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Polygon article on JonTron and A Hat in Time (Humble Bundle ... (READ MOD POST)

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Gaardus

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Sep 2, 2015
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Game dev is very modular these days. You do things out of order (much like shooting a movie). To go back and resetup a scene while in the middle of working on another scene is something you do not want to do especially with 7 people.

How about replacing the recording not specifically seven months ago, but at any time during the past seven months?
 
Nov 26, 2015
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Game dev is very modular these days. You do things out of order (much like shooting a movie). To go back and resetup a scene while in the middle of working on another scene is something you do not want to do especially with 7 people.

Not a dev, but I don't think many people, at least on here would care if that one minor character only had text, no VA.

They could also release a statement, if it was solely a game development issue.

I do sympathize with the situation that Jontron has put them in, but I wish I could have some slight idea what they are thinking.
 

jviggy43

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Aug 27, 2016
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Man, I dislike this person as much as the next guy, but some people are just taking their hate to the extreme and looking ridiculous.

Yeah, some people are looking ridiculous for boycotting a product with someone who literally said minorities dilute the gene pool and have a predisposed proclivity to criminality. Not. Even. Close. In fact, the in the middle position looks far more ridiculous than those who chose not to buy the game, imo.
 
Game dev is very modular these days. You do things out of order (much like shooting a movie). To go back and resetup a scene while in the middle of working on another scene is something you do not want to do especially with 7 people.

He isn't playing this character in a live role that would require a reshoot, though. All they need to do is pay another voice actor to redub his lines & have those audio files play in place of his.
 

Rmagnus

Banned
Jan 31, 2017
1,027
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Not buying the game is one thing and understandable. But boycotting HB as a whole is hilariously petty and just a means to be angry that an entity doesn't want to drag out something that has already run its course.

A lot of the ones who are overreacting to all of this would be shocked, SHOCKED I tell you as to just how many things they would have to give up or boycott if all the stances of members on the entirety of said materials was made public.

It's hilarious seeing someone typing in all seriousness "the silence is speaking volumes", "Going to torch my Humble Account after this". The silence comes from knowing there are a lot of people out there that will be angry and pissy no matter what is said, and they are sitting like rabid dogs frothing at the mouth to pounce on any comment they make.

Like I said, to those people overreacting. DO NOT do research into things you don't want to give up. There is a good chance you will have to choose to be a hypocrite or lose access to useful/important things in your life.


Different people react to different ways. I am not the race Jon was talking shit about but it's horribly offensive to me and I got no issues boycotting anything he is involved and with the same logic the development team that chose to say nothing. There's nothing HB can do since they are just the publishers so yeah it's a bit much to boycott them but like I mentioned at the start of the post different people react differently. Let every small thing slide and eventually.. in gaming terms we started with armoured horse and moved to paid online services and we are now at loot boxes, when will gamers finally take a stand? Ok I am not making senSe and shld stop drinking...
 

Conkerkid11

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Aug 1, 2013
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Game dev is very modular these days. You do things out of order (much like shooting a movie). To go back and resetup a scene while in the middle of working on another scene is something you do not want to do especially with 7 people.



I agree with you. I wish they did this as well, but I can understand why they have not either. Again, the fear associated with armchair reactions destroying your lively hood seems much more immediate IMO than what could happen after making a statement.
Disagree with the first part of your post, but agree with the second.

I heard he voiced multiple characters, but I feel it would have been easy enough to replace the sound clips used for his dialogue with someone else.

Problem is that JonTron's fanbase would have been far more vocal than those currently opposed to their silence are.
 
Jul 28, 2014
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He isn't playing this character in a live role that would require a reshoot, though. All they need to do is pay another voice actor to redub his lines & have those audio files play in place of his.

Or they could just do what Nintendo does and just take some dude from the programming staff for a few hours.
 
Or they could just do what Nintendo does and just take some dude from the programming staff for a few hours.

It's not even just Nintendo; that's what most game companies did. It might be campy-sounding if you get a non-professional VA, but so did Jon's voice in the 1 clip I've heard (It sounded like was sarcastically reading his lines to someone else, mocking the lines directly, if that makes sense. The scene had no reason for the character to be sarcastic & the intonation didn't sound sarcastic to the player).
 

