Some realisations, from my slight mental breakdown on Twitter:
- There are around thirty tracks. That makes three tracks per character, at most, assuming that there are ten characters.
- I had been thinking about the tracks that I won't want to play as often because of the associated character, but there's also the issue that if I want to play as my favourite character, I will have to play certain tracks, and the chances of crossover between my favourite tracks and favourite character seem fucking slim.
I... kind of don't see the problem for this? Not for me anyway. I was never one to change characters around that much in the project Diva games. Though the fact that they create special videos for each song and have the characters sing them does deter me from doing that. Not sure if DAN will have the same specificity for each song.
I would assume that you're probably less attached to Miku characters also, though, right? It's not like you've played through an 80 hours JRPG with them.
Maybe not 80 hours of an RPG, but I have certainly played more than 100+ hours combined between all the Project Diva games, so you still get to like the characters on a certain level. If I'm honest, it's a non-issue for me not being able to use different characters in an specific song, after all, I always only use the recommended costume and character for them in the PD series: I may dabble around using different costumes, but I always end up returning to the recommended one.
I liked saving up and unlocking outfits that I could use. Now, I can still do that in P4D, but it's not as impactful if I can only see the outfit in say, 3 songs, that I may rarely play (in comparison to the songs I like).
Hey, there are many things in this world that justify a mental breakdown. I don't think a video game, let alone one like this, is one of those justifiable reasons tho.
Some of the gameplay decisions are a bit weird, certainly. I do hope the choreographed dances are good enough to justify each dancer having their own song. I think they will be, if some of the more unique styles are any indication.
Some of the gameplay decisions are a bit weird, certainly. I do hope the choreographed dances are good thing to justify each dancer having their own song. I think they will be, if some of the more unique styles are any indication.
Hey, there are many things in this world that justify a mental breakdown. I don't think a video game, let alone one like this, is one of those justifiable reasons tho.
You realize that JPop itself isn't a style of dance, right? While the style of music will certain influence the dancing itself, it's not like it'll dominate all over the existing style. We saw that with Yukiko's trailer, where the ballet influenced dance was extremely obvious.
(If you're wondering why I keep going back to Yukiko, ballet/tap is basically the only style of dance I know personally.)
I think there's a difference between being disappointed (which I certainly am in regards to each character being locked to a song) and Dantis's choice of words, which were a "slight mental breakdown"
EDIT: Also, I didn't realize Dantis made a separate thread on this until now. My eyes have been glued to Twitter and this thread. >_>;
I think there's a difference between being disappointed (which I certainly am in regards to each character being locked to a song) and Dantis's choice of words, which were a "slight mental breakdown"
I think there's a difference between being disappointed (which I certainly am in regards to each character being locked to a song) and Dantis's choice of words, which were a "slight mental breakdown"
EDIT: Also, I didn't realize Dantis made a separate thread on this until now. My eyes have been glued to Twitter and this thread. >_>;
If you insist. I want to say something about the exaggeration, but as you well know even I'm not immune to exaggerating things sometimes myself.
Although, for what it's worth, the dances do seem significantly higher quality than what Project Diva and other similar games ever did. The vocaloids in general did not make use of heavy character animation for their "music videos" so to speak, allowing for the animation to be replaced. Even the heavier pack songs like World's End Dancehall aren't terribly specific. If the developers have put as much work into the animations as they've claimed, it'll show in the final product.
Although, for what it's worth, the dances do seem significantly higher quality than what Project Diva and other similar games ever did. The vocaloids in general did not make use of heavy animation for their "music videos" so to speak, allowing for the animation to be replaced. Even the heavier pack songs like World's End Dancehall aren't terribly specific. If the developers have put as much work into the animations as they've claimed, it'll show in the final product.
That is a good point, a large amount of Project Diva PV's have the characters just standing around, or doing mundane things like waiting for a train. But it is more of a singing game than a dancing game.
If you insist. I want to say something about the exaggeration, but as you well know even I'm not immune to exaggerating things sometimes myself.
Although, for what it's worth, the dances do seem significantly higher quality than what Project Diva and other similar games ever did. The vocaloids in general did not make use of heavy character animation for their "music videos" so to speak, allowing for the animation to be replaced. Even the heavier pack songs like World's End Dancehall aren't terribly specific. If the developers have put as much work into the animations as they've claimed, it'll show in the final product.
