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Phil Spencer: "I know we have to take risks [after Scalebound cancellation],"

I'm interested in this part of the quote. Unless there was a planed major delay, Scalebound should had been very close to completion already, considering it was coming out this year. Was the game really shit to the point that flushing the project that they had been investing for years down the toilet was the better choice than pushing it out the gate?

Yeah, I picture it like this:

--Release a mediocre game, even after the delays
-Xbox brand gets some stink, but the developer takes most of the reputation hit
-Recoup some of the money

--Cancel a nearly-complete game
-Xbox brand gets some stink, Microsoft themselves get most of the bad attention
-Make no money whatsoever

Game must have either been really behind schedule or really bad for this to make sense, and I doubt either of those are true.
 

messiaen

Member
Exactly, companies are NOT all the same, far from it.
I said within. Meaning one shitty producer working at Sony doesn't mean all are bad. And one good person working at 20th century Fox doesn't mean all are great.

My point was all the companies have good and bad. It depends who you personally work with, not which company you have.
 

Sydle

Member
I like Phil overall but I feel like this continues to happen. Our very own MH Williams put up an article going over all the things announced in 2014 that have all but been axed: http://www.usgamer.net/articles/revisiting-xbox-e3-2014-remembering-the-dead

I almost forgot how much.

Every time this happens, fans start questioning him and the platform's direction, Phil gives the standard reply "we're committed to games and first party", and then you get the "Ok, phew, thanks Phil!" though that seems to be waning now.

Thing is, you need to allow your teams to branch out and take risks creatively. That's how you grow a brand and ecosystem and new fan bases. This has nothing to do with console war bs, but Sony does this and it's evident. One of their flagship studios known for first person shooters was allowed to take 5 years to build a post apocalyptic open world RPG with a female lead and robot dinosaurs. Another studio (Sony Santa Monica), even though its initial new IP failed, was allowed to radically revamp one of their biggest and most beloved franchises (God of War). Both huge risks. Sucker Punch is on a new IP. Bend is on a new IP, etc. Naughty Dog took time to develop a new IP that's arguably their biggest yet. That's how these become successful franchises.

Besides Rare, which is basically their new IP testbed though relegated to service driven games, Turn 10 works on Forza, Black Tusk was transformed into a Gears factory, 343 is relegated to Halo...it's just tired at this point. To me anyway, even though I still enjoy those series a lot.

Is he beholden to growing Live users and Windows Store revenue in order to get funding? It kind of seems that way given their focus on MP, MAU, and reporting directly to the EVP of Windows.

If that's the case then online service games kind of seems like his only option, but I suppose they could reboot Halo and Gears.
 

spannicus

Member
That is the big difference. MS tries to "buy" a new IP through exclusive deals like those signed with Platinum, Insomniac, etc... Their own internal studios are not allowed to do anything else but Halo, Gears, and Forza for the most part. Now, Rare was given the opportunity to do something different, but they are the exception.


I truly hope it pays off for Rare...
Let them buy all the exclusive they want. More games for me. Watch yo mouth!
 

Papacheeks

Banned
These were the first ones on the shelf, Halo and Gears are at the back of the wardrobe.

Y4O7UHWh.jpg


So many great exclusives.

Eternal Sonata, and Resonance of fate were both on PS3. I think Eternal Sonata came later though right?
 

robotrock

Banned
These were the first ones on the shelf, Halo and Gears are at the back of the wardrobe.

Y4O7UHWh.jpg


So many great exclusives.

Resonance of Fate is on PS3 as well but yeah that picture is awesome

man, such a disappointing lineup this gen from them coming off of the 360
 

David___

Banned
Im gonna try to be Optimistic and say Microsoft has some new IPs on the way. Hope I'm right.


At this point announcing stuff doesn't matter. They need to show people they can actually follow through with the announcement by actually releasing the game.
 
I said within. Meaning one shitty producer working at Sony doesn't mean all are bad. And one good person working at 20th century Fox doesn't mean all are great.

A companies goals, environment,culture how they do things can be drastically different period, they are not "All the same" at all. One environment can be more conducive for creative aspects then others. Not sure what your point is with the "One person working at fox doesn;t mean they are all great".

