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PoliGAF 2015-2016 |OT3| If someone named PhoenixDark leaves your party, call the cops

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B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
pigeon said:
But, like, so was saying we should ban all Muslim immigration and put current Muslims in camps. Prominent political figures didn't used to say that stuff, so other prominent political figures didn't call them fascists? Seems pretty reasonable to me?
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FDR actually did it but I don't recall Poligaf ever complaining about him being a Nazi. When they're on your 'team' they're just succumbing to racism or nationalist fervor, when they're on the other side they're Hitler 2.0.
 
M

Makai

Member
Brawndo Addict said:
FDR actually did it but I don't recall Poligaf ever complaining about him being a Nazi. When they're on your 'team' they're just succumbing to racism or nationalist fervor, when they're on the other side they're Hitler 2.0.
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America even dabbled in eugenics around the same time.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Manmademan said:
It actually is a solid theory, I said the same thing.

It would be amazing if this entire thing was some bizarre long con by the republicans to keep the Senate in 2016, but that level of political strategy is just inhuman
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Trump is actually an nth dimensional political chess player unleashing the full Xanatos gambit. He agreed to run as a Republican for Clinton to destroy the Republicans, but has reneged on the deal to deliver the Senate to them. In honour, the Republicans will announce him leader of the House when he runs in 2018, where he triggers an impeachment of President Sanders and Vice President Clinton, making him President by virtue of presidential succession. By 2020, the United States of America is rebranded as Trump Industries. The nuclear apocalypse follows shortly.
 
S

Snake

Member
I can't be shocked about people failing to understand when to use terms like fascism or Nazism against their opponents when the average political observer fails 99/100 times on things like corporatism and socialism, even when talking about their own side.

But I particularly dislike that the fascism card has gone mainstream against Trump so soon, when it means that conservatives are going to rally around him and use that as an excuse to ignore the actual terribleness of his message, all while that message continues to get worse.
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
I'd probably consider an independent Trump run "less bad" for Senate Republicans than a GOP Trump candidacy. I don't know if I'd classify it as good or helpful for them.

Senate Republicans are truly up shit creek with Trump as their standard bearer. They're going to have to pledge to support a truly loathsome presidential candidate (Rob Portman already has, actually), which could backfire badly, or they're going to have to break party unity and not support him, which could also backfire. There's really no good way to deal with GOP Trump if you're a Senate Republican candidate.

If Trump's there as an independent and you have someone like Rubio with the party nom, you can at least hitch your wagon to Rubio with little concern about it backfiring on you. And if you're a GOP senate candidate, you'll almost certainly end up getting the votes of the crazies voting for independent Trump anyway.

But I wouldn't classify Scenario #2 as good, because I think you'll still see a slightly- or moderately-depressed Republican turnout with Trump on the ticket as an independent.
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
Makai said:
America even dabbled in eugenics around the same time.
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Among other things.

Instead of being tried for war crimes, the researchers involved in Unit 731 were given immunity by the U.S. in exchange for their data on human experimentation.[10] Some were arrested by Soviet forces and tried at the Khabarovsk War Crime Trials in 1949. Americans did not try the researchers so that the information and experience gained in bio-weapons could be co-opted into the U.S. biological warfare program.[11]

Gold, Hal (2011). Unit 731 Testimony. (1st ed.). New York: Tuttle Pub. p. 97. ISBN 9781462900824.

Harris, S.H. (2002) Factories of Death. Japanese Biological Warfare, 1932—1945, and the American Cover-up, revised edn. Routledge, New York, USA.
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Fun times.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
yeah, Trump's not a fascist. Racist and xenophobic, yes, but fascism had actual ideological tenets, and Trump doesn't fill those. For instance, the conflation of the state and the nation and the exaltation of the individual through the state aren't exactly recurring themes in his speeches.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
Makai said:
America even dabbled in eugenics around the same time.
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Three generations of imbeciles are enough.

And 50 years later, North Carolina finally stopped forcibly sterilizing people and ten years after that Oregon shut down their Board of Eugenics.