Yukinari

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May 11, 2015
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I'm not so sure what good a thread reboot is. You either flaunt your privilege and chose to ignore white supremacy and ethnic cleansing and what that means by buying the game, or you don't. I genuinely don't know what the line here is supposed to be from the moderation staff as to "insulting" others. Sugar coating that a bit? Asking them to please do better next time? Because minorities don't get to decide whether or not they will be told to throw themselves into an incinerator just for waking up in the morning. At the end of the day when you can't even keep yourself from buying a video game, you are part of the problem.


Anyways I just shared my opinion on the matter and I hope I didn't insult anyone too badly. I'm sure you'll be okay, you've got a new video game to play after all.

You knew exactly what you did with this post so im not surprised by the ban.

By the way Polygon should have asked Vinny first before using his stream footage on their article because otherwise you get people like this saying anybody who streams/bought the game supports white supremacy.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Jul 30, 2009
73,799
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I'm not so sure what good a thread reboot is. You either flaunt your privilege and chose to ignore white supremacy and ethnic cleansing and what that means by buying the game, or you don't. I genuinely don't know what the line here is supposed to be from the moderation staff as to "insulting" others. Sugar coating that a bit? Asking them to please do better next time? Because minorities don't get to decide whether or not they will be told to throw themselves into an incinerator just for waking up in the morning. At the end of the day when you can't even keep yourself from buying a video game, you are part of the problem.


Anyways I just shared my opinion on the matter and I hope I didn't insult anyone too badly. I'm sure you'll be okay, you've got a new video game to play after all.

I think it's understandable that somebody with an interest in the game itself won't be put off by JonTron's small role, regardless of how they feel about his inclusion. I think it's fine that somebody would choose to ignore the game in the interest of either doing their part to send a message to Gears that tacitly approving his awful beliefs by way of staying completely silent on the matter is not okay or refusing to support, to any degree, his work (or both). I don't think it's fair to paint with a very broad brush and insinuate that anybody and everybody who buys/has bought the game is a closet white supremacist or otherwise condoning white supremacy.
 

Azure Dream

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Compromise thought: If you're going to livestream the game, right after he reads his line, loudly proclaim "Fuck you Jontron" immediately after. None of Vinny's "See, the world didn't explode" bullshit.
 

Painguy

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May 24, 2014
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We're not exactly talking about a motion-captured sequence that takes 12 days at a render farm per single frame. On the technical side of it, they're replacing a single audio file. (If it really is just one line.) I can't check right now, but I think the NPC has a generic lip flap animation.

It has to be legal, IMHO. I guess returning his money isn't an option.

You certainly have a point, but these things can be deceivingly complex. People lacking technical experience often assume it's just a drag n drop matter when really there can be a lot of code involved. An example of something deceivingly simple is the button that opens a window in your car. I was told a story by an engineer who said his team had to write 5000 lines of code just for the button that makes your window go up and down.
 

Lowmelody

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Oct 31, 2013
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It's not even just Nintendo; that's what most game companies did. It might be campy-sounding if you get a non-professional VA, but so did Jon's voice in the 1 clip I've heard.

For real, a roomba would do better voice work.
 

Bridges

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Nov 15, 2016
851
1,303
615
USA
By not supporting a game that is, by all accounts, great but that is supportive of white nationalists, I am saying that I care more about opposing white nationalism (and racism in general) than I do about playing a fun game.

I think lots of people feel differently, and that is scary.

But the game itself isn't supportive of white nationalists?
This is a very "if you're not with me you're against me" mentality, isn't? The game is not supportive of white nationalists. JonTron himself isn't profiting from it, and as far as exposure goes I think his cameo will have very minimal (if any) impact on his subscriber numbers. I don't even think most non-backers would even know he was in the game if it weren't for the boycotts.

If the implication is that buying this game supports white nationalism then I completely disagree. If that is indeed the implication.
 
You should probably just not buy anything made by a large corporation ever again.

Games are a luxury item. It's not the same as having to buy a necessity from the company that offers the product at the cheapest price but for the shadiest reasons because your budget cannot afford it otherwise. Buying a video game is an absolute choice.