All companies have good and bad sure, still doesn;t mean they are "All the same". Again work environments differ drastically in culture.
 
Hasn't he been saying that for years?

"I know we have to take risks," he said. "I realize right now probably sounds hollow but I agree."

In another tweet, Spencer said the cancellation of Scalebound won't stop Microsoft from signing third-party games in the future. At the same time, you can expect Microsoft to of course continue to invest in projects from its own studios as well.

"I won't abandon signing independent studio projects but I agree first-party internal studios are critical," he said.

Spencer also personally apologized for cancelling Scalebound. "It hurt me as well and to the community I apologize. I want everything we start to turn out great, to take risks, create diversity," he said.

i'm sure phil's a cool guy. but it's extremely obvious, at this point, that he speaks for himself, & not for ms. he never says 'we'...
 
That is the big difference. MS tries to "buy" a new IP through exclusive deals like those signed with Platinum, Insomniac, etc... Their own internal studios are not allowed to do anything else but Halo, Gears, and Forza for the most part. Now, Rare was given the opportunity to do something different, but they are the exception.


I truly hope it pays off for Rare...

Dude you've been "concerned" about Rare a lot. They're fine, I'm sure. They had plenty of work before Sea of Thieves and they'll have plenty after. It seems to me that Rare has been stable and paid for over 20 years. How many studios can claim that?
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
Have to agree. Having worked with MS in my current job, I told them politely to pound sand when they attempted to hire me. I've seen enough about how they work.

Yeah. This is a suspicious post. Would love if a mod would try and "vet" you. Bush is around but maybe Stump?
 

mrg6290

Member
Yup, you got us, were just all a bunch of shit posters talking about a game division many of use to love and how it's been slowly devolving into something we dont like. And yes your right talking about a game getting cancelled by a publisher who cancelled other games recently and having a studio with a big legacy go under and cancelling a game revival/sequel and disbanding a studio that people were excited for is just all of us shit posting.

We can close the thread now guys we seem to have done nothing but damage the internet with no good discussion.

We all good fam.

Ha, wow. I never said any of those things. Discussions around this topic are not shit posts. You can be sad, mad, pissed the hell off, etc. This thread and many others are the perfect place to be mad and to have that discussion. I (and the post I replied to) were pointing out how people tend to derail other discussions with pile on posts. Go look at YouTube comments mentioned by the post I replied to. Look at posts in many threads that are tenuously connected to Microsoft and people are piling on about SB. Either every poster is a "scorned lover" of Microsoft and is acting immaturely by derailing other discussions (which I don't believe), or its folks just wanting to pile on.

So if you missed the part where I was talking about derailing unrelated discussions, we are cool. If you think its appropriate to go on about SB and cancellations on every piece of news related to Microsoft or Xbox, you're being immature.

We all good fam.
 

CCIE

Banned
Not a dude... and yes, I am concerned for Rare. They will probably be the Fall guy for Spencer if Sea of Thieves tanks. Or have you NOT been reading the boards the last few days?
 
Dude you've been "concerned" about Rare a lot. They're fine, I'm sure. They had plenty of work before Sea of Thieves and they'll have plenty after. It seems to me that Rare has been stable and paid for over 20 years. How many studios can claim that?

Lionhead claimed that..1996 - 2016.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
I don't know exactly but you could probably bet your ass the budget's tightening.

I kind of want to direct this via twitter to Phil himself but I dont have twitter so I'll ask you hypothetical:

If The Coalition or i343 came to Phil and pitched him an idea for a awesome new IP would phil have the power to green light it? Or does that come from higher ups? Because someone posted a tweet that had him saying xbox division is all on him decision wise?

Or is it contract wise neither of those studios can create anything new?
 
Dont understand why so many are defending spencer and blaming it on higher ups. He is the head of Xbox! It is his job to explain why canceling games and not investing in new IP´s is a bad decision to the higher-ups if that is what he actually believes.

Have you followed Star Citizen or its thread?


It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Most video games are a nightmare to make. Most large scale software projects involving hundreds of people are a nightmare to make. Almost no games end up being like the creator envisions them. There is never enough time or money. You promise more than you can chew to make publishers bite.
You go to publishers, and you make a pitch. As a lead you promise things you cannot realistically deliver.


