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Persona Series Story & Spoilers, P4G Reflection, Persona 5 Speculation Inevitable

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BeesEight

Member
Right. Naoto wasn't ever intended to be transgendered. She's sexually confused, but that has to do with her tomboy behavior and the profession she's in. People seeing her as transgendered, or thinking it was some weird statement about Japan and sexuality, are ignoring what was said and seeing what they want to see.

Her dungeon seems pretty unapologetically transgendered and the reason for her wanting to be a boy seemed a bit weak. That said, her whole issue was essentially brushed to the side and only brought out for a few laughs here and there. That, coupled with the ability to romance her seemed like the design wasn't really trying to broach trans-gendered issues.

Kanji, on the other hand, seems rather obviously gay though that may have been a result of the English translation since I remember reading they had to change some things for the American release.
 
Her dungeon seems pretty unapologetically transgendered and the reason for her wanting to be a boy seemed a bit weak. That said, her whole issue was essentially brushed to the side and only brought out for a few laughs here and there. That, coupled with the ability to romance her seemed like the design wasn't really trying to broach trans-gendered issues.

Kanji, on the other hand, seems rather obviously gay though that may have been a result of the English translation since I remember reading they had to change some things for the American release.
You sure he isn't bi?
 

Trigger

Member
Kanji's only romantic scenes are with Naoto. The story never takes the idea that he's possibly gay seriously. I'd argue his story is more traditional gender roles than sexuality. Same for Naoto.
 
Well... I suppose they could try and angle it in that direction. I would think, given the nature of the TV world dungeons that if he were bi it wouldn't be so subsumed in gay imagery. At the very least, he's not straight.
He still likes naoto (despite him being aware that she has a vagina). He's probably bi. He was also aroused when seeing chie and yukiko at the pageant in their swimsuits.
 

BeesEight

Member
Kanji's only romantic scenes are with Naoto. The story never takes the idea that he's possibly gay seriously. I'd argue his story is more traditional gender roles than sexuality. Same for Naoto.

Kanji was initially attracted to Naoto because he thought she was a boy. It seems to me, given his refusal to accept his attraction to guys, that Naoto feeds into his desire to still be a "manly" man.

I can understand why Atlus didn't really go into it any more. As you say, they were treating it more for comedic effect and if they had him accept his sexuality then they wouldn't be able to have the scripted jokes later on. Missed opportunities and what not.
 

Noi

Member
Kanji is still very much into Naoto in Arena. Hell, the ending to his alternate path in that game's story mode is that Kanji thinks it's all a dream so he straight up confesses to her.
 

Trigger

Member
Kanji was initially attracted to Naoto because he thought she was a boy. It seems to me, given his refusal to accept his attraction to guys, that Naoto feeds into his desire to still be a "manly" man.

I can understand why Atlus didn't really go into it any more. As you say, they were treating it more for comedic effect and if they had him accept his sexuality then they wouldn't be able to have the scripted jokes later on. Missed opportunities and what not.

I don't believe Kanji was struggling to accept an attraction to men. He was struggling to balance the idea of what a "man" should do and his love for more feminine hobbies. It's more or less the point of his social link. In his social link his mother implies that he was teased as a child for not being tough. The effeminate, gay Kanji is just a representation of how he fears being seen. It's similar to how Naoto's shadow takes on the form of a child to represent how she feels she's viewed by other detectives.
 

jello44

Chie is the worst waifu
He still likes naoto (despite him being aware that she has a vagina). He's probably bi. He was also aroused when seeing chie and yukiko at the pageant in their swimsuits.

Also at the campout.

I don't believe Kanji was struggling to accept an attraction to men. He was struggling to balance the idea of what a "man" should do and his love for more feminine hobbies. It's more or less the point of his social link. In his social link his mother implies that he was teased as a child for not being tough. The effeminate, gay Kanji is just a representation of how he fears being seen. It's similar to how Naoto's shadow takes on the form of a child to represent how she feels she's viewed by other detectives.

This.
 
This topic just reminds me how much I want the PSP version of Eternal Punishment. :/

I want to do a Persona series playthrough, and this is the only thing holding me back.
 

BeesEight

Member
I don't believe Kanji was struggling to accept an attraction to men. He was struggling to balance the idea of what a "man" should do and his love for more feminine hobbies. It's more or less the point of his social link. In his social link his mother implies that he was teased as a child for not being tough. The effeminate, gay Kanji is just a representation of how he fears being seen. It's similar to how Naoto's shadow takes on the form of a child to represent how she feels she's viewed by other detectives.

