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[Poetic.Injustice]

One of the more interesting subjects was Harrison's view on his former employers Microsoft and Sony and how they may be limiting themselves by going after the same market.

"I think Sony has done a very good job in making PlayStation 4 very popular around the world," says Harrison when asked to compare PS4 with the PlayStation models he was part of bringing to the world. "What I wonder about, and maybe a worry about a little bit is: Are both Microsoft and Sony growing the market? Are they building and investing in the content and broadening the experience to bring in more players. It looks to me from their public announcement at least that they are increasingly for the same kind of core, hardcore gamer. Whereas the Nintendo Switch has the opportunity to play to the wider audience. So it's going to be really interesting to see how the market dynamics play out over the next three or four years in console."

https://www.gamereactor.eu/news/559083/Harrison worries about Sony and MS focus on core gamers/

 

[oti]

*looks at Sony PlayLink*
I think they do, to some degree. Not on a hardware level like Nintendo, but still.

 

[McMoneyman]

I think Sony with an attractive price point and the games where you use your phone might pull in a lot of so called "casual gamers".

Singstar(a good one this time) and Buzz! using your phone would be awesome.

 

[Blablurn]

Didn't Sony just announce some multiplayer games, which you can use with your phone? And isn't one even Free on PS+ this month?

I don't get his fear at all.

Sony did a lot to gather casual gamers during PS2 and PS3 days. But as you can also see from many, many failed experiments, it's kinda tough to succeed in this market.

But they as I mentioned in the beginning, Sony is at least trying.

 

[Renekton]

The same question was already asked when Wii came out 😗

 

[Feorax]

I've got no interest in watching Sony/MS chase the casual market any more than they are right now. The balance is fine as it is.

 

[Trup1aya]

Without a doubt, the best strategy is to build a device for the core audience- then build out with experiences that can grow the audience.

Edit: That's one of the things MS got right with the 360. Launching a core friendly device, then relaunching with Kinect when the price was right. Too bad Kinect wasn't technically sound enough to maintain the interest of developers or consumers.

 

[Guymelef]

I don't understand this obsession with growing market.
It's not always about bringing more players, it's about keeping your players.

Wii showed us how irrelevant can be the "new players" for a long term...

 

[cw_sasuke]

Sony is investing in that future with VR and stuff like Play Link. Might take a while for it to reach a wider audience but there is potential growth.

MS...well....they have Minecraft now.

Otherwise....well the Switch is a hybrid system . so they wont be able to have the same type of appeal with traditional consoles, not that much they can do about it.

Software wise i would say that all 3 have content in work that appeals to a wider audience of gamers, so thats a no Phil.

The same question was already asked when Wii came out ��

...and ?

I don't understand this obsession with growing market.
It's not always about bringing more players, it's about keeping your players.

Wii showed us how irrelevant can be the "new players" for a long term...

How was that irrelevant ? Unless you are implying that everyone who played on Wii never upgrades or switched to other gaming systems.
DS/Wii were essential systems and brought in many new audiences...many of them continued playing on other consoles/phones after Wii was done.

 

[miller.skippins]

i think there's a reason why Sony has a mobile games division in Japan and MS purchased Minecraft for Billions of dollars.

 

[daxter01]

Ps4 probably gonna have 100+ million userbase at the end of the gen more than ps3 so thats a nice growth for sony

 

[ArtHands]

Didn't Sony just announce some multiplayer games, which you can use with your phone? And isn't one even Free on PS+ this month?

I don't get his fear at all.

Sony did a lot to gather casual gamers during PS2 and PS3 days. But as you can also see from many, many failed experiments, it's kinda tough to succeed in this market.

But they as I mentioned in the beginning, Sony is at least trying.

Just because it uses mobile phones in some form doesn't mean it is appealing to non-core gamers.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

*looks at Sony PlayLink*
I think they do, to some degree. Not on a hardware level like Nintendo, but still.

I think Sony with an attractive price point and the games where you use your phone might pull in a lot of so called "casual gamers".

Singstar(a good one this time) and Buzz! using your phone would be awesome.

Didn't Sony just announce some multiplayer games, which you can use with your phone? And isn't one even Free on PS+ this month?

Jackbox party pack didn't expand the market so why do you think playlink will? It'll be something that people mess around with for a bit at a party or family gathering but that's about it. People won't buy consoles because of it

 

[reptilescorpio]

It looks to me from their public announcement at least that they are increasingly for the same kind of core, hardcore gamer. Whereas the Nintendo Switch has the opportunity to play to the wider audience. So it's going to be really interesting to see how the market dynamics play out over the next three or four years in console.