If they bite (Microsoft) you get millions and you begin working on the game. Then eventually, you've not hit your milestones and now you're behind schedule. You go to microsoft and the investors and tell them "we're out of money- Please give us more". The publishers become annoyed because the agreement was they'd finish by this date and with this amount of money. Developers explain to the publisher that things went wrong (it always goes wrong) - Systems needs to be remade, focus groups gave them insights into things that werent working, major problems with tech and engine forces them to seek other solutions.

As a publisher or investor you're in a pickle. If you pull the plug now, your money is lost. the game is dead, and you will never recoup your investment. Or. Or you can give the developers more money. Okay- 5 more million for you guys- six more months.
And then six months later, you come back and they're not done. Ahh, things where not working in the internal alpha. They could release it, but it would mean they expect much lower sales prejections and perhaps a meta critic score of 55-65.

What do you do? Now you got a sort of working game product you can release. Do you keep going at it? The developers show the latest builds, they show their new targets and how they plan to spend the remaining money. Okay, - You give the developers 5 more months and more money. You come back 5 months later, and it's still not done.
At this point this is where many publishers say "enough" and either force them release it (a half finished or finished buggy game) or shut it down.
Game development is a fight to hit milestones. When you operate a studio and you have a staff of 300-500 people working internally, with marketing, branding and all the various staff members, you're easily spending 100K a month just to keep the studio operational. That's not even in full development cycle. You're burning through massive amounts of money and you take major risks.

On the other line you have the gamers. Sick and tired of publishers always betting on the safe games. Another World War 2 shooter? uck. Another Military Shooter? Yuck. Another Hero shooter? Fuck.
It's not that publishers like EA or Microsoft or Ubisoft are out to fuck anybody over. It's that they are trying to make back their money.
I respect Spencer for betting on Phantom Dust. That was a bold and insightful game that deserved another chance. And going by this games development studio, and the fact it was transfered to another team makes me think that Spencer had a personal interest in seeing it realized. I don't think Scalebound was different. Or ReCore. How cool would it have been had ReCore been a modern Ico? It could have been. That game has so much promise, but that's another situation where the game just wouldn't finish. Microsoft had to say "enough" and force them to release it.




Why is this?

It's because games are not coming together until near the end. You cannot tell if it's a fun game you got until all the gameplay systems are in place. And because they need to be a part of a whole, you're designing and building in the blind for years. So you have to go deep into the rabbit hole and hope for the best.
Software development is beaucratic. You got so many people that the leads don't even have an idea what is really going on elsewhere. If you're a lead on programming, or animation or sound or illustration, you're just ahead of your team. You don't know how the other pieces of the puzzle is coming together. Sometimes you have a strong team and a strong game, but one team is fucked. Either by poor management or because it suffers on the burdens of other teams. Maybe the programming team is understaffed or the choice of engine was problematic in the beginning. Now because a early lead developer picked a terrible engine to work in, you're spending 50% of your staff on programmers because the engine choice was fucked. Now you don't got enough budget for other teams- Now what the fuck do you do?
Are you supposed to go to Microsoft and EA with that fucking story? Yeah, me as the lead dev and the lead programmer made a mistake, and now we need a lot more money for the next 3 years to finish this game.

Decisions like that in the beginning is why, many large famous developers move to indie games. It's less stressful, it's smaller manageable budgets, you can have your finger in every area of development, you can control it, lesser people means less risk and less timewaste by the sheer amount of people, meetings and builds that have to be moved. You cannot throw more staff and money after this and expect games to become good. It just doesn't work that way.
So what did Spencer do wrong here? I don't understand how he is at fault. It's a stroke of bad luck that these projects have folded. It has left wide gaps in the Xbox strategy for 2017. But it could not have been forseen.

Sony during the PS3 days is a good example of how they had a massive slate of games that ended up being terrible terrible. Games like Lair and Haze ended up being unfinished messes. They weren't coming together- But that was also not the fault of Sony. Choosing which projects to back is a 20/20 hindsight.
 
Unfortunately for me as an Xbox fan I've been a little left in the dark as a singleplayer game lover. I don't want weird online co-op experiences like Sea of thieves, I don't want another Halo or Gears of War game where the multiplayer is treated as some esports arena blowfest rife with item chest microtransactions. I want more stuff like Mass Effect and other titles that came out early in the 360's lifespan.