I think it's telling that the two social links that are the least directly connected to their shadows are Kanji's and Naoto's.

Yosuke talks pretty exclusively about hating the town and wanting something more than some backwoods life - just like his Shadow said. Yukiko vows to leave the town because she doesn't want to stay at the inn - just like her Shadow said. Chie talks about how she likes making herself seem strong and important so she can be needed - like her Shadow said.

Then Kanji's whole social link is about making bunnies.

It seems odd that every other characters shadows' symbolism is pretty damn straight forward and yet Kanji's, which is made really obvious in his dungeon, is actually about him not being manly because he likes sewing? And it's not actually about him enjoying a "feminine" hobby but that he's really afraid of being rejected because he likes a feminine hobby? If that was the case, why wouldn't his dungeon have more effeminate things in it? Why was all the symbolism gay symbols? Why is it that just because he likes sewing it automatically makes him "gay" and not "a girl?" Why, if his true fear is rejection, isn't all the symbolism in his dungeon rejection symbols?

On top of which, he spends the entire time after his dungeon denying that he likes girls and that he's always going to prove it with getting some action from women. It never once seemed that he ever accepted his attraction even though his dungeon was pretty obvious (as well as his initial interest in Naoto). It seems rather incongruous for his dungeon to be so misleading when every other one is essentially exposing the character's inner emotions and psyche. The only time Kanji really "accepts" it is after you kick his shadow's ass.

Maybe it was a missed opportunity? Or Atlus biting off more than they can chew?
 

Trigger

Member
I think it's telling that the two social links that are the least directly connected to their shadows are Kanji's and Naoto's.

Yosuke talks pretty exclusively about hating the town and wanting something more than some backwoods life - just like his Shadow said. Yukiko vows to leave the town because she doesn't want to stay at the inn - just like her Shadow said. Chie talks about how she likes making herself seem strong and important so she can be needed - like her Shadow said.

Then Kanji's whole social link is about making bunnies.

They are connected though. This is what Kanji's shadow says before the boss fight:

Ohh, how I hate girls…
So arrogant and self-centered! They cry if you get angry, they gossip behind your back, they spread nasty lies…
They look at me like some… some disgusting THING and say that I'm a weirdo…
Laughing at me, all the while!
"You like to sew? What a queer!" "Painting is so not you."
"But you're a guy…" "You don't act like a guy…" "Why aren't you manly…"

-------------

Girls are so scary…
Men are much better…
They'd never say those awful, degrading things. Yes, I vastly prefer men…


In Kanji's social link we get more detail into why his shadow would say that. He was teased as a child for liking girlie things like sewing and arts and crafts. He changed his image into the tough guy we see as a result. The whole storyline isn't just about sewing bunnies. The storyline is about Kanji accepting that there's nothing wrong with liking those things and that it doesn't make him less of a man. The two are very connected.

It seems odd that every other characters shadows' symbolism is pretty damn straight forward and yet Kanji's, which is made really obvious in his dungeon, is actually about him not being manly because he likes sewing? And it's not actually about him enjoying a "feminine" hobby but that he's really afraid of being rejected because he likes a feminine hobby? If that was the case, why wouldn't his dungeon have more effeminate things in it? Why was all the symbolism gay symbols? Why is it that just because he likes sewing it automatically makes him "gay" and not "a girl?" Why, if his true fear is rejection, isn't all the symbolism in his dungeon rejection symbols?

Why does Labrys's shadow organize a tournament to kill people if all she wants is friends? Why does Rise's shadow prance around a bikini if Rise wants people to like her for who she is? The shadows and their corresponding dungeons are sometimes a mockery of their true feelings. I'd say that the bathhouse theme is a reflection of Kanji's desire to be manly and a symbol of his aversion to girls as a result of teasing as a child. After the fight his shadow pleads, "I don't care who… Won't someone, anyone, please accept me…?" Women aren't allowed in a men's bathhouse, so I'd say that the bathouse represents a place where no woman could tease him. Kanji's shadow specifically states that men are superior because they won't tease him, not because of sexual attraction.

On top of which, he spends the entire time after his dungeon denying that he likes girls and that he's always going to prove it with getting some action from women. It never once seemed that he ever accepted his attraction even though his dungeon was pretty obvious (as well as his initial interest in Naoto). It seems rather incongruous for his dungeon to be so misleading when every other one is essentially exposing the character's inner emotions and psyche. The only time Kanji really "accepts" it is after you kick his shadow's ass.

Maybe it was a missed opportunity? Or Atlus biting off more than they can chew?

