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[shpankey]

you meant 30fps i think.

like i said, i am not one of the people who won't accept it. i said in the post just above if that's what it comes out as, i will go with it, be happy and not look back or complain (what's don'e is done in my book). i very much enjoyed PGR2 and Forza at 30fps and if that's what PGR3 is gonna be, i will enjoy it just as much. that doesn't mean i can't still apreciate 60fps, cause i can and do.

but don't mind me.. i'm just yakin

 

[Ryudo]

The sooner you accept 60fps the better off you'll be. Console games don't let you toggle graphics options. Just get over it.

60fps is better yes, but 30fps doesnt = half the fun like a select few make it out to be.

 

[Gek54]

The sooner you accept 60fps the better off you'll be. Console games don't let you toggle graphics options. Just get over it.

Actually several console games do let you toggle graphics options.

Motion blur helps part of the problem. The deal with 60 versus 30 is that with high motion your visual cortex has to work twice as hard to estimate movement and accuracy becomes more difficult to achieve. As we all know, with 60fps you will see the image go from A to B to C to D to E every 1/60th of a second. Comparatively at 30fps the image jumps from A skipping B to C skipping D to E and when you should be seeing the image in position B your brain is left think where the fuck am I, why am I still at A and by the time it gets to point C your brain wants to know wants to know how the hell it got from A all the way to C. Motion blur helps your brain with the history of movement. When you get to C the blur well let you see where point B would have been if you actually got to see it but blur doesn’t help when it comes to judging speed and distance of up coming turns or obstacles. You will still see the image hop twice as far.

No fighting game is going to be 30fps and try to hide it behind blur. Nothing replaces the extra frames needed to make accurate reactions to quick motion.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

I was just thinking: there's no free roam mode in the game right? Why not? If Bizarre has the entire city modeled, wouldn't it be easy to just remove the barriers in the middle of a street and let people drive around however they want? Is it a memory issue or what, because it sounds like a perfect mode to include with the level of detail that they already have in the game.

 

[Sathsquatch]

Its too bad that Bizarre needs to get this game out so soon. They said that they could have gotten it to 60 FPS if they had four more months, but man does MS ever need this game at launch. Even at 30 FPS, this is clearly the best graphical showcase for the system. Hopefully, this is the game will be the one that turns heads when people walk by the kiosk.

I agree that they should have put in the option to play this game at standard definition or 480 p at 60FPS. I really don't know why they didn't do that.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"The deal with 60 versus 30 is that with high motion your visual cortex has to work twice as hard to estimate movement and accuracy becomes more difficult to achieve. As we all know, with 60fps you will see the image go from A to B to C to D to E every 1/60th of a second. Comparatively at 30fps the image jumps from A skipping B to C skipping D to E and when you should be seeing the image in position B your brain is left think where the fuck am I, why am I still at A and by the time it gets to point C your brain wants to know wants to know how the hell it got from A all the way to C. Motion blur helps your brain with the history of movement. When you get to C the blur well let you see where point B would have been if you actually got to see it but blur doesn’t help when it comes to judging speed and distance of up coming turns or obstacles. You will still see the image hop twice as far."

I think you're taking PGR too seriously.

 

[Yusaku]

I was just thinking: there's no free roam mode in the game right? Why not? If Bizarre has the entire city modeled, wouldn't it be easy to just remove the barriers in the middle of a street and let people drive around however they want? Is it a memory issue or what, because it sounds like a perfect mode to include with the level of detail that they already have in the game.

Unless they're stupid they're only modeling the parts you can see from the track.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

JESUS FUCKITY CHRIST

STOP THE 60/30FPS BULLSHIT YOU FUCKTARDS!

I can't believe you jackasses. Every fucking thread. This argument should be grounds for a fucking ban.

 

[Yusaku]

Actually several console games do let you toggle graphics options.

