the windows store is notorious for failing to download properly, failing to uninstall game installs properly, leaving registry stubs and fucking up the OS. and also, locking the exe/ini so no modding or fixing resolution issues yourself. The Win Store games are fucking horrible man. Educate yourself.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Platform X (aka Sony) and their relationship with indies
- Thread starter onesvenus
- Start date
- Status
Papacheeks
Banned
I do. Using EA app when I already have a origin account is super Clumber. Like I can't install any EA title on gamepass without it on pc. As in you use another app to install the game through gamepass that runs like shit.
Pc version sucks.
ManaByte
Member
I’ve been using PC GamePass (as well as playing PlayAnywhere) games since Day 1 and never had a single issue.
Why do you care?Curious how whenever sony gets some positive momentum there is always a smear job article, usually involving indies, waiting in the wings.
LectureMaster
Member
Well, I guess you can't really blame the console manufacturer? It's not like indies not listed in the store. In fact, there are shit loads of cheesy 5 bucks shovelwares for trophy hunters.
I have bought most renowned indies on Playstation and really enjoyed them. And I am patiently waiting Hades to drop on PS5 in August as well.
I have bought most renowned indies on Playstation and really enjoyed them. And I am patiently waiting Hades to drop on PS5 in August as well.
Last edited:
thismeinteil
Member
How fast the green team wishes to forget. Went from mocking the indiestation 4 to loving indies when MS began showing many at their E3s to pad out their barren release schedule. Most notably in the last half of the previous gen.
Really, Sony has a history of nurturing smaller dev teams into giants of the industry. Housemarque is a recent example of that. Bluepoint is another. Thing is, though, your games have to be good.
Elbow Identity Shallow
Member
I don't know who the people are saying this but spending a bit of time looking into their games there are an absolute abundance of stuff on all of the Platform X online stores right now. There are fantastic indie games but unfortunately the vast majority of the types of games those studios are talking about just don't have a lot of value to anybody but the people making and publishing.
It's a shame but it's changed since the last generation and changed far more since the 360 and PS3 days when indie games started appearing in large numbers on the consoles. Their games really do seem to be the sort of games that people complain about when they've been squeezed in as Gold or Plus games.
Looking right now there are loads of indie games for sale on these systems and some of them have discounts of 70% or so and are only 90p or less.
I'm sure all of the people who run these online stores would be happy to support them but it's a two way relationship so you really need to be willing the help them too.
You can't just walk into Hamleys Toy Store with a carrier bag full of homemade knitted dolls but then be surprised that they're not willing to give you premium shelf space in the front window over Christmas when there are high profile, in demand, high value items that are far better suited to that position. Earn the right to be there, make them feel that they can't do without you being there.
Not related to this thread but I've just seen that Anthem has a 96% discount and is on sale for £2.39. What the hell, that was supposed to be some sort of massive, multi year money earner for EA. That's terrible.
It's a shame but it's changed since the last generation and changed far more since the 360 and PS3 days when indie games started appearing in large numbers on the consoles. Their games really do seem to be the sort of games that people complain about when they've been squeezed in as Gold or Plus games.
Looking right now there are loads of indie games for sale on these systems and some of them have discounts of 70% or so and are only 90p or less.
I'm sure all of the people who run these online stores would be happy to support them but it's a two way relationship so you really need to be willing the help them too.
You can't just walk into Hamleys Toy Store with a carrier bag full of homemade knitted dolls but then be surprised that they're not willing to give you premium shelf space in the front window over Christmas when there are high profile, in demand, high value items that are far better suited to that position. Earn the right to be there, make them feel that they can't do without you being there.
Not related to this thread but I've just seen that Anthem has a 96% discount and is on sale for £2.39. What the hell, that was supposed to be some sort of massive, multi year money earner for EA. That's terrible.
Last edited:
GhostOfTsu
Banned
What a garbage post full of misinformation.