Doesn't the bolded sort of prove the point? If Kanji was struggling with sexuality then he'd have to accept that to gain his persona. He never does because he didn't need to accept his sexuality. It's pretty obvious from the story that Kanji likes girls. The nosebleed he gets when seeing Yukiko and Chie in their bikinis, the way he treats Naoto during the ski trip, his later confession to Naoto in Arena, etc. I don't think the dungeon is misleading so much as some members of audience misinterpreted the subtext. The whole idea that Kanji is gay/bi seems so widespread despite the flimsy evidence and contradictions.

I don't really see it as a missed opportunity, but then I honestly don't know what the intent of the writers were and what the process in creating his storyline was like. Given that Catharine had a trangendered character I'd like to think that Atlus just didn't actually intend on Kanji being bisexual or gay. I don't think they're afraid to tackle the issue.

tl;dr Long post is long and even as bi-gamer I'm not keen on the Kanji is gay interpretation.
 

Nexas

Member
They are connected though. This is what Kanji's shadow says before the boss fight:

Ohh, how I hate girls…
So arrogant and self-centered! They cry if you get angry, they gossip behind your back, they spread nasty lies…
They look at me like some… some disgusting THING and say that I'm a weirdo…
Laughing at me, all the while!
"You like to sew? What a queer!" "Painting is so not you."
"But you're a guy…" "You don't act like a guy…" "Why aren't you manly…"

-------------

Girls are so scary…
Men are much better…
They'd never say those awful, degrading things. Yes, I vastly prefer men…


.
Ok this is the thing that always bothered my about Kanji's shadow. This has always been the opposite in my experience. There is nothing more homophobic than a teenage guy as Yosuke proves over and over again. Put too much effort into your appearance, take part in some sort of traditionally feminine hobby, or do just about anything that doesn't match the the traditional standard of "manliness," and at least half of the guys at school will call you a f*g. Girls on the other hand always ate that shit. The sensitive slightly effeminate guy was always surrounded by girls. Is it just the opposite in Japan or something? Again, Yosuke seems to prove that guys over there act the same as we do in the states. Is there something I'm missing?
 

BeesEight

Member
Well, I haven't played Golden or Arena so the only information I'm working off is the original. Though, Arena was developed by a different company so I'm not sure how... much stock I'd put in their character developments.

In Kanji's social link we get more detail into why his shadow would say that. He was teased as a child for liking girlie things like sewing and arts and crafts. He changed his image into the tough guy we see as a result. The whole storyline isn't just about sewing bunnies. The storyline is about Kanji accepting that there's nothing wrong with liking those things and that it doesn't make him less of a man. The two are very connected.

I don't see the connection between a hobby and sexuality - at least not to the same level that it is presented in the game. The original point that he's being teased about is sewing and painting - if the question is about his gender and hobbies his dungeon would be better represented by presenting him more like... well... Martha Stewart instead of Hardo Gay.

Why does Labrys's shadow organize a tournament to kill people if all she wants is friends? Why does Rise's shadow prance around a bikini if Rise wants people to like her for who she is? The shadows and their corresponding dungeons are sometimes a mockery of their true feelings.

Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Arena but Rise's dungeon was her fear that she was only popular (and thus accepted) because of her body. Her Shadow was fully embracing that, almost relishing in the fact that she was being adored because she was beautiful while Rise seemed to reject that she would take pride in her looks. I thought that Rise did admit that she liked being seen almost like a sex symbol but that she also wanted to be more. At least, that was my understanding of it. I don't remember her social link very well.

I'd say that the bathhouse theme is a reflection of Kanji's desire to be manly and a symbol of his aversion to girls as a result of teasing as a child. After the fight his shadow pleads, "I don't care who… Won't someone, anyone, please accept me…?" Women aren't allowed in a men's bathhouse, so I'd say that the bathouse represents a place where no woman could tease him. Kanji's shadow specifically states that men are superior because they won't tease him, not because of sexual attraction.

Errr... I believe that bathhouses in Japan have a fairly strong association with "down low" homosexual activity. Also, if we're taking Shadow Kanji's words at face value he makes a number of insinuations during the first half of the dungeon about finding a man to know that seems pretty clear he means in the biblical sense.

Doesn't the bolded sort of prove the point? If Kanji was struggling with sexuality then he'd have to accept that to gain his persona. He never does because he didn't need to accept his sexuality. It's pretty obvious from the story that Kanji likes girls. The nosebleed he gets when seeing Yukiko and Chie in their bikinis, the way he treats Naoto during the ski trip, his later confession to Naoto in Arena, etc. I don't think the dungeon is misleading so much as some members of audience misinterpreted the subtext. The whole idea that Kanji is gay/bi seems so widespread despite the flimsy evidence and contradictions.

