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[sflufan]

Baby game?

Play on the IGN TF2 server sometime and we'll show you a baby game!

Hell, TF2 is a REAL man's game not like that MW2 stuff that literally does reward you for DYING!

 

[Prosper]

Remove the scoreboards and you'll get people playing how they should in team based games.

 

[Psy-Phi]

Easiest way to get people to play together is rules where you die, you get to wait until the round is done before you respawn. You'll notice people are a lot more willing to stay together and work together in a game where they may have to sit and look at their team mates play for another 5-10 minutes for trying to be a lone gun.

There are still foolish players that try to go Rambo against the rest of the other team, but they generally tire of watching more than playing and leave the community.

It's not just in shooters either, give a game like Fat Princess a shot and you still see a lot of people ignoring assisting others. Probably less than in shooters though...what's funny is that in shooters it only takes a few people working together to turn their team around in CTF type play.

 

[Tain]

LOL@Draft seriously LOL baby game LOL

Compared to TFC and CS and Quake and shit I can see it, honestly!

 

[sweetvar26]

Huge Call Of Duty fan here but I hate how it is all going in the wrong direction here. Me and my friends were just talking about this stuff today.

Like any fight or argument you get with a guy, either one of them will be like lets 1v1 and we will see who is better, but guess what this is a Team based game, although nobody plays like one, it still is.

They should just take those leaderboards out of the fucking way, atleast for the multiplayer. The only way any shooter can get better atleast for online. Or may be they should integrate it in a way such that people don't get as obsessed with their K/D as much but focus on the Win/Loss ratio more?

This whole thing is just annoying and it is only going to get worse with all those kill streak rewards and bullshit, which ultimately promote more camping etc.

Whatever.

 

[TheSeks]

If you want organization join a clan. Otherwise, people will always do whatever they want. even moreso nowadays with modern shooters popping +10 on the screen for farting. Gotta get stats that make you look sexy.

Or:

Spoiler

Remove the fucking stats and points

TAH-DAH, I solved your shooting gamez.

Arm the objective? No points.

Kill a person? No points.

Kill a person and die? No Kill/Death Ratio.

"B-B-BUT WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING IF I CAN BE STYLING ON YOU?"

What's the point of playing Baseball if all you care about is your batting average?

>>KZ2<<

Funny, did we play the same Killzone 2 where RPG's are abused and used (and I did it myself last week to get the top 1% trophy) because a) the RPG turns the game into UT4.0 and b) points per kill are +1, headshots are +2, unless playing Body Count and using the BC badge, which is +3/4 headshot.

Objectives give +2.

Why go for objectives if you can simply rocket people in the face and ignore the objectives?

"BECAUSE YOU GET 1.5x BONUS ON--"

If I abuse the hell out of the RPG and kill you/enemy enough, I can pretty much have a 100 points (which I have done in KZ2 a few times) or MORE to where even if your team wins and the top scorer is 70 or so points (1.5 turns that into 100+), I'm matching you anyway.

oh god warhawk has those neverending CTF matches..no one bothers with a stragetgy somehow someone tries to get the flag and randomly ppl try to help him or shoot him down...

Yep. CTF is basically "grab flag, haul ass and hope to capture. No one gives a shit about you, and you're a free 'light my ass up' point."

Doesn't help that Zone mode (the only mode I gave a shit about in Warhawk) is DEAD. There is no servers for it the last time I played. So meh.

TF2 does the "teamwork" thing right, but it falls into the points trap. There is a few people that brag about their points, but the points aren't really for shit, so it doesn't matter.

 

[Complex Shadow]

L4D and L4D2

L4d does solve this problem buy also crates a new problem where if your not good with infected people start kicking you. And you can't learn if you can't play. But everthing else about it is awesome, I just wish people would be a bit nicer =(

 

[SapientWolf]

I'm sure it's just a recent generation thing :lol :lol


It's more of a general Western attitude in general.

Those stack.

The common suggested solution to these issues is to incentivize teamwork by granting (or removing) points, but that just highlights the real problem. Most players aren't considerate of the other people on their team. They're only in it for themselves. I can't even count how many times that people have driven away in the only vehicle, leaving me stuck at the spawn point.