And 80 years after Buck, California started involuntarily sterilizing female inmates.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Brawndo Addict said:
FDR actually did it but I don't recall Poligaf ever complaining about him being a Nazi. When they're on your 'team' they're just succumbing to racism or nationalist fervor, when they're on the other side they're Hitler 2.0.
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Or, I mean, we're mostly below 100 years old and so FDR is not really contemporary to our discussions? Like, this is kind of a dumb post, come on. Obviously the Japanese internment camps are terrible and wrong. Were you unclear on PoliGAF's position on that?
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Josh Earnest made a quip about Trump's hair in a presser today. (EDIT: Yesterday, actually.)

Mara Liasson was not impressed.

BuTqulr.gif


I agree with her that it was a boneheaded comment. I don't think the White House press secretary should be encouraging these sorts of cheap shots.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
I think that if your primary complaint about people calling Trump a fascist is that they're applying the word somewhat pejoratively rather than completely factually the issue might be that you're a language fascist.
 
M

Makai

Member
pigeon said:
Or, I mean, we're mostly below 100 years old and so FDR is not really contemporary to our discussions? Like, this is kind of a dumb post, come on. Obviously the Japanese internment camps are terrible and wrong. Were you unclear on PoliGAF's position on that?
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And yet we're fascinated with another politician from the same era. That's all he's saying.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
BertramCooper said:
I'd probably consider an independent Trump run "less bad" for Senate Republicans than a GOP Trump candidacy. I don't know if I'd classify it as good or helpful for them.

Senate Republicans are truly up shit creek with Trump as their standard bearer. They're going to have to pledge to support a truly loathsome presidential candidate (Rob Portman already has, actually), which could backfire badly, or they're going to have to break party unity and not support him, which could also backfire. There's really no good way to deal with GOP Trump if you're a Senate Republican candidate.

If Trump's there as an independent and you have someone like Rubio with the party nom, you can at least hitch your wagon to Rubio with little concern about it backfiring on you. And if you're a GOP senate candidate, you'll almost certainly end up getting the votes of the crazies voting for independent Trump anyway.

But I wouldn't classify Scenario #2 as good, because I think you'll still see a slightly- or moderately-depressed Republican turnout with Trump on the ticket as an independent.
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It makes sense if you look at it strictly in terms of vote count. The vast majority of voters vote straight ticket in presidential elections.

Running Trump at the top of the ticket would be disastrous. Crazy high negatives with moderate republicans, independents, and democrats means that democratic turnout will be abnormally high to support Hillary AND vote against Trump.

Running Cruz or Rubio isn't much better. None of the republican candidates are positioned to compete well with Hillary Clinton on any front. Barring an October surprise she takes the white house easily, and democrats take the Senate along with it, though by lesser margins than a Trump victory.

A third party run on the other hand means that moderate and establishment republicans still turn out in good numbers IN ADDITION to the crazies fired up for Trump. Neither one will take the white house but you may see abnormally high levels of participation from establishment republicans AND those on the Fringe that may not otherwise turn out.this is actually the best possible option for the GOP, since keeping control of house and Senate is arguably as big a win as the presidency for them
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Manmademan said:
A third party run on the other hand means that moderate and establishment republicans still turn out in good numbers IN ADDITION to the crazies fired up for Trump. Neither one will take the white house but you may see abnormally high levels of participation from establishment republicans AND those on the Fringe that may not otherwise turn out.this is actually the best possible option for the GOP, since keeping control of house and Senate is arguably as big a win as the presidency for them
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I could see some slightly low GOP turnout on account of the inevitability of the GOP presidential loss, though.

I don't think we're talking a massive depression in GOP turnout, but I think you'll still get some, "Ehh, fuck it, Hillary's gonna win anyways," types of GOP voters. And especially here in Ohio where no one is particularly enthusiastic about Rob Portman anyway.
 