It seems the only thing you have to accept to receive your persona is that your shadow is you, which Kanji does begrudgingly but then tries to warp into some general acceptance amongst his peers. I'm just not buying that, if you're straight and have a semi-effeminate hobby, you're going to start dealing with queer issues. The nosebleed moment seems to me, as much as any other moment throughout the game, to just be played for comedic effect. I mean, if we really want to get into it, why don't any of the other characters get a nosebleed when they see the girls in bikinis? Does that mean they aren't interested in them? Well... no, because even the Japanese know the nosebleed thing is a joke.

If I remember correctly, there's a moment during the culture fair when the girls are meant to have a swimsuit contest. Kanji seems especially excited to see Naoto in a swimsuit as they'll clear up his "doubts." Which, to me, suggests that he himself is at least struggling with his sexuality.

As a final point, if he is so sure of his sexuality I don't see people making fun of him about it having any impact on his inner demons. My friend gets called queer all the time because he's somewhat effeminate but it never bothered him because he knows he likes women. He never had the extreme "oh I've got to prove myself to my friends!" reaction. It doesn't make sense to throw up a whole bunch of sexual imagery in a person's mental dungeon if it isn't an issue for them in the least. Kanji's actions always felt like he had to convince everyone that these feelings weren't actually true and that's why he acted so unnaturally during the camping trip, vacation to the other school, the sleep over at the inn etc... It comes across as extreme machoism and bravado in an attempt to hide himself as something he's not.

I don't really see it as a missed opportunity, but then I honestly don't know what the intent of the writers were and what the process in creating his storyline was like. Given that Catharine had a trangendered character I'd like to think that Atlus just didn't actually intend on Kanji being bisexual or gay. I don't think they're afraid to tackle the issue.

tl;dr Long post is long and even as bi-gamer I'm not keen on the Kanji is gay interpretation.

I know that the translation team "changed" some of the dialogue when they brought it over to America so that really interferes with knowing what the original design was.

""We did encounter a small number of sexually oriented instances which we decided to make more subtle, but the meaning of everything is still intact," Namba said."
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/89016-Is-Persona-4s-Kanji-Gay-or-Not

The Catherine character is interesting in that it was handled better but was still used primarily for comedic relief. The only other instance, I'm aware of, that Atlus has dealt with gay issues was another moment of "they may be or they may not be, it's all up to fan interpretation!" in the second Persona game. I don't know if that means that they're unafraid of dealing with the issue or not. I do know that the topic is not as widely accepted in Japan as it is in America so who knows what their stance is on the issue.

As a bi-gamer myself, I just don't see how Kanji isn't at the very least bi too. On the one hand, it's nice for these issues to be addressed in the games, I just wish they didn't fall back on some stereotypes like "oh he likes girly things ergo he must be queer!" Personally, I think his struggle would have been more sympathetic if they did take a hard line on his sexuality.

tl:dr - It is just a video game character so in the end it really doesn't matter. It would be nice if the issue was dealt with well, though.

Ok this is the thing that always bothered my about Kanji's shadow. This has always been the opposite in my experience. There is nothing more homophobic than a teenage guy as Yosuke proves over and over again. Put too much effort into your appearance, take part in some sort of traditionally feminine hobby, or do just about anything that doesn't match the the traditional standard of "manliness," and at least half of the guys at school will call you a f*g. Girls on the other hand always ate that shit. The sensitive slightly effeminate guy was always surrounded by girls. Is it just the opposite in Japan or something? Again, Yosuke seems to prove that guys over there act the same as we do in the states. Is there something I'm missing?

No, it's not really opposite in Japan. I believe the effeminate guy in Persona 3 made references to friends that are girls. From personal experience, guys really aren't all that manly in Japan and that seems perfectly normal. At least, they definitely don't hold the same qualities as the west does about what is masculine. I saw a lot of kids show affection amongst themselves and painting wasn't really considered a feminine pursuit. Don't know about dolls though, none of my kids were that talented. To be fair, I worked a middle school and not a high school so maybe things were different there.
 
The Catherine character is interesting in that it was handled better but was still used primarily for comedic relief.
Erica has the revolting trope of comedic consensual sex with a partner who didn't know that she was transgendered, but I'm willing to swallow some of that because it shows the two of them still together in some of the endings.

Other than that, the slow and subtle realization that Erica is transgendered plays heavily into both the plot and theme of the game, and I thought it was a fantastic example of how diverse character types can enrich storytelling.