I notice the same type of behavior everywhere, even from people who are considered to be role models. If people can't even comprehend the concept of teamwork in real life then there's no hope in trying for it in a video game.

 

[Drkirby]

Or:

Spoiler

Remove the fucking stats and points

TAH-DAH, I solved your shooting gamez.

Arm the objective? No points.

Kill a person? No points.

Kill a person and die? No Kill/Death Ratio.

"B-B-BUT WHAT'S THE POINT OF PLAYING IF I CAN BE STYLING ON YOU?"

What's the point of playing Baseball if all you care about is your batting average?



Funny, did we play the same Killzone 2 where RPG's are abused and used (and I did it myself last week to get the top 1% trophy) because a) the RPG turns the game into UT4.0 and b) points per kill are +1, headshots are +2, unless playing Body Count and using the BC badge, which is +3/4 headshot.

Objectives give +2.

Why go for objectives if you can simply rocket people in the face and ignore the objectives?

"BECAUSE YOU GET 1.5x BONUS ON--"

If I abuse the hell out of the RPG and kill you/enemy enough, I can pretty much have a 100 points (which I have done in KZ2 a few times) or MORE to where even if your team wins and the top scorer is 70 or so points (1.5 turns that into 100+), I'm matching you anyway.



Yep. CTF is basically "grab flag, haul ass and hope to capture. No one gives a shit about you, and you're a free 'light my ass up' point."

Doesn't help that Zone mode (the only mode I gave a shit about in Warhawk) is DEAD. There is no servers for it the last time I played. So meh.

TF2 does the "teamwork" thing right, but it falls into the points trap. There is a few people that brag about their points, but the points aren't really for shit, so it doesn't matter.

The points thing is sort of nice in that it somewhat gives an idea of team balance without having to show Kill/death.

 

[Unknown One]

Counterstrike is the closest I've seen that had the whole team involved if it's not filled with half idiots. No points but it's team money. There is K/D but it's much more satisfying to take out over half of the opposing team when you are the last one alive.

 

[TheSeks]

The points thing is sort of nice in that it somewhat gives an idea of team balance without having to show Kill/death.

And what is the point of showing "team balance?" Maybe it's just me, but showing the points doesn't mean jack. I could be healing everyone do no kills (in TF2-sense), be top of the leaderboard. Does that mean I'm "carrying the team" if we're losing? No, we're still losing.

Points doesn't mean shit. Taking them out of TF2/shooters wouldn't change a damn thing in the gameplay. It's changing the players attitude toward the games ("ZOMG MY STATS!") that needs to be slapped in the back of the head and fast.

There is K/D but it's much more satisfying to take out over half of the opposing team when you are the last one alive.

"You are the last man standing" would accomplish the same thing on the HUD. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Dan Yo]

This is why it makes me unhappy to see games not having clan support or a clan playlist in matchmaking. In team based games, players need to be ranked as a team, not as individuals.

 

[EatChildren]

The points thing is sort of nice in that it somewhat gives an idea of team balance without having to show Kill/death.

To some degree, but not for the individual. XP systems are the bane of modern day shooters. It encourages grinding, selfish play as no matter how much teamwork you use the end reward will ultimately be for you.

Killstreaks are another. "Reward the better players with easier ways to kill people, and then give them more points". Dumbest fucking shit ever.

 

[Unknown One]

People will not stop thinking this way unless it was forced upon them, so far the push towards team based gameplay is half assed. You got separate class but you also have lone wolf classes. Modes that requires and not require teamwork to be successful. The point system and leveling system make certain people points happy and to hell with the teammates he's going to get as much points as he can by himself.

Killstreaks are another. "Reward the better players with easier ways to kill people, and then give them more points". Dumbest fucking shit ever.

Indeed.

 

[KZObsessed]

Killzone 2 is the only game I've played on consoles which does it right.

It doesn't reward players for having a higher kill to death ratio. It rewards you for working as a team and completing the objectives. If you just try to camp to kill everyone, well you're just going to lose every single game you play in.