Motion blur helps part of the problem. The deal with 60 versus 30 is that with high motion your visual cortex has to work twice as hard to estimate movement and accuracy becomes more difficult to achieve. As we all know, with 60fps you will see the image go from A to B to C to D to E every 1/60th of a second. Comparatively at 30fps the image jumps from A skipping B to C skipping D to E and when you should be seeing the image in position B your brain is left think where the fuck am I, why am I still at A and by the time it gets to point C your brain wants to know wants to know how the hell it got from A all the way to C. Motion blur helps your brain with the history of movement. When you get to C the blur well let you see where point B would have been if you actually got to see it but blur doesn’t help when it comes to judging speed and distance of up coming turns or obstacles. You will still see the image hop twice as far.

No fighting game is going to be 30fps and try to hide it behind blur. Nothing replaces the extra frames needed to make accurate reactions to quick motion.

Motionblur negates your whole point. Not just part of it, all of it.

 

[Gek54]

Motionblur negates your whole point. Not just part of it, all of it.

Wrong, motion blur only smooths out the trail of the object in motion. It is the point of the object that leads the motion will still jump and there lies the main problem. Motion blur also negates the extra detail you would otherwise get a glimps of as you would drive past.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I TOOK A SHIT IN THIS MCDONALDS!!! (top/right corner)

i remember that day so vividly, mainy because my stomach cramped up and i had to go, and i went there and you have to buy food to be able to use the bathroom!

 

[krypt0nian]

I TOOK A SHIT IN THIS MCDONALDS!!! (top/right corner)

i remember that day so vividly, mainy because my stomach cramped up and i had to go, and i went there and you have to buy food to be able to use the bathroom!

OMG! What did you buy?

 

[Wario64]

I TOOK A SHIT IN THIS MCDONALDS!!! (top/right corner)

i remember that day so vividly, mainy because my stomach cramped up and i had to go, and i went there and you have to buy food to be able to use the bathroom!

lol microtransactions rest room

 

[krypt0nian]

lol microtransactions rest room

I lol'd. :lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

OMG! What did you buy?

a #2 (yes, really)

 

[DenogginizerOS]

Now I take it your shit was at 30 fps or was it 60 fps?

 

[Timedog]

a #2 (yes, really)

I bet that tasted so good after having stomach cramps.




(no, i'm serious I eat mcdonalds every day)

 

[Timedog]

as soon as i downloaded that codec i needed to play the video, i got like 10 icons on my taskbar that I can't remove with an "FF" logo. Anyone else get this or know how to fix it?

 

[Gek54]

Another thing that metric pointed out is that all that great detail they put into PGR3's cities, which is probably the main reason for the 30fps and blur, goes to waste when driving.


This:

Goes to this:

 

[The Faceless Master]

I bet that tasted so good after having stomach cramps.




(no, i'm serious I eat mcdonalds every day)

didnt eat the mcd's till the evening... though i did drink the coke

 

[Yusaku]

Wrong, motion blur only smooths out the trail of the object in motion. It is the point of the object that leads the motion will still jump and there lies the main problem. Motion blur also negates the extra detail you would otherwise get a glimps of as you would drive past.

I'm not even sure you fully understand what motionblur is. You're not even making any sense, there is no "jump" in motionlbur, especially at 30fps. Motionblur doesn't hide detail because that detail is moving too fast for you to even appreciate it. Motionblur is what convinces our brain that a 24fps film is motion, and not just a bunch of flickering images. The whole reason why you've got such a hard-on for 60fps is because it's the only way you're convinced there's smooth motion without motionblur.

 

[Timedog]

it turns from a high res devkit snapshot to a capture from a crappy looking(comparatively) video??

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

I'm not even sure you fully understand what motionblur is. You're not even making any sense, there is no "jump" in motionlbur, especially at 30fps. Motionblur doesn't hide detail because that detail is moving too fast for you to even appreciate it. Motionblur is what convinces our brain that a 24fps film is motion, and not just a bunch of flickering images. The whole reason why you've got such a hard-on for 60fps is because it's the only way you're convinced there's smooth motion without motionblur.

