reason everyone forgets how awfull was XP without services packs, or how good Vista was with them

 

[teh_pwn]

Why does everyone ignore windows 2000 which is very good?

People are forcing patterns.

95 was very popular.

XP initial release sucked balls. Remember windows messaging service? Free Viagra DERP DERP DERP. And that reboot in 30 seconds (or minutes?) exploit? XP was garbage until SP1. Still people use it and then complain about it not working with plug and play with modern hardware.

 

[lowrider007]

I see a few people are saying if you ignore metro it's the same as Win7, then what's the point in upgrading then if we are trying to get Win8 to be the same as Win7?

Unless your a fan of the metro interface I really don't know what the benefit of Win8 over Win7 is?

 

[jagowar]

I see a few people are saying if you ignore metro it's the same as Win7, then what's the point in upgrading then if we are trying to get Win8 to be the same as Win7?

Unless your a fan of the metro interface I really don't now what's the benefit are in Win8 over Win7?

Agreed.... that's part of the problem though.... you have all these people trying desperately to make win8 work like win7 because they think metro is not as efficient as win7 was (when its actually not true but they don't want to hear it).... metro is infact awesome even on my desktop once you learn it. Then these people also complain the loudest because they can't make win8 work like win7.

Metro is the future and that is just a fact.... the desktop is not coming back as anything more than a legacy launcher and all these hacks are just that.... hacks to delay learning metro. If they were smart they would just stick with win7 and never upgrade.

 

[teh_pwn]

I see a few people are saying if you ignore metro it's the same as Win7, then what's the point in upgrading then if we are trying to get Win8 to be the same as Win7?

Unless your a fan of the metro interface I really don't now what's the benefit are in Win8 over Win7?

It's not the same literally, just familiar enough to use for win7 users. Ribbon makes existing windows settings and features contextually in place rather than dangling in some ancient utility off somewhere else. That's a huge improvement.

Performance is better, especially with media.

Multi-monitor support is much better if you remote into machines while working locally.

Remote desktop seems faster (remotely working is crazy fast, the visual quality is very responsive with desktop backgrounds enabled...they did something to optimize it).

Task manager shows you more relevant stuff. I think you could verify an overclock in the CPU tab because they show you the actual CPU frequency with turboboost.


But here's a complaint because I don't want to just praise:
Windows media player. I'm considering installing WMP classic. Why?
1. I have to click the pause button in the center to pause? Why? Why Can't I just click anywhere in the screen that's empty?
2. Dragging the current time of the video seems inaccurate. There's this massive bubble thing, not sure how to seek properly.
3. I accidentally hit a back button on my mouse, and I went to some Xbox video place. Couldn't figure out how to get back, so I had to close that app and restart the video which brings me back to #2.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

Metro is the future and that is just a fact.... the desktop is not coming back as anything more than a legacy launcher

So can I get Metro Office?

 

[grimshawish]

I see a few people are saying if you ignore metro it's the same as Win7, then what's the point in upgrading then if we are trying to get Win8 to be the same as Win7?

Unless your a fan of the metro interface I really don't know what the benefit of Win8 over Win7 is?

Quite - its why Win8 is so bizzare, surely its just Windows Touch?

Win7 has a great interface and a lot of neat features. Its a great OS and makes up for the horror show that was Windows Vista.

Win8 just feels too soon, and isn't very useful for non-touch devices, adding as far as I can tell; no additional features. Theres no added value so am not going to pay for it and am not sure why a company would pay for Win8 or anyone. Its all very strange.

 

[f0lken]

So can I get Metro Office?

OneNoteMX is a proof of concept (and a damn good one) of the future Metro Office

 

[BocoDragon]

I see a few people are saying if you ignore metro it's the same as Win7, then what's the point in upgrading then if we are trying to get Win8 to be the same as Win7?

Unless your a fan of the metro interface I really don't know what the benefit of Win8 over Win7 is?

Here's how the conversation goes:

Person 1: It has Metro! An entirely different operating environment! Cool right?

Person 2: No, I don't want that.

Person 1: Well IF you don't want that, you don't need to use it. It can do everything Win 7 can!

