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[SimpleDesign]

I really don't see what's the big deal, just give gays equal rights. What the fuck are the neo-con ultra christian assholes going to do about? If they resort to violence and domestic terrorism we should treat them just as the Bush administration treated external terrorists.

 

[krypt0nian]

Okay, I get that this is at hearts a civil rights and equality issue, but let's get real with the hyperbole. Trying to parallel the gay rights movement as equivalent to the black civil rights movement is offensive to the latter.

Not in my mind. I'm tired of those pointing it out so I'll just ignore it.

The parallels are very real and I'm done discussing it.

 

[mAcOdIn]

I completely disagree that he's wanting hetros to complain for gay people. That's what I was disagreeing with. I agree with Obama that gays should just keep pushing and voicing their opinions and pushing their congress people.

It's what all Presidents want when looking to sign new laws.

Lol, you just refuse to believe that Obama's not a great President and instead just a decent politician.

Let me put the whole debate in a different way.

First off lets acknowledge that between most of us here and Obama that gays have less rights than straight people. Right?

So the argument I get from people is that he has health care, economy, environment and 2 wars and not enough time to deal with gay rights. That's the argument right? You're saying it's an issue of priorities.

So here's what Obama apparently found more important than gay rights besides 2 wars, health care, the economy and the environment.
* Reversed restrictions on stem cell research.
* Signed an executive order reversing the ban that prohibits funding to international family planning groups that provide abortions. Gag rule revoked (Mexico City policy).
* Granted Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send money to Cuba.
* Ordered the release of nearly a quarter of a million pages of records from the Reagan White House that were kept from the public during a lengthy review by President George W. Bush.
* Restored funding for the Byrne Justice Assistance Grant (Byrne/JAG) program.
* Created a White House Office on Urban Policy.
* Increased funding for the NEA.
* Stop raids on medical marijuana dispensers.
* Cut funding for a proposed U.S. nuclear storage facility at Yucca Mountain.
These are just a few.

You're saying all of these are more important than gay rights?



You're right, Obama has done a lot, but I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning HIS priorities when it comes to this matter, I also don't think it's wrong to assume he couldn't do this at the same time as something else.

All of the list was taken from here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8498155#8498228

 

[maximum360]

Not until he does something significant re: gay rights. I mean besides blowing smoke up our asses.

Just start a thread on the topic and discuss it ad nauseum. The topic was novel 50 pages ago but not so much when repeated constantly. See Palin.

 

[krypt0nian]

Just start a thread on the topic and discuss it ad nauseum. The topic was novel 50 pages ago but not so much when repeated constantly. See Palin.

Do the same about the topics you guys discuss here. Open a new topic every time.


I just post new developments re: this topic. The whining here about this topic is telling.

I'll post about this every time I see some new development. Feel free to not click on it anymore.

 

[scorcho]

The parallels are very real and I'm done discussing it.

So homosexuals were once bought and sold by heterosexuals as plantation slaves? Homosexuals were once denied the right to vote? Homosexuals were hounded, murdered and suppressed by decades by violent secret militant groups like the KKK?

 

[ratcliffja]

So homosexuals were once bought and sold by heterosexuals as plantation slaves? Homosexuals were once denied the right to vote? Homosexuals were hounded, murdered and suppressed by decades by violent secret militant groups like the KKK?

While the first one isn't true, the second may be (or have been) true in other countries, and the third one DEFINITELY was and is true.

 

[scorcho]

While the first one isn't true, the second may be (or have been) true in other countries, and the third one DEFINITELY was and is true.

True in the superficial sense, but trying to equate it to the level of the KKK proves my point. It isn't.

And my point deals with the US, obviously.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

So homosexuals were once bought and sold by heterosexuals as plantation slaves? Homosexuals were once denied the right to vote? Homosexuals were hounded, murdered and suppressed by decades by violent secret militant groups like the KKK?

Oppress anyone and you are oppressing everyone.

I just don't get why they feel that being denied the right to marry is oppressive. That sounds like a right I never want to have in the first place.