No, Gek is right. We only think a 24 fps film is smooth because that's what we're used to. If you were to view a film at 60, and at 24, side by side, the difference would be obvious. Even with motion blur there are still "jumps" as the blur has to move as well. It just makes the jumps less jarring, and as Gek said, helps with motion history. The eye's saturation point is even above 60fps. That is not the point of blur, that is the point of smoothness of motion. They are not the same thing as you seem to imply. They are related, but not equivalent. 60fps with motion blur would look better than 60fps without, but 100fps would look better than both still. I'm having a bit of a tough time explaining it right now (too tired), so if you still have questions, I'll try again tommorow.

 

[Project Midway]

It's mainly Gek. He has just under a month, then his pass into PGR3 threads expires.

If the platform is right he can be pretty nice and forgiving guy.

Bact to topic, PGR looks shit hot!! But I think I'm ready to play this game already. Enough with new media!!*





*(just kidding, please continue Blimblim)

 

[Stinkles]

Wrong, motion blur only smooths out the trail of the object in motion. It is the point of the object that leads the motion will still jump and there lies the main problem. Motion blur also negates the extra detail you would otherwise get a glimps of as you would drive past.

Make up your mind Gek, sightseeeing or ninja-reactions. Why you want 60fps again?


Your are correct of course, 60fps is better than 30fps. BUT SO IS BLOW JOBS FROM ANGELINA JOLIE AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING THEM EITHER.

Christ.

 

[Liquid]

Another thing that metric pointed out is that all that great detail they put into PGR3's cities, which is probably the main reason for the 30fps and blur, goes to waste when driving.


This:

Goes to this:

why are you acting like it hasnt been posted a billion times that new york was unoptimized for one and for 2 80% of the demos shown have had texture streaming problems leading to the low res texture sets being in the game?

 

[Stinkles]

My Realistic PGR3 Experience:

I play a bunch of it. I take many phots of my McLaren F1.

Every time someone comes to my house from Nov 22nd til maybe January, I show them it on HDTV, even chicks.

I get frustrated trying to unlock some specific thing.

I get a cheat code. Open everything.

I am bummed because my car is not in the game.

I play it about once a month for a year.

 

[Gek54]

why are you acting like it hasnt been posted a billion times that new york was unoptimized for one and for 2 80% of the demos shown have had texture streaming problems leading to the low res texture sets being in the game?

This pic shows the game as it looks paused with all the blur active:

Now we have the car stopped we can clearly see all the fine texture detail:

Now either photomode adds detail or the blur just wipes it away.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"If the platform is right he can be pretty nice and forgiving guy."

:lol

 

[Gek54]

More like if the maker of a 30fps racer is a respected forum poster, I can be nice and forgiving for an underdog budget priced game. iirc I bitched about the framerate in those impresions while giving credit to diserving aspects of the game.

 

[dark10x]

Now either photomode adds detail or the blur just wipes it away.

I disagree...

When it is stopped and examined, you can clearly see that it is not real (though suprisingly close, in many ways). However, when in motion with the blur, you can detect realism, but are unable to focus on it. As a result of this, it actually may end up seeming MORE realistic.

That's why I'm so fond of various blur filters and the like. It really enhances a scene as it prevents you from being able to truly focus on the flaws.

Let's use a little MGS2 here (what the hell?)...

Obviously, there is some serious blurring being used in these shots. Without this blurring, we could very easily make out everything in the background. Every flaw would be revealed if blur was disabled, basically. However, in motion, the blur prevents us from actually picking out these details and the end effect allows the scene to seem more complex than it really is.

It's almost difficult for me to put this into words, really...

 

[Gek54]

Cinematic != Realistic

 

[Yusaku]

If the fucking scenary is moving by at 200mph you can't admire the detail with or without motionblur.

 

[Gek54]

You might have a point, but the car above is only going 70mph.

The most glaring example as to why 30fps sucks is to watch the inside wall of the very last corner at the end of the video(5:00-5:03). As the car approches, the wall pops around like crazy and that is what fucks me up when trying to judge a corner accurately and makes getting all plat a royal bitch.