Person 3: If you are saying you can ignore Metro.. what's the point of it?

The thing is, there's a million naysayers who don't want changes... but Metro is actually a good feature, and quite a value-add for many people . Don't take all these people saying "you don't have to use it" as evidence that Metro should be ignored. Only that it can be ignored.... if you're that kind of conservative Windows fan who doesn't need anything new.

 

[Reg]

so how much is this thing going to retail for?

 

[Htown]

You're Being Lied To: Windows 8 Isn't Bad For Gaming

Reminds me of this other Gawker-based gem.

 

[Exuro]

Only that it can be ignored.... if you're that kind of conservative Windows fan who doesn't need anything new.

You're making assumptions here. Just because someone wants to ignore Metro doesn't mean they don't want new features. For example I personally love the idea of live tiles. I don't like that they're only available in Metro though.

 

[Treemonkeys]

For the same reason that Windows NT wasn't mentioned either. Windows 2000 the final iteration of Windows NT, primarily targeted towards the business user.

Windows 2000 and Windows ME came out at the same time, with ME being targeted as the standard product for the average home user. As we all know, Windows ME was the worst iteration of Windows that has ever been released to market. I remember running it for a short time and going 5 hours or more without a BSOD was an accomplishment. Just double clicking an EXE would sometimes cause a BSOD, even within an hour of a fresh boot, it was so bad that I think people don't even remember in 2012 how bad it actually was.

Your point is correct, though. Windows 2000 was actually a good OS. Unless you were a gamer, then it sucked: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=970855

And seeing as how GAF is a gaming forum, most of us probably didn't even bother with 2000. I know I didn't.

Windows 2000 had far more in common with XP than it did with NT until they discontinued support on 2000 while continuing to update XP. 2000 was also a god tier OS, even for gaming.

 

[A Twisty Fluken]

OneNoteMX is a proof of concept (and a damn good one) of the future Metro Office

So that's a no, then.

 

[jagowar]

Win8 just feels too soon, and isn't very useful for non-touch devices, adding as far as I can tell; no additional features. There's no added value so am not going to pay for it and am not sure why a company would pay for Win8 or anyone. Its all very strange.

There is a ton of new stuff on the metro side....
The new app model brings a bunch of improvements:
setup/uninstall is vastly improved (no more debugging why certain apps didn't install properly or dependencies on other things)
Performance, Battery Life and Security in metro is superior to the desktop because apps are managed.
Apps can have states saved so you don't need to close apps in metro.
Making app designers think about reformatting their apps into the smaller side view and making them think about a universal app design to use across multiple device types.

Contracts (leverages things like direct skydrive or your corp network access within apps and eventually other services... this will be a much bigger deal once more 3rd party apps utilize it). Even right now skydrive is a gamechanger in the way it integrates with windows 8 (far more than just an app you are used to and I can see when dropbox, gdrive, Netflix, hbo, sharepoint, etc are all using contracts will really be something special)
Utilizing the online account (which syncs settings across computers and really gives you a worldwide domain)
The live tiles (some make better use than others) but games especially are making really good use of the live tiles (showing ingame stats) and this will only get more useful as more info is allowed on the live tile.

 

[BocoDragon]

You're making assumptions here. Just because someone wants to ignore Metro doesn't mean they don't want new features.

I didn't say that. I know you'd welcome tweaks to a Win 7-style desktop environment. But clearly there is something about changing the operating model altogether that is distasteful to a lot of people. "Don't want it, don't need it".

 

[f0lken]

So that's a no, then.

Not right now, but its naive to think that Office will stay only desktop forever

 

[Treemonkeys]

I didn't say that. I know you'd welcome tweaks to a Win 7-style desktop environment. But clearly there is something about changing the operating model altogether that is distasteful to a lot of people. "Don't want it, don't need it".

The changes that came with the Windows 7 UI were immediately welcomed by me, because I felt they added functionality and productivity. There is not a single reason I could find to use the metro interface outside of using it on a touch screen. Windows 8 is going to have to provide some pretty sizable performance increases or other tangible benefits for me to load it up and then do my best to make the UI more like Windows 7, it doesn't have that right now.

