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Peter Moore: Disc Based Gaming Is A "Burning Platform"

Lowrider007, I would suggest doing some research on the principle of first sale. Its a very simple idea but profoundly important one in this debate.
 
StuKen said:
Lowrider007, I would suggest doing some research on the principle of first sale. Its a very simple idea but profoundly important one in this debate.
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How about you teach us.
 
But lawrider this is just an imaginery construct, its not real. And the courts agree its not realm, because as you say its not enforceable. Once the courts catch on to DD they will also agree that its not real there.

lowrider007 said:
How about you teach us.
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The first-sale doctrine is a limitation on copyright that was recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1908 and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. The doctrine allows the purchaser to transfer (i.e., sell or give away) a particular lawfully made copy of the copyrighted work without permission once it has been obtained. This means that the copyright holder's rights to control the change of ownership of a particular copy end once that copy is sold, as long as no additional copies are made. This doctrine is also referred to as the "first sale rule" or "exhaustion rule."
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lowrider007 said:
Uh ? I've already agreed that it is hard to enforce License agreements in a court of law, and please explain to me how they are taking away consumer rights ?, this is not a pair of shoes, IP is veritable mine field of legality's compared to most consumer products on the market as LEGALLY the IP holder owns the IP and is to a certain extent protected by the law, are you saying that I can purchase one copy of Windows 7 and install it on 10 system's using the same Product ID ?, because apparently my licensing agreement doesn't allow that.
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How are they not? Right now, I have the right to sell my copy of a game to someone else. In the new plan, I can't do that anymore. I've lost a right. This isn't hard, man.
 
robertsan21 said:
Physical media cost + Higher developer cost is = higher cost! bad for us consumers and developers/publishers

Downloadable games + higher developer cost is= less cost! no need to ship stuff, no need to have machines burning discs with games on them, more inviromental friendly, better for us consumers and developers/publishers.

I say Downloadable games is the future and I want it tomorrow!
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Holy shit.
 
Kosma said:
But lawrider this is just an imaginery construct, its not real. And the courts agree its not realm, because as you say its not enforceable. Once the courts catch on to DD they will also agree that its not real there.
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If you really beleive that then there's no point carrying this on there is noway on this planet courts are going to force publishers to allow consumers to sell on there DD content.
 
Not convinced that the Internet will be able to keep up with the sheer amount of data that games are amassing. If people want to have the same fidelity with their games (a la PS3/Xbox 360), I just can't see DD only on a console being feasible.
 
lowrider007 said:
If you really beleive that then there's no point carrying this on there is noway on this planet courts are going to force publishers to allow consumers to sell on there DD content.
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Wanna make a bet?

There is no way the courts in Europe won't force publishers to allow consumers to sell their DD content within the next decade.

Unless the publishers make their content available for rent that is.
 
You are wasting your time with this discussion. Physical is no going anywhere, and if the industry decides to go DD only is their call because it´s their business, you are only limited to say if you accept it or not as individual user.

Why do you spend so much time discussing how much you dislike or not an hypothetical scenario?
 
Acosta said:
You are wasting your time with this discussion. Physical is no going anywhere, and if the industry decides to go DD only is their call because it´s their business, you are only limited to say if you accept it or not as individual user.

Why do you spend so much time discussing how much you dislike or not an hypothetical scenario?
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Why do you spend time discussing anything? It's a discussion board, sassypants.
 
Kosma said:
Wanna make a bet?

There is no way the courts in Europe won't force publishers to allow consumers to sell their DD content within the next decade.
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Well I'm not going anywhere, Ban bet is on tbh, although this will probably be the longest ban bet ever made on these forums as the outcome probably won't be known your years.

And I'm sticking to EU law btw.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
Why do you spend time discussing anything? It's a discussion board, sassypants.
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Worthless discussions are still worthless. Discuss about real things, not fantasy scenarios.

I'm going to open a thread discussing how gaming it´s going to be when our lizard overlords take over the world, I expect you there.
 
Oh gee, it's THIS thread again...Digital Distribution vs Physical Format Part 132432923803270

Unless they offer some sort of coherent and FAIR sharing/lending/trading/discounting refunding system, an all DD format would screw over consumers. Physical is the way to go.

If all games were DD only, but half the cost of the physical copies (even without the ability to share, trade, sell, or get a refund), I'd consider it.
 
lowrider007 said:
Well I'm not going anywhere, Ban bet is on tbh, although this will probably be the longest ban bet ever made on these forums as the outcome probably won't be known your years.