Plus, again, some of us are stuck in a situation where we bought the game off Kickstarter & the revelation they didn't remove the white supremacist in their game came far too late to request refunds.
 

whipihguh

Banned
Feb 11, 2014
818
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Rock Bottom
Not a dev, but I don't think many people, at least on here would care if that one minor character only had text, no VA.
One of the reviews of the game I watched even mentioned how inconsistent the VA was in parts of the game, with a character having a voice in one dialog box and the character right next to them in the same cutscene having no voice or sound at all. So it's not like simply cutting his voice would be out of place, either.

I agree with you. I wish they did this as well, but I can understand why they have not either. Again, the fear associated with armchair reactions destroying your lively hood seems much more immediate IMO than what could happen after making a statement.

I can see where some fear would be present, considering doxxing and other attacks in the past from these alt-right clowns. Then again, I don't think that's enough of an excuse, especially when their silence can easily imply acceptance of JonTron and his views.

One of the past developers mentioned in the last thread that their lack of condemnation is going to result in the alt-right and GamerGaters rallying and latching on to the company from this point forward, and that they'll have to appease them to avoid even greater wrath in the future. And I can't disagree with him, and with how awful the comments JonTron made were, saying nothing is saying something.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Feb 16, 2014
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Arlington Texas
It's not even just Nintendo; that's what most game companies did. It might be campy-sounding if you get a non-professional VA, but so did Jon's voice in the 1 clip I've heard (It sounded like was sarcastically reading his lines to someone else, mocking the lines directly, if that makes sense. The scene had no reason for the character to be sarcastic & the intonation didn't sound sarcastic to the player).

Nintendo still does with some minor rolls. The one who did the voice for Mario Maker, saying every item name was on the localization team. They just pitched his voice up and down a lot.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
May 10, 2006
22,644
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You should probably just not buy anything made by a large corporation ever again.

I would imagine if any employee of a large corporation came out and publicly endorsed white supremacy and genocide they would be promptly denounced and fired. James Damore got canned from Google for his stupid shit.

These guys aren't even willing to say "we don't condone his beliefs"
 

Painguy

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May 24, 2014
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How about replacing the recording not specifically seven months ago, but at any time during the past seven months?

Not a dev, but I don't think many people, at least on here would care if that one minor character only had text, no VA.

They could also release a statement, if it was solely a game development issue.

I do sympathize with the situation that Jontron has put them in, but I wish I could have some slight idea what they are thinking.
He isn't playing this character in a live role that would require a reshoot, though. All they need to do is pay another voice actor to redub his lines & have those audio files play in place of his.

I understand where you all are coming from, and if it really was a simple drag and drop matter I'd totes be with you all on this, but as I told another poster, it really isn't as simple as replacing an audio clip in many situations (especially for 7 inexperienced people). I think this is a very common (but understandable) misconception about game dev that people have. It of course is non of your faults, but I do think this reaction discourages devs from giving insight into what goes on and why it really is difficult. :)
 

Ferrio

Banned
Jun 7, 2004
56,365
1
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I would imagine if any employee of a large corporation came out and publicly endorsed white supremacy and genocide they would be promptly denounced and fired. James Damore got canned from Google for his stupid shit.

These guys aren't even willing to say "we don't condone his beliefs"

Would they remove all and every contribution he made to the company?
 

Speely

Banned
Oct 10, 2015
6,364
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0
Seattle, WA
But the game itself isn't supportive of white nationalists?
This is a very "if you're not with me you're against me" mentality, isn't? The game is not supportive of white nationalists. JonTron himself isn't profiting from it, and as far as exposure goes I think his cameo will have very minimal (if any) impact on his subscriber numbers. I don't even think most non-backers would even know he was in the game if it weren't for the boycotts.

If the implication is that buying this game supports white nationalism then I completely disagree. If that is indeed the implication.

If a person you are putting in your game is publicly a white nationalist ALL OVER THE INTERNET, it doesn't matter if your game is about combing fluffy kittens. By leaving them in your game, you are AT LEAST saying that you are ok with it enough to not put effort into addressing it.

Edit: And I refuse to support anyone who is unwilling to put that effort in.
 

