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Polygon article on JonTron and A Hat in Time (Humble Bundle ... (READ MOD POST)

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How About No

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May 29, 2009
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.


The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.

...

:|

This, and what you've posted before are fucked

Yeah I can't support this game

God this is such a huge disappoinment

(On a lighter note yay fellow Blender user!)
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
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As far as I can tell everyone in this thread understands his views and what they represent. Yes people will unfortunately unknowingly buy this product, they shouldn't be blamed for that.

It's on the dev to own up responsibility whether they decide to acknowledge they are supporting a racist.

I didn't see anybody here arguing that purchasers should be mocked. I see a lot of people here that are upset that the developers aren't commenting on a serious gripe people have with one of their employees actively partaking in hateful rhetoric.
 

Gotdatmoney

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May 5, 2014
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It's crazy to me that like every other industry wouldn't have a problem officially commenting that JonTron's comments are horse shit but in gaming apparently saying white supremacy sucks is too devasting to sales. For that reason I do hope this game bombs. Grow a fucking spine Gears for Breakfast.
 

JBourne

maybe tomorrow it rains
Jan 9, 2013
8,931
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.


The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.
I'm sorry, man. Can't imagine how shitty this must feel.

The JT stuff is the first thing I heard about this game, which made it an instant no-go for me. There are too many amazing games out there for me to bother with anything from this dev.
 

CecilRousso

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Jun 29, 2008
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As far as I can tell everyone in this thread understands his views and what they represent. Yes people will unfortunately unknowingly buy this product, they shouldn't be blamed for that.

No, they shouldn't.

That's what I don't care for, people buying the game, getting the "howcan you support this game because of this?!!", not knowing who the guy even is, and with his involvment not changing anything about him. The lecturing that will inevitably come whenever the game is discussed.

But people should push for the devs to comment it, and either act, or let people know why they won't act.
 

erlim

yes, that talented of a member
Aug 22, 2005
4,523
1
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No, they shouldn't.

That's what I don't care for, people buying the game, getting the "howcan you support this game because of this?!!", not knowing who the guy even is, and with his involvment not changing anything about him. The lecturing that will inevitably come whenever the game is discussed.

But people should push for the devs to comment it, and either act, or let people know why they won't act.

Well, whatever the case, I hope gaming journalism picks up on this and makes it well known to the purchasers that there's a proverbial monster in the house.
 

TI82

Banned
Aug 28, 2014
8,724
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...

:|

This, and what you've posted before are fucked

Yeah I can't support this game

God this is such a huge disappoinment

(On a lighter note yay fellow Blender user!)

What did he post before? Was it the stuff about Mecha the slag being a turd and doxxing people?
 

How About No

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May 29, 2009
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What did he post before? Was it the stuff about Mecha the slag being a turd and doxxing people?

I was one of the very few 3D artists on the team who was entirely self-taught. And because I was self-taught, my skillset was very broad - I had never limited myself to learning solely to what a college curriculum would teach you. I had taught myself anything and everything if it was something I needed for a personal project. And one of those happened to be morph target animation. I happened to have had learned it for a project I'd made years before.

It just so happens that my colleagues, some of whom had actually studied game development and 3D art in a professional college setting (unlike me), were either not taught these things in their school, or they had picked a concentration/major that didn't require learning it. That doesn't make them amateurs. They were very good at the things they were hired to do. Animation was not one of those things for most of them. At the time I was in the team, I was 1 of only 2 animators.

I am not in communication with the team anymore. I left the team on good terms, but it was so long ago. I don't expect they'll want to speak to me after all this. I'm okay with that though. Speaking out against racism doesn't exactly make you popular in this industry. It's in part why I left.

and

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=251102798&postcount=79
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
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You know the irony of all this -

JonTron's new voice role in the game is actually a character I rigged and animated.
(Snip)
The character he voices was literally made possible by someone he thinks should be removed from the gene pool.

I’m really sorry. That must be really hard to deal with.
 

ramoisdead

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Feb 21, 2013
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And this, much earlier.

Just want to add that I, one of the artists who worked on the game (and one of the few POC to have done so), released a statement back in April condemning Jontron.
https://epigallo.tumblr.com/post/159103022899/on-jontron-and-racism

The company ignored me, of course. Although I had left the company 2 years before, on good terms, I hadn't been involved with its development since. I assume a few of the current artists on the team may have also wanted to speak out, but remained quiet out of fear of losing their job.

