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[Ratrat]

I'm sure every single person here saying it's BS has at some point in their lives forgotten something, where after realizing it, you wonder how in the fucking hell you managed to forget. The value of said forgotten thing really has no bearing to the horribly unfortunate timing of your brain skipping a beat.

Would you be as sympathetic if this was a nanny or teacher that did it to someone elses child? What if the child was yours?

Im not surprised no one is answering this.

 

[Vyer]

Every parent knows this isn't an accident.



These aren't the kinds of people who would buy this product.

How are these "accidents"??? I know that the parents are probably already punished for life but calling it an accident, letting your little kid in a car on a super hot day????

Could happen to anyone? Sorry but no.

This could happen anybody??? Yea if you're a fucking idiot.


I wouldn't leave a kid in the car alone under any circumstances wtf.

I used to feel this way. It's still rather unfathomable to me that something like that happens, to be honest. But...

This article

Reading this Pulitzer-winning article from the Washington Post made me a lot more sympathetic toward the parents in these cases.

and knowing someone personally who did something close to this (though thankfully not near as bad a situation) kind of opened my eyes a little bit. Or at the very least gave me a little empathy for someone who went through this (talking about actual accidents of course) than I had before.

In particular, the story of Lyn Balfour in that article is most gut wrenching:

In the end, Zwerling had one key decision to make. In criminal cases, jurors want to hear from the defendant. Zwerling liked and respected Balfour, but should he put her on the stand?

“Have you met her?” he asks.

Yes.

“Then you’ve seen that mental girdle she puts on, the protective armor against the world, how she closes up and becomes a soldier. It helps her survive, but it can seem off-putting if you’re someone who wants to see how crushed she is.” Zwerling decided not to risk it.

“I wound up putting her on the stand in a different way,” he says, “so people could see the real Lyn -- vulnerable, with no guile, no posturing.”

What Zwerling did was play two audiotapes for the jury. One was Balfour’s interrogation by police in the hospital about an hour after Bryce’s death; her answers are immeasurably sad, almost unintelligible, half sob, half whisper: “I killed my baby,” she says tremulously. “Oh, God, I’m so sorry.”

The second tape was a call to 911 made by a passerby, in those first few seconds after Balfour discovered the body and beseeched a stranger to summon help.

Zwerling swivels to his computer, punches up an audio file.

“Want to hear it?”

***

It is 60 feet to the end of the patio, then a stairwell with 11 steps down, then two steps across, then a second stairwell, 12 steps down, one more off the curb and then a 30-foot sprint to the car. Balfour estimates the whole thing took half a minute or less. She knew it was too late when, through the window, she saw Bryce’s limp hand, and then his face, unmarked but lifeless and shiny, Balfour says, “like a porcelain doll.”

It was seconds later that the passerby called 911.

***

The tape is unendurable. Mostly, you hear a woman’s voice, tense but precise, explaining to a police dispatcher what she is seeing. Initially, there’s nothing in the background. Then Balfour howls at the top of her lungs, “OH, MY GOD, NOOOO!”

Then, for a few seconds, nothing.

Then a deafening shriek: “NO, NO, PLEASE, NO!!!”

Three more seconds, then:

“PLEASE, GOD, NO, PLEASE!!!”

What is happening is that Balfour is administering CPR. At that moment, she recalls, she felt like two people occupying one body: Lyn, the crisply efficient certified combat lifesaver, and Lyn, the incompetent mother who would never again know happiness. Breathe, compress, breathe, compress. Each time that she came up for air, she lost it. Then, back to the patient.

it is an utterly heartbreaking article to read as a whole.

 

[ZeoVGM]

If they intentionally do it, sure they should be punished. People know by now that kids can die in hot cars very quickly. People don't choose to forget things, that isn't how a human brain works. It doesn't matter if it's a pen or a diamond ring, you can forget something if your focus isn't on that particular thing. The focus is on driving, then they're thinking about going into the store. If something doesn't prompt them to check the backseat, this is how it happens. The absolute worst thing in the world is for people to take the attitude that they're too good a parent or too smart for this to happen to them. People should be scared and worried that it can happen to them, because that's what'll make them check the backseat even if their mind wanders.