It's exactly why I LOVE the game so much. Easily the best MP experience on any console, if you exclude the lag!

You've got a variety of modes within a match. TDM, S+D, Capture the flag, Domination, and assassination. TDM is the only mode in KZ2 where your k/d ratio actually matters.

The problem with MW2 is that people care about the killstreaks. The killstreaks are a great incentive to simply sit back and camp! I do it myself. Who the fuck wants to get the bomb when no one is going to support you? So you may as well just camp and hope to get the killstreaks.

Yep the rotating objectives did wonders and also if you are a guy who just wants to go around killing people, well that helps with winning the objectives as well. Spawn Points can also help, you can pretty much direct your entire team where you want without the need for any communication. Having a good Tactician putting spawns at the correct places forces the players to spawn in the right places, and if they just want to kill well that helps the few that actually want to plant at S&D etc Being a good Tactician is almost like playing an RTS within a FPS. So awesome.

You forgot the clan matches though, being in a clan with any game is the best way to go for teamwork in a competitive online game. GAFe clan games were just pure teamwork, and you can sure count on everyone desperately trying to win the objectives when you've gambled a load of points on the outcome of a match.

Funny, did we play the same Killzone 2 where RPG's are abused and used

Assault banned is the only way to play.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

The problem is that in MW2, for example, it doesn't mean SHIT if you win or lose the round. Like someone said earlier, objective based modes are just deathmatches with different kind of setting. And I blame matchmaking for this, taking the little tactic there is to the matches and giving randomness in return.

 

[CozMick]

It's already been said but Team Fortress 2 is the ultimate team based "shooter"

Most games base the game-modes around the player, TF2 bases the player around the game-mode

And it works wonderfully.

 

[ArjanN]

To some degree, but not for the individual. XP systems are the bane of modern day shooters. It encourages grinding, selfish play as no matter how much teamwork you use the end reward will ultimately be for you.

XP systems will never go away again. Developers have realized that XP systems/achievements/unlocks are an extremely effective way to hook people, and for a multiplayer game getting people to keep coming back is the most important thing.

It all depends how you implement them though. If you only got XP for matches your team won instead of kills you made, you'd see a lot more teamwork.

But you have to realize at least half the people out there just want to run around and kill shit because that is what they enjoy, and will never use teamwork, no matter how much you push them to.

 

[Diablohead]

@MW2

When I do get a chance to play it online as I don't own it myself I always go for the cap or stop the other team getting somewhere with the item, most of the matches I play in my deaths are high but I end up top of my team due to score.

Way too many campers but since they are not doing their job, they lose

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Generation Y is the new "Me Generation" and no one is doing anything to convince them otherwise.

So how come it was exactly the same back when I used to play TF Quakeworld?

If you want organization join a clan.

Exactly.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Those stack.

The common suggested solution to these issues is to incentivize teamwork by granting (or removing) points, but that just highlights the real problem. Most players aren't considerate of the other people on their team. They're only in it for themselves. I can't even count how many times that people have driven away in the only vehicle, leaving me stuck at the spawn point.

I notice the same type of behavior everywhere, even from people who are considered to be role models. If people can't even comprehend the concept of teamwork in real life then there's no hope in trying for it in a video game.

i remember one time on Atacama Desert Rush in BC2, i spawned and was C4ing a Quad as the base moved up. there was a Cobra there, a guy hopped in and drove off... so there's me, the UAV pilot and 2 other dudes at the base and just the Quad. i hop on the Quad, beep the horn, carry one dude up to our new base, drive back, and on the way back, i see a recon running, so i pull up and carry him, and then drive back and carry the 2nd guy, who is about 1/4 of the way there, and then finally, i check the map and don't see the UAV icon, so i drive back again and pick up the UAV pilot. i really don't know how many people would do something like that...

As an individually minded gamer, I hate how team-based gameplay modes have almost completely taken over. It's discouraging me from playing online altogether, as either I'm doing the team thing and hating it, or doing my own thing and ruining someone else's fun. It sucks.

i really didn't like team games or team modes until BC mainly because in most other games, people overwhelmingly play like self-absorbed whatevers. not that it doesn't happen in BC, just less frequently...