The team is majority white European. This is why diversity is so important. When you have a team that primarily comes from very homogenously white countries, where racism is probably something they've never personally encountered, you end up with blind spots. The creator of the game probably isn't a racist, but from his silence, we can infer that he still may not quite grasp the seriousness of what JonTron has said. (And what he said was absolutely reprehensible - for those who need a reminder.)

I can't tell if we are allowed to talk about this anymore - I see some people still mentioning JonTron who haven't been banned, but others who have. If this post gets me banned, so be it. I couldn't find any other thread that was still open about the game. I don't really visit NeoGAF anymore - just logged in for the first time in many months to let people know that not all of us who worked on the game are okay with actual white supremacist JonTron. At all. At least, I'm not.
 

Muffin1611

Banned
Jul 6, 2016
3,818
0
0
Somebody is asking me to prove this Jontron "foreigners dilute the genepool" quote. Does somebody have a link to the destiny video with the correct timestamp?
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
0
0
Canananada
The fact that you know your co worker is a racist white supremacist nut job but you just decide to keep quiet about makes you a sympathiser IMO but hey feel free to post most gifs it takes less effort after all.

If you're not with us, you're a racist white supremacist sympathiser!

You may not be a white supremacist for supporting this game, but continuing to support a game while a vocal white nationalist appears in it means that you don’t think it’s *that* big of a deal

You might not support white supremacy but you’re definitely not opposing it

Or... you're opposing it in a meaningful way in the real world, rather than by demanding that an indie studio pay back money to JonTron because he said racist things, thereby enriching him.

Even if they aren't able to take JonTron's voice out due to some legal or financial circumstance, it should be the simplest thing to just say "we don't support this guy's beliefs". Saying that you don't support Nazism should not be a controversial position.

I think it's pretty obvious to most people that having a few lines in a game that were recorded before the voice actor said anything racist doesn't mean they support his beliefs. Hell, employing ANYONE for ANYTHING doesn't mean you support their beliefs and it's a common disclaimer on any journalistic site with opinion articles and Twitter bios.

Releasing a statement would serve no purpose. Those who are angry about this would likely say "that's not enough!" and still not buy it, and the whole thing would blow up even more.

I hope they stick with their approach and remain silent so this blows over as quick as possible. There's nothing ideal that can be done at this point.
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
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Somebody is asking me to prove this Jontron "foreigners dilute the genepool" quote. Does somebody have a link to the destiny video with the correct timestamp?

It’s in the original thread on the issue. I don’t exactly carry timestamps on me. The direct quote is in answer to a question about if people were intergrated into society could Jon support them? (Paraphrase) to which he replies “well, they would still be diluting the gene pool (or) they would still dilute the gene pool”

You’ll find the time stamp in original thread along with clips from the interview
 

L Thammy

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Nov 4, 2012
15,041
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I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

"Because you have problems that interest nobody,
because you have fear of intimacy you are a fascist.
You don't have to project your self-hate on others,
so nobody notices what a lovely man you are ... ohhh...

Your violence is only a silent cry for love,
your combat boots long for tenderness,
you have never learned to articulate yourself,
and your girlfriend never has time for you ... ohhh.
Asshole, asshole, asshole!"


I think it's pretty obvious to most people that having a few lines in a game that were recorded before the voice actor said anything racist doesn't mean they support his beliefs. Hell, employing ANYONE for ANYTHING doesn't mean you support their beliefs and it's a common disclaimer on any journalistic site with opinion articles and Twitter bios.

Releasing a statement would serve no purpose. Those who are angry about this would likely say "that's not enough!" and still not buy it, and the whole thing would blow up even more.

I hope they stick with their approach and remain silent so this blows over as quick as possible. There's nothing ideal that can be done at this point.

I think you start to lose the benefit of the doubt when you ignore this question even as it's repeatedly asked of you, as your publisher responds to it, and as your ex-employee responds to it. It may be a "you're not with us you're against us" position, but you're not even with the people closest to you.

Additionally, several people in this thread have noted that they can perfectly understand if there's some reason they can't practically remove JonTron's voice, or it isn't worth it for them, and that a statement itself is acceptable.
 
Nov 26, 2015
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Somebody is asking me to prove this Jontron "foreigners dilute the genepool" quote. Does somebody have a link to the destiny video with the correct timestamp?

It's one of those things where if you listen to the whole debate, he's trying to to hold back on his most heinous views, but it's clear where he's arguing from and to what purpose.

The exact quote is

Destiny: So what if whites became the minority but most brown people assimilated to the culture. Would that be okay then?

