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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What do they want to end here, and who can actually end it? Surely you don't think you just made a relevant analogy there.

The most obvious and easy is corporate personhood and a government controlled by lobbyists and businesses.

Consider SOPA. Congress is voted in to represent its constituents. Who in the world asked for SOPA? Who is the government representing there?

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Ugh, why can't police just use plain old violence and beat the shit out of them with batons.

Spoiler

They expected to be sprayed, so at least they got what they wanted, I guess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLzSeErNFg0

 

[Byakuya769]

Stuff like this makes me think just maybe it's not a good time for Civil Rights....

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Oh America, your culture of fear has reached a new low.
Looks like some of you even support things that go against your own constitution is order to maintain the status quo.
Sad.

I'm desensitized to the police apologists on GAF. It's ridiculous. Apparently putting on a uniform and badge allows you to act as a superhuman without constraints or laws.

As the chants repeatedly ask: who were the police protecting and serving here?

 

[FStop7]

Oh America, your culture of fear has reached a new low.
Looks like some of you even support things that go against your own constitution is order to maintain the status quo.
Sad.

Not that I disagree with you but if you think this is exclusively an American thing then you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Tideas]

Why did they need to separate the crowd in the first place? They were doing NOTHING wrong. You're not seeing the point here.

We have a RIGHT to protest.

and you have the right to suffer the consequences of those protest.

What, did you think civil disobedience means there shouldn't be consequences? If there aren't consequences, then it wouldnt be civil disobediecne

 

[Devolution]

I'm desensitized to the police apologists on GAF. It's ridiculous. Apparently putting on a uniform and badge allows you to act as a superhuman without constraints or laws.

As the chants repeatedly ask: who were the police protecting and serving here?

The ants man, now they gotta walk all the way around those kids, shit's gonna take 'em like a day.

This wasn't even a proper sit-in, pepper spray really?

 

[royalan]

Really, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" moment for the cops, and that really sucks for them. Not to say that there isn't corruption in the police force, but the average cop is really just trying to do their job, and a lot of people don't seem to know (or care) about that.

I'm not sure about that particular area, but I know in LA public sidewalks are governed in a similar way to roads. You really can't just do whatever you want on them. If you want to do anything other than walk on public sidewalks, 9 times out of 10 you need a permit. That's why in a lot of cities, if you go to parks and there are performers or speakers, you'll notice that they're usually on the grass next to the sidewalk, and not on it. It's the law and nothing new. Get over it.

Imagine you're one of these cops, and you've been sent down to disperse a group of people protesting and setting up tents on private/government areas. Before you get there, the students have already removed the tents, but now they're blockading a public sidewalk. By their actions they're commandeering public property and it's the officer's job to uphold the law. It's a "peaceful" protest, but the cops can't just not do their jobs.

So the cops have a few options:

Talk to them and tell them to move: obviously, that doesn't work.

Physically restrain the protesters and remove them from the sidewalk: Within their right to do (and maybe what they should have done), but not without its problems. A high risk of an accidental push or shove turning into a full scale physical confrontation between the protesters and the outnumbered cops. And the cops have every right to put their own safety first. Not to mention, that would have looked worse on youtube.

Convince the protesters to leave via other means (pepper spray): Not the nicest way to do it, but it's a tactic that's "usually" effective at dispersing groups without huge risk to cops.

It doesn't make for a pretty Youtube video, but I can definitely see the cops thinking that using pepper spray to disperse the group was a logical course of action. Whether or not it actually was remains to be seen, but this incident is not an example of gross police brutality. ANYTHING the cops would have done in that situation would have looked bad in an out-of-context youtube video.

You see, as peaceful as the people want to claim their protest is, it's really not. If they wanted it to be peaceful, they wouldn't have blockaded a public sidewalk in the first place. These kids, with their cameras and internet connections, want to push the cops to do something that the could blow out of proportion as a OMG POLICE BRUTALITY FUCK THESE EVIL COPS!!! So they can have their moment of self-importance.