I have no interest in sony games so I'm depending on Microsoft to put some bare minimum effort into new franchise titles instead of retreading multiplayer and co-op experiences. I don't care if they're AA or middle-budget titles, just give us something that's not as bland as Quantum Break and Crackdown.
 

Teletraan1

Banned
Taking risks now means stop continuing great franchises???

I think they need to have alternate games that these studios can work on in between churning out the same IP over and over. I get that people want sequels but fatigue seems to set in after a while. The sentiment on this board seems to agree with that for Halo/Gears/Forza, I assume sales too. Maybe take a break from those games and do something different or revive some of those older IPs. Project Gotham Racing or Rallisport Challenge would be cool as a palate cleanser.
 

CCIE

Banned
This girl is out of this thread... I'm not giving you any confidential information. Sorry that people question Spencer. It certainly isn't just me.
 

Harmen

Member
Yeah, pretty meaningless PR words. Expected, but still. I judge of basis of actions and results and thus far MS seems to be straying away from diversity and risk rather than Phil's comments here.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Ha, wow. I never said any of those things. Discussions around this topic are not shit posts. You can be sad, mad, pissed the hell off, etc. This thread and many others are the perfect place to be mad and to have that discussion. I (and the post I replied to) were pointing out how people tend to derail other discussions with pile on posts. Go look at YouTube comments mentioned by the post I replied to. Look at posts in many threads that are tenuously connected to Microsoft and people are piling on about SB. Either every poster is a "scorned lover" of Microsoft and is acting immaturely by derailing other discussions (which I don't believe), or its folks just wanting to pile on.

So if you missed the part where I was talking about derailing unrelated discussions, we are cool. If you think its appropriate to go on about SB and cancellations on every piece of news related to Microsoft or Xbox, you're being immature.

We all good fam.

All right my bad, we good fam.
 
Unfortunately for me as an Xbox fan I've been a little left in the dark as a singleplayer game lover. I don't want weird online co-op experiences like Sea of thieves, I don't want another Halo or Gears of War game where the multiplayer is treated as some esports arena blowfest rife with item chest microtransactions. I want more stuff like Mass Effect and other titles that came out early in the 360's lifespan.

I have no interest in sony games so I'm depending on Microsoft to put some bare minimum effort into new franchise titles instead of retreading multiplayer and co-op experiences. I don't care if they're AA or middle-budget titles, just give us something that's not as bland as Quantum Break and Crackdown.

I can't get my head around this...You like SP games, feel left out in the cold by MS, but don;t like Sony games? Why? Did you try all of them and like non of them? Sony has a lot of great SP focused games and more coming. Just for my curiosity, I find it hard to understand.
 

Seiryoden

Member
Eternal Sonata, and Resonance of fate were both on PS3. I think Eternal Sonata came later though right?

Resonance of Fate is on PS3 as well but yeah that picture is awesome

man, such a disappointing lineup this gen from them coming off of the 360

Yep, and Vesperia had a Japan only PS3 release/revision which was, by my lights, superior to the original.

Edit: Sorry, I did not mean to assert that all the games pictured were X360 exclusive, rather that those games I yanked off the shelf, some of which are platform exclusive, speak to a confident and diverse console environment. Obviously, several are wonderful games that exist solely because MS chose to dip their toes into the console market.

Microsoft gave me Lost Odyssey. I will not forget that.
 

Bsigg12

Member
I kind of want to direct this via twitter to Phil himself but I dont have twitter so I'll ask you hypothetical:

If The Coalition or i343 came to Phil and pitched him an idea for a awesome new IP would phil have the power to green light it? Or does that come from higher ups? Because someone posted a tweet that had him saying xbox division is all on him decision wise?

Or is it contract wise neither of those studios can create anything new?

He would be able to greenlight it. There's no one higher than him in Xbox and he ultimately decides where the money gets invested.
 

Kastrioti

Persecution Complex
I want to know why it was cancelled. I wouldn't be surprised if Platinum Games were missing deadlines but if Microsoft wanted some tacked on multiplayer that would be a huge issue with development and something that isn't necessary for a PG story focused game.
 