And what is the point of showing "team balance?" Maybe it's just me, but showing the points doesn't mean jack. I could be healing everyone do no kills (in TF2-sense), be top of the leaderboard. Does that mean I'm "carrying the team" if we're losing? No, we're still losing.

Points doesn't mean shit. Taking them out of TF2/shooters wouldn't change a damn thing in the gameplay. It's changing the players attitude toward the games ("ZOMG MY STATS!") that needs to be slapped in the back of the head and fast.

"You are the last man standing" would accomplish the same thing on the HUD. But maybe that's just me.

indeed.

in BC2, on defense in Rush, if enemies keep spawning in the base, and sometimes just because of the current base design, i'll often switch to Recon and spam motion sensor balls and sit back while other people (hopefully) rack up the kills because i want to win. one game on White Pass, i had over 25 motion sensor assists and a few games i had over 20, and that's out of 75 total kills since those games, the attacking team didn't make it past the first base. and i was pretty low on the scoreboard most of those times, but the team won!

i don't even know if no stats would help, some people just want to shoot stuff and don't care about the team or winning.

 

[Metroid Killer]

I really love the way Transformice take on team play.

As a normal mouse your success rely on the Shaman, and while you are competing with the other mice to get cheese first, you get more cheese if you help out each other. The Shaman gets a higher score the more mice he gets home safely, and the mice can only get the cheese if they help out/trust the shaman. And people are really great at helping and explaining stuff to others because in the end it makes the game better.

 

[Freezie KO]

One of the reasons I like TDM is because as long as I have a positive k/d ratio, I've helped the team. I've contributed more points to my team than I have the other team. This means I can play however I'd like, and I have a clear indicator of what I contributed.

I also like that I can play slower and more methodical, which is discouraged in FFA, because it's not about k/d; it's about total points. But that's for TDM, not CTF and objective-based games.

 

[BBQMan]

Problem is games like MW2 are giving players the single mindedness no team work in those games what so ever(I played COD4 Competitively and the team work in that was minimal in public games there was none) More games like TF2 need to be made, games like these punish the fuck out of people who dont use teamwork

 

[The Technomancer]

People will not stop thinking this way unless it was forced upon them, so far the push towards team based gameplay is half assed. You got separate class but you also have lone wolf classes. Modes that requires and not require teamwork to be successful. The point system and leveling system make certain people points happy and to hell with the teammates he's going to get as much points as he can by himself.

Its getting repetitious at this point, but man I love TF2.
(Just avoid playing 2fort, since every moron and their brother just treats it like a deathmatch map)

 

[Razor210]

The immersion one experiences when he feels it's his duty to lay his life on the line protecting a hospital full of babies from terrorists soon diminishes when he's knifed in the back of the head, his corpse defiled, and greeted soon afterwards to the sounds of 10 year olds screaming in unison.

Ok, I laughed at this :lol Maybe it's cause I play on PSN that I don't hear anyone on the mics period.

Kinda happy that this sparked good discussion. Except there were some things that were brought up that I don't think would exactly work:

Friendly Fire: Please, no. I don't need to be teamkilled cause I happened to pick up a sniper rifle and someone else wants it. And besides, that idiot camping in the third bathroom stall will go back there anyways, and you taking negative points killing him doesn't really change anything. Except the amount of points you have.

Removing stats/points from objective games: At this point, the idea of leveling up is pretty much ingrained in the genre. It's somewhat impossible to remove that. Besides, it's nice to see some sort of recognition for your efforts other than winning (if developers award points beyond the capture objective/kill person near objective theme. See BC2)

No respawn: I thought the point was to make people less self-conscious and more team focused. Giving them one life pretty much makes them think about whether doing something is worth it or not.

Which is why the only way to solve this problem imo is to actually make the idea of winning attractive and something to be valued over individual stats.

 

[TheSeks]

Removing stats/points from objective games: At this point, the idea of leveling up is pretty much ingrained in the genre. It's somewhat impossible to remove that. Besides, it's nice to see some sort of recognition for your efforts other than winning (if developers award points beyond the capture objective/kill person near objective theme. See BC2)

No, no it isn't. It's just you're choosing to ignore that it can solve the issue because BC2 gives awards for teamplay and kills with a certain subgun.