 

[bob page]

and you have the right to suffer the consequences of those protest.

What, did you think civil disobedience means there shouldn't be consequences? If there aren't consequences, then it wouldnt be civil disobediecne

You have issues if you think point-blank pepper spray to the face was a justified consequence for this.

Really, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" moment for the cops, and that really sucks for them. Not to say that there isn't corruption in the police force, but the average cop is really just trying to do their job, and a lot of people don't seem to know (or care) about that.

I'm not sure about that particular area, but I know in LA public sidewalks are governed in a similar way to roads. You really can't just do whatever you want on them. If you want to do anything other than walk on public sidewalks, 9 times out of 10 you need a permit. That's why in a lot of cities, if you go to parks and there are performers or speakers, you'll notice that they're usually on the grass next to the sidewalk, and not on it. It's the law and nothing new. Get over it.

Imagine you're one of these cops, and you've been sent down to disperse a group of people protesting and setting up tents on private/government areas. Before you get there, the students have already removed the tents, but now they're blockading a public sidewalk. By their actions they're commandeering public property and it's the officer's job to uphold the law. It's a "peaceful" protest, but the cops can't just not do their jobs.

So the cops have a few options:

Talk to them and tell them to move: obviously, that doesn't work.

Physically restrain the protesters and remove them from the sidewalk: Within their right to do (and maybe what they should have done), but not without its problems. A high risk of an accidental push or shove turning into a full scale physical confrontation between the protesters and the outnumbered cops. And the cops have every right to put their own safety first. Not to mention, that would have looked worse on youtube.

Convince the protesters to leave via other means (pepper spray): Not the nicest way to do it, but it's a tactic that's "usually" effective at dispersing groups without huge risk to cops.

It doesn't make for a pretty Youtube video, but I can definitely see the cops thinking that using pepper spray to disperse the group was a logical course of action. Whether or not it actually was remains to be seen, but this incident is not an example of gross police brutality. ANYTHING the cops would have done in that situation would have looked bad in an out-of-context youtube video.

You see, as peaceful as the people want to claim their protest is, it's really not. If they wanted it to be peaceful, they wouldn't have blockaded a public sidewalk in the first place. These kids, with their cameras and internet connections, want to push the cops to do something that the could blow out of proportion as a OMG POLICE BRUTALITY FUCK THESE EVIL COPS!!! So they can have their moment of self-importance.

There are so many wrong things in this post I don't even know where to start.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

If they wanted it to be peaceful, they wouldn't have blockaded a public sidewalk in the first place.

What.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Oh America, your culture of fear has reached a new low.
Looks like some of you even support things that go against your own constitution is order to maintain the status quo.
Sad.

we really need the laughing smiley back.

 

[Byakuya769]

and you have the right to suffer the consequences of those protest.

What, did you think civil disobedience means there shouldn't be consequences? If there aren't consequences, then it wouldnt be civil disobediecne

You never cease to amaze.

 

[TheMan]

These kids, with their cameras and internet connections, want to push the cops to do something that the could blow out of proportion as a OMG POLICE BRUTALITY FUCK THESE EVIL COPS!!! So they can have their moment of self-importance.

I believe there is definitely some truth in this. However, I don't buy the justification for pepper spray. Just doesn't make sense to use it against unarmed kids who are in no way attempting or threatening to harm those cops.


Actually, after taking a look at that second video, I'm having some doubts that the cops used pepper spray. Those kids just sat there and took the spray to their faces without even moving. From what I understand, pepper spray HURTS (that's the whole point of using it, no?). They should have been writhing around and rubbing their eyes. I'm starting to think that MAYBE the cops agreed that pepper spray would have been out of line and went with some other alternative. More info, perhaps from someone who go sprayed, would be nice.

 

[outunderthestars]

I believe there is definitely some truth in this. However, I don't buy the justification for pepper spray. Just doesn't make sense to use it against unarmed kids who are in no way attempting or threatening to harm those cops.

You apparently have never been to an anti-logging, anti-mining, or anti-globalization protest.