So yeah, absolutely no punishment. It's an accident.

One of the most insane things I've ever read.

 

[Monocle]

One of the most insane things I've ever read.

Then you haven't read about this phenomenon enough. Punishing an honest accident is insane, absent evidence that it was not in fact an accident.

Plus, losing your kid is one of the worst consequences imaginable, so...

 

[Mechazawa]

People, stop thinking you are above your biological functions, we are very imperfect meat machines with strange quirks. The sooner we accept this, the better we will be able to try and avoid crap like this from happening.

Nah, too easy to talk shit about grieving parents from a high horse.

 

[besada]

Why in the world would anyone think it's a good idea to leave an infant in a car alone?

How hard is it to bring the kid inside with you?

In the majority of cases, the parents have forgotten the child was in the car. They think they've already dropped them off, generally because of a routine change. You should really read the article linked above. It is tragic, but it seems clear it's a cognitive error that people of all walks of life make.

I suspect part of the problem is that the last big national case we saw like this turned out to be murder. We had this same sort of thread, with the same article being posted, but in that case, the guy had been looking up heat deaths on the internet prior and it turned out that he murdered the kid. So all of these cases should be rigorously investigated, no matter how much it bothers the parents, but the majority of them seem to be entirely a cognitive error where they forgot their child was with them.

 

[John Rabbit]

These are really making the headlines in AZ because last year we managed to have zero hot car deaths of children. It's so tragic.

Trust me, to all the people so "sure" that this isn't an accident, please read the linked articles. Also keep in mind, during the summer in Phoenix it's routine (common) behavior to spend as little time in your vehicle as humanly possible (i.e. - You exit the vehicle and get to your destination as quickly as you can).

 

[ZeoVGM]

Then you haven't read about this phenomenon enough. Punishing an honest accident is insane, absent evidence that it was not in fact an accident.

Except there would then be plenty of cases where you don't truly know if it's an accident or not. Because you can't get into the person's head.

I'm sure most times this happens, it is an accident. But there are also people who murder their children. And a jury needs to decide if there should be punishment or not.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Simple as that.

 

[H.Protagonist]

One of the most insane things I've ever read.

If you accidentally kill your child, you don't think that knowledge, that loss, that guilt isn't punishment enough? That lasts a lifetime. They'll never forgive themselves. I'm not sure how jail time is supposed to make a difference here. Is it for the public's benefit that you want that included?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

Reading this Pulitzer-winning article from the Washington Post made me a lot more sympathetic toward the parents in these cases.

Yup. We've been thru this in the past. Most people who do this are not doing it intentionally. I remember talking with a colleague who only was spared because he left his kid in the car in an underground garage.

 

[ZeoVGM]

If you accidentally kill your child, you don't think that knowledge, that loss, that guilt isn't punishment enough? That lasts a lifetime. They'll never forgive themselves. I'm not sure how jail time is supposed to make a difference here. Is it for the public's benefit that you want that included?

There are times when it's an amazing parent who made a legitimate mistake. There are times when it's a bad parent who was being irresponsible. There are times when it's purposeful. And that's up to a jury to decide.

Simply hand-waving the entire act of leaving a child in a car as an accident that should never be punished is crazy.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Negligence that leads to death is a crime. It isn't less of a crime because it's a parent who made a mistake.

 

[televator]

"You feel like it's something that could happen to anybody," she said.

As a long time AZ resident, I can tell everyone that it has been especially hot this summer. There were days past 120 degrees F. You can bake cookies in your car and fry eggs on the road. This is not an exaggeration. If this happens to your kid on your supervision it's because you are either criminally neglectful, criminally stupid, or both.

 

[HariKari]

I live in AZ and I don't even leave anything plastic in the car because it will melt and cause a mess. How the fuck do you forget your kid? You just have to be a moron or attempting murder.