Which is why the only way to solve this problem imo is to actually make the idea of winning attractive and something to be valued over individual stats.

Or take away the points/make them useless and remove killstats from the game. TF2 did it right, dude. But TF2 also falls into a few pitfalls by keeping the stats in a "my stats" section.

Edit: However, removing the points/stats also makes players turn into "why should I play this game? It doesn't reward me for team play."

I think the TF2 "you almost beat your previous best!" goading/carrot approach works in that context because "hey, maybe next time you can dominate them five-ten times!" It encourages you to be a better player, while at the same time pointing toward team play. "You backstabbed five snipers! Your previous best was two! Good job!"

 

[Hot Coldman]

Someone needs to make a shit-scary multiplayer horror game where the nasties will only leave you be with help from friends. Something like some kind of mixture between L4D and Fatal Frame, with less emphasis on pulpy horror fiction and more emphasis on psychological scares. That'd get people working together.

 

[Monocle]

Someone needs to make a shit-scary multiplayer horror game where the nasties will only leave you be with help from friends. Something like some kind of mixture between L4D and Fatal Frame, with less emphasis on pulpy horror fiction and more emphasis on psychological scares. That'd get people working together.

Except, you know, for the people who want the scares.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Except, you know, for the people who want the scares.

Hmmm, good point. Or trolls.

...

Well whatever. There's always gonna be trolls and such no matter what you play, even if games like TF2 and such.

 

[AniHawk]

Its getting repetitious at this point, but man I love TF2.
(Just avoid playing 2fort, since every moron and their brother just treats it like a deathmatch map)

Got 99 points on the final level of dustbowl last night playing defense as a spy. Our team wound up being pretty organized while we were like a well oiled machine (although we had screwed up the first two times, leaving the final level this long, 25 minute affair). I think I had 19 backstabs at one point.

 

[Razor210]

No, no it isn't. It's just you're choosing to ignore that it can solve the issue because BC2 gives awards for teamplay and kills with a certain subgun.

I'm pretty sure we've played in games in which people straight up did not give a shit and decided that sitting back and "sniping" was a great idea. Do they get points? No, but who cares, they're wookies!

Or take away the points/make them useless and remove killstats from the game. TF2 did it right, dude. But TF2 also falls into a few pitfalls by keeping the stats in a "my stats" section.

Sure, it's a racing game, but the idea is the same:

Having not played TF2, I can't exactly relate to it, but I'm pretty sure that people care to some degree about stats. As well, with PC gaming and whatnot, servers are communities, not random matchmaking with idiots.

 

[TheSeks]

I'm pretty sure we've played in games in which people straight up did not give a shit and decided that sitting back and "sniping" was a great idea. Do they get points? No, but who cares, they're wookies!

They get points, but less so than throwing out their motion mines and class items.

Throwing out a kit item doesn't make you any more a team player than them getting random kills. You just get points faster for helping the team. (Edit: in before "BUT THAT'S MY POINT!" No, the game rewards you for being a teamplayer by throwing out a pack. You get points for it, it doesn't encourage TRUE teamplay.)

Having not played TF2, I can't exactly relate to it,

If the PS3 version wasn't so fucking terrible, I'd buy that and force you to buy that to play with me.

but I'm pretty sure that people care to some degree about stats. As well, with PC gaming and whatnot, servers are communities, not random matchmaking with idiots.

No, because the stats aren't in your face. They're random pop-ups on death. "Hey, you almost beat your domination! Try again!" "Hey, you beat your domination! Good job!" "Hey, you almost tied your stats for backstabs that life! Try again!"

And TF2 on 360 is the same gameplay as the PC version (in before "DURR HURR PC vs CONSOLE WAR"), the community for both is focused on winning the game because the game doesn't reward points (well, it does but they don't DO ANYTHING), nor does it reward lone-wolves. Running off (unless as a spy) in general gameplay is going to have you eat a rocket or face a turret.