Right at the beginning you start with Control Ultimate and FF7 remake when they both have nothing to do with Sony. That's all on 505 Games and Square Enix. The upgrade path for Control is the same on Steam, Xbox and every platform. Sony is not the publisher of their games.
And then the we believe in generations quote again lol what a joke.
I said windows because thats what xbox uses.
Yes, because Sony is a robot and Platform X is captcha. If there was going to be retaliation (I assume you mean a boycot) there would be retaliation anyway. These fuckers just don't want to be legally bound to libel with what crap they say. Especially those with partnerships with competing platforms.
I see people talking about biggest games. if the game is big or good quality, it will come to playstation. People talking about the biggest game in the world being indie, (do they mean pre purchase minecraft?) it's on Playstation. Rocket league? Launched on Playstation. Binding of isaac on PS, hotline miami, on PS, Superhot, on PS. Pretty much every well known indie game is on PS. The issue isn't that big indie games won't be able to come to PS. The guys issue is that the little unknown games he creates do not get enough exposure on PS.
Last edited:
Fair comment, my appologies. I would think you've been lucky, given some of the horror stories out there.
Does he really expect Sony to give his company special treatment and free advertising even though they have thousands of indie titles getting released on their platform every year?
It seems that he's not even an indie dev; he's working at a publisher that publishes indie games. Like seriously? He's literally trying to pass all the work and expenses to the platform holder instead of doing HIS GOD DAMN JOB as a publisher.
Also, that virtue signaling in the last tweet made me chuckle. He had to slide that in, huh?
It seems that he's not even an indie dev; he's working at a publisher that publishes indie games. Like seriously? He's literally trying to pass all the work and expenses to the platform holder instead of doing HIS GOD DAMN JOB as a publisher.
Also, that virtue signaling in the last tweet made me chuckle. He had to slide that in, huh?
RavageX
Member
So....for the most part I don't give a damn about indie games, most are the same thing anyway...walking sims, understanding feelings, or some "retro" crap. Honestly the less of that on NEXT GEN SYSTEMS the better. I did not spend the money that I did on a PS5 to play games that look like something from my childhood....or worse. Keep that crap on PC.
Watching the tweets, you can't change the price of your game for yourself is pretty scammy, even Apple let you make sales when you want.
vaibhavpisal
Member
If developers have issues, they need to be solved.
Why are people getting defensive over this?
Why are people getting defensive over this?
FatKingBallman
Banned
I saw an update. Since you updated the post with links than this part of the sentence "I have to say I don't know how Microsoft, Nintendo or Steam operate their shops but with so many developers talking bad about platform X way of doing it I'd expect to be much better." should have been removed because it is mentioned in Kotaku's article.
How is it scammy? I think Sony did it that way to prevent shovelware devs from abusing the system to get exposure. Unlike Apple's app store, sales on PS store gives your game a lot of exposure.
I don't want to see the same indie shovelware every time I browse the sales section.
Last edited:
I played indies before it became mainstream and loved a lot of them. Quests from Wadjet Eye (Blackwell, Resonance, Primordia), Botanicula, Machinarium, Samorost, etc. Now everyone is creating tons of shit and it's easy to became lost in this mass. Don't even want to spend a time to do a research and find something good in this mess. Just following developers who proved yourself already (waiting for Hollow Knight 2, Salt and Sanctuary sequel, Heart Forth Alicia, Happy Game from Amanita design, etc).
hyperbertha
Member
Lots of people misunderstanding in this thread. This guy is a publisher (neon doctrine), and they have published multiple indie games. One of their games is actually pretty well reviewed (vigil:longest night). So he's just complaining about how hard it is for indie games to get exposure on the store in general, compared to AAA or AA devs.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
I find that the platform owners will tend to emphasize the indies when they need them to avoid droughts or bolster their platform's library on the cheap.
If Sony can sell their featured space on the ps store for 25k (this is premium advertisement space) it's probably worth the hit for whoever decides to pay for the attention, as they will get tons of sales if their product makes an impression.