 

[Timedog]

A static picture doesn't truly show what is going on, or at least what the brain percieves as going on. To test this, go to any dvd and pause is in a fast moving scene- it looks like blurry crap, but in motion it looks fine. In the video the scenery looks really realistic to me.

 

[Stinkles]

You might have a point, but the car above is only going 70mph.

The most glaring example as to why 30fps sucks is to watch the inside wall of the very last corner at the end of the video(5:00-5:03). As the car approches, the wall pops around like crazy and that is what fucks me up when trying to judge a corner accurately and makes getting all plat a royal bitch.

Wait a minute, so after all this time, all these posts, all this crazy bitching about 30fps vs 60fps, the reason you want 60fps is because you kinda suck at driving games?

I'm not claiming you do, I'm just asking...

 

[Udde]

I encoded a video YEARS ago. It was GT3 @ 60 fps and the same video of GT3 @ 30 fps

EVERYBODY (gamers and non gamers) that saw the video said that the 30fps (after seeing the 60fps, of course) was a lot worse, less real, more like an aged videogame, slow, boring, and more.

FACT

If Gek (and a lot of people) wants 60fps as standard in the nextOhMyGodSoPowerUnderTheHoodGen I think HE IS RIGHT, no question. And EVERYBODY should try and do the 30fps VS 60 fps thing. You will be surprised

PS: playing in X360 or PS3 (don't put the platform war here, please) at the frames I played Ridge Racer in PSX back in 1995 (10 years ago ) should be a crime

edit: Download finished. Cockpit view is awesome, and the lighting is really improved too I see something I hated about PGR2 (and others). It's the sudden change in detail of the road surface, look at the white lines for example. Its not the blur effect, because when they are near they look clean, and the blur effect should be applied to the nearest things. I don't know, maybe it's a truly bad strange video compression or something, but that PGR3 video is the worst I have seen. The car has a lot of jaggies too ?¿ The HUD has not them, so I think it's not abou the capture... Anyway, it seams it has the same gameplay than PGR2 (not bad if you liked it), but I was expecting a bit more

 

[Timedog]

I encoded a video YEARS ago. It was GT3 @ 60 fps and the same video of GT3 @ 30 fps

EVERYBODY (gamers and non gamers) that saw the video said that the 30fps (after seeing the 60fps, of course) was a lot worse, less real, more like an aged videogame, slow, boring, and more.

FACT

If Gek (and a lot of people) wants 60fps as standard in the nextOhMyGodSoPowerUnderTheHoodGen I think HE IS RIGHT, no question. And EVERYBODY should try and do the 30fps VS 60 fps thing. You will be surprised

PS: playing in X360 or PS3 (don't put the platform war here, please) at the frames I played Ridge Racer in PSX back in 1995 (10 years ago ) should be a crime

edit: Download finished. Cockpit view is awesome, and the lighting is really improved too I see something I hated about PGR2 (and others). It's the sudden change in detail of the road surface, look at the white lines for example. Its not the blur effect, because when they are near they look clean, and the blur effect should be applied to the nearest things. I don't know, maybe it's a truly bad strange video compression or something, but that PGR3 video is the worst I have seen. The car has a lot of jaggies too ?¿ The HUD has not them, so I think it's not abou the capture... Anyway, it seams it has the same gameplay than PGR2 (not bad if you liked it), but I was expecting a bit more

I specifically remember(for god knows what reason) the ad for Ridge Racer saying it was 60 frames per second. I haven't actually played the game though as I never owned a PSX.

 

[Trustus Jones]

This pic shows the game as it looks paused with all the blur active:

Now we have the car stopped we can clearly see all the fine texture detail:

Now either photomode adds detail or the blur just wipes it away.

I`d say It`s down to the samsung lcd screen it`s running on. I used to have one of these and the screen blurred the image slightly with fast movement and even more on panning from left to rights.