There's no "Fans increased" in TF2. That's a mechanic that Activision games (CoD/Blur) have. And it adds nothing to the game because it only rewards "+5" for a kill.

And I'm about to go lay down. I'm going to debate your ass on PSN later today. So you better be on. >_>

 

[charsace]

Shadowrun game design forces teamplay. That's the only way to get it in shooters.

 

[Lion Heart]

They should make it so when you view your stats profile, your win to loss ratio is the first thing people see, in massive 50 ariel font. KD ratio should be tucked in behind otal distance accumulated online.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I never used a headset in MW2, that pretty much says it all...

 

[Dabanton]

Counterstrike is the closest I've seen that had the whole team involved if it's not filled with half idiots. No points but it's team money. There is K/D but it's much more satisfying to take out over half of the opposing team when you are the last one alive.

Pretty much. Their is a strange sense of pride in teamwork in CS on a good server.

 

[charsace]

Some of you should play Shadowrun. Really team oriented. Even when you go into random games people will call out what direction a team should head to or give a character money so that the team can have a guy with a certain build.

I've had games in Shadowrun where I've gone 22 and 8 and my team still loses.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

One reason why I stopped playing BF:BC2 in consoles. The objective: Defend the crate. Who is defending the crate: Only me. Others join in only when they see me getting alot of kills and want to join in on the killfest by literally sitting beside me.

This is also one reason why I'm excited about Kane & Lynch 2 cause whoever fucks up, it'll still be fun fuckup.

 

[SmashBrosAwesome]

It's all about picking the right server. For all the praise that TF2 gets- deservedly so, IMO- there are still countless servers which are 24/7 2fort or whatever that are filled with the "individually minded" gamers that you describe. It's just that with TF2 there are many more servers with dedicated communities that allow teamwork to thrive. Of course, when you can't pick a server to play on, well...

On a related note, I think Call of Duty 2 (for the PC) deserves some recognition for its team-focused gameplay/lack of "selfish" players. Some of this is probably due to its smaller player base, yes, and again it all depends on which server you play on, but I think it also has a lot to do with how Infinity Ward structured the game's multiplayer. First, they kept it simple- no perks, no killstreak awards, no additional "incentives" to maintain a high k/d ratio (which later turned me off the CoD series). Also, there isn't any real stat tracking in the game- no leaderboards, no public profiles, etc- so in the end, k/d ratio doesn't matter in the long run. Finally, it is extremely easy to die in that game- headshots from any weapon instakill, non-pistol melee attacks instakill, shotguns and rifles can kill in one or two shots, and most other weapons will kill you in a matter of seconds. Simply put, going solo in CoD 2 won't get you far.

 

[Dabanton]

Yeah BFBC2 has turned into who can get to the chopper first i always defend my area spot enemies and try to lay mines.

Again it's one of those games that is best played with friends against strangers as a good team can decimate a badly organised one.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Pretty much. Their is a strange sense of pride in teamwork in CS on a good server.

Without sounding like a PC snob, I find this in a lot of games, Americas Army had it as well back in 2002, when it came out.

I also felt that in the Battlefield games. I would always be one of the guys who would swap teams, play the needed class, when there needed to be balance. But that was also because, that Battlefield, was such a war game. Those games are so much more about war. I remember playing anti-tank just because I wanted to give my teammates an experience of total shitstorm-artilery-we're-all-gonna-die, as I would charge the beaches of Omaha shouting "medic!" and "gogogo". It was my way of helping to recreate Saving Private Ryan, by acting hysterial, in my rapid shooting. A great display of fireworks, I would aim for the tanks and the M42s pinning everyone down like retarded animal babies in a forest full of evil poachers who worship satan on sundays!

 

[Mr Sandman]

L4d does solve this problem buy also crates a new problem where if your not good with infected people start kicking you. And you can't learn if you can't play. But everthing else about it is awesome, I just wish people would be a bit nicer =(

This is why I played with a friend when I first started playing L4D. Only your team can kick you and they need 3/4 votes. If you and your buddy vote no, you can't be kicked.

 

[J-Rzez]

MW2 at it's core is not a team orientated shooter. It's focus more on team-deathmatch, and all other game modes are basically after thoughts as you can tell by the quality of them.