I don't know exactly but you could probably bet your ass the budget's tightening.
Yeah, that's what I've heard from people "in the know" that I trust on Twitter and other forums.

At risk of sounding like a Phil Spencer apologist, I believe it. It was easy enough for me to write off Fable Legends cancellation as just a troubled development, but now again with Scalebound... Something's definitely up.
 
Lionhead claimed that..1996 - 2016.

Exactly. That's a great run for a developer. Has Molyneux done much since? I do think MS should have changed up leadership and scope at that studio. Phil Harrison should have done better than Fable Legends. They dropped the ball there.
 

messiaen

Member
A companies goals, environment,culture how they do things can be drastically different period, they are not "All the same" at all. One environment can be more conducive for creative aspects then others. Not sure what your point is with the "One person working at fox doesn;t mean they are all great".

All companies have good and bad sure, still doesn;t mean they are "All the same". Again work environments differ drastically in culture.
Maybe based on your experience, but again this is about perspective.

For smaller companies sure, but I thought we were discussing the big ones, which in film and music are more or less the same, in my experience. They may have different mission statements but the goal is nearly identical in their big picture.

My point is, it's not all that accurate to say that because Sony have been in the entertainment industry longer, they know how to deal with creative types any better or worse than another. I've met with people that have been in film for 40+ years that are impossible to deal with and others that may as well still be in diapers that are wonderful, because again the industry isn't made up of companies, it's made up of people.
 
Yeah, I picture it like this:

--Release a mediocre game, even after the delays
-Xbox brand gets some stink, but the developer takes most of the reputation hit
-Recoup some of the money

--Cancel a nearly-complete game
-Xbox brand gets some stink, Microsoft themselves get most of the bad attention
-Make no money whatsoever

Game must have either been really behind schedule or really bad for this to make sense, and I doubt either of those are true.

Thinking that MS would cancel a game instead of attempting to get some money back is baffling to me . Just honestly can't see it myself
 
Maybe based on your experience, but again this is about perspective.

For smaller companies sure, but I thought we were discussing the big ones, which in film and music are more or less the same, in my experience. They may have different mission statements but the goal is nearly identical in their big picture.

My point is, it's not all that accurate to say that because Sony have been in the entertainment industry longer, they know how to deal with creative types any better or worse than another. I've met with people that have been in film for 40+ years that are impossible to deal with and others that may as well still be in diapers that are wonderful, because again the industry isn't made up of companies, it's made up of people.

Your only proving my point.....Companies are made up of people and they are all different....
 

Wedzi

Banned
From my experience, there's little difference between businessmen that have worked in the industry for decades and ones that haven't. There is no super art friendly corporation. There are good and bad producers but that's it, really... And everyone has good and bad producers. No company is different from the other. This sentiment is really silly.

Now that's a silly sentiment.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
He would be able to greenlight it. There's no one higher than him in Xbox and he ultimately decides where the money gets invested.

Do Coalition and i343 have the ability to make a new IP or propose it? Or is it in their contract to only work on those specific IP's?
 
At this point I don't see Xbox taking any huge risks at all and playing it pretty safe . Goal with the Scorpio is to become a 3rd party box and going after 4k tv buyers that want the best console experience possible at least for a little while .
 

Shpeshal Nick

aka Collingwood
How would they be able to vet a potential hire if he never ended up working for them?

How exactly do you want them to vet a potential hire? Show personal email correspondence between Microsoft and themselves? Come on.

They don't vet the hire. They'd vet the info. Sources and such. I know when I had some 2nd hand "insider info" I took it to Bish first. He told me to hold onto it as it seems a risky thing to go with and very unlikely.

So I've never posted it.

I mean, how do you think they vet insiders? Take them at their word or something?
 
A Naruto game exclusive to Xbox? interesting.

There were 2 of them! And they were awesome!!

Beautiful beautiful games, used the show's OST so it was instantly familiar, had so much fun just jumping around the town collecting coins lol. Good memories from earlier in the gen for sure. Too bad Ubi never got to make any more.

I miss the 360 days, had so many cooler games back then. I look at my library and it's so varied. Xbox One has been very by the numbers.
 
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