I guess it depends how much you care about the dances? Like, I kind of don't give a hoot about the dances themselves, because they're not in a style that I find appealing anyway. And I genuinely, sincerely believe that the 'characterisation' that they will convey will be minimal and bad, so it feels like they're making concessions for really dumb reasons.
I just kind of want to ask the developers "Who actually gives a crap if Chie dances like Yukiko?".
That is a good point, a large amount of Project Diva PV's have the characters just standing around, or doing mundane things like waiting for a train. But it is more of a singing game than a dancing game.
Two of my favorite songs from Project Diva F, Tengaku and Monochrome Blue Sky, basically consist of the character singing to the viewer, walking around, and in the case of the former playing an air guitar really really badly. XD
So when you think about it like that, the fact that we can actually recognize the styles in the Dancing All Night footage is pretty incredible. I will lament the fact that I can't make everyone dance to Reach Out To the Truth or Best Friends, however. It would have been fun to see some songs allow for multiple characters. Perhaps maybe for a sequel.
I guess it depends how much you care about the dances? Like, I kind of don't give a hoot about the dances themselves, because they're not in a style that I find appealing anyway. And I genuinely, sincerely believe that the 'characterisation' that they will convey will be minimal and bad, so it feels like they're making concessions for really dumb reasons.
I just kind of want to ask the developers "Who actually gives a crap if Chie dances like Yukiko?".
As someone who enjoys dancing in real life, I'm actually pretty interested in the dances myself. And I think the developers were aiming for a specific goal with the dances. Sure, they could have made each character perform the other's dances, but it would have introduced elements (clipping, awkward animations) they didn't like, and they'd have to go back and manually hand correct any technical issues across every song. Given the very character focused nature of the game so far, it probably didn't seem that worth it to them.
Part of me was expecting this outcome since they showed that each characters had different styles but I wanted to believe all characters could be used for all songs. I'm just worried that some characters are going to end up with song choices I don't like and therefore I never play them, this might be an easier issue to avoid if there were more songs available but it looks like each character will have a very small range of options.
I also wonder how easy it's actually going to be to notice the various dances when playing the game. I appreciate the work that was done to give each character a personality, but in rhythm games I tend to ignore any of the background stuff and focus on the notes.
It's rather painstaking to match animations between character models. If you just copy paste them, you end up with monstrosities (albeit hilarious ones) like this:
As someone who enjoys dancing in real life, I'm actually pretty interested in the dances myself. And I think the developers were aiming for a specific goal with the dances. Sure, they could have made each character perform the other's dances, but it would have introduced elements (clipping, awkward animations) they didn't like, and they'd have to go back and manually hand correct any technical issues across every song. Given the very character focused nature of the game so far, it probably didn't seem that worth it to them.
Pretty much, yeah. But that seems like less work than what they've done with duets anyway? Motion capture data isn't carried over wholesale, it's heavily changed before it's implemented. A ton of time will have gone into the short duet dances.
It's rather painstaking to match animations between character models. If you just copy paste them, you end up with monstrosities (albeit hilarious ones) like this:
First of all, this is hilarious. Secondly, Oni with Cammy's moves carried over really well. Cammy with Oni's moves didn't, but I'm pretty sure that's because of the stylised animation on SF4.
The faces are completely fucked either way though.
It's rather painstaking to match animations between character models. If you just copy paste them, you end up with monstrosities (albeit hilarious ones) like this:
Pretty much, yeah. But that seems like less work than what they've done with duets anyway? Motion capture data isn't carried over wholesale, it's heavily changed before it's implemented. A ton of time will have gone into the short duet dances.
Across the board. For every song. For every character. That's 300 or more possible song combinations your entire development team has to correct and test by hand. And this isn't taking into account the example is from a 2D-gameplay fighter rather than a dancing game where the characters move all over the place. And also not taking into account partner characters. And even when all this is said and done, you still have hilarious and silly combinations like Kanji doing ballet or Yosuke doing Teddie's movements. Also didn't they have to put in extra effort for Nanako's dances so they're appropriate for a 7/8 year old? Something to consider too.