I've seen them actually swab pepper spray directly in peoples' eyes before.

 

[Anticitizen One]

I definitely stand with the protesters on this. They did nothing wrong and the police used excessive force for really no reason. These police clearly need to be reeducated on the role of law enforcement.

 

[Wazzim]

we really need the laughing smiley back.

?

 

[kame-sennin]

This is clearly the actions of a clueless jackass, not widespread institutionalized response to peaceful protesters. People are really overreacting to this, it's really ridiculous.

What I hope this does bring, is widespread insitutionalized guidelines that respect people's rights and avoids a repeat of this situation.

I think your completely wrong on this. The tactics have been the same at every Occupy protest. The most aggressive actions have been taken by police officers wearing white shirts - the supervisors. Mayor Quan of Oakland said she was on a conference call with 18 other city mayors before the nation wide raids last week. This is very clearly an institutionalized, top-down directive.

 

[royalan]

There are so many wrong things in this post I don't even know where to start.

Cheers.

Actually, after taking a look at that second video, I'm having some doubts that the cops used pepper spray. Those kids just sat there and took the spray to their faces without even moving. From what I understand, pepper spray HURTS (that's the whole point of using it, no?). They should have been writhing around and rubbing their eyes. I'm starting to think that MAYBE the cops agreed that pepper spray would have been out of line and went with some other alternative. More info, perhaps from someone who go sprayed, would be nice.

I think you're right, and that crossed my mind while watching the video, too. Pepper spray is NO f-ing joke, and I highly doubt that any of those kids would have been able to take the amount he was spraying without moving an inch.

 

[elrechazado]

I think your completely wrong on this. The tactics have been the same at every Occupy protest. The most aggressive actions have been taken by police officers wearing white shirts - the supervisors. Mayor Quan of Oakland said she was on a conference call with 18 other city mayors before the nation wide raids last week. This is very clearly an institutionalized, top-down directive.

This is just demonstrably untrue though.

 

[Suikoguy]

I should have figured there would be police defenders on neogaf for this...

 

[bob page]

Cheers.




I think you're right, and that crossed my mind while watching the video, too. Pepper spray is NO f-ing joke, and I highly doubt that any of those kids would have been able to take the amount he was spraying without moving an inch.

It's called making a statement. Several of them were hospitalized after the incident, with all of them suffering lung issues, vomiting, bleeding from the throat, etc.

 

[thefit]

Reading through these posts I get the feeling there are a lot of sheltered kids here or that the history of the civil rights movement in the US just isn't taught anymore its really troubling. Maybe its an age thing but I didn't appreciate the history much until I was an adult and a father, we were taught civil rights heavily from at an early age having attended inner city schools I even had the fortune to meet Mrs. Parks before her passing. Good on these kids, they shall overcome some day too.

 

[Wazzim]

I should have figured there would be police defenders on neogaf for this...

The police can shoot some people next week and there'll be some good amount of defenders, some people are born with no feel for morality.

 

[FStop7]

You apparently have never been to an anti-logging, anti-mining, or anti-globalization protest.

I've seen them actually swab pepper spray directly in peoples' eyes before.

If done properly, that (swabbing a small amount of OC/pepper spray near the eyes, not directly onto the eyeballs) is probably safer than what the cop in the UC Davis photos appears to be doing, which was just dumping away.

 

[poisonelf]

God damn it, even THIS gets a defense force? What is it with some people's need to defend each and every action of the established powers that be. When pepper spray turns into deadly chemicals, and then to bullets, go ahead and cheer the 1% your supposed servants (paid by you) are obeying and protecting.