And I'm sticking to EU law btw.
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Sure thing.

Im off to write a letter of complaint to the responsible authorities.
 
Acosta said:
I'm going to open a thread discussing how gaming it´s going to be when our lizard overlords take over the world, I expect you there.
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I am definitely down for that thread.

I expect you in every thread talking about the future poo-pooing the discussion, though, okay?
 
The Blue Jihad said:
YES.

Two words. Paradigm shift.

The problem with a forum like GAF talking about DD vs physical media is that most gaffers are completely insane when it comes to game purchases (sorry, GAF, but in your hearts you know it to be true). The Monthly Haul threads are enough to make me wretch. Most pictures in those threads each show hundreds of dollars worth of game purchases and that's on a monthly basis.

No normal human being does that. No normal human being hyperfocuses that much on displaying little boxes. No normal human being buys/sells/re-buys games or systems.

For most gaffers, gaming isn't a hobby. It's an addiction.

I'd venture the biggest reason behind DD opposition is their own awareness of that addiction. Sure, you see questions like "but what happens when I want to sell or lend a game" but in all fairness, the better question to ask is "why are you buying so many games that you'd ever need or want to sell them?"

Past few decades, I think there's been a lot of enabling going on. Developers/publishers/manufacturers have enabled gamers to buy huge amounts of games that ultimately they're not going to have time to play. And gamers have enabled developers/publishers/manufacturers to continue pushing games out at unsustainable levels to the point of market saturation and developer collapse.

That's why there needs to be a change in how things operate. Gamers need to change their buying habits. The industry needs to change their dev/publish/manufacturing habits.

Which brings me back to paradigm shift. lol
Click to expand...

while I don't think we need to change buying habits, I do agree that the object fetishism prevalent on gaf is a big reason why there's so much pushback against DD on here.
 
Segata Sanshiro said:
Hilarious advice on a message board dedicated to creations of a fantastical nature.
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Games look pretty real to me, don't tell me your games are made of magical chocolate.
 
Dear Neelie,

Hello! I'm a level 80 druid on the EU realm of Skullcrusher, I used to heal a lot, but now in patch 6.5 Blizzard nerfed rejuv so I can't get into parties anymore. I want to sell my account but Blizzard won't let me!

Also Valve released CS 1.6 which blowz, and they wont let me sell CS that I got from Steam.

FIX PLZ!

Kind regards,
HealerTreeHippy
 
Acosta said:
Games look pretty real to me, don't tell me your games are made of magical chocolate.
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Solid Snake is not a real person, you know. If you're so down on things that aren't real, shouldn't you be doing the NY Times Crossword instead of pretending you're a superhero?
 
DD has its benefits, there is no doubt about that but I think comparing whats happened with the music industry to what may happen in the video game market has its flaws. I certainly think that DD suits music more than video games for the following reasons:

1. People want their music to be portable. Today people are more than likely to throw all their music on an ipod or equivalent device. Why? So they can choose from their whole collection when they are driving in a car, taking their music around to their friends house, or walking through the park. It makes sense to get the music in a format that is instantly compatible with your mp3 player. On the other hand this is not an issue that concerns console owners. You are not likely to be playing your xbox 360 while driving in a car or walking in the park and if you do take the console around to a friends house, its such a large thing to lug around, that taking around a few game cases is not seen as being a huge problem.

2. Multiple choice: Sure iTunes is by far the most popular online store for music but its not the only one. If i want to buy an album I have a choice whether it is from iTunes, Amazon, Zune Marketplace or some other store. And with music stores moving towards a no DRM future, it doesn't matter where I buy it from, it will work on my particular device. Now, lets say we live in the future, do you really see Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft allowing rival DD stores? No, if you want a game on the Wii HD, the PS4 or the Xbox 720 you will only have one choice, and if history shows anything, that inevitably leads to the consumer being screwed.

3. No conflicting interest: Probably relates to the last point but I'll say it anyway. Apple may make iPods but they don't make the music that goes on it. Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft do make video games that go on their consoles. With them also now being in charge of sole distribution of games on their platform can they really be trusted to work with the customers best interest at heart?

There are other reasons as well that I can think of but these will do for now. Just because it works with the music industry doesn't mean it will work with the VG industry. Now DD certainly has its advantages BUT it has many disadvantages as well and I certainly dont see retail dying out anytime soon. Will DD become more prevalent? Sure! Will retail be considered as dead a dodo by 2020? Not likely...
 