 

[TheAbsolution]

There are times when it's an amazing parent who made a legitimate mistake. There are times when it's a bad parent who was being irresponsible. There are times when it's purposeful. And that's up to a jury to decide.

Simply hand-waving the entire act of leaving a child in a car as an accident that should never be punished is crazy.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Negligence that leads to death is a crime. It isn't less of a crime because it's a parent who made a mistake.

Absolutely, it should be investigated. But if it's simply a terrible mistake, it shouldn't be punished.

 

[Monocle]

Except there would then be plenty of cases where you don't truly know if it's an accident or not. Because you can't get into the person's head.

I'm sure most times this happens, it is an accident. But there are also people who murder their children. And a jury needs to decide if there should be punishment or not.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Simple as that.

A jury would have to take into account prior cases, in which a simple cognitive error usually turns out to be the root cause.

Killing a person by accident is a crime, but the jury for a case like the OP's would have to consider who is served by stacking legal consequences on top of the devastating loss that the parent inflicted on themselves.

I mean, is a parent who does this once likely to do it again? Will they ever not be tormented by excruciating guilt? Is the public safer if such a person is imprisoned?

 

[H.Protagonist]

There are times when it's an amazing parent who made a legitimate mistake. There are times when it's a bad parent who was being irresponsible. There are times when it's purposeful. And that's up to a jury to decide.

Simply hand-waving the entire act of leaving a child in a car as an accident that should never be punished is crazy.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Negligence that leads to death is a crime. It isn't less of a crime because it's a parent who made a mistake.

I don't think anyone is advocating hand-waiving all incidents of leaving a baby in a car that results in death. Even the poster you quoted stressed "if it was an accident." There's an investigation and a psych evaluation at the least, and if there's still some doubt, these cases move to the court to be decided. No one thinks they're all 100% legitimate mistakes. It's in those cases where the investigation and evaluation find the parent made a tragic mistake that's the nut here. You think they need a trial by jury to decide on further punishment here?

 

[mrkgoo]

Even if they intended to leave the child there, it could just be gross negligence, and not intend to kill the child.

Therefore accident.

Some people can just be oblivious to how hot a car can get.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Negligence that leads to death is a crime. It isn't less of a crime because it's a parent who made a mistake.

And we have police who investigate and prosecutors who determine if charges should be made...what's your point?

 

[AlexFlame116]

I wonder how the parents must feel about all this. Hopefully they can find closure quickly. The driver too. But maybe this will also serve as a lesson to everyone to be on the lookout. Just to be safe.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Forgotten Baby Syndrome

I hope people familiarize themselves with this before roasting the grieving parent any further.

You don't always have to show your ass, GAF.

 

[platakul]

tthe parent always says its an accident that they left them there

they leave them there on purpose because they don't want to deal with them inside of wherever they were going

maybe the kid was being extremely whiny and the parent's nerves were bent WHATEVEr doesn't matter. its always murder. I can't imagine the intense hell the child feels in their last moments

oh ywa phoenix area parent here and it is literally impossible to forget yoru child because house to destination you are worried about the heat vs your a/c and the comfort of your child.

e: forgotten baby syndrome is fucking horse shit in phoenix fucking arizona

 

[Media]

When I was in my first years of being a mom, if I had someone watch the kids while I went out, I would frequently, out of no where, have a mini panic attack because "Oh my God, where is the baby?!" My brain would totally forget the baby was at Grandma's, everything was fine, because my routine was always having them with me.

This is the opposite of that. It way we should better train people to pay extra attention during any variation in routine. It would help avoid accidents like this.

RIP little man, I feel so bad for the parents.

 

[UberTag]

Some people can just be oblivious to how hot a car can get.

In a lot of places I can believe that somewhat.
In Phoenix, Arizona? Not so much.

 

[ZeoVGM]

And we have police who investigate and prosecutors who determine if charges should be made...what's your point?

Being an accident should not be a guarantee that there is no punishment.

And you literally said "absolutely no punishment." That's my point.