 

[Mumei]

Glenn Greenwald, as usual, had a good article about this:

The now-viral video of police officers in their Robocop costumes sadistically pepper-spraying peaceful, sitting protesters at UC-Davis (details here) shows a police state in its pure form. It’s easy to be outraged by this incident as though it’s some sort of shocking aberration, but that is exactly what it is not. The Atlantic‘s Garance Franke-Ruta adeptly demonstrates with an assemblage of video how common such excessive police force has been in response to the Occupy protests. Along those lines, there are several points to note about this incident and what it reflects:

(1) Despite all the rights of free speech and assembly flamboyantly guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, the reality is that punishing the exercise of those rights with police force and state violence has been the reflexive response in America for quite some time. As Franke-Ruta put it, “America has a very long history of protests that meet with excessive or violent response, most vividly recorded in the second half of the 20th century.” Digby yesterday recounted a similar though even worse incident aimed at environmental protesters.

The intent and effect of such abuse is that it renders those guaranteed freedoms meaningless. If a population becomes bullied or intimidated out of exercising rights offered on paper, those rights effectively cease to exist. Every time the citizenry watches peaceful protesters getting pepper-sprayed — or hears that an Occupy protester suffered brain damage and almost died after being shot in the skull with a rubber bullet — many become increasingly fearful of participating in this citizen movement, and also become fearful in general of exercising their rights in a way that is bothersome or threatening to those in power. That’s a natural response, and it’s exactly what the climate of fear imposed by all abusive police state actions is intended to achieve: to coerce citizens to “decide” on their own to be passive and compliant — to refrain from exercising their rights — out of fear of what will happen if they don’t.

The genius of this approach is how insidious its effects are: because the rights continue to be offered on paper, the citizenry continues to believe it is free. They believe that they are free to do everything they choose to do, because they have been “persuaded” — through fear and intimidation — to passively accept the status quo. As Rosa Luxemburg so perfectly put it: “Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.” Someone who sits at home and never protests or effectively challenges power factions will not realize that their rights of speech and assembly have been effectively eroded because they never seek to exercise those rights; it’s only when we see steadfast, courageous resistance from the likes of these UC-Davis students is this erosion of rights manifest.

Pervasive police abuses and intimidation tactics applied to peaceful protesters — pepper-spray, assault rifles, tasers, tear gas and the rest — not only harm their victims but also the relationship of the citizenry to the government and the set of core political rights. Implanting fear of authorities in the heart of the citizenry is a far more effective means of tyranny than overtly denying rights. That’s exactly what incidents like this are intended to achieve. Overzealous prosecution of those who engage in peaceful political protest (which we’ve seen more and more of over the last several years) as well as rampant secrecy and the sprawling Surveillance State are the close cousins of excessive police force in both intent and effect: they are all about deterring meaningful challenges to those in power through the exercise of basic rights. Rights are so much more effectively destroyed by bullying a citizenry out of wanting to exercise them than any other means.

http://www.salon.com/2011/11/20/the_roots_of_the_uc_davis_pepper_spraying/

More at the link.

This is just demonstrably untrue though.

Could you demonstrate it for me? I had not heard that before.

 

[thefit]

If done properly, that (swabbing a small amount of OC/pepper spray near the eyes, not directly onto the eyeballs) is probably safer than what the cop in the UC Davis photos appears to be doing, which was just dumping away.

...and now we're defending/comparing techniques on how to pepper spray...really? fuck off.

 

[videogamer]

I think you're right, and that crossed my mind while watching the video, too. Pepper spray is NO f-ing joke, and I highly doubt that any of those kids would have been able to take the amount he was spraying without moving an inch.

Then why isn't the university saying that it wasn't pepper spray?

 

[BoobPhysics101]

We don't have rights and freedoms in America anymore, just privileges. And just like driving, these privileges can be revoked at any moment, whether it's justified or not.

Any police officer that would pepper spray peaceful protesters is a piece of shit and needs to lose his badge. I know how much pepper spray hurts and that's just a sick thing to do, far worse than the alternatives of physical restraint that they could've employed, even though none of it was necessary in the first place.

 

[FStop7]

God damn it, even THIS gets a defense force? What is it with some people's need to defend each and every action of the established powers that be. When pepper spray turns into deadly chemicals, and then to bullets, go ahead and cheer the 1% your supposed servants (paid by you) are obeying and protecting.