But I think the concept of marriage is extremely flawed. I still don't get why marriage has been so romanticized given it's origins in daughter selling.

 

[krypt0nian]

So homosexuals were once bought and sold by heterosexuals as plantation slaves? Homosexuals were once denied the right to vote? Homosexuals were hounded, murdered and suppressed by decades by violent secret militant groups like the KKK?

Don't care. Enough parallels exist.

Two groups being denied civil rights. Two groups that had to go through a period of seperate but equal.

Those that get upset are playing a game of my struggle is more valid than yours and are not worth addressing.

 

[scorcho]

Fantastic point. I'm sold.

 

[krypt0nian]

Fantastic point. I'm sold.

Cool. Move along.

 

[Mumei]

So homosexuals were once bought and sold by heterosexuals as plantation slaves? Homosexuals were once denied the right to vote? Homosexuals were hounded, murdered and suppressed by decades by violent secret militant groups like the KKK?

No, no, yes.

I think that if you compare the history of gay oppression from the late Roman Empire till now, and you compare the history of black oppression from the start of the trans-Atlantic slave trade and the development of racist justifications for that till this point that neither comes off looking particularly rosier than the other.

And the parallels that he is talking about are parallels like marriage rights (which black people once did not have - the ability to marry each other, or white people), or anti-discrimination laws in housing and employment, and the like. He's also talking about the parallels between the arguments used by racists against black equality with the arguments used by today's bigots against gay equality - they are essentially the equivalent of palette swaps, with a few words being replaced, but the arguments remaining identical.

 

[WickedAngel]

.nvm, I can't take the bait.

 

[krypt0nian]

Source: Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.

"We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say 'common struggle' because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination."

I think I'll take her word over yours.

 

[scorcho]

Actually I wrote that before you edited your post with actual points. Now that I read your points I go back to my previous stance, which is :lol

Yeah, it's a civil rights, issue, but on TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEVELS. But hey, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Fantastic point. I'm sold.

Personally, I think marriage in any form should have nothing to do with government. To gain those government protections you should have to do a civil union. Marriage should be left to the religious nutcases that ignore it's past, and given no government benefits at all.

But that would take someone with the cajones and power to take on the biggest business the world has ever known. Christianity.

 

[krypt0nian]

Actually I wrote that before you edited your post with actual points. Now that I read your points I go back to my previous stance, which is :lol

Yeah, it's a civil rights, issue, but on TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LEVELS. But hey, ignorance is bliss.

Then give the worse struggle award to the black civil rights movement. Kudos!

Everyone who chimes in saying "hurr they're not the same" gets a huge laughing hippo from me.

 

[Shins]

Quit comparing your discriminated against dick sizes. As a heterosexual white male, I find it annoying when the rabble gets so rowdy. Don't worry: you're all still feared and hated equally by the people in any position to affect your futures.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Okay, I get that this is at hearts a civil rights and equality issue, but let's get real with the hyperbole. Trying to parallel the gay rights movement as equivalent to the black civil rights movement is offensive to the latter.

Some of the stupidest bullshit ever posted in PoliGAF.

Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood.

I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people.

For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people...Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement. Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.

Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.

*edit* semi-beaten by krypt0nian

 

[besada]

Okay, I get that this is at hearts a civil rights and equality issue, but let's get real with the hyperbole. Trying to parallel the gay rights movement as equivalent to the black civil rights movement is offensive to the latter.

It may be offensive to you, but I see plenty of parallels. You only miss them when you start claiming that the civil rights movement was about slavery, which it wasn't. The modern civil rights movement was about getting blacks treated as equal citizens, long after slavery had ended.

If you want to start comparing the history black and homosexual oppression throughout the entirety of history, I'm happy to do that with you, but you don't get to pretend that the modern civil rights movement was about slavery. It was about equal rights under the law for a particular group of citizens, just like the modern gay rights movement.

And plenty of the people at the heart of the original civil rights movement, including Coretta Scott King, seem to have no problem with the comparison.