The best games for teamwork were SOCOM's, and to an extent MAG. They were some of the few games where the majority of people play/work together than lone wolf it. But those games were designed with teamwork in mind, thus it's rewarding to do so, thus people do it.

 

[Danne-Danger]

Quake Wars is another game that handles this issue exceptionally well.

First you need to know that every class (Engineer, Medic, Soldier, Covert Ops and Field Ops/support, and their Strogg counterparts) has access to the same basic weapon, the assault rifle. They all have different tools and different objectives, but they’re all on equal ground when it comes to basic weaponry (while some classes have additional unique weapons to choose from). The game also has a lot of the traits of a hardcore shooter, strafe jumping and ramp jumping, for example, is encouraged, you run faster with a lighter weapon up etc, just a fast-paced game in general. The game doesn’t gimp you in certain areas so that you have depend on other classes, you’re all equally competent in raw killing power.

And yet, in almost every game I played, on almost any server, you’d see random pub people working together. Medics went out of their way to heal or res you (often while being stupid and running into the line of fire, but it’s the thought that counts!), Engineers always had their turrets up while putting mines out everywhere (and repaired your vehicle), Soldiers planted charges on bonus objectives (side-entrances and such), Covert Ops raided the back-lines in disguise while hacking turrets (and sometimes sniped) with their radar up and running and Field Ops bombarded the enemy and supplied you with ammo. And everyone was in on that big push for the final objective, even though only one individual could complete it (Soldiers for demolition, Engineers for repairs, Covert Ops for hacking and any class for the “reversed CTF” objective).

I’m not sure why it all worked so well, but I think it has a lot to do with the objectives system and how the game gave you experience points. Every class had the same basic objective, say it’s a demolition mission, the soldier had the final task of planting a charge on the objective, everyone else had to see that it got there and later defend it. In addition to that you had the dynamic mission system, which meant that over the course of a game you’d get several different smaller objectives depending on your class. As a Medic the game told you when someone needed to be resurrected, you’d get 4XP for resurrecting someone without a “mission”, but you’d get an additional 4XP if you had the mission, for example. Medics also had the ability to deploy a Supply Crate that gave weapons and grenades to your teammates, you could use it yourself, but when others used it you’d get an experience bonus every now and then (every other person that used it gave you 1XP or something), encouraging you to place it where others could use it as well (they’d run out of supplies after a while and you’d have to deploy a new one).

The experience system worked in such a way that over the course of a map, you’d unlock new gear and abilities. If you played a campaign (a series of 3 maps) the XP would carry over between maps with a bonus for winning. After you’re done the XP is reset and you go through it again over a new map or campaign (there was a stat site where your XP was saved and you’d unlock different badges, no in-game stuff). You wanted experience as fast as possible to get to the max level by the end of the campaign, that meant doing as many side-missions as you could, all of which were geared towards helping your team.

I played as a Medic a lot, much because I enjoy the role but also because it was the absolute best class for killing other people since you could heal yourself whenever you wanted. Since I didn’t have any main objectives that needed doing, in my downtime I was free to just run around and kill people, but if I wanted the most XP out of it I’d better kill people near my teammates so I could heal and resurrect them should the need arise. The game let me play selfishly (even somewhat encouraged it with how they balanced the Medic class) but to be the ultimate selfish XP grinding asshole (though really I didn’t care much about XP and more about my K/D ratio) I had to help my team. That way I’d often have the most kills, the most small arms XP (which you’d get from killing/damaging people with small arms) and the most Medic XP for resurrecting and healing.
The same went for the other classes, if you wanted the most XP you had to help your team and do the things your class could/should do. Sure there were a few cheese strats for XP (shooting at deployables while supplying yourself with ammo), but they were no fun for anyone.

In the end this, I think, molded the community of players that kept playing it. The more used people were to doing the stuff that popped up as side missions, the more they’d do it automatically, without missions. The result was a great pub-community where most people worked as a team spontaneously.

Good times.

 

[Razor210]

They get points, but less so than throwing out their motion mines and class items.