I'm not sure why you're surprised by this.

What I want to know is why the cops were even at the protest. As far as I can tell the only thing being blocked was a sidewalk. And for whatever reason it was determined that the protest needed to be broken up, why did the police immediately escalate things to the use of chemical weapons? What justified that level of action? Of course, the answer is 'nothing justified it', but the defenders will try. Whether they really believe it or they're just basement dwellers trying to get a rise out of people in order to make themselves feel better about their own sad lives... only they can say.

We don't have rights and freedoms in America anymore, just privileges. And just like driving, these privileges can be revoked at any moment, whether it's justified or not.

One of the most frustrating types of conversation I can have is with someone who does not understand that many, if not most of the rights outlined in the US Constitution are not granted by the Constitution - that they exist above all else, no matter what, and they cannot be "given" or "taken away" by any man made law. The lack of comprehension of the terms "inalienable" and "God given" drives me up the wall. Freedom is not derived from a government permission slip.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Really, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" moment for the cops, and that really sucks for them. Not to say that there isn't corruption in the police force, but the average cop is really just trying to do their job, and a lot of people don't seem to know (or care) about that.

I'm not sure about that particular area, but I know in LA public sidewalks are governed in a similar way to roads. You really can't just do whatever you want on them. If you want to do anything other than walk on public sidewalks, 9 times out of 10 you need a permit. That's why in a lot of cities, if you go to parks and there are performers or speakers, you'll notice that they're usually on the grass next to the sidewalk, and not on it. It's the law and nothing new. Get over it.

Imagine you're one of these cops, and you've been sent down to disperse a group of people protesting and setting up tents on private/government areas. Before you get there, the students have already removed the tents, but now they're blockading a public sidewalk. By their actions they're commandeering public property and it's the officer's job to uphold the law. It's a "peaceful" protest, but the cops can't just not do their jobs.

So the cops have a few options:

Talk to them and tell them to move: obviously, that doesn't work.

Physically restrain the protesters and remove them from the sidewalk: Within their right to do (and maybe what they should have done), but not without its problems. A high risk of an accidental push or shove turning into a full scale physical confrontation between the protesters and the outnumbered cops. And the cops have every right to put their own safety first. Not to mention, that would have looked worse on youtube.

Convince the protesters to leave via other means (pepper spray): Not the nicest way to do it, but it's a tactic that's "usually" effective at dispersing groups without huge risk to cops.

It doesn't make for a pretty Youtube video, but I can definitely see the cops thinking that using pepper spray to disperse the group was a logical course of action. Whether or not it actually was remains to be seen, but this incident is not an example of gross police brutality. ANYTHING the cops would have done in that situation would have looked bad in an out-of-context youtube video.

You see, as peaceful as the people want to claim their protest is, it's really not. If they wanted it to be peaceful, they wouldn't have blockaded a public sidewalk in the first place. These kids, with their cameras and internet connections, want to push the cops to do something that the could blow out of proportion as a OMG POLICE BRUTALITY FUCK THESE EVIL COPS!!! So they can have their moment of self-importance.

This couldn't have been a real post. Oh those poor cops put in a situation where they have to choose to leave peacefully protesting kids alone or...pepper spray them in the face with military-grade spray from 6 inches away? the fuck outtahere with that nonsense.

Not that I disagree with you but if you think this is exclusively an American thing then you haven't been paying attention.

what is this moral relativistic garbage? who cares what other countries are or aren't doing? We expect more, and whether it is better or worse anywhere else has absolutely no bearing on what WE expect here. We don't expect this sort of conduct from those employed for our protection. PERIOD. Fuck other countries.

 

[FoxSpirit]

I'm desensitized to the police apologists on GAF. It's ridiculous. Apparently putting on a uniform and badge allows you to act as a superhuman without constraints or laws.

As the chants repeatedly ask: who were the police protecting and serving here?

Simple answer: the law
But seriously, the only times countries have seen major law reforms was after revolutions and huge wars, as sad as it sounds. And both events just have dreadful side effects. Such a shit situation.