R

Roland_Gunner

Member
Crab said:
yeah, Trump's not a fascist. Racist and xenophobic, yes, but fascism had actual ideological tenets, and Trump doesn't fill those. For instance, the conflation of the state and the nation and the exaltation of the individual through the state aren't exactly recurring themes in his speeches.
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Candidate Trump hasn't started with those things yet but does anyone doubt that if elected he would? A Trump Presidency would place far, far more focus on him as a person over specific policies Trump has repeatedly said that he would place specific capitalists in charge of key policy. Thats a gateway to the conflation of business and government.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
Roland_Gunner said:
Candidate Trump hasn't started with those things yet but does anyone doubt that if elected he would? A Trump Presidency would place far, far more focus on him as a person over specific policies Trump has repeatedly said that he would place specific capitalists in charge of key policy. Thats a gateway to the conflation of business and government.
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Our system is already far more institutionally corporatist than Trump could make it from appointing a few "capitalists" to public office.
 
B

Brawndo Addict

Banned
pigeon said:
Or, I mean, we're mostly below 100 years old and so FDR is not really contemporary to our discussions? Like, this is kind of a dumb post, come on. Obviously the Japanese internment camps are terrible and wrong. Were you unclear on PoliGAF's position on that?
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FDR is not contemporary to a discussion about the US putting racial minorities in camps for national security reasons but Hitler is? Come on, this is beyond pathetic. Why are we defending the lowest common denominator style of discourse here? What do we have left for people committing actual genocide when this is our standard of use?

That's to say nothing of people falling for the Facebook meme level garbage of Trump actually calling for Muslim internment camps. Have we lost our ability to substantively rebuke our opponents and think critically? Or are we just tired of taking the high road and want to get down in the mud with everyone else?

More to the point, do you consider FDR a Nazi or Hitler-esque? He actually did the very things you seem to suggest condones comparing Trump to Hitler. What about Truman who sanctioned immunity for Nazi/Japanese scientists guilty of war crimes in exchange for their knowledge/information? Why not compare Trump to them instead of Hitler unless it's just about insults?
 
B

BertramCooper

Banned
Isn't one of the general qualifiers of fascism a concerted effort to tear down the basic functions of democracy?

In that sense, you can't fully consider him a fascist until he's actually taken power and starts telling people we should get rid of this stupid Congress for not going along with his classy, luxurious plans.
 
M

Makai

Member
BertramCooper said:
Isn't one of the general qualifiers of fascism a concerted effort to tear down the basic functions of democracy?

In that sense, you can't fully consider him a fascist until he's actually taken power and starts telling people we should get rid of this stupid Congress for not going along with his classy, luxurious plans.
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Way too proud of his poll numbers for that.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
BertramCooper said:
Isn't one of the general qualifiers of fascism a concerted effort to tear down the basic functions of democracy?
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No. Fascism is true pure unfiltered democracy:
il duce said:
Grouped according to their several interests, individuals form classes; they form trade-unions when organized according to their several economic activities; but first and foremost they form the State, which is no mere matter of numbers, the suns of the individuals forming the majority. Fascism is therefore opposed to that form of democracy which equates a nation to the majority, lowering it to the level of the largest number; but it is the purest form of democracy if the nation be considered as it should be from the point of view of quality rather than quantity, as an idea, the mightiest because the most ethical, the most coherent, the truest, expressing itself in a people as the conscience and will of the few, if not, indeed, of one, and ending to express itself in the conscience and the will of the mass, of the whole group ethnically molded by natural and historical conditions into a nation, advancing, as one conscience and one will, along the self same line of development and spiritual formation. Not a race, nor a geographically defined region, but a people, historically perpetuating itself; a multitude unified by an idea and imbued with the will to live, the will to power, self-consciousness, personality.

In so far as it is embodied in a State, this higher personality becomes a nation. It is not the nation which generates the State; that is an antiquated naturalistic concept which afforded a basis for XIXth century publicity in favor of national governments. Rather is it the State which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity.

