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Polygon article on JonTron and A Hat in Time (Humble Bundle ... (READ MOD POST)

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Jul 28, 2014
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Somehow, that's conflated with defending white supremacy, and you start personally attacking me as if i'm a white supremacist by association....

Isn't this EXACTLY what the modpost warns against?
I literally do not see anyone attacking you.
 
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Wow. I can only quote JonTron on things he's said, not things he didn't. I pointed out that the quote they were asking a citation for ("foreigners dilute the genepool") didn't exist and quoting it is misleading.

Somehow, that's conflated with defending white supremacy, and you start personally attacking me as if i'm a white supremacist by association....

Isn't this EXACTLY what the modpost warns against?



FFS. People need to calm down and take a step back from the computer.
No one "attacked" you as far as I can see.
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
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Canananada
Attacking you? People are asking you to reconsider your stance. You aren’t thinking this through clearly

We were talking about JonTron, then suddenly people were discussing what I must personally believe and suggesting I have some ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

Yes that is a personal attack. You literally said I'm defending white supremacy by debunking a quote. Another person suggested I agree with racism. Two other posts suggest im some sort of undercover neonazi. Jesus christ.
 

Oersted

Member
Mar 14, 2012
32,328
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Even if you are not able to read the very blatant meaning and implication of JonTrons words, his words are still unacceptable.

It is that simple.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
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We were talking about JonTron, then suddenly people were discussing what I must personally believe and suggesting I have some ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

Yes that is a personal attack. You literally said I'm defending white supremacy by debunking a quote. Another person suggested I agree with racism. Two other posts suggest im some sort of undercover neonazi. Jesus christ.

You are indeed literally defending white supremacy, I keep asking you to take a step back and consider why.

It is literally what you’re doing at this time
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Jun 10, 2004
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https://www.polygon.com/2017/3/14/14928506/jontron-youtube-immigration-controversy

He dug in yesterday with Twitch streamer Steven Bonnell II, also called Destiny, in a two-hour argument in which Jafari referenced long-held, far-right wing talking points such as a Mexican "reconquista" (the Mexican retaking, by mass immigration, of American land or culture), and the claim that even wealthy blacks in the United States commit more crimes than poor whites.

...

In the debate with Bonnell, Jafari suggests that the economic influence or benefit of immigration is something liberal academicians overstate, or that it goes unchallenged by people who don't want a fight with the politically correct. He argues that the U.S. should refuse immigrants from "incompatible places." Interestingly, Jafari's heritage is of Hungary and Iran; Iran is one of seven nations named in an executive order issued by President Donald Trump restricting immigration, and a revised one following a successful challenge to the first.

At the time, that was all I needed to hear.
 

Muffin1611

Banned
Jul 6, 2016
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We were talking about JonTron, then suddenly people were discussing what I must personally believe and suggesting I have some ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

Yes that is a personal attack. You literally said I'm defending white supremacy by debunking a quote. Another person suggested I agree with racism. Two other posts suggest im some sort of undercover neonazi. Jesus christ.

The quote isn't a real quote but sums up what he's saying accurately. That you're suggesting otherwise despite evidence to the contrary is indeed defending him. Asking you to think about that isn't attacking you.
 

Jawbreaker

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Mar 22, 2013
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We were talking about JonTron, then suddenly people were discussing what I must personally believe and suggesting I have some ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

Yes that is a personal attack. You literally said I'm defending white supremacy by debunking a quote. Another person suggested I agree with racism. Two other posts suggest im some sort of undercover neonazi. Jesus christ.

To be fair, your username is ... rather unfortunate.
 

Dice//

Banned
Jan 24, 2013
6,357
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dice9633.deviantart.com
Jon's been pretty out of the spotlight these days from what I can tell (he barely has any new episodes of just game-centric things); but has he come out saying anything new about his stance or apologize?
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
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Canananada
You are indeed literally defending white supremacy, I keep asking you to take a step back and consider why.

It is literally what you’re doing at this time

I am literally not. I am pointing out that that quote doesn't exist. That doesn't mean I agree with JonTron's other stances. I have already said elsewhere that it's racist and unacceptable.

I think you're the one who needs to take a step back if you accuse someone who doesn't agree with you of supporting white supremacy. When people say "we see you" and "We see what you're doing and why", suggesting I agree with racism or that I'm defending white supremacy, they are doing exactly what the mod warned against: impugning my character.

Why don't you check the thread title and see who this thread is supposed to be about.
 
Jul 28, 2014
13,406
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Yes that is a personal attack. You literally said I'm defending white supremacy by debunking a quote. Another person suggested I agree with racism. Two other posts suggest im some sort of undercover neonazi. Jesus christ.
You can be defending it without even thinking that it is, another post said you were downplaying the racism of the statement Jon was giving, and I don't think the "we see you" thing actually means people think you're an undercover neonazi.
 