And yeah, we in Europe had the Stuttgart 21 incident were there was a very liberal use of water throwers. This picture caused a big stir in Germany:

66 years old and retired, was peacefully protesting. Actually, he was helping students that were swept away by the water throwers and waved at the police to signal them to stop. Then he got hit straight in the face. One eye totally blind, 2nd eye now can roughly distinguish humans after 2 operations.

The officials said the project passed all the regular channels and remarked no big protests against this had been done the past 10 years. Of course, when the whole project started there were but the government played the "sit it out" card and continued by submitting the project to the bureaucratic machinery where it was clear nothing could be done. But once it was suddenly finalised protest started up again.

The project will cost billions and is under serious debate not only for necessity but also geologic reasons. The ground under Stuttgart is really fickle with lots of water veins and instabilities. There have been large problems with that even on smaller projects.

In the end, the government said "it now final" but promised more citicen participation in the future.

 

[royalan]

I should have figured there would be police defenders on neogaf for this...

Yeah, because everyone loves to shit on the police. Until they need them, that is.

Look, I'll go on the record and say that I'm not 100% certain that pepper spray was the right course of action. Maybe they should have just hauled them all off to jail, but then we'd all be sitting here watching that video. Because the point of that protest was to provoke this kind of reaction.

I don't see blatant police brutality and gross abuse of power. I don't see this as a sign that we're living in a police state. I see people protesting on private property and the police responding in accordance to their jobs.

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

This couldn't have been a real post. Oh those poor cops put in a situation where they have to choose to leave peacefully protesting kids alone or...pepper spray them in the face with military-grade spray from 6 inches away? the fuck outtahere with that nonsense.

The problem here is that a lot of people are placing too much personal emotion in the cops themselves. Those cops most likely didn't have a personal vendetta with any of those protesters. But at the same time, why do people think it would have been so easy for the cops to just leave them alone? They have a job to do. They were sent down there to remove people from protesting on private property. Why is the anger being aimed at the cops and not the university?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I don't see blatant police brutality and gross abuse of power.

what is this i don't even

is this real life

 

[BoobPhysics101]

One of the most frustrating types of conversation I can have is with someone who does not understand that many, if not most of the rights outlined in the US Constitution are not granted by the Constitution - that they exist above all else, no matter what, and they cannot be "given" or "taken away" by any man made law. The lack of comprehension of the term "God given" drives me up the wall. Freedom is not derived from a government permission slip.

So you're arguing that they exist based on philosophy. Ok, but that doesn't help in the ENFORCEMENT or ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of such rights. It's well and dandy to believe in them, but thoughts only go so far.

Yeah, because everyone loves to shit on the police. Until they need them, that is.

Look, I'll go on the record and say that I'm not 100% certain that pepper spray was the right course of action. Maybe they should have just hauled them all off to jail, but then we'd all be sitting here watching that video. Because the point of that protest was to provoke this kind of reaction.

I don't see blatant police brutality and gross abuse of power. I don't see this as a sign that we're living in a police state. I see people protesting on private property and the police responding in accordance to their jobs.

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

I lol'd. Yeah, 'cause these kids are just trolling the police to get them to do something unjustified and to cry 'police brutality.' Get the fuck outta here with that garbage, the whole point of the protest was about WALL STREET and possibly UC Davis policies, not police corruption.

 

[videogamer]

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

Pepper spraying the protestors probably risked their livelihoods more than leaving them alone. The policeman who pepper sprayed the protester has been suspended and is under a lot of scrutiny.

 

[Mumei]

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

... Arrested them? I don't know why you are attempting to turn this into a binary situation where the options were "pepper spray them or leave."

 

[bob page]

Yeah, because everyone loves to shit on the police. Until they need them, that is.

Look, I'll go on the record and say that I'm not 100% certain that pepper spray was the right course of action. Maybe they should have just hauled them all off to jail, but then we'd all be sitting here watching that video. Because the point of that protest was to provoke this kind of reaction.