I understand where he is coming from in terms of growing the market as a whole. Pointing to how Sony & Nintendo are trying to meld their core console market with the insanely huge mobile market is probably the easiest track towards expanding the market again.

Microsoft is the company most at risk here considering their smaller first party portfolio, stronger emphasis on 'hardcore gamer' titles and mobile market disconnect. Microsoft has a different plan towards increasing the market though of course. Considering Phil has experience at the top of both Sony & Microsoft I'd be interested in his thoughts on what they could actually do.

 

[Trup1aya]

I don't understand this obsession with growing market.
It's not always about bringing more players, it's about keeping your players.

Wii showed us how irrelevant can be the "new players" for a long term...

Businesses want growth. They want to keep their customers, add new ones, and keep the new ones too.

No one is aiming to trade their old customers for new one.

 

[oti]

Jackbox party pack didn't expand the market so why do you think playlink will? It'll be something that people mess around with for a bit at a party or family gathering but that's about it. People won't buy consoles because of it

Because Jackbox isn't Sony.
Sony could release a Party Bundle with those games and a new SingStar or something. Unless we're talking completely new hardware (like a PS4 Switch tablet) or something like new motion controls there's not much else they can do in order to expand the audience.

 

[BocoDragon]

He's not wrong, but in light of the early 2010s "consoles are dead because everyone casual plays on tablets" wisdom, I don't blame them for focusing on core gamers. Actually it's been quite an accomplishment that they made a core gamer-favorite console in the modern era. Proved a lot of wisdom about the console market dying as wrong.

I love bringing in more casual audiences, but let's also remember that Wii/Kinect/Move fatigue had set in just before this current gen. It was recently a brilliant move to say "screw it, let's just make real gamers' games that play with a standard controller."

Maybe they should branch out again, but doubling down on gamers was a very wise move a few years ago.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

I'd say the fact they have sold more than 60 million hardware units combined so far suggests targeting the hardcore gamer isn't a bad strategic decision.

And the success of Crash also proves that that core gamer hasn't gone anywhere.

 

[oti]

It's also interesting to see that outside of the very casual friendly nature of the Switch hardware (it's a tablet with some buttons in the end) Nintendo is also focusing on the hardcore gamer. 1 2 Switch is the odd duck out in the very core focused software line-up.

 

[alpha69]

Core gamers will stick with you as long as you give them good games
Casuals are fleeting, they come and go easily and follow whatever is mainstream/popular.

Core should always be the focus for consoles as they are the foundation of a userbase, without them you won't even get the attention of Casuals. The original XBox One vision and PS4's smash success already proves this.

 

[_Ryo_]

Sony Playstation has VR, and just announced Play Link. They're very diversified as to which type of gamers they cater to.

Microsoft Xbox isnt really doing anything like that on a huge level, I dont think. They have hololens/ar but that is really just an very early experiment right now that really isnt catering to gamers much at all.

 

[Trup1aya]

Sony is investing in that future with VR and stuff like Play Link. Might take a while for it to reach a wider audience but there is potential growth.

MS...well....they have Minecraft now.

Otherwise....well the Switch is a hybrid system . so they wont be able to have the same type of appeal with traditional consoles, not that much they can do about it.

Software wise i would say that all 3 have content in work that appeals to a wider audience of gamers, so thats a no Phil.

You implying that MS isn't investing in future looking tech like VR?

 

[Shin]

Not sure about MS as I don't follow their movement as close nor ever had a Xbox.
In PlayStation's case they seem to go after the casual later on in a console's lifecycle, which is what they are doing once again.
MS/PS caters a different audience compared to Nintendo, initially at least then expand later on.
Nintendo's IP's also allow them to focus on more casual/family friendly gamers and/or games.
Different philosophies about how they go and/or see things, nothing wrong with either approach as they both are pulling in more players.

If we're talking about trying out new concepts then yes Nintendo is most likely on the forefront of that IMO.

 

[xenorevlis]

Phil, here is a little something you may have missed...

Next, I'm excited to give you a first look at a super fun new game coming from Japan Studios. This game is designed for everyone, from young to young at heart, and from casual to core gamers.

YEAH BABY

 

[oti]

Not sure about MS as I don't follow their movement as close nor ever had a Xbox.
In PlayStation's case they seem to go after the casual later on in a console's lifecycle, which is what they are doing once again.
MS/PS caters a different audience compared to Nintendo, initially at least then expand later on.
Nintendo's IP's also allow them to focus on more casual/family friendly gamers and/or games.
Different philosophies about how they go and/or see things, nothing wrong with either approach as they both are pulling in more players.