I do agree that the handling of Kanji's sexuality is far less than ideal, but ANY PORT IN A STORM. Atlus/Hashino deserves credit for at least half-assing it, rather than no-assing it.

But with that in mind, I know it's a separate can of worms best left unopened, but I still find some of Yosuke's dialogue towards Kanji utterly horrifying. As I mentioned in the P4 Golden thread, I do like that they at least give you a dialogue option to call him out on it.
 

Trigger

Member
It's Sunday morning and I've got finals this week, so I'll drop the long posts for now. :p

I suppose at the very least though we can thank Atlus for giving us such an interesting conversation topic.

Ok this is the thing that always bothered my about Kanji's shadow. This has always been the opposite in my experience. There is nothing more homophobic than a teenage guy as Yosuke proves over and over again. Put too much effort into your appearance, take part in some sort of traditionally feminine hobby, or do just about anything that doesn't match the the traditional standard of "manliness," and at least half of the guys at school will call you a f*g. Girls on the other hand always ate that shit. The sensitive slightly effeminate guy was always surrounded by girls. Is it just the opposite in Japan or something? Again, Yosuke seems to prove that guys over there act the same as we do in the states. Is there something I'm missing?

There are women who are just as traditional on the issue of gender roles as men. It's not unusual to encounter women who think that men shouldn't sew and do other feminine things. I'm not so sure it's a Japanese specific thing.
 
Unfortunately, I don't know anything about Arena but Rise's dungeon was her fear that she was only popular (and thus accepted) because of her body. Her Shadow was fully embracing that, almost relishing in the fact that she was being adored because she was beautiful while Rise seemed to reject that she would take pride in her looks. I thought that Rise did admit that she liked being seen almost like a sex symbol but that she also wanted to be more. At least, that was my understanding of it. I don't remember her social link very well.

Lmfao nooooooooooooooooooo. You got this all wrong.
 

Mieu

Member
Kanji is quite popular here eh? Hehe.. I don't have any issues with his sexuality. He's quite cool and he's not afraid to get in touch with his feminine side which every guy has. Also, his dialogue with Akihiko at P4A is hinting at his desires over men.

As for Labrys dungeon,
she was forced to fight with her friends (same units, earlier models of Aigis) and I think what fueled that feeling was she was forced to fight with a unit she was getting along with very well. IIRC, this was highlighted on her episode in P4A.
 
Erica has the revolting trope of comedic consensual sex with a partner who didn't know that she was transgendered, but I'm willing to swallow some of that because it shows the two of them still together in some of the endings.

Other than that, the slow and subtle realization that Erica is transgendered plays heavily into both the plot and theme of the game, and I thought it was a fantastic example of how diverse character types can enrich storytelling.


I do agree that the handling of Kanji's sexuality is far less than ideal, but ANY PORT IN A STORM. Atlus/Hashino deserves credit for at least half-assing it, rather than no-assing it.

But with that in mind, I know it's a separate can of worms best left unopened, but I still find some of Yosuke's dialogue towards Kanji utterly horrifying. As I mentioned in the P4 Golden thread, I do like that they at least give you a dialogue option to call him out on it.

I've said this before, but its a normal thing as a teenager to rib on your friends. Not one type of person is more of an asshole to other people than teenage friends these days. It is pretty realistic, while understandably annoying, it isn't too far done, well, maybe the camping trip was too far. The other times just seems like normal ribbing. Most teenagers are like Yosuke, and they make fun of their friends for anything, if anything, I would say Yosuke and Kanjis friendship is far more realistic than Yosuke and the MC's. I am curious, what is the ideal treatment of a sexuality like Kanji's?

Oh and, im talking about the game MC/Yu. Anime Yu went shockingly out of character from what he said just the episode before and did the whole"I thought you accepted me senpai!" "Not at night." bit, it destroyed some of Yu's character for the sake of comedy, THAT version of the camping trip was just bad.
 

BeesEight

Member
Erica has the revolting trope of comedic consensual sex with a partner who didn't know that she was transgendered, but I'm willing to swallow some of that because it shows the two of them still together in some of the endings.

Other than that, the slow and subtle realization that Erica is transgendered plays heavily into both the plot and theme of the game, and I thought it was a fantastic example of how diverse character types can enrich storytelling.

I do agree that the handling of Kanji's sexuality is far less than ideal, but ANY PORT IN A STORM. Atlus/Hashino deserves credit for at least half-assing it, rather than no-assing it.

True, but at least in one ending Toby still stays with Erica even after learning the truth which I was quite surprised by. And at the end of the day, something is better than nothing even if the set-up was really easy to explore.