Another point is that small/mid sized games tend to sell much better on platforms where there is less choice as they get more attention there, they are not drowning under the nearly infinite marketingbbudget of the giant third party publishers. So they get more attention in dedicated blogs (less other content), online stores, etc.
That being said, it's not like they came out saying Sony doesn't pay the indies for the copies they sold, or they withheld the payments, or that Sony/Steam were mistreating them. The guys argue for more attention, they feel they don't get "enough" sales on the big platforms. If this is really a problem, less indies will release their games on PS (because it's not necessarily worth the effort) and the ones remaining will get the attention from the userbase on this platform... Things will balance out.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
People coming at him for exposing a pretty antiquated process is insane. People defending giant companies for shitty business practices is always odd. But sony is always a generation or two behind in terms of business. They usually win the tradition space for them keeping things as traditional as possible helps. By adapting to changing times they are allowing competition to gain a foot hold in a space they don't dominate which is selling boxes and selling games as been the case since the late 90s be it digital or physical. Why everything about them except their 2 or 3 AAA games suck. From the store, to the policies...behind pretty much everywhere.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
It's not just a them problem. The process by which Sony works with indies is archaic. Many people have complained about it. If it's not a AAA game Sony doesn't do a good job at promoting it.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
A reductive argument. More power to you.The game isn't good though
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
No, platform X doesn't feature gamepass he said.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
How can a person expect a not so good game to sell well on a platform that has tons of stellar games?
Iced Arcade
Member
Hardcore Sony fans will defend Sony no matter what the situation is.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Good promotion can sell even a mediocre game. It's not about the quality of the game, its giving lesser known developers the platform for their game to thrive. There are many many games that are beloved due to word of mouth but someone had to discover them due to a good market place or marketing. Not every good game sells well just because it's good. Again, thats the most simplistic way to look at smth. "gOod gAmE = gOoD SaLeS". It's about more than that based on his post and other indie developers response to him.How can a person expect a not so good game to sell well on a platform that has tons of stellar games?
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Playstation has tons of games.
You are saying Sony should advertise all of them?
Make solid titles and people will buy them.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Steam has even more games but developers are saying they perform better on there than steam despite similar user bases. Thats what is being questioned. Not only is getting a game on Playstation tougher and more expensive, but the performance is also lower and they don't share their criteria for the developer to improve the game or sales. Again, if it was as simple as "good games = good sales" then we'd have a new Kingdoms of Amalur already. But good games don't always sell well.
MScarpa
Member
Do you know ANYTHING about how a "Supermarket" as you call it works? Do you know how shelf space is determined? Rate of sale, Promotions, stock turn, etc. Terrible metaphor my friend. Try again.
The Pleasure
Member
Ghost of Johto, you sound like a defense against the evil sanys. Are you perhaps a voost by another name? Does Stadia ring a bell?
RavageX
Member
You know one of the things I hate about the Nintendo eshop? How it is littered with trash indie games. What they need to do is use social media(youtube and all that jazz) and I'm sure they will do fine.
I avoid the eshop because of all that crap. I'd avoid the Playstation Store if they started that nonsense too.
I avoid the eshop because of all that crap. I'd avoid the Playstation Store if they started that nonsense too.
kungfuian
Member
Just because Sony is focused on AAA doesn't mean they can't provide better support and promotion for Indi's. It's not a zero sum type of deal. Bottom line you want to make it as easy as possible for all developers, big and small, to create and sell their games on your platform.
No one expects the little guys to have quite the same treatment as the big guys, from a business standpoint that's not realistic. But when you make it unnecessarily difficult for developers to the point where they sell a fraction of what they can sell on competing platforms then something has to change.
Anything less is just bad business and they should absolutely be called out for it.
No one expects the little guys to have quite the same treatment as the big guys, from a business standpoint that's not realistic. But when you make it unnecessarily difficult for developers to the point where they sell a fraction of what they can sell on competing platforms then something has to change.
Anything less is just bad business and they should absolutely be called out for it.