MS is going full-on for the core audience.

$500 console.
"True 4K" communication.
Original Xbox BC.
Services like EA Access and Game Pass.
Xbox Elite Controller.
Custom controllers colours design lab.
Play Anywhere with Win10.
4K Blu-ray drives.

Those are all core-focused initiatives.

 

[BocoDragon]

MS is going full-on for the core audience.

$500 console.
"True 4K" communication.
Original Xbox BC.
Services like EA Access and Game Pass.
Xbox Elite Controller.
Custom controllers colours design lab.
Play Anywhere with Win10.
4K Blu-ray drives.

Those are all core-focused initiatives.

Sure, after Xbox One's introduction was botched and they pivoted to core gamer focus.

 

[Kouriozan]

Reminds me of that articles about how none of the big 3 make sufficient effort to introduce new kids to the gaming market (and in the end they will all stay on mobile)

This is something really interesting and I'd really like to see some market research with that possibility.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

I think Sony with an attractive price point and the games where you use your phone might pull in a lot of so called "casual gamers".

Singstar(a good one this time) and Buzz! using your phone would be awesome.

But you still need hardware to play that. Nobody is going to buy a PS4 to say "oh hey I can use my phone here"

 

[singhr1]

MS whole pitch during E3 was based around this statement.

Xbox empowers game developers large and small to create different types of games for every type of player. Not only do we have the biggest cross-platform blockbusters on our platform, we've also scoured the world to bring our fans unique content from creative artists that capture the imagination.

Guess Phil Harrison didn't believe Phil Spencer when he said it.

 

[Guymelef]

MS whole pitch during E3 was based around this statement.



Guess Phil Harrison didn't believe Phil Spencer when he said it.

Can you blame somebody for not believe in Phil Spencer?

 

[oti]

Sure, after Xbox One's introduction was botched and they pivoted to core gamer focus.

Yep. I think it's important for any video game brand in this market to have a good standing with the core audience before trying to branch out. In general both Sony and MS are banking on Nintendo bringing new people into the market (a few years ago with the Wii, now they're hoping to convince Mobile gamers to upgrade). That's the strength Nintendo IP has on kids. Sony IP could do the same with older people who watched the new Spider-Man movie or want something cinematic like Uncharted. MS is going with the tech angle, since their IP isn't really capable of doing this at all. Especially with Halo's and Gears' fading popularity.

 

[singhr1]

Can you blame somebody for not believe in Phil Spencer?

From the number of the Phil Spencer fanatics online? Yes?

From Spencer's track record being relatively spotty? No.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Other than 1-2 Switch, what other Switch game has casual appeal? It's been proven that the casuals will play the core gamer games if you properly appeal to them without sacrificing what the core wants.

 

[Renekton]

...and ?

Supposedly the same casual people went into mobile devices and never returned, hence the chorus of shareholder demands for Iwata to wholeheartedly put Nintendo IPs on iOS

 

[Kyougar]

Yeah, Microsoft chrashed and burned with trying to cater to the casual audience.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

MS whole pitch during E3 was based around this statement.



Guess Phil Harrison didn't believe Phil Spencer when he said it.

If you include indies it is technically true.

 

[Shin]

MS is going full-on for the core audience.

$500 console.
"True 4K" communication.
Original Xbox BC.
Services like EA Access and Game Pass.
Xbox Elite Controller.
Custom controllers colours design lab.
Play Anywhere with Win10.
4K Blu-ray drives.

Those are all core-focused initiatives.

A better example would be XB1S, Super Lucky's Tale and maybe Ori to an extent (though that game is rather deep).
In that sense they also are branching out to different audiences, be it price point or gaming catalog.
PS/MS also got VR/AR and the likes going for them, that's experimenting yet trying to expand the market by reaching new audiences.
So I slightly don't agree with Harrison's point of view as he's only looking at a combi home console but not the other things the others bring to the table or trying to.

 

[kyser73]

While I don't necessarily agree with his conclusion, this does echo the comments I made on another thread regarding the differential between units sold and the actual customer base for home consoles and handhelds, in that unit sales don't tell the whole story of the total audience base for developers to sell to.

Sony at face value have succeeded in creating a sustainable product audience of at least 80m (this number makes some assumptions about replacement rate, dual purchase, gifting and so on). This is obviously composed of core, core-casual (or however you describe someone like me for whom gaming is a hobby that I have to fit in the rest of my life) and casuals/gen-skipping returners who will pick a console up for maybe one or two titles 3-5 years after the platform launch.

How to grow this number sustainably? By this I mean - add customers who will buy both software and will also stay with the platform and migrate to the newer model with a similar purchasing period post-next gen launch?