 

[Totakeke]

Ok, ok. So Windows 8 will allow for more games to come to PC because it allows for iPad-like functionality on tablets. iPad games or port of games to iPad will have a much higher probability of being ported to Windows than ever before. People didn't think of getting most iPad games on the PC and now there's a much bigger chance. So this will increase the number of games available on the PC for the general consumer.

Now go turn that around to be a bad thing.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Ok, ok. So Windows 8 will allow for more games to come to PC because it allows for iPad-like functionality on tablets. iPad games or port of games to iPad will have a much higher probability of being ported to Windows than ever before. People didn't think of getting most iPad games on the PC and now there's a much bigger chance. So this will increase the number of games available on the PC for the general consumer.

Now go turn that around to be a bad thing.

It will allow for more games when they discontinue DirectX updates for Win 7. Technologically there is really no reason I can see that would allow games to be easier ported to it over Win 7 or even Vista, but if it ends up with a decent tablet install base that would probably encourage it.

 

[Totakeke]

It will allow for more games when they discontinue DirectX updates for Win 7. Technologically there is really no reason I can see that would allow games to be easier ported to it over Win 7 or even Vista, but if it ends up with a decent tablet install base that would probably encourage it.

Yes, a decent tablet install base. Without metro that would not be possible.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Yes, a decent tablet install base. Without metro that would not be possible.

I wonder if by releasing a desktop version, and all the bad press/word of mouth it is getting, is Microsoft screwing up the potential tablet install base?

 

[cgcg]

Is there a way to resize Metro apps? It's insane they have to be run at full screen at all times. Haven't found a way but if there is one it's not intuitive. A lot of people going to hate that aspect. Not to mention there's no button to close the apps. What the shit? Yea yea alt-f4, but still it's just shit design decision. Why is there no mouse gesture for Metro apps? It feels off scrolling left and right by using up and down on the mouse wheel. If you are going to shoehorn a touchscreen design on a desktop give us mouse gestures.

 

[BocoDragon]

There is not a single reason I could find to use the metro interface outside of using it on a touch screen.

Well I'll throw this out there:

I think Metro is a better application launcher than the Start button ever was. Yes, even with mouse and keyboard on a desktop.

Why should I be finding my programs through menu tree of nested folders with a tiny font and 95% junk I didn't want or need? The start button sucks for finding what I want to run!

Forget the fact that Metro is also touch-enabled and meant to push an app store: It's a better application launcher on a desktop, which lets you pin/un-pin programs you want, and rearrange them in any manner you find it appropriate.

When I use Win 8 on my desktop, I have never once missed the archaic start button. When I use Win 7 on my desktop, I often miss the ability to bring up a world of modern, internet connected apps.... and I definitely lament pecking through that 17-year old usability nightmare that was the start menu.

 

[f0lken]

Is there a way to resize Metro apps? It's insane they have to be run at full screen at all times. Haven't found a way but if there is one it's not intuitive. A lot of people going to hate that aspect. Not to mention there's no button to close the apps. What the shit? Yea yea alt-f4, but still it's just shit design decision.

The apps doesn't need to be closed, and they will have no impact on your CPU usage, and every app is required to have a "small" mode

 

[Htown]

Well I'll throw this out there:

I think Metro is a better application launcher than the Start button ever was. Yes, even with mouse and keyboard on a desktop.

Why should I be finding my programs through menu tree of nested folders with a tiny font and 95% junk I didn't want or need? The start button sucks for finding what I want to run!

Using it wrong.

The apps doesn't need to be closed, and they will have no impact on your CPU usage, and every app is required to have a "small" mode

Oh, I see. They don't need to be closed, so you shouldn't be able to close them.

 

[f0lken]

When's the last time you used Windows?



Oh, I see. They don't need to be closed, so you shouldn't be able to close them.

You can close them of course if you want, I know I close a lot of Metro apps without problems or inconveniences

 

[Treemonkeys]

Well I'll throw this out there:

I think Metro is a better application launcher than the Start button ever was. Yes, even with mouse and keyboard on a desktop.