DD works for me for side services like the VC or Ware type games, but if it eventually completely takes over gaming as Moore states, then it is time for me to bow out.

Will always prefer a hardcopy for something I buy.
 
jorma said:
Admit it; now you just want people to think you are as pretty as robertsan...
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Oh, I know I'm not as pretty as robertsan. That cat is fucking good-looking, and that's coming from a straight guy. I'm just saying he isn't always the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, that's all.
 
Pureauthor said:
Well this thread took an odd turn.
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Nothing odd here, this is Neogaf dude.


Kosma said:
Dear Neelie,

Hello! I'm a level 80 druid on the EU realm of Skullcrusher, I used to heal a lot, but now in patch 6.5 Blizzard nerfed rejuv so I can't get into parties anymore. I want to sell my account but Blizzard won't let me!

Also Valve released CS 1.6 which blowz, and they wont let me sell CS that I got from Steam.

FIX PLZ!

Kind regards,
HealerTreeHippy
Click to expand...

:lol
 
Undertaker, you forgot to add that for many a music collection is something that they want to be able to enjoy in 20 years too.

Most gamers only play a game once. They dont need a license to keep playing it in 20 years for every game, cause they usually won't.
 
The Blue Jihad said:
YES.

Two words. Paradigm shift.

The problem with a forum like GAF talking about DD vs physical media is that most gaffers are completely insane when it comes to game purchases (sorry, GAF, but in your hearts you know it to be true). The Monthly Haul threads are enough to make me wretch. Most pictures in those threads each show hundreds of dollars worth of game purchases and that's on a monthly basis.

No normal human being does that. No normal human being hyperfocuses that much on displaying little boxes. No normal human being buys/sells/re-buys games or systems.

For most gaffers, gaming isn't a hobby. It's an addiction.

I'd venture the biggest reason behind DD opposition is their own awareness of that addiction. Sure, you see questions like "but what happens when I want to sell or lend a game" but in all fairness, the better question to ask is "why are you buying so many games that you'd ever need or want to sell them?"

Past few decades, I think there's been a lot of enabling going on. Developers/publishers/manufacturers have enabled gamers to buy huge amounts of games that ultimately they're not going to have time to play. And gamers have enabled developers/publishers/manufacturers to continue pushing games out at unsustainable levels to the point of market saturation and developer collapse.

That's why there needs to be a change in how things operate. Gamers need to change their buying habits. The industry needs to change their dev/publish/manufacturing habits.

Which brings me back to paradigm shift. lol
Click to expand...
Thank you. It's a paradigm shift. It's like Blockbuster vs Netflix. Blockbuster is the old, dinosaur model of renting movies. Things can change drastically in just a few years. The kinks of DD still need to be worked out but it is the future and I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a majority of games be DD in the next generation.
 
DD will arrive because publishers want to prevent used sales, and want to prevent piracy. DD helps with both of those.

You won't have a choice, other than to not buy the console/PC.

There are already DD only games - on PSN and XBLA and DSi


as for 'some people won't have internet'. Finland has already declared 1Mb broadband 'a legal right' and the UK is looking to give everyone in the country access to a minimum 2Mb broadband. Within the next 10 years I expect it to be a European human right (as fucked up as that might be)

So in developed markets internet won't be an issue. Even the sizes aren't a big deal - add in some steam style preloading with overnight internet to appease ISPs and delivery is sorted
 
DD and DRM don't prevent piracy. They don't. It can't be state too many time. DD and DRM don't prevent piracy.

DD can prevent day 1 piracy, but the games will still be pirated in a week or two.
 
mrklaw said:
You won't have a choice, other than to not buy the console/PC.
Click to expand...

I think this will happen.
How many million less consoles will MS/Sony/Nintendo sell when they loose the people not willing to get about the DD-train?

I think ALOT!
Because this is what I have seen with "average joes/janes" the casuals when it comes to music/movies. People use Spotify (free) instead of buying music, then rent DD movies but they never BUY them.
So the only way for MS/Sony/Nintendo to keep the "average joes/janes" the casuals playing would be to add a rental plan for games, and I'm not so sure they even want that.
 
The Blue Jihad said:
YES.

Two words. Paradigm shift.

The problem with a forum like GAF talking about DD vs physical media is that most gaffers are completely insane when it comes to game purchases (sorry, GAF, but in your hearts you know it to be true). The Monthly Haul threads are enough to make me wretch. Most pictures in those threads each show hundreds of dollars worth of game purchases and that's on a monthly basis.