It's certainly not effortless. Not by a long shot. It's the kind of effort I could only see being done for a sequel game where the foundations are already established.
Don't care about the characters. Only care about the music and the rhythm gameplay.
P4 characters are pretty much dead to me at this point. It's honestly like we're watching disney world style mascot suit versions of characters being paraded out at a birthday party.
I'm not mad, I'm just done. I liked them in P4, but removed from their story, they're significantly less interesting.
P4 characters are pretty much dead to me at this point. It's honestly like we're watching disney world style mascot suit versions of characters being paraded out at a birthday party.
I'm not mad, I'm just done. I liked them in P4, but removed from their story, they're significantly less interesting.
I had a sort of similar reaction when I finished Golden a month ago. Arena's story was a frustrating experience for me, and Golden's epilogue was the perfect way to say goodbye to the characters. I decided I don't need it anymore.
Removed from the story of P4 the characters are removed from their real character arcs and without them they're just not as interesting.
Don't care about the characters. Only care about the music and the rhythm gameplay.
P4 characters are pretty much dead to me at this point. It's honestly like we're watching disney world style mascot suit versions of characters being paraded out at a birthday party.
I'm not mad, I'm just done. I liked them in P4, but removed from their story, they're significantly less interesting.
If they were removed from their story they would still be fine, but they've been removed from everything except from one trait that just becomes their character. It didn't bother me as much in Ultimax but it really bothers me in PQ to the point where I actively hate characters.
It's why I hope that DAN is aware of how dumb it is, as that could at least result in a fun story but I'm definitely more interested in gameplay at this point, which is kind of a shame.
Persona 5 will be a welcome breath of fresh air and hopefully by the time that gets crazy with it's spin off titles Persona 6 will be on the horizon.
But when the ways they evoke the character are so shallow, does it actually matter? Like I said before, it's all J pop dancing with small flourishes unique to a character. Take out the occasional kicks Chie does and her dance could be anyone's.
I always assumed the primary appeal of P4DAN would be that it's a rhythm game with some jammin' Persona tunes and that whatever stupid visuals they had going on in the background would just be set dressing for what we really came for, but maybe that's just me.
If they were removed from their story they would still be fine, but they've been removed from everything except from one trait that just becomes their character. It didn't bother me as much in Ultimax but it really bothers me in PQ to the point where I actively hate characters.
It's why I hope that DAN is aware of how dumb it is, as that could at least result in a fun story but I'm definitely more interested in gameplay at this point, which is kind of a shame.
Persona 5 will be a welcome breath of fresh air and hopefully by the time that gets crazy with it's spin off titles Persona 6 will be on the horizon.
There is no chance of this whatsoever. Persona as a whole lacks self awareness, and it has been more and more of a problem as the spin offs have gotten more silly.
I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I actually don't understand how you could feel this way. Chie doing an occasional kick isn't shallow to you? Her dancing is no different from Rise's if you remove that and Rise's sexualised moves.
I don't mean to sound confrontational, but I actually don't understand how you could feel this way. Chie doing an occasional kick isn't shallow to you? Her dancing is no different from Rise's if you remove that and Rise's sexualised moves.
There is no chance of this whatsoever. Persona as a whole lacks self awareness, and it has been more and more of a problem as the spin offs have gotten more silly.
Yeah, it's definitely more wishful thinking than an expectation. I would hope that the fact that they've decided to make a cannon rhythm game were we have Personas using instruments is a sign that they don't care any more, but you're right that the previous spin offs don't really support that idea.
So would you say that it's in depth? Do you feel like the dances evoke the characters beyond the occasional flourishes? Do you think you'd be able to differentiate between them if the flourishes were removed?
I had a sort of similar reaction when I finished Golden a month ago. Arena's story was a frustrating experience for me, and Golden's epilogue was the perfect way to say goodbye to the characters. I decided I don't need it anymore.
Removed from the story of P4 the characters are removed from their real character arcs and without them they're just not as interesting.
I understand those feelings. But...I don't agree with the epilogue being the perfect way of finishing P4. I thought the original ending was better.
If the characters must be revisited, then I prefer what's being given to us with the spinoffs. Things like Yosuke saying he doesn't care about his coolness anymore means more than him getting a new haircut.
