plagiarize
Banned
that doesn't translate to this way being wrong though. who is to say crowd sourcing shouldn't be possible through any more options than previously available?
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Penny Arcade Kickstarter
- Thread starter LiK
- Start date
that doesn't translate to this way being wrong though. who is to say crowd sourcing shouldn't be possible through any more options than previously available?
I feel this point has been lost in the shuffle a bit. Penny Arcade is not taking into account business expenses, budgeting out a year's worth of content, and partnering with the fans to reach that amount. They are a for profit business. Their ad partners pay them $1m annually (apparently) because that's the most they can negotiate given their site stats, and that number is, and should be, completely liquid. It keeps businesses honest. I've asked this earlier, but if their viewership increases how much more do they ask for in 2013 to compensate for growth? How do they even measure that without advertisers competing, do they just say $1m a year and that's that, and no you can't see our operating costs? I'm surprised that invested fans aren't asking for more transparency concerning bookkeeping and the way this model works in the future considering what is being asked.
That, and the fact that they've set their Kickstarter goal at $250,000 instead of the $1m that would actually ensure they get to operate ad-free for one year, are my two issues with the campaign. The jokey, minimum effort reward tiers are also pretty eye rolling, but I get that people that want to support this don't really care about rewards.
Man, this thread is embarrassing. I seriously can't believe that there's this much outrage over a plan to get rid of ads. It's like this thread was created for the sole purpose of concentrating all of NeoGAF's waja into the one place so that it can be used by podcasts and blogs who hate NeoGAF as an example for why NeoGAF is filled with some utterly reprehensible people.
Liberty4all
Banned
It's not a matter of compromising content. It's a matter of having to devote staff to the ad revenue stream (dealing with advertisers, paperwork associated with that, judging if ad content is appropriate for site, etc) ... Staff that could be better used for something more creative that directly benefits the PA community. Getting rid of ads frees up man hours ....
I know, it's unbelievable.
Shao Kahn Going Shopping
Banned
That's something that kind of bugs me as well. Is it smart to pull "ad people" and put them in a different role? They even mentioned their people initially didn't want to do it.
Would you want your accountant to start filming a webseries? I know I wouldn't.
Unless their "ad people" aren't actually trained to do that, and that's not their career.
Tylahedras
Banned
Well you should really spend your money on more important things... like pet insurance.
GamerVoice
Banned
Yeah, anybody that disagrees with you is utterly reprehensible.
Get over yourself, dLMN8R.
plagiarize
Banned
on paper, how they're valued would be changed. say they get over a million and go advert free for a year, their value will be what they can raise through kickstarter. if their readership goes up, but none of the new readers want to chip in to the kickstarter, their value won't go up... not using a kickstarter funding method anyway. they'll get what they get. they can ask for more, or not... but they'll get what they get.
if they ask for too much, they'll get nothing. so again, it's not something we really need to be concerned about.
Skepticism is not embarrassing if you can present yourself like an adult on the internet. Insulting a group of strangers as utterly reprehensible isn't really a great look either, by the way.
I see what you're saying, plagiarize. It all still feels very muddy in my opinion, but it's certainly interesting. I'd like to hear what PA's business people have to say about the idea, hopefully they'll talk about it at some point.
notworksafe
Member
Well at least one of their ad people wasn't trained to do it:
I think it's pretty reprehensible what a lot of people are doing here. They're attacking Penny Arcade (without really explaining why). Now they're attacking Child's Play? They're attacking Kickstarter.
All because of the removal of ads.
I'm not talking about people who disagree with me, I'm talking about people doing reprehensible shit like attacking the existence of charities or attacking the credibility of charities because of this Kickstarter. It's just embarrassing.
Right, because NeoGAF is the only place on the internet where Penny Aracde's "$500 for a retweet" kickstarter plan is being criticized.
Talk about waja.
plagiarize
Banned
and as already pointed out, part of the advertising revenue Penny-Arcade raises is the comics they are commissioned to write by other companies. Gabe and Tycho have to do those, and producing those is absolutely advertising.
notworksafe
Member
Well yeah...was someone trying to argue that those don't count as ads? I'd much rather see an original story from those guys than a boring shill comic.
Well, other than the Asura's Wrath picture. That was pretty funny.
David H Wong
Banned
So they're at 170K after two days, looks like they'll hit their million easily.
Good for them, it shows what a great job they've done building a dedicated fanbase. People freely gave that money, they weren't coerced or lied to or tricked. It's fans giving money to the people they're fans of, it's about as pure of a transaction as you'll ever see.