Throwing out a kit item doesn't make you any more a team player than them getting random kills. You just get points faster for helping the team. (Edit: in before "BUT THAT'S MY POINT!" No, the game rewards you for being a teamplayer by throwing out a pack. You get points for it, it doesn't encourage TRUE teamplay.)

In the end, someone with the idea that there are other people on their team is a good enough start, no?

If the PS3 version wasn't so fucking terrible, I'd buy that and force you to buy that to play with me.

I think I'm looking at picking up Bayonetta next, actually.

No, because the stats aren't in your face. They're random pop-ups on death. "Hey, you almost beat your domination! Try again!" "Hey, you beat your domination! Good job!" "Hey, you almost tied your stats for backstabs that life! Try again!"

And TF2 on 360 is the same gameplay as the PC version (in before "DURR HURR PC vs CONSOLE WAR"), the community for both is focused on winning the game because the game doesn't reward points (well, it does but they don't DO ANYTHING), nor does it reward lone-wolves. Running off (unless as a spy) in general gameplay is going to have you eat a rocket or face a turret.

There's no "Fans increased" in TF2. That's a mechanic that Activision games (CoD/Blur) have. And it adds nothing to the game because it only rewards "+5" for a kill.

And I'm about to go lay down. I'm going to debate your ass on PSN later today. So you better be on. >_>

Goes to show that if you market towards a specific group of people, then you'll get that community, but there's no way to get mass-market appeal as CoD has done. Honestly, I have not met a single person who plays TF2 on 360. They all play CoD. And not all games can have class-based systems as well. KZ2 does it and the game still mostly amounts to a clusterfuck.

 

[Ranger X]

Most videogames have multiplayer modes that are extremely badly designed and therefore rewards bad behavior.

That mode you give in example in the OP, just make so the players are obtaining their stats and shit only when they win. Problem solved. People will maybe grind some kills and stuff but then they will want to plant the bomb to win them.

It's often a question of small details that are overlooked in the design process. When designing a game you should NEVER trust the "good behavior" people "should" have. It never happens and will never happen either. You need to design your game so it CONTROLS people's behavior.

.

 

[AcciDante]

I normally just play Team Deathmatch when possible, because I lose my mind when I'm trying to capture an objective and nobody is helping. On XBL, that's pretty much always.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Those stack.

The common suggested solution to these issues is to incentivize teamwork by granting (or removing) points, but that just highlights the real problem. Most players aren't considerate of the other people on their team. They're only in it for themselves. I can't even count how many times that people have driven away in the only vehicle, leaving me stuck at the spawn point.

I notice the same type of behavior everywhere, even from people who are considered to be role models. If people can't even comprehend the concept of teamwork in real life then there's no hope in trying for it in a video game.

your talking about me, but I deserved to fly the choppers in BF2. I played as a lone wolf in pubs, and I was good enough to base camp a team within the first minute with a chopper. would you say i'm an exception? i'm pretty sure my team enjoyed winning 10 consecutive matches, capturing conquest points and racking up free kills at the spare of a noob teammate who probably would have wasted the chopper anyway. certain players have their roles like in domination on CoD4, I would stay behind and let me teammates rush point B, and pick off the opposite team, then rush point C, and choke them in a spawn point. game, set and match. what you think is being selfish, i consider it helping the team.

 

[Dandare4444]

Goes to show that if you market towards a specific group of people, then you'll get that community, but there's no way to get mass-market appeal as CoD has done. Honestly, I have not met a single person who plays TF2 on 360. They all play CoD. And not all games can have class-based systems as well. K

Although you haven't met me, i play TF2 on 360 a lot. I know plenty of people who do so to. The community's there although it's a minor one by way of comparison to the COD's of this world. And despite it's small size, still manages to have it's fair share of douchebags, but in the main the level of co-operation is way above most other shooters i've played. I stopped playing Halo 3 online very shortly after release for two reasons. 1. They dropped the 8v8 playlists. 2.Even though i greetly enjoyed those playlists, after shitloads of hours on Halo 2 leading into 3, i got very tired at people's individualisim in a team enviroment. TF2 was like mana from heaven for me anyways.