So would you say that it's in depth? Do you feel like the dances evoke the characters beyond the occasional flourishes? Do you think you'd be able to differentiate between them if the flourishes were removed?
We haven't actually seen that much in motion, not to mention choreographies in sync with music. But, for the most part, I'd easily be able to differentiate each of the characters based on how they dance except for Kanami and Rise. I do think they evoke the characters, again, with the little we've seen, and that would imply depth, especially hearing Wada talk about how involved the mocap process was.
I understand those feelings. But...I don't agree with the epilogue being the perfect way of finishing P4. I thought the original ending was better.
If the characters must be revisited, then I prefer what's being given to us with the spinoffs. Things like Yosuke saying he doesn't care about his coolness anymore means more than him getting a new haircut.
We haven't actually seen that much in motion, not to mention choreographies in sync with music. But, for the most part, I'd easily be able to differentiate each of the characters based on how they dance except for Kanami and Rise. I do think they evoke the characters, again, with the little we've seen, and that would imply depth, especially hearing Wada talk about how involved the mocap process was.
Wada and Hashino talk shit, because they're trying to sell a product. If you can tell the dances apart then that's cool, but I wouldn't put any stock whatsoever in what Wada said.
On the topic of Persona 4's spinoffs, I'll just say this... From a purely critical standpoint (that is, ignoring popularity and money), Persona 4 was definitely not the right game to make a bunch of spinoffs of.
If I were going to make spinoff games, I would pick Persona 1 or Persona 3. The cast have far more potential from a writing standpoint than the overly complex cast of Persona 2 or the self-contained stories of the Persona 4 cast.
For better or for worse tho, Persona 4 is the popular one. So from a commercial standpoint it makes sense to make that the game with all the spinoffs.
Wada and Hashino talk shit, because they're trying to sell a product. If you can tell the dances apart then that's cool, but I wouldn't put any stock whatsoever in what Wada said.
It's not simply about marketing, it's about the actual process. They had a different motion capture artist for every single character. They actually bothered to redo Nanako's motion capture data because it was not faithful to her character. Regardless of talking up P4D for the sake of sales, these are things that happened. These are things that show the team's dedication behind the characters' choreography.
They could have taken a less resource intensive route of hiring a single mocap artist and not bothering to be so scrutinous about how they danced, but they didn't. That is what I mean by "depth." The alternative would have had a surface level appeal. What they went for instead is the direction with more thought put behind it.
On the topic of Persona 4's spinoffs, I'll just say this... From a purely critical standpoint (that is, ignoring popularity and money), Persona 4 was definitely not the right game to make a bunch of spinoffs of.
If I were going to make spinoff games, I would pick Persona 1 or Persona 3. The cast have far more potential from a writing standpoint than the overly complex cast of Persona 2 or the self-contained stories of the Persona 4 cast.
For better or for worse tho, Persona 4 is the popular one. So from a commercial standpoint it makes sense to make that the game with all the spinoffs.
I disagree pretty strongly about Persona 3, particularly with the crap story that The Answer came out with, but Persona 1 would definitely benefit the most. The characters are blank slates comparatively. They could have taken it so much further in interesting ways.
It's not simply about marketing, it's about the actual process. They had a different motion capture artist for every single character. They actually bothered to redo Nanako's motion capture data because it was not faithful to her character. Regardless of talking up P4D for the sake of sales, these are things that happened. These are things that show the team's dedication behind the characters' choreography.
They could have taken a less resource intensive route of hiring a single mocap artist and not bothering to be so scrutinous about how they danced, but they didn't. That is what I mean by "depth." The alternative would have had a surface level appeal. What they went for instead is the direction with more thought put behind it.
I would argue that this is exactly what the final result is. Just because they hired separate mo cap artists doesn't mean anything if the result isn't worthwhile (And I would definitely say it isn't). It's not depth just because they involved more people..
I'm not sure what the actual solution would be, to be honest? Maybe it would be to try and portray the characters dancing in a style that suits that character's personality? I dunno. But I think what they have is cutesy idol dancing with occasional flourishes.
I also still wish that they actually did different styles of dancing, like I had hoped they might after that interview with Wada. It wouldn't have added anything on a character level, but it would have at least added more variety.