Why should I be finding my programs through menu tree of nested folders with a tiny font and 95% junk I didn't want or need? The start button sucks for finding what I want to run!

Forget the fact that Metro is also touch-enabled and meant to push an app store: It's a better application launcher on a desktop, which lets you pin/un-pin programs you want, and rearrange them in any manner you find it appropriate.

When I use Win 8 on my desktop, I have never once missed the archaic start button. When I use Win 7 on my desktop, I often miss the ability to bring up a world of modern, internet connected apps.... and I definitely lament pecking through that 17-year old usability nightmare that was the start menu.

Between pinned items on the start menu, common programs on the start menu, and pinned items on the taskbar, I can't ever see that being an issue for me - and I can certainly get more quick access to what I need there rather than metro's incredibly inefficient usage of screen space.

 

[Totakeke]

I wonder if by releasing a desktop version, and all the bad press/word of mouth it is getting, is Microsoft screwing up the potential tablet install base?

The very negative press has only come from gaming-related outlets. Others are kind of a mixed bag. I doubt the average iPad consumer cares much of what Gabe or the Minecraft guy thinks. But these doesn't really matter in the end anyway, we'll see how big the install base and the demand for tablet apps when it gets into the hands of the general public.

 

[cgcg]

The apps doesn't need to be closed, and they will have no impact on your CPU usage, and every app is required to have a "small" mode

They still use up RAM. Some of the built-in ones are using close to 100MB running in the background. No thanks. So there really is no way to resize app window?

 

[fallagin]

You're Being Lied To: Windows 8 Isn't Bad For Gaming

Wow, this article is absolutely awful. Most peoples' complaints aren't about the actual gaming experience, but about microsoft using monopolistic practices to shut out competitors, thus harming the gaming industry as a whole. Turning windows into a closed platform would be one of the worst thing to happen to not only the gaming community but the whole software community and consumers of their products.

 

[Treemonkeys]

Wow, this article is absolutely awful.

Well, it's Gizmodo.

 

[f0lken]

They still use up RAM. Some of the built-in ones are using close to 100MB running in the background. No thanks. So is there really no way to resize app window?

Yes there is, just move your cursor up the screen and a hand will appear which you can move to the left or right to snap and resize the app

 

[BocoDragon]

When's the last time you used Windows?

I'm on a Win 7 laptop right now.

Ok, so I want to run photoshop. I click on the Start button. My eyes hunt around, was it in the last 10 programs I used? No, I guess not. So I have to go to "All programs". Then I scroll past the random applications that microsoft put at the top for whatever reason, and I hunt for the Adobe folder. Then I find the photoshop shortcut nested within. That took awhile, and in 17 years of using this, I still find it a chore.

On Win 8? Click in the bottom left corner or press the windows key. Where's Photoshop? Right there, just where I left it. A big shiny icon. It's just a glance at a homescreen, instead of a series of awful nested menus.

This start button people "need"? You don't need it. It's not good. You probably have icons pinned to your taskbar specifically to avoid the dreaded start button! And Metro? It's just a fullscreen space where you can pin programs in a similar way to the taskbar.

 

[cgcg]

Yes there is, just move your cursor up the screen and a hand will appear which you can move to the left or right to snap and resize the app

C'mon man, you know that's not what I meant. Resize like desktop apps.

You can just type in Photoshop once clicking on the Start Menu or pressing the Windows button and it'll find it for you in Windows 7. What's so hard about that?

 

[Schrade]

I'm on a Win 7 laptop right now.

Ok, so I want to run photoshop. I click on the Start button. My eyes hunt around, was it in the last 10 programs I used? No, I guess not. So I have to go to "All programs". Then I scroll past the random applications that microsoft put at the top for whatever reason, and I hunt for the Adobe folder. Then I find the photoshop shortcut nested within. That took awhile, and in 17 years of using this, I still find it a chore.

On Win 8? Click in the bottom left corner or press the windows key. Where's Photoshop? Right there, just where I left it. A big shiny icon. It's just a glance at a homescreen, instead of a series of awful nested menus.

This start button people "need"? You don't need it. It's not good. You probably have icons pinned to your taskbar specifically to avoid the dreaded start button! And Metro? It's just a fullscreen space where you can pin programs in a similar way to the taskbar.