It's Sunday morning and I've got finals this week, so I'll drop the long posts for now. :p

I suppose at the very least though we can thank Atlus for giving us such an interesting conversation topic.

Ha, agreed. If there's anything that seems to generate the most discussion about Persona 4, it's Kanji.

Lmfao nooooooooooooooooooo. You got this all wrong.

Well, I haven't played the game since it came out which I thought I was pretty clear on. I browsed the wiki though and it has this to say about Rise:

"Ironically, her original motivation of accepting the prize was so once she becomes popular, she would have more friends. However, she eventually realizes that her 'friends' are only interested in the fabricated personality of teen-idol 'Risette', but not Rise Kujikawa, the young girl from Yasoinaba .

Rise later found out that after she abandons showbiz, her old manager found another rising star, which greatly irritates her. By the end of the Social Link, Rise eventually realize that 'Risette' isn't a fabricated personality, but one of her many traits. Upon her realization, Rise exclaims that she would return to her job as an idol in spring, hoping to show the world her other traits other than 'Risette.'"

Given the form her shadow takes in her dungeon and the rather... obvious commercial they use at the beginning of the game (and if I remember correctly when news of her returning to Inaba spreads a lot of the school chatter is over how pretty she is) I think they make clear what the Risette personality is best known for.

I've said this before, but its a normal thing as a teenager to rib on your friends. Not one type of person is more of an asshole to other people than teenage friends these days. It is pretty realistic, while understandably annoying, it isn't too far done, well, maybe the camping trip was too far. The other times just seems like normal ribbing. Most teenagers are like Yosuke, and they make fun of their friends for anything, if anything, I would say Yosuke and Kanjis friendship is far more realistic than Yosuke and the MC's. I am curious, what is the ideal treatment of a sexuality like Kanji's?

I didn't mind Yosuke's reaction since it seems rather natural for some people to not accept it. On the other hand, I don't think Yosuke ever gets over it which seems kind of weird considering their continued friendship throughout the year. I can't remember if there's a moment where you can knock it off, but there's never really a moment where you can tell Kanji it's not an issue so there's that. Then again, since they were using Kanji's sexuality as a recurring joke, they really couldn't resolve and of the issues that it caused or else they wouldn't be able to make the jokes anymore.
 

Sophia

Member
Well, I haven't played Golden or Arena so the only information I'm working off is the original. Though, Arena was developed by a different company so I'm not sure how... much stock I'd put in their character developments.

Arena's story was written by the Trauma team basically, under direction of Hashino. It's canon. :p

I just got Aigis in my party in P3. *squee*

Ok this is the thing that always bothered my about Kanji's shadow. This has always been the opposite in my experience. There is nothing more homophobic than a teenage guy as Yosuke proves over and over again. Put too much effort into your appearance, take part in some sort of traditionally feminine hobby, or do just about anything that doesn't match the the traditional standard of "manliness," and at least half of the guys at school will call you a f*g. Girls on the other hand always ate that shit. The sensitive slightly effeminate guy was always surrounded by girls. Is it just the opposite in Japan or something? Again, Yosuke seems to prove that guys over there act the same as we do in the states. Is there something I'm missing?

You're not missing anything. It's Kanji's shadow. I don't think coherence is what it was going for more so as it was trying to antagonize him. It's a representation of his fears being used against him illogically.

Oh and, im talking about the game MC/Yu. Anime Yu went shockingly out of character from what he said just the episode before and did the whole"I thought you accepted me senpai!" "Not at night." bit, it destroyed some of Yu's character for the sake of comedy, THAT version of the camping trip was just bad.

I was always under the impression that Yu was just joking there. Spur of the moment funny. It's pretty normal among teenagers. It's not like the scene was meant to be taken seriously at all in any version of it.
 
I didn't mind Yosuke's reaction since it seems rather natural for some people to not accept it. On the other hand, I don't think Yosuke ever gets over it which seems kind of weird considering their continued friendship throughout the year. I can't remember if there's a moment where you can knock it off, but there's never really a moment where you can tell Kanji it's not an issue so there's that. Then again, since they were using Kanji's sexuality as a recurring joke, they really couldn't resolve and of the issues that it caused or else they wouldn't be able to make the jokes anymore.