I don't see blatant police brutality and gross abuse of power. I don't see this as a sign that we're living in a police state. I see people protesting on private property and the police responding in accordance to their jobs.

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

You're unbelievably delusional.

1) It's THEIR JOB to protect and serve. It's not some sort of charity they're giving us to offer protection.
2) Their livelihoods most certainly were not at risk. They were calm and joking.

 

[FStop7]

what is this moral relativistic garbage? who cares what other countries are or aren't doing? We expect more, and whether it is better or worse anywhere else has absolutely no bearing on what WE expect here. We don't expect this sort of conduct from those employed for our protection. PERIOD. Fuck other countries.

Way to jump to conclusions there, sparky.

 

[Carcetti]

I have 2 cops in the extended family and I see police brutality in those videos. But then I'm still living in a country where the first and most important weapon of the police is their ability to talk to the people. If I wanted to protest something peacefully (and I did once within last 2 years) the police would be civil and professional and there would be almost 100% chance of protest staying peaceful. All that crap I see here is symptoms of a society gone badly wrong. And I 'm saying this with sadness, not smugness, since I'm sure this kind of shit will leak this way somehow in time.

 

[FStop7]

So you're arguing that they exist based on philosophy. Ok, but that doesn't help in the ENFORCEMENT or ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of such rights. It's well and dandy to believe in them, but thoughts only go so far.

No, I'm more commenting about trying to get into the heads of police brutality apologists who sincerely believe in their positions. I think they are of the mindset that government is the source of all of rights, and therefore any opposition to government, no matter how benign, is an attack on freedom. And one of my greatest frustrations when trying to have any kind of discussion with someone of this mindset is that they completely fail to understand that their understanding of "inalienable rights" as defined by the Constitution (and the founders of the USA) is wrong.

 

[Suairyu]

I don't see blatant police brutality and gross abuse of power. I don't see this as a sign that we're living in a police state.

I'm stunned. Seriously.

So the use of a weapon on a non-violent threat isn't brutality? Because that is what pepper spray is - a weaponised substance. In most countries it is not accessible to the public, in those that do allow public carry and use of pepper spray, many require licenses.

In all states that utilise pepper spray as a form of police weapon, it is officially to be used only as a pacifier in a violent situation, not for punitive or pre-emptive measures.

Pepper spray isn't adopted by the police in many countries because the claims of it being "non lethal" have been proven time and time again to be false - people die from receiving hits of pepper spray from the police. It can cause breathing complications and respiratory failure, especially when fired at point-blank range for an extended period of time, just like in this UC Davis incident.

This was police brutality. This was assault with a weapon. This was fucking disgraceful.

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods.

I don't know, why didn't they do their goddamn jobs and enforce the law with care and consideration?

Assuming they were in breach of law, why is "use of force to separate students" a big, bad no-no? It is a whole lot safer for the police to go in, forcefully separate the students and arrest them. That wouldn't require harm to the students. When did non-violently arresting people to control a situation, rather than utilising weapons against those clearly not a threat, become a non-option?

How the situation should have gone down:
Officer: You are in breach of <specific law> and you are to disperse immediately.
...
Officer: Disperse immediately or face legal action.
...
The students having not dispersed, the officers then work together to arrest the students non-violently and take them away. In the event (and only in the event) of the students resisting arrest by violent means and posing a genuine threat to the officers, use stricter force, perhaps even to the ends of pepper spray (though they should avoid its use where possible), should be applied to carry out the arrest.

That isn't exactly hard, that's the required legal process to lawfully arrest someone in most countries.

 

[kame-sennin]

Has this been mentioned:

Police used batons to try to push the students apart. Those they could separate, they arrested, kneeling on their bodies and pushing their heads into the ground. Those they could not separate, they pepper-&#8203;sprayed directly in the face, holding these students as they did so. When students covered their eyes with their clothing, police forced open their mouths and pepper-&#8203;sprayed down their throats. Several of these students were hospitalized. Others are seriously injured. One of them, forty-&#8203;five minutes after being pepper-&#8203;sprayed down his throat, was still coughing up blood.