Azure Dream

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Oct 30, 2004
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You certainly have a point, but these things can be deceivingly complex. People lacking technical experience often assume it's just a drag n drop matter when really there can be a lot of code involved. An example of something deceivingly simple is the button that opens a window in your car. I was told a story by an engineer who said his team had to write 5000 lines of code just for the button that makes your window go up and down.

Ok, but I actually do work in Unity, the engine A Hat in Time is made in. Unless they're doing something really extreme, swapping this audio file should not be a big deal. Especially if Jon only read the English dub line, and localized voices were handled by different actors.
 

VichoCardenas

Banned
Nov 2, 2015
319
0
0
So... this game took a decade to be made and now this is happening. I assume JT work is from an era when we didn't knew about the guy feelings but, c'mon. Really was looking forward to this game.
 

DominusLeges

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Mar 31, 2017
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I can't say I really understand why some racist bigoted moron having an incredibly minor voice acting part in a game is such a cause for uproar and concern. I don't see how having someone's vocal tracks in your title suddenly means you approve of or promote all of their controversial opinions and viewpoints.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Jul 30, 2009
73,799
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Ok, but I actually do work in Unity, the engine A Hat in Time is made in. Unless they're doing something really extreme, swapping this audio file should not be a big deal. Especially if Jon only read the English dub line, and localized voices were handled by different actors.

Not to nitpick, but Hat is a UE3 game (not that this affects your point).
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
Sep 22, 2005
12,696
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Maybe Gears is keeping this in their back pocket until they see what sales are like. If it bombs, they can release a statement saying they fully support jontron and SJWs tried to undermine them, then every alt right pajama Nazi will come out of the woodwork and buy a copy to support them.
 

Alucrid

Banned
May 30, 2009
46,834
0
0
Game dev is very modular these days. You do things out of order (much like shooting a movie). To go back and resetup a scene while in the middle of working on another scene is something you do not want to do especially with 7 people.



I agree with you. I wish they did this as well, but I can understand why they have not either. Again, the fear associated with armchair reactions destroying your lively hood seems much more immediate IMO than what could happen after making a statement.

Of course this narritive of mine is under the assumption they are in fact afraid. I hold this position because as far as I am aware they aren't messed up in the head like Jon, and so I give the benefit of doubt (which I always try to do, maybe to a fault)

i'm not a dev so i'll take your word on it being a fair amount of work. but i'm confused about your second point. it sounds like "armchair reactions" are from people who dislike jontron being in the game, so if that was their immediate fear, wouldn't it make sense for them to have made a statement to alleviate that as opposed to being afraid at who they would upset by doing so?
 

L Thammy

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Nov 4, 2012
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But the game itself isn't supportive of white nationalists?
This is a very "if you're not with me you're against me" mentality, isn't? The game is not supportive of white nationalists. JonTron himself isn't profiting from it, and as far as exposure goes I think his cameo will have very minimal (if any) impact on his subscriber numbers. I don't even think most non-backers would even know he was in the game if it weren't for the boycotts.

If the implication is that buying this game supports white nationalism then I completely disagree. If that is indeed the implication.

It's not a smoking gun, but it's a suspicious lack of prudence. If I worked in the same building as Jared Fogle and had no way of knowing about his child pornography thing, I would be telling everybody that I had no idea whenever he comes up. Because I really, really don't want to be associated with that, and I'm not going to take any chances letting people mistake me for being associated with that. I'm going to be assertive in order to prevent mistakes.

(Note: not a real life example. I don't even know if I've ever been in the same city as Jared Fogle.)

Same thing should apply here. You'd think Gears for Breakfast would really want to not be associated with white supremacists, and so would be eager to tell everyone that they aren't white supremacists.
 

Maffis

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Jan 2, 2010
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If a person you are putting in your game is publicly a white nationalist ALL OVER THE INTERNET, it doesn't matter if your game is about combing fluffy kittens. By leaving them in your game, you are AT LEAST saying that you are ok with it enough to not put effort into addressing it.

That is not fucking true at all. You, and other people, are ignoring the fact that this dev-team is 8 people strong. They have been working on this game for over 5 years, with probably thousands of dollars in debt. Just look at the interview with the Cuphead team (they were close to bankruptcy and homelessness). They not saying anything has nothing to do with them agreeing what that fucking POS said, but more about covering for their own families. If you remove Jontron, you will get a massive fucking hoard of gamer-gaters (racists, misogynists, antisemites all of it). Why would a team, with no proved record, and 8 people strong, risk their fucking lives for this?