Muffin1611

Banned
Jul 6, 2016
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I am literally not. I am pointing out that that quote doesn't exist. That doesn't mean I agree with JonTron's other stances. I have already said elsewhere that it's racist and unacceptable.

I think you're the one who needs to take a step back if you accuse someone who doesn't agree with you of supporting white supremacy. When people say "we see you" and "We see what you're doing and why", suggesting I agree with racism or that I'm defending white supremacy, they are doing exactly what the mod warned against: impugning my character.

Why don't you check the thread title and see who this thread is supposed to be about.

That you're saying the direct quote doesn't exist isn't the problem, it's this:

So I don't think "foreigners would dilute the gene" pool is a fair interpretation

Because it actually is a very fair interpretation when somebody tries to link criminality to a certain skin color and is then acting concerned about said skin color entering the gene pool
 

Gotdatmoney

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May 5, 2014
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Wow. I can only quote JonTron on things he's said, not things he didn't. I pointed out that the quote they were asking a citation for ("foreigners dilute the genepool") didn't exist and quoting it is misleading.

Somehow, that's conflated with defending white supremacy, and you start personally attacking me as if i'm a white supremacist by association....

Isn't this EXACTLY what the modpost warns against?

FFS. People need to calm down and take a step back from the computer.

The quoting is not misleading because there is a 2 hour discussion that adds total context to the quote. Nothing you are saying about misquoting is valid. The dude is talking about gene pool. Why do you think he is talking about brown people entering the gene pool. Why do you think he is saying you have to do it "slow"?

The entire context of the debate was "why should white people feel like a minority in their own country"?

You can not be arguing in good faith.
 
Nov 26, 2015
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Jon's been pretty out of the spotlight these days from what I can tell (he barely has any new episodes of just game-centric things); but has he come out saying anything new about his stance or apologize?

He made this unlisted apology video just after the controversy.

If I recall though, he blames the evil MSM for misrepresenting him, and SJW screeching. I recall when I watched it, feeling like he was more or less doubling down. I haven't seen it in 6 months though.
 

VichoCardenas

Banned
Nov 2, 2015
319
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Just came to say, god damn it I'm still sad and pissed about this. The game looks freaking fantastic and I could swallow up this before Odyssey arrives. It's so pretty.

Damn you, Jon.
 

L Thammy

Member
Nov 4, 2012
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As an aside, the "obviously the devs don't believe in this" line is a lot harder to swallow if you're a minority who is surrounded by people who aren't, I think.

There are so many people who use this sort of defense. Obviously I don't agree with this... but they put in no effort to showcase that aside from telling us that we should have assumed it. They give no reason for it to be obvious. We're just supposed to assume goodwill because they want us to assume goodwill.

It's particularly bad for people who enjoy "ironic" racism, because obviously they aren't actually racist, they're just telling a joke. Despite not having make it clear before that they don't believe the racist ideas they're spouting in their jokes. And telling you much later that, you know, there's actually truth to that though. And don't worry, it doesn't obviously apply to you, you're not like the rest of them.

The devs were working with a high octane racist, they didn't make even a token a statement when they presumably found out, they didn't make one when they were asked, they didn't make one when their ex-staff member make a statement, they didn't when their publisher did. How it is obvious that they aren't racist? What have they done to make that obvious? What evidence do I have that leads me to that conclusion?
 

guybrushfreeman

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Sep 19, 2012
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I am literally not. I am pointing out that that quote doesn't exist. That doesn't mean I agree with JonTron's other stances. I have already said elsewhere that it's racist and unacceptable.

I think you're the one who needs to take a step back if you accuse someone who doesn't agree with you of supporting white supremacy. When people say "we see you" and "We see what you're doing and why", suggesting I agree with racism or that I'm defending white supremacy, they are doing exactly what the mod warned against: impugning my character.

Why don't you check the thread title and see who this thread is supposed to be about.

No, trying to reinterpret those quotes in a nonsense way is absolutely defending him. You are trying to reframe his statements in a way that is simply not supported by the evidence in any way. No one asked you to do that, if fact you decided all on your own you’d better let everyone know that you interpreted the ‘gene pool’ comment in a way so charitable it’s rediculous. No one asked you to do that you chose to do it all on your own.

What Jon is saying isn’t realistically in dispute it’s backed up by countless tweets, public statements and 2 hours of interview footage.

He doesn’t need your reinterpretations of his statements. He made them quite clear repeatedly on a number of unique occasions.

There is no reason to play mental gymnastics to defend his statements. He made them quite clear repeatedly
 
Nov 11, 2014
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.


The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.