 

[krypt0nian]

I'm certain scorcho has more cred than Coretta Scott King.

All discrimination is discrimination against all of us.

But some choose to play the game and pretend that the gay civil rights movement isn't a logical extension of the black civil rights movement.

Fishy huh?

 

[syllogism]

Didn't you already have this discussion some pages ago? How about taking it to the gay megathread

 

[Mercury Fred]

How about taking it to the gay megathread

No thanks. How about taking your backseat modding elsewhere?

 

[krypt0nian]

Didn't you already have this discussion some pages ago? How about taking it to the gay megathread

Feel free to not read it. I love how we're told to take it elsewhere. This is n Obama thread. There was a new development in the story. I and others commented on it. Only to be told to shut it down.

Fuck nah.

 

[Touchdown]

There's something about the Palin resignation thats not right. I have a feeling there's going to be something big coming out soon. Some sort of big scandal. I just have that feeling.

 

[water_wendi]

Didn't you already have this discussion some pages ago?

Maybe. So now if something has been discussed before its off-limits?

How about taking it to the gay megathread

How about no?

 

[mAcOdIn]

There's something about the Palin resignation thats not right. I have a feeling there's going to be something big coming out soon. Some sort of big scandal. I just have that feeling.

Nah, she's so crazy I bet it's exactly what she said.

She asked her kids for advice and took it.

 

[syllogism]

Maybe. So now if something has been discussed before its off-limits?


How about no?

It seemed like literally the same arguments and even King quotes

 

[water_wendi]

There's something about the Palin resignation thats not right. I have a feeling there's going to be something big coming out soon. Some sort of big scandal. I just have that feeling.

This is just my opinion of what ive heard.. i havent seen the press conference.. it sounds to me like a nervous breakdown. i will be surprised if she runs for office again.

 

[krypt0nian]

It seemed like literally the same arguments and even King quotes

That's because scorcho is the keeper of the levels of struggle.

 

[Mercury Fred]

It seemed like literally the same arguments and even King quotes

scorcho popped out with some fresh (old) ignorance, so the quote was served up.

 

[water_wendi]

It seemed like literally the same arguments and even King quotes

Its not our fault some people are dense.

 

[scorcho]

It may be offensive to you, but I see plenty of parallels. You only miss them when you start claiming that the civil rights movement was about slavery, which it wasn't. The modern civil rights movement was about getting blacks treated as equal citizens, long after slavery had ended.

If you want to start comparing the history black and homosexual oppression throughout the entirety of history, I'm happy to do that with you, but you don't get to pretend that the modern civil rights movement was about slavery. It was about equal rights under the law for a particular group of citizens, just like the modern gay rights movement.

And plenty of the people at the heart of the original civil rights movement, including Coretta Scott King, seem to have no problem with the comparison.

Beseda: civil rights issue I get, as I said multiple times in the past, but there is a huge gulf in the rights being asked

 

[Lelielle]

From wiki article:

Intersectionality is a theory which seeks to examine the ways in which various socially and culturally constructed categories interact on multiple levels to manifest themselves as inequality in society. Intersectionality holds that the classical models of oppression within society, such as those based on race/ethnicity, gender, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, class, species or disability do not act independently of one another; instead, these forms of oppression interrelate creating a system of oppression that reflects the "intersection" of multiple forms of discrimination

Like Black homosexuality, or a Jewish woman, stuff overlaps, it's about being anti- discrimination/pro equality/equity across the board.

I'm still kinda new to this stuff, but it doesn't seem like rocket science to see the connections

 

[krypt0nian]

Beseda: civil rights issue I get, as I said multiple times in the past, but there is a huge gulf in the rights being asked

Then next time you see a comment that triggers you like "back of the bus" you'll know not to act like a dufus.

In terms of being civil rights struggles the are equateable. No one said the were in every detail equivalent.

 

[Door2Dawn]

From wiki article:


Like Black homosexuality, or a Jewish woman, stuff overlaps, it's about being anti- discrimination/pro equality/equity across the board.