It's not hard too understand.
 

mrlion

Member
Dec 30, 2012
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I understand that JonTron has said some very nasty things which caused quite the commotion. However, the way I see it, there are other people that worked pretty hard on this game. You money not only goes to him, it goes to everyone who poured their heart out. Their silence does cause a bit of skepticism, which in a way I understand why, but I find it silly to boycott the entire game just for one audio file. But as ModBot said, you have every right to do so, I just say all this so you are aware JonTron wasn't the one that made the game.
 

VichoCardenas

Banned
Nov 2, 2015
319
0
0
Maybe Gears is keeping this in their back pocket until they see what sales are like. If it bombs, they can release a statement saying they fully support jontron and SJWs tried to undermine them, then every alt right pajama Nazi will come out of the woodwork and buy a copy to support them.

Sadly, this wouldn't surprise me at all, just look at al the Neo-nazis living thanks to crowdfunding.
 

CookTrain

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Feb 10, 2013
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If a person you are putting in your game is publicly a white nationalist ALL OVER THE INTERNET, it doesn't matter if your game is about combing fluffy kittens. By leaving them in your game, you are AT LEAST saying that you are ok with it enough to not put effort into addressing it.

While obviously the best thing to do would be to make a statement about this whole mess and/or replace the voice sample with a dub (seriously, game dev is tricky, but this is a selection of short sound files that don't have to be lip-synced or re-subtitled or anything).

Unfortunately without that statement, it's hard to ascribe motive. We know there are unsavoury people on the internet and for certain if they make the move to denounce and replace, they'll earn that ire. That might just be twitter nonsense and shouty scumbags making some noise, but it's not like there's no precedent for harmful harassment and beyond as well.

The right thing is obvious to, the right thing is often not easy to do. They're obviously caught in a position where their decision will affect their livelihood one way or another and encountering some level of decision paralysis in such a situation isn't unheard of.

Hopefully they find their feet and speak up.
 

Rmagnus

Banned
Jan 31, 2017
1,027
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That is not fucking true at all. You, and other people, are ignoring the fact that this dev-team is 8 people strong. They have been working on this game for over 5 years, with probably thousands of dollars in debt. Just look at the interview with the Cuphead team (they were close to bankruptcy and homelessness). They not saying anything has nothing to do with them agreeing what that fucking POS said, but more about covering for their own families. If you remove Jontron, you will get a massive fucking hoard of gamer-gaters (racists, misogynists, antisemites all of it). Why would a team, with no proved record, and 8 people strong, risk their fucking lives for this?

It's not hard too understand.


It's not at all. Everything has a price including human decency.
 

Yoshimitsu126

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Jun 18, 2016
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Compromise thought: If you're going to livestream the game, right after he reads his line, loudly proclaim "Fuck you Jontron" immediately after. None of Vinny's "See, the world didn't explode" bullshit.

Yeah that was tactless of Vinny. Not sure why he thought that was a good move.
 
May 5, 2017
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I will vote with my wallet by not supporting this game; i refuse to support a game developer that is ok with open white supremacy and i can careless how much the devs spent on this game. If they really cared about jon trons comments they would have denounced them immediately
 

Painguy

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May 24, 2014
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i'm not a dev so i'll take your word on it being a fair amount of work. but i'm confused about your second point. it sounds like "armchair reactions" are from people who dislike jontron being in the game, so if that was their immediate fear, wouldn't it make sense for them to have made a statement to alleviate that as opposed to being afraid at who they would upset by doing so?

My bad, I should clarify. I'd say majority of reactions are perfectly fine, but there are always the vocal extreme minority who can use your words against you and spread misinformation that is potentially career ending. Mostly everyone on GAF has been pretty chill about it n just wanting a statement which I totes get. My post addresses those concerns with my (possible wrong and stupid :p) rational that they are afraid of the crazies that will try to ruin them no matter what they say. I hope that clarifies my position on this (which of course depends on a number of possible wrong assumption that I made hoping that the devs are actually nice people). anyway that's just my two cents not sure what else I can say tbh.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
Jul 30, 2009
73,799
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Oops, you're right. I even Googled it to be sure, I guess that explains the spotty results. Well, someone versed with UE can weigh in then.