Good for them, it shows what a great job they've done building a dedicated fanbase. People freely gave that money, they weren't coerced or lied to or tricked. It's fans giving money to the people they're fans of, it's about as pure of a transaction as you'll ever see.
Liberty4all
Banned
There are a lot of web sites that have members who overreact in confusing ways, I never acted like this was the only place.
But I guess this sure is one of those places too. Apparently full of people who think that the attempt to stabilize with a new financial model that frees them from the responsibilities of advertisers is "immoral", and it casts a new light on their charity, and now apparently even that charity is worthless too.
Shao Kahn Going Shopping
Banned
Glad that was answered. They sure pay their people well.
Were there people saying that the charity is now worthless? I came to my decision long ago, it has no bearing on this Kickstarter.
Reported this for not being a project -- mainly because this Kickstarter isn't enabling PA's existence as much as it is covering operating expenses for their business (which is explicitly forbidden under the project guidelines.) I'm certain Kickstarter will ignore it, though. From Kotaku:
Guys, "pretending" is on the books for Kickstarter now! What alternate history will you dream up for your next KS project?
Guys, "pretending" is on the books for Kickstarter now! What alternate history will you dream up for your next KS project?
Chris Remo
Member
For what it's worth, Idle Thumbs never made a dime in its life prior to the Kickstarter, and while I think we would definitely call it "successful" in the sense that it achieved what we intended for it (we made a thing we thought was cool, and other people liked it, and it was fun), it cost us a bunch of money simple to allow it to exist (bandwidth, equipment, etc.). I think the chances of it supporting itself through advertising were pretty much zero. As a podcast-only affair, our site didn't get enough traffic to make banners bring in any money whatsoever, and after being gone for a year our RSS feed audience had shrunk to the point that attracting advertisers on the podcast itself would have been pretty much impossible I think--especially since podcast advertising is already so devalued.
And just to be clear, I don't say that stuff AT ALL to place us in opposition to PA or anything like that. Just pointing out that although we both arrived at Kickstarter, we surely arrived there through incredibly different lines of reasoning.
plagiarize
Banned
as someone who supported your Kickstarter with actual money compared with this PA kickstarter where i'm only supporting its right to exist on the service, don't think I intended any knock on you guys for what you did.
it'd be nice for you to make money from Thumbs, but whether or not you do or don't doesn't have any bearing on whether or not it can be a Kickstarter. you were just an example in my mind of something that used Kickstarter as a new means of funding going forwards. hopefully that's clear. thanks for chipping in and explaining the advertising situation.
I found it quite amusing how plagiarize assumed funding the Idle Thumbs podcast thru advertizing would be a cinch and you guys just didn't feel like doing that.
But at least you guys got your kickstarter money before it became a place where already profitable private companies went to fund their general operating expenses.
But at least you guys got your kickstarter money before it became a place where already profitable private companies went to fund their general operating expenses.
The Wizard
Member
Yeah I feel much happier about giving to projects like idle thumbs where the project would be unlikely to exist without crowdfunding rather kickstarters like this where you are basically replacing an already successful and profitable revenue stream.
Also I felt like the idle thumbs kickstarter rewards were very fair for the amount they were asking. The PA rewards just feel less valuable for the most part.
Also I felt like the idle thumbs kickstarter rewards were very fair for the amount they were asking. The PA rewards just feel less valuable for the most part.
Interficium
Banned
Kickstarter won't fund your life, unless your life already makes a shit-ton of money and Kickstarter can get a piece of that.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
What's the big deal about ads?
I'd rather they stick with ads than asking folks for handouts.
I'd rather they stick with ads than asking folks for handouts.
Chris Remo
Member
Oh no worries, I didn't take it as a knock.
More than fair, they were amazing. $50 got you exclusive progresscasts, a digital album of Idle Thumbs grooves, the sequel to Gravity Bone from Blendo games (!!!), a T-Shirt and more digital/physical goodies. $50 from PA means one guy will name your pet, the other will think of you during sex and chase a duck, plus you get an e-book download and a certificate.
Granted you don't go into this for the rewards, but the difference between those two packages is immense and says a lot to me about how much my money is worth to them.
NoirVisage
Banned
you have a hard time grasping a relatively simple concept. I like how you make survival seem like an activity they must dedicate intense concentration to.
notworksafe
Member
No one HAS to do anything. Settle down.
plagiarize
Banned
glad to help.
Anatoli Bacharach
Member
Why do they want to bring their podcast back (DLC)? It was a fun podcast, but don't they have the "listen to us write this comic strip" thing covered with PATV now, and much better than they ever did with the podcast?