 

[Vyer]

There are times when it's an amazing parent who made a legitimate mistake. There are times when it's a bad parent who was being irresponsible. There are times when it's purposeful. And that's up to a jury to decide.

Simply hand-waving the entire act of leaving a child in a car as an accident that should never be punished is crazy.

Accidentally killing a person is a crime. Negligence that leads to death is a crime. It isn't less of a crime because it's a parent who made a mistake.

There are lots of steps between an event and getting in front of a jury. That's what an investigation is, and the decisions police and prosecutors make all the time. That's not 'hand waving' anything away.

They often, rightfully, understand that someone who actually did this as part of just a horrendous mistake doesn't belong in jail. Personally I don't really see the point. I can't imagine that someone who did this isn't already punished with a kind of hell it would be hard to fathom.

 

[John Rabbit]

In a lot of places I can believe that somewhat.
In Phoenix, Arizona? Not so much.

Not everyone who lives here has lived here long enough to understand the real dangers of the heat. It's not like they hand out pamphlets every summer. People who've lived here for years routinely get stranded on hikes because of dehydration/lack of preparation/etc. I constantly see cars without tinted windows because the person moved another state where it's not as common. Additionally, most people don't sit in cars long enough to experience how miserable prolonged exposure to that kind of temperature can be.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

tthe parent always says its an accident that they left them there

they leave them there on purpose because they don't want to deal with them inside of wherever they were going

maybe the kid was being extremely whiny and the parent's nerves were bent WHATEVEr doesn't matter. its always murder. I can't imagine the intense hell the child feels in their last moments

oh ywa phoenix area parent here and it is literally impossible to forget yoru child because house to destination you are worried about the heat vs your a/c and the comfort of your child.

e: forgotten baby syndrome is fucking horse shit in phoenix fucking arizona

I guess we're going to continue to show our asses anyway. Fuck research, you know better.

 

[DJ88]

e: forgotten baby syndrome is fucking horse shit in phoenix fucking arizona

Want to back that claim up with something other than, "It's literally impossible cause I said so!"?

 

[platakul]

I guess we're going to continue to show our asses anyway. Fuck research, you know better.

Yep

 

[adamsappel]

Again, I think many parents will say there has been a moment on a car trip where they have irrationally thought they left their kid behind. It's the same thing as this, but it doesn't result in a trial or news story.

When I was in my first years of being a mom, if I had someone watch the kids while I went out, I would frequently, out of no where, have a mini panic attack because "Oh my God, where is the baby?!" My brain would totally forget the baby was at Grandma's, everything was fine, because my routine was always having them with me.

This is the opposite of that. It way we should better train people to pay extra attention during any variation in routine. It would help avoid accidents like this.

Another good example.

 

[Mailbox]

tthe parent always says its an accident that they left them there

they leave them there on purpose because they don't want to deal with them inside of wherever they were going

maybe the kid was being extremely whiny and the parent's nerves were bent WHATEVEr doesn't matter. its always murder. I can't imagine the intense hell the child feels in their last moments

oh ywa phoenix area parent here and it is literally impossible to forget yoru child because house to destination you are worried about the heat vs your a/c and the comfort of your child.

e: forgotten baby syndrome is fucking horse shit in phoenix fucking arizona

facts from your ass?

 

[Monocle]

Being an accident should not be a guarantee that there is no punishment.

And you literally said "absolutely no punishment." That's my point.

This is hair splitting. Once it's established that an infant's death was an accident, what in the world is the point of punishment? To make you feel like the world is just? To foster totally useless paranoia in every single parent of a young child?

tthe parent always says its an accident that they left them there

they leave them there on purpose because they don't want to deal with them inside of wherever they were going

maybe the kid was being extremely whiny and the parent's nerves were bent WHATEVEr doesn't matter. its always murder. I can't imagine the intense hell the child feels in their last moments

oh ywa phoenix area parent here and it is literally impossible to forget yoru child because house to destination you are worried about the heat vs your a/c and the comfort of your child.

e: forgotten baby syndrome is fucking horse shit in phoenix fucking arizona

Alert the scientists and researchers. Somehow they got it all wrong.