Oh, I'm sure it's quite easy to replace an audio file in UE, too, and didn't mean to imply otherwise. I actually ninja-edited my post to clarify as much, but, evidently, wasn't fast enough, haha.
 

Conkerkid11

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Aug 1, 2013
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I would imagine if any employee of a large corporation came out and publicly endorsed white supremacy and genocide they would be promptly denounced and fired. James Damore got canned from Google for his stupid shit.

These guys aren't even willing to say "we don't condone his beliefs"
Chick Filet isn't going out of business anytime soon.
 

WrenchNinja

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May 29, 2009
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Assuming they are saying nothing out of fear, cowering at the threat of attacks from white supremacists to cater to them is not a good look either. This is I suppose more charitable than general apathy and hidden support of his statements.
 

Anung

Un Rama
Nov 13, 2013
11,650
3
505
Compromise thought: If you're going to livestream the game, right after he reads his line, loudly proclaim "Fuck you Jontron" immediately after. None of Vinny's "See, the world didn't explode" bullshit.

That "the world didn't explode" crap makes even less sense since not putting out these fires ages ago has lead us to the point now where nazism and white supremacy is running rampant. Not calling this behaviour out, holding them accountable and making an example of these people just normalises it.
 

Valen

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Oct 19, 2013
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I understand where you all are coming from, and if it really was a simple drag and drop matter I'd totes be with you all on this, but as I told another poster, it really isn't as simple as replacing an audio clip in many situations (especially for 7 inexperienced people). I think this is a very common (but understandable) misconception about game dev that people have. It of course is non of your faults, but I do think this reaction discourages devs from giving insight into what goes on and why it really is difficult. :)

Please stop.

I worked on the game. I got to know my colleagues in my time there. They are anything but amateurs. Several of them had worked on games released for consoles and PC in the past. They are talented and far from inexperienced. I still recognize that, even after they chose to stand with someone who wants me ethnically cleansed.

You're trying to paint them (and me) as a bunch of amateurs to prove your point and it's just hilariously and utterly wrong.

We used middleware - Unreal Engine 3. It facilitates much of the difficult, menial things for you. It isn't as difficult as you keep claiming.
 

Alucrid

Banned
May 30, 2009
46,834
0
0
My bad, I should clarify. I'd say majority of reactions are perfectly fine, but there are always the vocal extreme minority who can use your words against you and spread misinformation that is potentially career ending. Mostly everyone on GAF has been pretty chill about it n just wanting a statement which I totes get. My post addresses those concerns with my (possible wrong and stupid :p) rational that they are afraid of the crazies that will try to ruin them no matter what they say. I hope that clarifies my position on this. anyway that's just my two cents not sure what else I can say tbh.

it does, but i think there's really only one side with crazies who would try to ruin them. and while i get not wanting to poke the hornets nest i'd be hesitant in letting something i've worked so hard on be seen as a "win" by them

Please stop.

I worked on the game. I got to know my colleagues in my time there. They are anything but amateurs. Several of them had worked on games released for consoles and PC in the past. They are talented and far from inexperienced. I still recognize that, even after they chose to stand with someone who wants me ethnically cleansed.

You're trying to paint them (and me) as a bunch of amateurs to prove your point and it's just hilariously and utterly wrong.

We used middleware - Unreal Engine 3. It facilitates much of the difficult, menial things for you. It isn't as difficult as you keep claiming.

well that puts that line of thought to rest, thanks.
 

Yukinari

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May 11, 2015
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Yeah that was tactless of Vinny. Not sure why he thought that was a good move.

What does Vinny have to do to make things right? Make a statement? All because he chose to hand wave Jon and resume playing?

The only reason he brought it up is because hes known ever since the YL incident that the chat would go apeshit over anything related to Jon. He played YL as well.
 

watershed

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Mar 12, 2011
19,593
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I really wish the developers had put out a statement on JonTron's involvement and/or replaced his voicework with someone else's. This is one of those moments where I have to act on my convictions and not support a game because of who is involved in it. I really wish the devs had said something and in matters of race and politics, silence is deafening.
 
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