The right to national independence does not arise from any merely literary and idealistic form of self-consciousness; still less from a more or less passive and unconscious de facto situation, but from an active, self-conscious, political will expressing itself in action and ready to prove its rights. It arises, in short, from the existence, at least in fieri, of a State. Indeed, it is the State which, as the expression of a universal ethical will, creates the right to national independence.

A nation, as expressed in the State, is a living, ethical entity only in so far as it is active. Inactivity is death. Therefore the State is not only Authority which governs and confers legal form and spiritual value on individual wills, but it is also Power which makes its will felt and respected beyond its own frontiers, thus affording practical proof of the universal character of the decisions necessary to ensure its development. This implies organization and expansion, potential if not actual. Thus the State equates itself to the will of man, whose development cannot he checked by obstacles and which, by achieving self-expression, demonstrates its infinity.
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In rejecting democracy, Fascism rejects the absurd conventional lie of political equalitarianism, the habit of collective irresponsibility, the myth of felicity and indefinite progress.

But if democracy be understood as meaning a regime in which the masses are not driven back to the margin of the State, and then the writer of these pages has already defined Fascism as an organized, centralized, authoritarian democracy.
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H

hydragonwarrior

Member
You guys should stop helping the media take down Trump. Not yet anyway. Until he ruptures the crazies from the Repub base, it's better to wait till he's elected as the Repub candidate and THEN take him out.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Brawndo Addict said:
FDR actually did it but I don't recall Poligaf ever complaining about him being a Nazi. When they're on your 'team' they're just succumbing to racism or nationalist fervor, when they're on the other side they're Hitler 2.0.
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We did complain, it's in the Ancient GAF B.G. (Before Gore) archives. You need GAF Gold to access them.
 
benjipwns

benjipwns

Banned
I'm sure there's at least one PoliGAF posting and probably like twenty other postings in other threads where I called Wilson and FDR totalitarians.

And I know I've compared the New Deal to fascist economics.

The NRA was basically the same corporatist system as in Italy and Germany only slightly less union syndicate friendly.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
benjipwns said:
This is the worst appeal to authority ever.
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Probably because it's not one.

The same could be said for Obama's campaigns, and most all others. The 2008 campaign with both major parties was tinged with fascist trappings. Especially in terms of suppress the individual for the goal of better serving the state.
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Spoken like a true anarchist or whatever you call yourself.

Again, we're referencing the "other-izing" or certain racial/ethnic groups (Mexicans, immigrants, Muslims) as a tool to come to power. I specifically said how the campaign is being run in terms of rhetoric and honestly, I think it's pretty undeniable. To argue Obama or Romney did the same is absurd
 
Q

QuiteWhittle

Member
Supreme Court appears ready to shake up how election districts are drawn

The Supreme Court sounded poised Tuesday to order a significant shift in how political power is allocated in this country, one that could give more clout to rural and mostly Republican areas at the expense of Democratic-dominated cities.

The justices heard arguments in a Texas case that could force all 50 states to change the way they draw election districts for members of the House of Representatives, state legislatures, city councils and other local bodies.

At issue before the court was the basic question of who gets counted when election districts are drawn: Is it all people, including children, prisoners and immigrants who are not eligible to vote? Or is it only adult citizens who are eligible voters?

Throughout American history and in all 50 states, election districts have been drawn based on data from the U.S. Census, which counts all people who live in the area.

But the growing Latino population, particularly in states such as California, Texas and Florida, includes large numbers of people who are not citizens and cannot vote. That means in those states, election districts created to have equal numbers of people may not also have equal numbers of voters.

In the case heard Tuesday, two Texas Republicans who live in rural districts say they are denied the "equal protection of the laws" because the state's election districts undercount the votes of U.S. citizens and overcount those who live in districts with large numbers of immigrants.

Their lawyers said the court should clarify its "one person, one vote" rule, set in the 1960s, and tell states they should give "equal weight to equal numbers of voters."

The court's conservatives, including Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, appeared to agree with the challengers.
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More at the link.
 
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