It's solely a matter of opinion, in the end. I just was never really invested in the character costumes or the possibility of switching characters (expecting it to turn out this way also tempered my expectations), so I'm really completely indifferent to this. That's also not an uncommon reaction, going by the responses to Dantis' thread. On the other hand, I also understand how it's disappointing for those that wanted the customizability.
That part's still relatively vague. My guess is that partners really come into play during "Fever" moments, and not for a whole song. Even then, the prospect of there being completely unique choreography for every partner permutation and for every song just for those moment sounds kind of crazy, so I'm guessing that the animations for partners during the duet segments will mostly be preset, despite having some unique flourishes and dialogue.
There's also the possibility that partners are actually in play for the entire duration of a song, and that would 100% mean that partners have preset animations for a song, possibly with the unique choreography reserved for the Fever segments. It's a bit unclear right now.
Good point. But I wouldn't say it means nothing. We don't know the context of that line to begin with since it was just something from his P4D trailer.
On the topic of Persona 4's spinoffs, I'll just say this... From a purely critical standpoint (that is, ignoring popularity and money), Persona 4 was definitely not the right game to make a bunch of spinoffs of.
If I were going to make spinoff games, I would pick Persona 1 or Persona 3. The cast have far more potential from a writing standpoint than the overly complex cast of Persona 2 or the self-contained stories of the Persona 4 cast.
For better or for worse tho, Persona 4 is the popular one. So from a commercial standpoint it makes sense to make that the game with all the spinoffs.
Hmm...I think it depends on character. Naoto works as a spinoff character. Unfortunately her spinoff isn't actually good but I don't think it's a character issue. I think Ken and Mitsuru work as well.
That part's still relatively vague. My guess is that partners really come into play during "Fever" moments, and not for a whole song. Even then, the prospect of there being completely unique choreography for every partner permutation and for every song just for those moment sounds kind of crazy, so I'm guessing that the animations for partners during the duet segments will mostly be preset, despite having some unique flourishes and dialogue.
There's also the possibility that partners are actually in play for the entire duration of a song, and that would 100% mean that partners have preset animations for a song, possibly with the unique choreography reserved for the Fever segments. It's a bit unclear right now.
Thanks. I'm just glad that I can select 1 character, and potentially have ANY other character to join in the dance entirely, or at some point with unique dialogue and animations.
I suspect this is how the story mode will be handled as well.
I couldn't find any info in the other kanami kitchen members being danceable? Are they out of the danceable equation or are they the included characters - or are they DLC characters?
On the topic of Persona 4's spinoffs, I'll just say this... From a purely critical standpoint (that is, ignoring popularity and money), Persona 4 was definitely not the right game to make a bunch of spinoffs of.
If I were going to make spinoff games, I would pick Persona 1 or Persona 3. The cast have far more potential from a writing standpoint than the overly complex cast of Persona 2 or the self-contained stories of the Persona 4 cast.
For better or for worse tho, Persona 4 is the popular one. So from a commercial standpoint it makes sense to make that the game with all the spinoffs.
Hmm...I think it depends on character. Naoto works as a spinoff character. Unfortunately her spinoff isn't actually good but I don't think it's a character issue. I think Ken and Mitsuru work as well.
Naoto on her own does have a lot of potential there. She's a detective and she's a Persona user. This puts her in a unique spot to appear in future installments as well as spinoffs as a supporting character or cameo role.
Naturally of course, this means Persona x Detective Naoto does jack all with this concept and resorts to fanservice, ripping off other works, out of character moments, and generally all around crappy writing. >_>;
As for the rest of the cast... (Persona 4/Arena/Ultimax spoilers)
Yosuke, Chie, Kanji, and Yukiko all basically have their stories finished, more or less. To do anything more would basically require taking them away from Inaba or compromising on their initial story arcs. The former is happening in Dancing All Night because of Yu, which would admittedly be a good thing if not for how over the top Dancing All Night's plot is... The later is something that the development team clearly does not want to do, given how they handled it in Arena and Ultimax. Of the remaining three, Yu could basically be anything Atlus wants him to be by virtue of his blank slate protagonist role. Teddie's existence as a shadow is unique and allows for a lot of stories and concepts, but they don't have to be attached to him specifically. Morganna in Persona 5 is perfectly capable of incorporating those ideas too, should the development team take that route. And Rise was basically the only member of the cast who got any form of character development in Arena/Ultimax anyhow. On the whole, when half your cast is tied to Inaba, and the other half of your cast is tied to them due to the themes of Persona 4... not really a whole lot you can write there that works for a spinoff.