 

[platakul]

facts from your ass?

luv to defend child murderers

 

[Donos]

I have read about Forgotten Baby Syndrome and similar stuff, but that doesn't really completely free parents from any guilt imo.

 

[LostCaress]

There are three levels of this : People who leave the kid on purpose to die (this is what actually happened in the last thread), which is murder, people who consciously leave them while going shopping or something, which is criminal negligence and people who forget the kid is in the car. Punishing these parents does little as they already lost a child and the act is not conscious so I don't think further punishment can act as a deterrent for other cases.

 

[Mailbox]

luv to defend child murderers

maybe actually read the links in the thread instead of being a shitposting wise ass.

There are three levels of this : People who leave the kid on purpose to die (this is what actually happened in the last thread), which is murder, people who consciously leave them while going shopping or something, which is criminal negligence and people who forget the kid is in the car. Punishing these parents does little as they already lost a child and act is not conscious so I don't think further punishment can act as a deterrent for other cases.

this is a post i agree with. Hopefully this doesn't end up like last thread.

 

[Monocle]

luv to defend child murderers

What is this fuckery? Read the article.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

The only instance where I can PLAUSIBLY buy this as being an accident as opposed to negligence would be if you leave the AC running in the car and the AC shorts out due to some kind of defect. And even then you shouldn't leave your kid unattended for the amount of time it takes for them to BAKE to death.

N/m misunderstood.

The disconnect in this thread seems to be people thinking that parents are leaving kids in cars on purpose. That is not the case in many cases.

 

[ZeoVGM]

luv to defend child murderers

There's a better way to argue your point than this.

 

[Zen Aku]

This is generally an accident. Most people don't mean to leave their kids in a hot-ass car.

People just get used to years and years of a daily routine that doesn't involve an infant. When said infant arrives, they involuntarily follow a routine that doesn't account for a small child.

It's a fucking one year old. If one year passed and you still don't remember that you have a child that you're responsible for. You got some serious issue.

 

[ZeoVGM]

This is hair splitting. Once it's established that an infant's death was an accident, what in the world is the point of punishment? To make you feel like the world is just? To foster totally useless paranoia in every single parent of a young child?.

I think there are different levels of an "accident" though. That alone is not enough for me to be okay with letting the person off without punishment. It could be a legitimate accident but it's also seen from the investigation that the parent is incredibly negligent and irresponsible with their child in general.

What would your thoughts be in the case where yes, it's a clear accident, but the investigation shows a history of negligence with their child?

 

[ibyea]

It's a fucking one year old. If one year passed and you still don't remember that you have a child that you're responsible for. You got some serious issue.

Your meat machine in your head don't care. Once routine sets in and your motor cortex takes over, to your reptilian part of your brain, the baby might as well be an inanimate object.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

It's a fucking one year old. If one year passed and you still don't remember that you have a child that you're responsible for. You got some serious issue.

Yes it's a serious issue. Are you suggesting these people murdered their baby on purpose? It's a lapse in judgement. They happen all the time, and sometimes in the case of a human baby, because the human brain is a complicated son of a bitch. It doesn't happen to everyone (thankfully) but it can happen.

 

[Vyer]

I have read about Forgotten Baby Syndrome and similar stuff, but that doesn't really completely free parents from any guilt imo.

Those parents will probably never be free from guilt, I'd imagine. And it's probably a guilt that's much deeper than any jail time can erase.

 

[deo]

Why do some people breed?

 

[Monocle]

Why do some people breed?

Why don't some people read?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Why do some people breed?

Your post has me wondering the exact same thing.

 

[deo]

Why don't some people read?

? I did read the OP. Its blatant child neglect

 

[deo]

Your post has me wondering the exact same thing.

...jeez

 

[CampbellzSoup]

Anyone here who has kids just imagine your baby in that hot car....how could people let this happen after all the education we have now.

Poor poor baby