He kind of does. He was actually scared that Kanji would try something on him in the tent. Later on, he just teases him, like the broish dick/dickish bro he is. He even tells him in a dungeon convo if you don't have Kanji and Yosuke in your party...well Kanji is worrying about something about something dunno, and Yosuke exclaims, "Don't worry, we love you man!........er....not in that way..." He does accept Kanji, but that doesn't mean he wont tease him about it. In that instance, he wasn't teasing him, but for some reason thought he would misunderstand him. In Arena, you get to see the inside of Yosuke's head, with the internal monologues. In his head, he refers to Kanji as a good guy and a brave kid. He does tease Kanji once or twice, but much less than before. Oddly, this time, Teddie is the one who is scared of Kanji and teases him a lot, it feels out of character.

Soph: I agree, but it still feels weird. I guess I got used to my MC sitting there all nonchalant and just chillin' hah. It just sort of felt off because not one episode ago he was acting accepting and "Everyone has their thing." Yu is just the master of deadpan.
 

Sophia

Member
Soph: I agree, but it still feels weird. I guess I got used to my MC sitting there all nonchalant and just chillin' hah. It just sort of felt off because not one episode ago he was acting accepting and "Everyone has their thing." Yu is just the master of deadpan.

Yeah. You never really can tell if he's joking or not. He almost certainly didn't mean that in a homophobic way however. Him and Kanji get revenge on Yosuke in Persona 4 Arena anyhow. It's one of the funniest scenes in the game. :D

On the other hand, Yosuke does seem to have some homophobic tendencies, however unintentional on his part. It gets taken up to eleven in Arena. ><;
 
Yeah. You never really can tell if he's joking or not. Him and Kanji get revenge on Yosuke in Persona 4 Arena anyhow. It's one of the funniest scenes in the game. :D

Do you agree with me that Teddie's characterization regarding Kanji felt way off in Arena? In a smaller way, Rise's does too.
 

Sophia

Member
Do you agree with me that Teddie's characterization regarding Kanji felt way off in Arena? In a smaller way, Rise's does too.

The only person whose characterization felt off was Yosuke, and only in the "HOLY CRAP KANJI IS GOING TO RAPE ME" kind of way. It's only really in that one scene, as he goes back to acting normal later on. The rest of the game was pretty on cue.
 
The only person whose characterization felt off was Yosuke, and only in the "HOLY CRAP KANJI IS GOING TO RAPE ME WAY" kind of way. The rest of the game was pretty on cue.

I don't recall Teddie ever being in fear of Kanji in P4 at all...and Rise was uncharacteristically rude to Kanji, but that may be due to the fact that they are in the same class, and so she knows him more than the others. Kanji in P4A isn't characterized by his sexuality much in P4A, but rather his semi low level of intelligence. He gets the best ending in the entire game due to his cluelessness. In other news, P4A Naoto seems cooler to me than normal Naoto because she doesnt wordswordswordswordswordswords as much.
 

Sophia

Member
I don't recall Teddie ever being in fear of Kanji in P4 at all...and Rise was uncharacteristically rude to Kanji, but that may be due to the fact that they are in the same class, and so she knows him more than the others. Kanji in P4A isn't characterized by his sexuality much in P4A, but rather his semi low level of intelligence. He gets the best ending in the entire game due to his cluelessness. In other news, P4A Naoto seems cooler to me than normal Naoto because she doesnt wordswordswordswordswordswords as much.

Well Rise was kidnapped in Persona 4 Arena, and does voice her complaints on it in one of the endings. People usually are ruder when malevolent shadows of robots kidnap you, hold you hostage for over a day, and nearly kill you.

Aformentioned scene with Yu and Kanji in Persona 4 Arena.
 

BeesEight

Member
He kind of does. He was actually scared that Kanji would try something on him in the tent. Later on, he just teases him, like the broish dick/dickish bro he is. He even tells him in a dungeon convo if you don't have Kanji and Yosuke in your party...well Kanji is worrying about something about something dunno, and Yosuke exclaims, "Don't worry, we love you man!........er....not in that way..." He does accept Kanji, but that doesn't mean he wont tease him about it.

Ha, I never used Yosuke once I had enough members to kick him from the group. So that's good to see.

Er... would you mind elaborating on this?

Actually, I'm not going to touch that topic. I remember it easily being the flimsiest of the kids' issues and beyond that my memory of Naoto is really hazy. The only thing that stuck with me was the operating table and the imagery of body parts being replaced. From what I've heard, Golden is pretty unabashedly forward with Naoto not being transgendered so it's a moot point.
 
Actually, I'm not going to touch that topic. I remember it easily being the flimsiest of the kids' issues and beyond that my memory of Naoto is really hazy. The only thing that stuck with me was the operating table and the imagery of body parts being replaced. From what I've heard, Golden is pretty unabashedly forward with Naoto not being transgendered so it's a moot point.