Contrast this to Persona 1 and Persona 3 (spoilers for those games now!)
Mitisuru's very opening to Arena gives her a ton of character development, and establishes her moving forward. Akihiko finally found what he wanted to do in life thanks to the Persona 4 cast. Elizabeth and Aigis are intertwined with a plotline that started in the first Persona and has been continuing on ever since, so they're virtually guaranteed to make cameos and/or be supporting characters from time to time. Labrys is now a part of Mitsuru's group and the entire fighting game duology is basically her story and character development. Ken actively matured over the course of Ultimax in subtle ways. And while Yukari, Junpei, and Fuuka didn't have as much character development as the others, they still showed their growth from the end of Persona 3. Fuuka even indirectly inspired Rise's own character development. To top it all off, the Shadow Operatives are basically guaranteed to appear in some form in future installments
Then there's the Persona 1 cast, all of whom are basically blank slates due to the nature of the first game and the fact that it's been almost 20 years since the plot of that game resolved itself. It's obvious the developers don't want to touch any of Tadashi's stuff more than they have to, but there's a lot of potential there should they wish to use them. Perhaps far more than any other cast of characters. The only issue is the main protagonist, who is the biggest blank state of any MegaTen protagonist ever.
TLDR: Some of the P4 cast, a whole lot of the P3 cast, and virtually the entire P1 cast are all good for standalone material, be that cameo or spinoff. But the P4 cast as a whole is too tied to their setting and story, which is why there seems to be a near universal preference for the P3 storyline in Arena/Ultimax.
Also I write long posts, because reasons. Or something.
That doesn't really hinder the writing team all that much, especially given the themes of Persona 3.
I mean the ultimate message at the end of it all was that death is inevitable, and it's what you do in life that gives it meaning. Heck, Igor even says this outright when you get a game over!
I think you could conceivably do a decent spinoff with P4 characters, it's just that they are either not willing to or lack the talent of the original writing team.
Spinoffs naturally lend themselves to bad writing... especially ones with big contrivances like fighting games or dancing games. That's why I'm just "whatever" about it. It's a dancing game. Do I really want everyone to move forward as a character in a game like that? How silly. I'm personally just done and ready and move on. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over frivolous writing in frivolous spinoffs. P5's on the way, so I'm fine. As long as they're still working on mainline games and (hopefully) putting some quality effort in them, they could go and make Persona 4: Karting All Afternoon: Ultra Moonwalk Swim for all I care.
I think you could conceivably do a decent spinoff with P4 characters, it's just that they are either not willing to or lack the talent of the original writing team.
Spinoffs themselves naturally lend themselves to bad writing... especially ones with big contrivances like fighting games or dancing games.
Well, that's the thing. The spin-offs are meant to be good games in the genres they pertain to and expand the Persona audience first and foremost before their focus is to have a great story. In that sense they've succeeded, with all three of their currently released ones being critically acclaimed and each with fantastic sales. I'm not really looking for meaningful character development or a narrative on par with Persona 4's from these, and I think it's a big mistake if one is looking for that.
Well, that's the thing. The spin-offs are meant to be good games in the genres they pertain to and expand the Persona audience first and foremost before their focus being a great story. In that sense, they've succeeded with all three of their currently released ones being critically acclaimed and each with fantastic sales. I'm not really looking for meaningful character development or a narrative on par with Persona 4's from these, and I think it's a big mistake if one is looking for that.
Can't say I disagree. It's for the same reason that I avoided PQ, just not a fan of that style of gameplay. But I've heard that the people who do like it are pretty big fans of it here. Arena was great, but I didn't feel the urge to get a second one. I'm definitely getting DAN though because I like rhythm games, and even more so, I enjoy persona music.
I'm just done thinking about these characters, and it's safe to say that I'm no longer attracted to something just because those characters are in it.