No normal human being does that. No normal human being hyperfocuses that much on displaying little boxes. No normal human being buys/sells/re-buys games or systems.

For most gaffers, gaming isn't a hobby. It's an addiction.

I'd venture the biggest reason behind DD opposition is their own awareness of that addiction. Sure, you see questions like "but what happens when I want to sell or lend a game" but in all fairness, the better question to ask is "why are you buying so many games that you'd ever need or want to sell them?"

Past few decades, I think there's been a lot of enabling going on. Developers/publishers/manufacturers have enabled gamers to buy huge amounts of games that ultimately they're not going to have time to play. And gamers have enabled developers/publishers/manufacturers to continue pushing games out at unsustainable levels to the point of market saturation and developer collapse.

That's why there needs to be a change in how things operate. Gamers need to change their buying habits. The industry needs to change their dev/publish/manufacturing habits.

Which brings me back to paradigm shift. lol
Click to expand...


Why do u need to sell your games??

To get some money to buy a new one? No need to let an unused game gather dust if u can get some money out of it.
I on the ohter hand don't sell them, i trade them on a forum. In reality that means that for every 60 euro i spend on a game i get to play 2-4 games.

example of my last games trade: bought Call of juarez, traded it for Halo odst, which i traded for Operation Flashback last week.

With DD this won't be possible, which is a shame. Means i will get to play a lot less games.

edit: u have a point that this does not apply to the general public. (although i do think that if the general public knew about forums like this they would use it too)
 
If they come up with some kind of return policy then I'm all for it. No way in hell I'd spend 60 bucks on something I can't even trade in or resell myself if I don't like it.

Maybe come up with something like the way XBLA does it where you dl the game for free, and get a trial section, then it gives you the option to buy it or not.
 
You know, if I was GameStop, I would be arguing for amendments to the DMCA that would force DD platforms to adopt things like the First Use doctrine. Require a third-party marketplace on open and closed platforms. When someone sells a game to said marketplace, that copy is no longer playable on unit/computer.
 
I love it when the videogame industry tells us, the consumer, how it's going to be. Quotes like these show how out of touch the people in the videogame industry are. They think they can dictate what we will buy in the future. I see that going really well for them - like when Sony told us we'd buy a $600 console and like it. Yeah, that worked out very well didn't it.

It really is funny how anyone can think that dictating to the consumer is a sound business strategy. "You will buy DD and you will like it because it's the future!" The videogame industry desperately needs a major crash in order to get these idiots who have run things into the ground out.
 
I will never buy a DD only Console

I will quit gaming when I can no longer get my games on physical media.


I have purchased two games on XBLA in total, MTG and Puzzle quest. XBLA is fine with me as I understand it's purpose and value. But that in no way makes me any more open to getting real A list titles digitally.


I laugh at the people buying games through DD right now on xbox, paying more then the boxed version for frequently inferior copies that don't have the DLC's included like the platnium or GOTY versions of the games their downloading. Mass Effect and Oblivion for instance.


I am a patient man and I always wait a year or so after a games release to see if a special edition will be released with all the DLC content bundeled so I can get it physically. I just bought Fallout GOTY and I'm loving it.
 
I think this is a soluton looking for a problem.

What do i gain? Not having to go to the store? I already have to go to the store to buy groceries
 
The problem with trying to predict the death of disc based gaming is that the future technologies for rendering graphics are unknown. An endless thirst exists to improve the graphic fidelity of games, which in turn can cause the data size of games to continue to take up a larger memory footprint.

Look at what John Carmack is doing with RAGE engine and "mega textures". The game is going to be close to 25 gigs with todays technology.

I expect the Playstation 4 Blu-Ray drive to read at least a 4-layer disc and it is certainly possible for 8-layer or even 16-layer.


Perhaps video games 10 years from now will take up terrabytes of data and holographic discs might be needed.
 
My primary issue with DD is will I be able to go back 10, 15 years after a game is originally released and still get it? Probably not. Right now I am having fun seeking out complete SNES and N64 games and building up a collection for those systems. I am looking for Super Tecmo Bowl on SNES right now. If that game had been DD way back when it came out and never released on cartridge, it would be impossible for me to go and download it now because of licensing issues. That's one of the things I am afraid of. Games are already a medium where a lot of historically important titles are difficult for someone today obtain and play (legally). DD could make it even harder in the future for some games. Do you guys think that in 2024 I will still be able to boot up my Xbox 360 and go download Castle Crashers?
 
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