Shelookdlvl18
Banned
He's right though.
It looks as though many people are trying to pivot the argument away from the actual complaints.
Indie devs and publishers are complaining about Sony's business practices when it comes to indie titles. According to them, Sony displays an obvious bias in which indies they choose to promote, while requiring a sort of pay to play model in order to get more exposure.
They're also claiming that indie developers can't put their games on sale, which is terribly biased as the AAA guys like R* can have a sale anytime they want. Furthermore, they're stating that this isn't some sort of industry wide issue. They're clearly saying that this is an issue with Sony alone.
Simply waving it off as "He's mad his game doesn't sell" is nothing more than deflection. Contrary to what several posters here have said. The PS Store isn't some vast behemoth that simply dwarfs every other platform's online store. If this ends up being more widespread then some devs may choose to skip PS altogether in the future.
MScarpa
Member
I bet he's also on Rumble. LMFAO
Raonak
Banned
Nah, it's definitely xbox.
gameass thing is nothing but misdirection.
Last edited:
MastaKiiLA
Member
I don't care too much about this whole situation. However, I do have a question, as someone who doesn't use any of these storefronts currently. Who has the best store from a gamer's perspective?
By that, I mean easiest to navigate, and find what you're looking for, without a ton of clutter?
For example, the MS store on Windows is a complete shitshow. The Android Play store is nowhere near as bad, but it's still cluttered with lots of apps that have similar names, which can make finding what you want a little bit tricky. Fortunately, the ratings system can be useful, when taken in combination with number of downloads.
In my limited use of the PS store, I've found it easy to get to what I want, though if I wanted to browse, I think it would be a nightmare. I think when it comes to promoting indies and whatnot, I'd prefer a platform holder to take a user-focused approach. I don't care about promoting shovelware. Android throws a decent amount of that at me through suggestions, which is why I largely ignore them. I don't use Steam, EGS, or GOG, so not idea how they perform with regards to ease of use for users, and accessibility for indies.
By that, I mean easiest to navigate, and find what you're looking for, without a ton of clutter?
For example, the MS store on Windows is a complete shitshow. The Android Play store is nowhere near as bad, but it's still cluttered with lots of apps that have similar names, which can make finding what you want a little bit tricky. Fortunately, the ratings system can be useful, when taken in combination with number of downloads.
In my limited use of the PS store, I've found it easy to get to what I want, though if I wanted to browse, I think it would be a nightmare. I think when it comes to promoting indies and whatnot, I'd prefer a platform holder to take a user-focused approach. I don't care about promoting shovelware. Android throws a decent amount of that at me through suggestions, which is why I largely ignore them. I don't use Steam, EGS, or GOG, so not idea how they perform with regards to ease of use for users, and accessibility for indies.
Shelookdlvl18
Banned
Between the stores on PS and Xbox. They're different but about equally adequate I guess. Xbox has more clutter, but if you know how to use it, it's faster to find things on. So I guess it cuts both ways.
I'm curious as to what games you play. Going by your post, you don't...
Use any of these storefronts currently.
Use Steam, EGS, or GOG.
While you do seem to have plenty of experience with the Play store.
Are you just on mobile or something?
kurisu_1974
is on perm warning for being a low level troll
Maybe if 90% of western indie games weren't absolute shit I'd be able to dredge some care from giveafuck bay.
Last edited:
PS Store: 4691
Nintendo eshop (only Switch): 5695
Games – My Nintendo Store – Nintendo Official site
Discover new video games for the Nintendo Switch™ system and the latest in sales and deals in the My Nintendo Store. Shop physical or digital games.
www.nintendo.com
Last edited:
The leading platform holder (on the console front), which currently is Nintendo, allow indie devs to set a discount for their games from the backend tools whenever they want without waiting for the platform holder action (be invited in the promotion).
Nintendo also might feature a indie game in specific sections to rise awareness without the need to pay the platform holder a fee and run periodical presentations about indie games called Indie World (it's the equivalent of the Nintendo Directs but for indies).