I bet people kept asking them for it, but that's not a good reason.
I bet people kept asking them for it, but that's not a good reason.
Anatoli Bacharach
Member
What a mean-spirited thing to say.
Chris Remo
Member
Why isn't that a good reason? Aside from the heyday of the comic strip itself, that podcast was my favorite content that's ever been hosted on Penny Arcade.
They are massive turds taking advantage of their idiot fanbase. And the hubris to even attempt this/comparing themselves to public broadcasting
Well that's pretty cynical and hyperbolic. How are they taking advantage of their fanbase?
How is it "hubris" to compare this to NPR? NPR wants to be able to have a completely free, independent voice, unaffected by advertisers. They could easily survive on advertising if they wanted to since their listenership is massive, but they deliberately avoid ads as much as possible specifically so that they're not influenced by them in any way whatsoever.
Instead, they choose to host a massive fundraiser every year, are extremely vocal about it, and annoying about it, until they raise the money they need to allow them to operate without advertisers.
Chris Remo
Member
NPR is an actual non-profit organization, which is a tangible difference.
Zombie James
Banned
My main worry with this whole Kickstarter thing was that an already profitable group would jump in for an interest-free loan they'd never have to pay back coming out of people's pockets. It's one thing if you're an entrepreneur with a great idea for a product or service but can't get the project going because a bank or investor won't commit to it. That's completely understandable and I fully support crowd sourcing in situations like that. But when you're running one of the most popular web comics on the internet and hold two huge gaming conventions per year?
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and PA is actually broke or in the process of going broke. They might be losing money on PAX every year (I'm which case, why hold it?). Maybe no one buys their games or Xbox avatars. If those things were successful, why couldn't they re-invest some of that revenue towards this "no ads" goal of theirs?
But hey, maybe I'm wrong and PA is actually broke or in the process of going broke. They might be losing money on PAX every year (I'm which case, why hold it?). Maybe no one buys their games or Xbox avatars. If those things were successful, why couldn't they re-invest some of that revenue towards this "no ads" goal of theirs?
Where do you get this shit from? Pretty much anyone who's receiving chemotherapy has to be careful. Should they just sit in empty rooms and stare at the walls for 6 months?
This is true. Though I don't think Penny Arcade operates much differently. It seems like everything they make goes into paying their people decently, and most of the rest goes into Child's Play, or planning new stuff like PAX. I of course don't know their financials to really know for sure though.
Shao Kahn Going Shopping
Banned
I've turned a corner and now see the value of Child's Play. I won't tell someone that their money is better spent elsewhere, because it might not be.
MacGurcules
Member
If NPR uses it's annual drive to pay everyone's salaries, buy syndicated content, finance programs, support affiliates, etc, how is that substantially different from Penny Arcade holding a funding drive to pay their employees, handle the rent, keep the lights running, and provide content free to everyone in the process?
It's not like everyone just works for NPR for free just because it's a non-profit.
It's not like everyone just works for NPR for free just because it's a non-profit.
Yeah, PA is just like NPR. Except in every way that it isn't even fucking close in the remotest definition of the word.
Really? So to you guys non-profit is basically the same thing as 'rich-as-fuck and doing everything for a profit' because you kinda like the shit they do. Fair enough.
GhaleonQ
Member
That, of course, is what nonprofits have to disclose. As a grantor employee, it irks me when people blend the colloquial and legal definitions of "nonprofit."
That's getting off-topic, though. To be on-topic, Harmonix and Neversoft : music games :: Jerry Holkins and Mike Krahulik : crowdfunding.
Honestly that's about as fair as all the people who think this is the worst thing ever, just because they "kinda don't like" the shit they do.
Chris Remo
Member
Well yes, every company uses its revenue to pay for its operating expenses, of course. That's how the company continues to exist. But revenue is not the same as profit. Profit is what's left AFTER you pay for all those things. Non-profit organizations operate fundamentally differently to for-profit organizations. Gabe and Tycho (and maybe a couple other people like Robert) straight-up own Penny Arcade, so they benefit in a really tangible and direct way from the company's success. That's not how a non-profit works--they aren't owned by the people in charge: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-nonprofit-ownership.html
Uhh, no. I wasn't even saying it's the worst thing ever there, I was just saying it's the worst thing ever to try and paint these guys as non-profit. It's to highlight how ignorant you are of how non-profit organizations work. Period. Also, see Remo's post.
No I really never liked or hated PA, the ME3 thing was lame imo. Bit they always seemed full of themselves. Thanks for your input but its not the case, the rewards are so bad. And this entire kickstarter is way worse.