 

[eso76]

Billy Gates was here yesterday to promote X360 launch and i got to see some PGR3 footage on tv, during the news.
I thought it was a newer build; they showed some gameplay and a replay with 6 cars on screen at once. Framerate was solid and the game looked very smooth, it appeared much smoother than your usual 30fps. I was also bitching about the game not running at 60fps, but it's not bad at all, actually, it looks like something in between 30 and 60 and the progressive signal eliminates the typical interlaced mess of 30fps titles.

 

[Udde]

I specifically remember(for god knows what reason) the ad for Ridge Racer saying it was 60 frames per second. I haven't actually played the game though as I never owned a PSX.

WHAT?! I can tell you FOR SURE that the original Ridge Racer for PSX was ~30fps. The arcade was, of course, 60 fps. Anyway, with RRT4 there was a Hi-res version of RR running at 60 fps and in a higher resolution, like the GT Hi-spec mode in GT1. (that reminds me, if you want to see the difference in gameplay between 30 and 60, try the Hi-Spec (I'm not sure about the name) mode in GT1. The change is awesome.

 

[dark10x]

I maintain that there is NO BETTER WAY to experience the difference between various framerates that the usage of Quake/Quake II. The console allows you to limit the framerate to anything you wish. You can limit it to 60 fps and then simply switch to 30 fps.

The best method for testing is to bind the commands to a couple different keys and simply switch back and forth between them. You could even throw in some other framerates, if you so desired.

The best part about it is that virtually everyone with a PC can run these games at a rock solid 60 fps...so testing is possible on most machines. Of course, you'll want v-sync enabled for this test.

 

[mrklaw]

First: Gorgeous, gorgeious, gorgeous. Loved PGR2, will love PGR3.

Second: Environment mapping turned off I understand. But what about the shadow thing? Thats obvious in all videos on any track? Is that how it'll be? (car goes light/dark, shadows do not pass over it properly). Toca Race Driver did that properly and it really looked good.

No show stopper, but a disappointment.

 

[mrklaw]

I maintain that there is NO BETTER WAY to experience the difference between various framerates that the usage of Quake/Quake II. The console allows you to limit the framerate to anything you wish. You can limit it to 60 fps and then simply switch to 30 fps.

The best method for testing is to bind the commands to a couple different keys and simply switch back and forth between them. You could even throw in some other framerates, if you so desired.

The best part about it is that virtually everyone with a PC can run these games at a rock solid 60 fps...so testing is possible on most machines. Of course, you'll want v-sync enabled for this test.

I disagree. Thats the best way to compare two framerates in one game. Sure you'll like the faster one.

The points being argued (again!) are whether 30 is enough or not. The only proper way to determine that is to have two separate groups of people test separate 30 and 60 fps builds of a game which are otherwise identical, and compare their comments.

 

[dark10x]

The points being argued (again!) are whether 30 is enough or not.

That's not what I'm arguing, though...

30 fps *IS* enough for virtually any type of game, but I feel that 60 fps will ALWAYS yield a superior experience. Comparing the two within one game demonstrates just how much of a difference it can make and why it is always important (though its importance does vary quite a bit).

 

[Smilebit]

Some new replay footage...
PGR3 Replays

 

[op_ivy]

Some new replay footage...
PGR3 Replays

ahh, much thanks. i knew there was a reason this thread was still worth checking

 

[Blimblim]

Sorry to bump this topic, but I thought this was interesting. This is posted by ben of Bizarre on their official forum :

Nah our photomode uses in-game graphics - no funny tricks here. You can change the camera options (focus, motion blur etc.), but that's the limit of the artificiality.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I gotta go with Gek on this one.... there is no excuse for a 30fps racing game next gen. Hell there is no excuse for a 30fps racing game this gen.

All of you saying 30fps is 'good enough' have you ever played a 60fps racer?

 

[DarienA]

Nah our photomode uses in-game graphics - no funny tricks here. You can change the camera options (focus, motion blur etc.), but that's the limit of the artificiality.

Why the backhanded slap at GT's photo mode? It wasn't like Polyphony hid that there was extra "post processing" done in photo mode to make the models look better... hell I can't think of any game last gen that had in game car models good enough to look good in a photo mode...