Remember, Chie is not a dominatrix towards Yukiko, Yukiko didnt want to be a princess, Kanji did not want to go and have sex in a bathhouse, Rise did not want to be a stripper, Teddie is not an ultra nhillist.
 

BeesEight

Member
Remember, Chie is not a dominatrix towards Yukiko, Yukiko didnt want to be a princess, Kanji did not want to go and have sex in a bathhouse, Rise did not want to be a stripper, Teddie is not an ultra nhillist.

I'm pretty sure the jury is still out on Chie wanting a banana head.
 
Wow, very interesting posts by Trigger and BeesEight.

So what was up with those ugly midwinter outfits? Did you guys see that Bolo Tie that Naoto was wearing?
 

jae

Member
Finished 3 playthroughs of Golden already. Shame on me for waiting this long. I remember disliking 2 way back in the ps1 days so I avoided the series.

Haven't read through the thread yet because I am about to start P3P.

Great OP image.

http://i.imgur.com/9PSYz.jpg
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Miss Yamano.

Namatame - in the hospital.

Miss Kashiwagi - A mentally broken desperate woman.

Egypt teacher - Mentally ill

Puppet teacher - same

other bitter divorced teacher - a god damn mess

Dojima - A booze hound obsessed with his dead wife, and way worse off if you get the bad ending where his only daughter dies permanently.

Yukiko's mom - So overworked that she faints at work and needs her daughter to pick up the slack.

Kanji's mom - Her husband is dead, and her son is in constant trouble

Yumi's mom - Married to a dying scumbag

Eri (young mother/temperance social link) - Married to a guy who kept his kid hidden and uses her like a fucking Nanny. She has no life or ambition beyond taking care of that shitty brat who isn't even her blood.

Daidara - Look at that dudes face! He's seen some shit!

Shop Lady - Probably diabetes from being so fat.

Liqour store parents - Dead daughter, annoying emo son.

Persona 3

The male swimming stars parents are a fuck up.

Mitsuros mom is a widow

Yukari's mom is a widow

The bookstore elderly people had their son die at a young age.

Man, I was just thinking that if Atlus ever actually wanted appeal to western audiences with Persona 5, all they'd really have to do is make a similar game on current gen consoles with an all adult cast. In my mind it'd center around an office building instead of a school, and probably take place in a nondescript western city like Catherine. They'd probably never do it, but the setting and cast of Catherine at least show that the idea isn't out of the question.

Anyway, has anyone in this thread tried to guess the platform for P5? Looking at Atlus' recent history, I'd say a PS3/Vita combination is most likely, possibly with a 360 version as well. A Wii U version would be interesting but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 

Trigger

Member
Anyway, has anyone in this thread tried to guess the platform for P5? Looking at Atlus' recent history, I'd say a PS3/Vita combination is most likely, possibly with a 360 version as well. A Wii U version would be interesting but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I think consoles with a re-release for handhelds again.
 

Squire

Banned
The things that make Persona great are so cerebral there's no point in changing anything to try and get the series to go mainstream.

And I have nothing against the mainstream, but they've shown time and again they don't like these games.
 

jello44

Chie is the worst waifu
3DS exclusive.

Oh man, can you imagine the reaction? ;)

Meeeeeeeeeh. It'd be one more reason for me to get one if that was the case.

That would bring it up to..... 2 games.

Finished 3 playthroughs of Golden already. Shame on me for waiting this long. I remember disliking 2 way back in the ps1 days so I avoided the series.

Haven't read through the thread yet because I am about to start P3P.

Great OP image.

http://i.imgur.com/9PSYz.jpg

Kill it KILL IT!

Is he also Adachi?

Nooooooooope.
 

Laughing Banana

Weeping Pickle
Kanji was initially attracted to Naoto because he thought she was a boy. It seems to me, given his refusal to accept his attraction to guys, that Naoto feeds into his desire to still be a "manly" man.

I can understand why Atlus didn't really go into it any more. As you say, they were treating it more for comedic effect and if they had him accept his sexuality then they wouldn't be able to have the scripted jokes later on. Missed opportunities and what not.

Huh? When did the game ever insinuate that?

He felt awkward due to him feeling strange to a person he first thought is a guy, yes, but IIRC at no point of the game it's suggested that Kanji felt attracted to Naoto because he thought she was a guy.

What I think happening is Kanji felt attracted to her due to her approaching him without reservations despite his status as a resident troublemaker.

Also, just a side note: Persona 4 is a very strong adherence to the Beautiful equals goodness and Evil Makes You Ugly trope, huh. Pretty much nearly all unattractive people are relegated to positions as villains or unsympathetic characters, hahaha.
 
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