I'm still kinda new to this stuff, but it doesn't seem like rocket science to see the connections

No one is discriminating anybody.

Spoiler

Except Obama of course

 

[Mercury Fred]

Beseda: civil rights issue I get, as I said multiple times in the past, but there is a huge gulf in the rights being asked

Wait, what??

 

[besada]

Beseda: civil rights issue I get, as I said multiple times in the past, but there is a huge gulf in the rights being asked

In some of the rights, sure, because the gay rights movement didn't just pop into existence. It's already fought and won on many issues, including being discriminated against in the workplace, being discriminated against when buying or renting a home, etc.

The movement still has a ways to go, just as the black civil rights movement did even after the signing of the '64 Civil Rights Act.

Honestly, I can only guess that you have no idea of the level of discrimination that's been applied against homosexuals in this country over its history if you can't see parallels. The biggest difference is that homosexuals have usually been able to hide from the people who'd gladly beat and disrcriminate against them.

I find it bizarre, personally, that someone who benefited from the courageous actions of the civil rights workers (black, white, and other) wouldn't want the two movements linked, as one clearly grew from the other. It's all action leading to the same place -- equality for all people, something we supposedly all believe in.

 

[mAcOdIn]

equality for all people, something we supposedly all believe in.

We do, when our bellies are full and our wallets are fat.

 

[Door2Dawn]

We do, when our bellies are full and our wallets are fat.

The American way of life.

 

[besada]

We do, when our bellies are full and our wallets are fat.

My take on the issue comes straight out of the great socialist anthem The Internationale:
"Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all."

 

[scorcho]

I didn't bristle at the idea that the gay civil rights movement is an extension of the black civil rights movement - the transition from civil rights politics to identity politics is obvious. I just don't see the two as being directly equivalent. Biased by my education? Probably

 

[Mercury Fred]

I didn't bristle at the idea that the gay civil rights movement is an extension of the black civil rights movement - the transition from civil rights politics to identity politics is obvious. I just don't see the two as being directly equivalent. Biased by my education? Probably

I believe "insulting" was the word you used in reference to comparing the gay and black civil rights movements.

 

[scorcho]

I believe "insulting" was the word you used in reference to comparing the gay and black civil rights movements.

Yep. And?

 

[Mercury Fred]

Yep. And?

Oh, just checking to see if you're still clinging to this ignorant stance that one of the key leaders of the black civil rights movement vehemently disagreed with.

 

[krypt0nian]

Yep. And?

I find it insulting when people feel the need to distance them from one another.

I don't expect you to care. Just as I don't care if people are insulted when I use the back of the bus phrase.

I'm not in the game of measuring struggles.

 

[besada]

I didn't bristle at the idea that the gay civil rights movement is an extension of the black civil rights movement - the transition from civil rights politics to identity politics is obvious. I just don't see the two as being directly equivalent. Biased by my education? Probably

But we're not talking about identity politics, here, but rather civil rights for gays. Identity politics is about forcing acceptance of lifestyles in the public mind and culture, whereas we're discussing a civil rights issue regarding homosexuals -- specifically state recognition of marriage.

This IS a civil rights battle. The black civil rights movement didn't invent civil rights. Women had successfully argued for their own civil rights earlier than blacks did. Gay people are now demanding their civil rights, which isn't identity politics.

Hey, if you think identity politics is a giant waste of time, I'm not going to fight with you on that. I agree. You can't ever chant enough or march enough to make people accept you. You can, on the other hand, chant enough and march enough to force the state to abide by its own principles and treat you as an equal citizen.

 

[scorcho]

Oh, just checking to see if you're still clinging to this ignorant stance that one of the key leaders of the black civil rights movement vehemently disagreed with.

Since you're asking me now the answer is yes. I'm more than entitled to my opinion. It could change as I read a bit more background information, but on a qualitative level I just don't agree now

edit: when the fuck did I ever say that identity politics, or even the gay rights movement for that matter. was a waste? Way to misrepresent there bud

 

[Mercury Fred]

I'm more than entitled to my ignorance.

fixed