 

[Mass_Pincup]

The market is not trying to grow the market, they want to keep them engaged.

Far more lucrative and way less risky.

 

[oti]

A better example would be XB1S, Super Lucky's Tale and maybe Ori to an extent (though that game is rather deep).
In that sense they also are branching out to different audiences, be it price point or gaming catalog.
PS/MS also got VR/AR and the likes going for them, that's experimenting yet trying to expand the market by reaching new audiences.
So I slightly don't agree with Harrison's point of view as he's only looking at a combi home console but not the other things the others bring to the table or trying to.

What Harrison is looking for is something completely new hardware wise. Mind-controlling video games or something. He's not talking about Super Lucky's Tale or Ori.

 

[KratosEnergyDrink]

Ps4 probably gonna have 100+ million userbase at the end of the gen more than ps3 so thats a nice growth for sony

But Sonys growth is MS lost. Both companies share the same userbase and do nothing to broaden their market share. Its just boring.

Nintendo is always trying something new with hardware and games, even if its upset some of the old audience.

 

[Shin]

What Harrison is looking for is something completely new hardware wise. Mind-controlling video games or something. He's not talking about Super Lucky's Tale or Ori.

And I pointed said hardware(s) out in my post.
There's also the PlayLink concept, so my opinion stands.
Plus there's ForwardWorks PlayStation got going for them, they are going after everything they can.
Just not in a all-in-one type of system (if that's what he'd rather see).

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

Risk alienating the 150+ million market for a theoretical audience? lol

The Wii crowd is gone and they aren't coming back.

 

[Rymuth]

Phil Harrison also claimed single player games are dead, so I wouldn't put too much stock on what he says...

BUT-if I was forced to give an answer- I'd say shipping 78million (by this year's end) shows Sony knows what it's doing

 

[120v]

i'm all for expanding the market but i don't think anybody but core gamers will ever see the need to buy a console at this point. no console has any experience or feature on offer that can't be provided from a tablet, streaming stick, ect other than high end gaming experiences. even Switch is going to mostly wind up in hands of the standard 19-35 demo rather than soccer moms or grandmas or whoever qualifies as 'casual'

it's not happening

 

[oti]

And I pointed said hardware(s) out in my post.
There's also the PlayLink concept, so my opinion stands.

I didn't say anything about your opinion. Just that Harrison to me seems like the kind of guy who wants radical new ideas. VR/AR is so far out and to this point even more core-focused than consoles. Sure, those things can expand the audience too. With that though in mind MS could've added full PC capabilities to Xbox X. That would also expand the audience.

Risk alienating the 150+ million market for a theoretical audience? lol

The Wii crowd is gone and they aren't coming back.

Pretty sure they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes they did with Kinect. At least I'd hope so.

 

[Shin]

Sure, those things can expand the audience too. With that though in mind MS could've added full PC capabilities to Xbox X. That would also expand the audience.

For sure, the concept of gaming on the go is rather great I think and it does bring gaming to new heights.
Not a bad thing moving forward, but the technology just isn't there yet (at least battery wouldn't hold up ).
MS could expand on the Play Anywhere idea, if not XBOX then they could very well go that route with the follow up.
I think it's one of their strengths also which the others don't have and/or reluctant to make happen.

 

[kyser73]

Phil Harrison also claimed single player games are dead, so I wouldn't put too much stock on what he says...

BUT-if I was forced to give an answer- I'd say shipping 78million (by this year's end) shows Sony knows what it's doing

If Sony hit 100m with the PS4 they're just repeating the same level of sales they achieved 20 years ago with the PS1. They clearly know what they're doing but can they grow that same group any further?

 

[AmFreak]

How was that irrelevant ? Unless you are implying that everyone who played on Wii never upgrades or switched to other gaming systems.
DS/Wii were essential systems and brought in many new audiences...many of them continued playing on other consoles/phones after Wii was done.

This is about consoles and a big part of the Wii audience stopped after the Wii. This is the first console gen with a shrinking market instead of an expanding one.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

If Sony hit 100m with the PS4 they're just repeating the same level of sales they achieved 20 years ago with the PS1. They clearly know what they're doing but can they grow that same group any further?

It's not really the same because users are doing alot more than just buying physical games. They're buying PS+, PSvue, watching netflix and other multi media stuff, they're buying microtransactions, DLC, and indie games. This is why Xbox is making good money right now despite getting thumped by Playstation.

Granted games are alot more expensive to make, but there's no reason for Sony to scoff at the amount of money they're making right now with Playstation. Smart Phones have been out for over 10 years now, consoles aren't going away.