From Kotaku article:
PlayStation Is Hard To Work With, Devs Say
While Microsoft and Nintendo are far from perfect, Sony makes their lives most difficult
kotaku.com
The issue isn’t simply that Sony charges a minimum of $25,000 to be featured in a visible position on the PlayStation Store—it’s that this is, for most indie games, the only way to be visible. Without paying, developers are reporting that games get completely lost, which many have told us is in stark contrast to both Microsoft and Nintendo’s stores. While both offer ways to pay for prominence (although we’ve as yet been unable to confirm exact figures), what we keep being told is that they also offer many other free options too.
Meanwhile on Switch we’re told, “Without paying for featuring, there are spots on the eShop you will appear without paying. New releases, great deals, all those kinds of lists. And they will put new releases and decent discounts into the Discover tab too.”
-----
Of course, things aren’t all sunshine on the other platforms, but the central message was that things are significantly worse for indies with Sony. We learned some very odd details, like how Nintendo prevents developers from rolling out patches larger the 200MB without special permission, but in general, while no one thought anywhere was close to ideal, people are much happier with the experience and sales on Microsoft and Nintendo’s consoles.
------
“Crazily enough, Nintendo finally listened after many years, and now provide some of the best tools for devs to actually control their game,” a respected indie publisher told me. “So we can just drop a discount on Switch for our games whenever we want, at any discount level we want, it’s completely in our control. Steam is the only other platform that allows that.”
He points out that on Switch there are many ways to be featured without paying. “New releases, great deals, all those kinds of lists, and they will put new releases and decent discounts into the Discover tab too. [I’m] not saying it’s amazing, but it’s at least discovery methods, and we end up selling decent numbers on Switch because people can find our games.”
Then pauses and adds,
“Now try going on the PlayStation Store and finding a specific game.”
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
LTTP here, but the replys from the Platform X snobs are *exactly* what I expected from the thread.
If you ever need evidence as to which console maker fans are the most insufferable, please turn to page 1 of this thread.
It’d be funny to remove each and every game labeled as “indie” from the Platform X store and watch the Platform X stans’ reaction when their console suddenly can only flaunt a 2-digit amount of games when all the others have thousands (curious how that never works in reverse for them, too: “Plumber console has 3000 games? Lol, yeah, only because it has all the indie garbage of course!”)
I sincerely don’t know how you can only play the latest, flashiest, most expensive game of the week and be content with that.
If you ever need evidence as to which console maker fans are the most insufferable, please turn to page 1 of this thread.
It’d be funny to remove each and every game labeled as “indie” from the Platform X store and watch the Platform X stans’ reaction when their console suddenly can only flaunt a 2-digit amount of games when all the others have thousands (curious how that never works in reverse for them, too: “Plumber console has 3000 games? Lol, yeah, only because it has all the indie garbage of course!”)
I sincerely don’t know how you can only play the latest, flashiest, most expensive game of the week and be content with that.
HieroglyphicMonk
Banned
Why would you expect Sony to advertise your game more than their own titles? I wouldn't buy a playstation to play mediocre indie games.
HieroglyphicMonk
Banned
Terrible take I have a PC to play indie milsim shooters because the big studios don't provide them on console.
Last edited:
Papacheeks
Banned
I have to say I think people in here are not using all the information available to them.
Before swtich PSN had the highest volume of games and we got gems like Black tiger and a lot of garbage similar to what is on steam that are barley games.
The switch now has more because they need indie more than most. They dont have large big Third party games from EA, ACTIVISION, SQUARE that Xbox, PC, PS5/PS4 get. So they need more indies because of the mobile market they work in.
Also go take a look at the Eshop, tell me how much shovelware you see when they have sales? It's pretty bad which is why you see higher volume. Sony's way may seem tone deaf but it works in bringing you more quality games to your attention. Some games that are great do get lost in the shuffle though not going to lie.