This reminds me of the scene from Django Unchained where Calvin Kandie learns that Alexandre Dumas is black. Or that famous picture of Goebbels after learning the person photographing him was Jewish. Like, "oh, you do this thing that's really cool and I admire that. Wait, you're from a group of people I irrationally hate? WELL FUCK YOU THEN." Bigotry is the abandonment of rational thought.
 

HotchieMotchie

Neo Member
Jun 5, 2017
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He made this unlisted apology video just after the controversy.

If I recall though, he blames the evil MSM for misrepresenting him, and SJW screeching. I recall when I watched it, feeling like he was more or less doubling down. I haven't seen it in 6 months though.

Yeah, that video is less of an apology and more of a series of excuses. He keeps claiming that he was taken out of context, that it was the heat of the moment, that media sites are trying to make him look worse than he was for clicks, etc.

Basically, not a real apology. I think he even uses "I'm sorry if you were offended," which is always code for "I'm not actually sorry."
 

Brandon F

Well congratulations! You got yourself caught!
Jun 7, 2004
21,120
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The fuckery here is astounding - if the dev leads are not racist, there has to be some legal reason they're saying nothing and choosing to alienate even an ex-employee.

Their lack of response seems to be their response at this rate.

EDIT:

Definitely worth contacting Polygon, yeah.

Nothing but assumption at this point.

Inaction is cowardice though. That will have consequences or potentially worse as they will learn. It is entirely in their interest and responsibility to uphold the brand, messaging, reputation, and marketability of their product by releasing a simple-worded public statement. Even if there was a legal justification, that could be made public and any legal authority would step up to represent said requirement.

By doing nothing they are essentially granting the public discourse permission to lead the conversation(and no legal authority would allow this outside of the most spurious reasoning).

If anything its just as disrespectful to the work and effort their employees and investors have poured their time and money and heart into. It's irresponsible to their own interests.
 

How About No

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In the context in which it was said, he was arguing that if it was done slowly enough, there would be no shift in culture, because they would slowly integrate into the existing gene pool. He also said afterward that he would be fine if whites became a minority when "100 million brown people" immigrated but "assimilated to the culture immediately" (quoting Destiny). So I don't think "foreigners would dilute the gene" pool is a fair interpretation, and completely misleading as a direct quote.

You ate attempting to rationalize racism. Ffs STOP
 

Lowmelody

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Oct 31, 2013
1,964
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.


The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.

Man absolutely fuck Gears for Breakfast and Jon Tron. Crash and burn.
 

L Thammy

Member
Nov 4, 2012
15,041
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It's also worth highlight JonTron's unprompted use of the term "founding stock" in regards to humans. "Stock" in this sense is an animal breeding term, which should tell you plenty about how he views the human race. With animal breeding, you're trying to control breed out unfavourable traits while strengthening favourable ones. Put that together with his talk about black crime and immigrants intermingling.

Although, honestly, I think animal breeding is a little more accepting of diversity, considering that you want to have different breeds of dogs and different breeds of horses for particular roles. I don't think JonTron's suggested that he's interested even in that.


Essentially what the argument boils down to is that blacks are less fit for society (i.e. inferior) and so they should either be removed from society or have their traits bred out, replaced with the more fit (i.e. superior) traits of the founding white stock.

Also, while I was trying to dig out this tweet (don't have these things saved) I also bumped into these again:


Poor guy, keeps getting all misinterpreted by mean Internet people.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
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No, trying to reinterpret those quotes in a nonsense way is absolutely defending him. You are trying to reframe his statements in a way that is simply not supported by the evidence in any way. No one asked you to do that, if fact you decided all on your own you’d better let everyone know that you interpreted the ‘gene pool’ comment in a way so charitable it’s rediculous. No one asked you to do that you chose to do it all on your own.

What Jon is saying isn’t realistically in dispute it’s backed up by countless tweets, public statements and 2 hours of interview footage.

He doesn’t need your reinterpretations of his statements. He made them quite clear repeatedly on a number of unique occasions.

There is no reason to play mental gymnastics to defend his statements. He made them quite clear repeatedly

Cosigned, what good does arguing JonTron's innocence do? He's had plenty of opportunities to rectify his statements and he's doubled down time and time again.

In a social climate where we have several threads a day about racial injustice and overt racism in 2017, in a time where white supremacy, racial trolling, and the alt right are rapidly causing concern in society---issues that need stern and absolute counter actions to even begin to neutralize the viral threat of the alt-right---when you are clearly misstepping on the taste and goodwill of other posters and offered many chances to lay off---why are we arguing the semantics of JonTron's backwards and hateful rhetoric. Like any pause towards racial equality is harmful as hell.
 