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...er-spraying-of-students/news/2011/11/19/30450

This is just demonstrably untrue though.

Could you elaborate please?

To the people defending the protesters, what do you think the cops should have done? Well, short of just leaving them alone and risking their own livelihoods...

Honestly, they're kids chanting on the sidewalk of their college campus. When I was in college, we had a protest like that every month. There's no reason to disperse it at all, this kind of thing is part of their education.

 

[royalan]

You're unbelievably delusional.

1) It's THEIR JOB to protect and serve. It's not some sort of charity they're giving us to offer protection.
2) Their livelihoods most certainly were not at risk. They were calm and joking.

1) I'm not seeing how you're using that to argue against anything I've said. If the police were sent down there to disperse people protesting on private property, how is that not doing their job?

2) Ok, and what does their demeanor have to do with anything? You mean to tell me that you don't see how, if the police were dispatched to quell a protest on private property and they came back having not done anything with the excuse "Oh! They're just kids!" that there is no way they would have possibly gotten in any trouble with a higher-ranked official?

... Arrested them? I don't know why you are attempting to turn this into a binary situation where the options were "pepper spray them or leave."

I'm not. But I've read plenty of news articles and facebook posts about people outraged over simple arrests, too. I doubt all those people with their cameras would have just gone home if the police simply arrested the kids.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing FOR pepper spraying people here. I'm just saying that being a police officer at times like this is a job I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. There's practically NOTHING police can do in these types of situations that people won't use to further demonize them.

 

[elrechazado]

Could you elaborate please?

If this were a conspiracy of top down abandonment of civil rights, we'd see more than a couple of incidents, and frankly we'd see much more serious things happening. The absence of the thing is evidence here that it's just not true. Why is that hard to understand. Did you read what I quoted?

 

[BoobPhysics101]

No, I'm more commenting about trying to get into the heads of police brutality apologists who sincerely believe in their positions. I think they are of the mindset that government is the source of all of rights, and therefore any opposition to government, no matter how benign, is an attack on freedom. And one of my greatest frustrations when trying to have any kind of discussion with someone of this mindset is that they completely fail to understand that their understanding of "inalienable rights" as defined by the Constitution (and the founders of the USA) is wrong.

Oh, gotcha. Makes sense. Police brutality apologists are just one nightstick up their ass away from reality, though.

Has this been mentioned:



http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...er-spraying-of-students/news/2011/11/19/30450



Could you elaborate please?

God fucking damn. Lawsuit and civil rights action time.

 

[Suairyu]

Has this been mentioned:



http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...er-spraying-of-students/news/2011/11/19/30450

Given the known risk of respiratory failure pepper spray poses, the act of spraying it into a student's open mouth means the officer responsible is willfully and knowledgeably jeopardising that student's life. That's called attempted murder when not done by a police officer.

Not a fan of OWS but this is fucking disgusting. Fat piece of shit cop should be fired for this.

Just fired? He should be put on criminal trial.

 

[scar tissue]

Not a fan of OWS but this is fucking disgusting. Fat piece of shit cop should be fired for this.

 

[kame-sennin]

If this were a conspiracy of top down abandonment of civil rights, we'd see more than a couple of incidents, and frankly we'd see much more serious things happening. The absence of the thing is evidence here that it's just not true. Why is that hard to understand. Did you read what I quoted?

I'm not talking about a conspiracy to abandon civil rights. I'm saying that the mayors across the country have decided that they want to roll up the Occuoy movement, and they have all sanctioned the use of pepper spray, tear gas, and batons, even though the protests are non-violent. Most of the major protests have seen these methods used, and one mayor is on record stating that OWS was discussed by 18 city mayors, so I'm not sure why you'd argue that this isn't widespread.

If you don't think these methods are a violation of civil rights, that's a separate issue.

 

[Devolution]

ITT people hand wave the use of pepper spray as a weapon.