You could pin Photoshop to the start menu, you know. That would make it two steps to get to it:

1) Click on Start Button
2) Click on Photoshop icon in the main level/pinned icons in the Start Menu.

Honestly, the defense for Windows 8 is pretty silly. It's fine if you like the interface, really. It should just be an option though and not forced.

 

[Htown]

I'm on a Win 7 laptop right now.

Ok, so I want to run photoshop. I click on the Start button. My eyes hunt around, was it in the last 10 programs I used? No, I guess not. So I have to go to "All programs". Then I scroll past the random applications that microsoft put at the top for whatever reason, and I hunt for the Adobe folder. Then I find the photoshop shortcut nested within. That took awhile, and in 17 years of using this, I still find it a chore.

You realize you can hit the start button and just type "photoshop", right?

Or pin photoshop to the start menu? Or the taskbar?

 

[BocoDragon]

You realize you can hit the start button and just type "photoshop", right?

Same with Metro, so...?

 

[f0lken]

C'mon man, you know that's not what I meant. Resize like desktop apps.

Well I tought you didn't know lol, but no, you can't which for me is not an issue but I can see why for others it could be, for me MS just needs to add 2 more sizes to the metro apps, one that takes half the screen so you can have 2 apps side by side, and a 1/4 one for 3 to 4 apps at the same time.

You realize you can hit the start button and just type "photoshop", right?

Or pin photoshop to the start menu? Or the taskbar?

Is the same on Windows 8, so it still at one click of distance, the only thing faster would be open programs or apps with your mind...

Or Kinect lol

 

[BocoDragon]

Or pin photoshop to the start menu? Or the taskbar?

So it's exactly the same as Win 8. You can pin to the Metro menu, you can pin to the taskbar.

Clearly you aren't defending the nested folder tree aspect of the Start menu, and that's literally the only thing that's gone.

I'd rather pin apps to a big rearrangeable visual space of icons rather than a little list in the bottom left corner, but that could be just me.

 

[VALIS]

but about microsoft using monopolistic practices to shut out competitors

Like?

Turning windows into a closed platform

Oh, your paranoia, you mean. Yeah, Microsoft isn't going to defeat anyone's paranoia. But I assume Windows 8 will go much in the same way Windows 7, Vista, XP, 2000, and so on did:

Certain sections of the tech community will cry that the end times are near and there goes your privacy/productivity/security/party good times.

Then that Windows version releases, sells a bunch, no one really sees these problems the doomsayers were predicting.

Repeat cycle for next version.

IF they ever lock down Windows to only run approved programs, shit will hit the fan in every direction imaginable. No one (or, very close to no one) will defend that. But right now it looks like the same doomsayers marching up and down the street that just have new keywords painted over white spots on their sandwich boards.

 

[cgcg]

What you've described is not really resizing. It's just parking ONE app to the side. I don't think you can even do that with more than one app. I honestly don't even know the point of that feature. It makes no sense. Let me tell you the lack of free resizing is going to be a huge issue. Working in tech support just about every desktop/user I see uses that feature. Screen real-estate is precious and the Metro apps just took 10 steps back.

 

[Game Guru]

So it's exactly the same as Win 8. You can pin to the Metro menu, you can pin to the taskbar.

Clearly you aren't defending the nested folder tree aspect of the Start menu, and that's literally the only thing that's gone.

I'd rather pin apps to a big rearrangeable visual space of icons rather than a little list in the bottom left corner, but that could be just me.

You know there's already a big rearrangeable visual space of icons where you can pin apps... It's called the "desktop." Seriously, does anyone not pin shortcuts of needed programs to the Desktop? I mean the actual Desktop, not the Task Bar.

 

[mavs]

For the same reason everyone forgets how awfull was XP without services packs, or how good Vista was with them

Most people (your mom, clueless person walking into Circuit City) who upgraded to XP came from 98. XP was dogshit but it was still an improvement over that, plus it usually came with new generations of hardware back when performance upgrades made a massive difference for what in today's world are the most trivial of computing tasks.