Nov 26, 2015
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Aaron Strife

Banned
Oct 10, 2006
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Jon tweeted at Neil Cicierega (creator of those Potter Puppet Pals videos) I believe shortly after his debate with Destiny:



I sometimes wonder if he’ll ever have that “holy shit, am I the bad guy?” moment of truth. Burning every single bridge with anyone in the industry who’s not an asshole has to do something for you, right?

A friend of mine showed me his newest video the other night and I have to admit, he’s got chops. Which makes it worse to me that he’s such of a useless piece of shit.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
4,523
1
1,550
Los Angeles
Jon tweeted at Neil Cicierega (creator of those Potter Puppet Pals videos) I believe shortly after his debate with Destiny:



I sometimes wonder if he’ll ever have that “holy shit, am I the bad guy?” moment of truth.

A friend of mine showed me his newest video the other night and I have to admit, he’s got chops. Which makes it worse to me that he’s such of a useless piece of shit.

No, he won't. That's the entire issue with the alt-right/dark enlightenment/neoreactionary movement. They take a hard-line stance that sympathy/empathy has gotten to a point of overencumbering society. In their mind's eye they are doing righteous work in progressing society past 'social justice warriors' sensitivity to logical reasoning.

Just read Mencius Moldbug or Nick Land or any of that ridiculous edge-lord shit. Like the conclusions they jump to from debating an overly PC culture is insane. Look at their takes on monarchies, how they perceive east-asia---especially women, genetic disposition for intelligence, and their overall shitty rhetoric that has blatant disregard for good grammar and spelling style.

Just a really morally bankrupt and disgusting stance all around.
 

L Thammy

Member
Nov 4, 2012
15,041
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That's a good one. I bet PewDiePie could have used that defense too. "uh actually i was commenting about pre-censorship. you are just oversimplifying my screaming an ethnic slur at my friend over a video game"
 

pinkurocket

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Jun 17, 2014
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See I agree that any product that has a team of people working on it, might have at least one person with awful views. Any workspace probably has people like that. It becomes a problem when the person is a public personality that continuously shares their toxic ideologies with the world.

I don't need to know all the things Jon has said and how awful they all are. That's not even the point. He is a controversial personality and the developer being silent throughout all these discussions is what's hurtful. I don't think they should be forced into picking a side, because whatever they decide is gonna receive a backlash from the other side. However just pure silence is really disappointing.
 

L Thammy

Member
Nov 4, 2012
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See I agree that any product that has a team of people working on it, might have at least one person with awful views. Any workspace probably has people like that. It becomes a problem when the person is a public personality that continuously shares their toxic ideologies with the world.

I don't need to know all the things Jon has said and how awful they all are. That's not even the point. He is a controversial personality and the developer being silent throughout all these discussions is what's hurtful. I don't think they should be forced into picking a side, because whatever they decide is gonna receive a backlash from the other side. However just pure silence is really disappointing.

When one side is defending white supremacy in a time when it is on the rise and has caused loss of life as a result, I'm not so worried about them being "forced into picking a side" in that sense. I'm not going to give someone a pat on the back for fencesitting between basic human decency and the peak of human monstrosity.

But if you mean that they shouldn't have been put in a situation where they're forced into a picking a side, I do agree. This turn of events have certainly been unfortunate for everyone. Both the specifics that Gears for Breakfast faces and the greater world events that these are taking place during. But while it's unfortunate, that's the reality we all exist in, and we all have to deal with that reality.
 
May 10, 2013
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.


The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.

I thought he did the voice of a penguin?

he voiced more than 1 character?

edit: forgot to say how awesome you have done with that model idle animation.
 

fvng

Member
Sep 25, 2012
6,100
169
710
You're allowed to boycott the game. You're allowed to not boycott the game. You're allowed to engage with people who explain their reasoning. You're not allowed to yell at or impugn people because they don't take the same position as you. You're not allowed to throw personal insults.

Word
 

L Thammy

Member
Nov 4, 2012
15,041
2
0
I thought he did the voice of a penguin?

he voiced more than 1 character?

edit: forgot to say how awesome you have done with that model idle animation.

The penguin was in the demo and it was switched to an owl for the final game, if I'm not mistaken.
 

The_Kid

Member
Jan 8, 2015
1,176
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I take a different view on this from say, supporting Jontron's channel, where he is the only draw. Here there are a number of different elements coming together to form a product, with Jontron being just a small part of that product from before all this happened ( I assume his character isn't that essential like in Yooka Laylee). I'm not going to judge someone harshly because they don't want to skip a game as to not support a minor voice actor attached to that project.

At the same time, I probably won't be buying it. I'll admit I still find Jontron funny, but I still think it's a good idea not to give him support on his channel.

The higher ups should definitely comment on it at the very least.
 
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