Sony has so many large games front and center on their store with big Indie games they promote. Nintendo hardly needs to promote them and because there is no filter, there also similar to what happened to Steam and PSN more garbage, mobile style games on the store.
Also more indies are going there for their main source of sales because of indie games working well with a handheld style console.
The revisionist history in here is astounding.
History lesson, where were indie games on consoles in 2013? Starting to get more recognition and Sony among all platforms literally putting them on a stage. But it wasn't games like this guys, it was very unique stand out games. During this early time of indie, I heard nothing but praise from them. Even though possibly they were selling more maybe on average on steam depending on if they did a deal with Sony for PS+ LAUNCH/RELEASE which is what Gamepass is doing now.
You can't be market leader with the largest collection of Big AA-AAA titles from east and west, and also try to promote the average pixel art platformer or story sim on a even playing field. Like look at steam unless you have it setup to only show you things you like it's packed.
If this was larger issue , and not a isolated incident to small developers who have games that occupy the same space as many, many other indie games in the same genre then I would have to agree on a lot. I think the only thing that seems somewhat broken is the communication part not that their game is not selling on a platform that has been known to make indie developers blow up from exposure. Your stuff needs to have something for that to happen.
You cant expect a company to put out the red carpet for your game when there are 10 others similar or like it that are already established or possibly better.
The communication is def a issue one that I think probably is better if your game has more to it.
Before swtich PSN had the highest volume of games and we got gems like Black tiger and a lot of garbage similar to what is on steam that are barley games.
The switch now has more because they need indie more than most. They dont have large big Third party games from EA, ACTIVISION, SQUARE that Xbox, PC, PS5/PS4 get. So they need more indies because of the mobile market they work in.
Also go take a look at the Eshop, tell me how much shovelware you see when they have sales? It's pretty bad which is why you see higher volume. Sony's way may seem tone deaf but it works in bringing you more quality games to your attention. Some games that are great do get lost in the shuffle though not going to lie.
Sony has so many large games front and center on their store with big Indie games they promote. Nintendo hardly needs to promote them and because there is no filter, there also similar to what happened to Steam and PSN more garbage, mobile style games on the store.
Also more indies are going there for their main source of sales because of indie games working well with a handheld style console.
The revisionist history in here is astounding.
History lesson, where were indie games on consoles in 2013? Starting to get more recognition and Sony among all platforms literally putting them on a stage. But it wasn't games like this guys, it was very unique stand out games. During this early time of indie, I heard nothing but praise from them. Even though possibly they were selling more maybe on average on steam depending on if they did a deal with Sony for PS+ LAUNCH/RELEASE which is what Gamepass is doing now.
You can't be market leader with the largest collection of Big AA-AAA titles from east and west, and also try to promote the average pixel art platformer or story sim on a even playing field. Like look at steam unless you have it setup to only show you things you like it's packed.
If this was larger issue , and not a isolated incident to small developers who have games that occupy the same space as many, many other indie games in the same genre then I would have to agree on a lot. I think the only thing that seems somewhat broken is the communication part not that their game is not selling on a platform that has been known to make indie developers blow up from exposure. Your stuff needs to have something for that to happen.
You cant expect a company to put out the red carpet for your game when there are 10 others similar or like it that are already established or possibly better.
The communication is def a issue one that I think probably is better if your game has more to it.
Last edited:
AdjudicatorHead
Member
I mean you said it right there, rate of sale. These games aren’t selling enough to be on Sony’s radar for featuring, just as a product which doesn’t sell enough to be on a supermarket’s radar wouldn’t get free shelf space solely out of the goodness of that business’ heart.
And yes, they are called supermarkets in most of Europe, it’s not some alien term as your “as you call it” seems to suggest. Your country isn’t the center of the universe.
EDIT:
Ah, it all makes sense now:
I shouldn’t have wasted my time replying, goodbye.
Last edited:
Mitsuda Maniac
Member
I wish there was a better overall relationship with indies since I do often buy them Day 1, but overall I almost always play them on Steam.
- Status