Jafari: Yeah, but if they assimilated, they would enter the gene pool eventually and would just... you know..
Timestamp

He also very clearly argues that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime. When Destiny confronts him on why he thinks black people commit more crime, he cites crime rates in Africa as evidence that black people are more likely to be criminals or something. There is very little wiggle room on that take, because there is no connection between American black people and people living in Africa besides skin color.

Destiny: The problem is young black men in the United States are disproportionately born to single mother households which is a leading indicator of crime. They're also disproportionately born into ghettos and low-income housing areas. They have access to worse education, okay? They're born into horrible socio-economic conditions. All of these things are massive contributors to being a criminal as you grow up. When you control for socio--

Jafari: But you are making the argument that it's white people that put them in those situations.

Destiny: Because they kind of, sort of, did over the past two hundred years. They kind of brought them over as slaves. They kind of bred them a certain way. They kind of red-lined them and gentrified them out of certain neighbourhoods and certain communities. They kind of legally discriminated on them and put them all in certain areas for a long time. They kind of disproportionately policed them and sentenced them to higher crimes in the courts and whatnot. White people have contributed a lot to this.

Jafari: So I suppose that's why the crime rates are pretty consistent across Africa, too?
Timestamp
 

UltraJay

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May 8, 2015
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It would be really easy to remove him from the game. The character had already changed for some reason. If I didn't know who I was looking for I wouldn't have recognised him - his shades-wearing penguin from the beta was much more obvious. The voice... isn't good. I would have been fine with the guy who does the voice for literally every other owl in the game.

The funny thing is that the receptionist owl's lines don't sound as crisp as other voiced lines.
Snatcher is the best.
I think Jon recorded the lines himself.

I think his character may have been changed because those penguins are much more present in the game now. Their new voice is great.
 

Bakercat

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Feb 3, 2015
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I just watched a video review of the game and thought it looked pretty good. Then after coming back to the forum and seeing this thread I don't plan on supporting this game even if it looks amazingly good. Even a simple explanation of we can't really do anything due to some difficulties, but wholeheartly disagree and oppose JT's views and opinions would make things look better. However, reading the post of the animator on the project and what he knows makes even that not enough it seems. Shitty situation all around and the company is all to blame for this shitshow.
 

guybrushfreeman

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Sep 19, 2012
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It's one of those things where if you listen to the whole debate, he's trying to to hold back on his most heinous views, but it's clear where he's arguing from and to what purpose.

The exact quote is


Timestamp

He also very clearly argues that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime. When Destiny confronts him on why he thinks black people commit more crime, he cites crime rates in Africa as evidence that black people are more likely to be criminals or something. There is very little wiggle room on that take, because there is no connection between American black people and people living in Africa besides skin color.


Timestamp

Thanks for digging it up
 

excelsiorlef

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Sep 20, 2014
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525
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If you're not with us, you're a racist white supremacist sympathiser!



Or... you're opposing it in a meaningful way in the real world, rather than by demanding that an indie studio pay back money to JonTron because he said racist things, thereby enriching him.



I think it's pretty obvious to most people that having a few lines in a game that were recorded before the voice actor said anything racist doesn't mean they support his beliefs. Hell, employing ANYONE for ANYTHING doesn't mean you support their beliefs and it's a common disclaimer on any journalistic site with opinion articles and Twitter bios.

Releasing a statement would serve no purpose. Those who are angry about this would likely say "that's not enough!" and still not buy it, and the whole thing would blow up even more.

I hope they stick with their approach and remain silent so this blows over as quick as possible. There's nothing ideal that can be done at this point.

The only reason he's in the game is because he's a famous YouTuber
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
0
0
Canananada
Somebody is asking me to prove this Jontron "foreigners dilute the genepool" quote. Does somebody have a link to the destiny video with the correct timestamp?

He never said that. The link provided by CannonFodder52 indicates that he meant they would enter the gene pool and *integrate*, not dilute. Destiny even said, "what, become white?!"
 

sotojuan

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Jul 10, 2017
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I'll never understand why someone who relies on ad revenue and sponsorships would say stuff like that in public (let alone actually believe that stuff, of course).
 

Ketkat

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Jun 1, 2014
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280
He never said that. The link provided by CannonFodder52 indicates that he meant they would enter the gene pool and *integrate*, not dilute. Destiny even said, "what, become white?!"

Oh please. What do you think he was implying there besides that?
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
0
0
Canananada
I think you start to lose the benefit of the doubt when you ignore this question even as it's repeatedly asked of you, as your publisher responds to it, and as your ex-employee responds to it. It may be a "you're not with us you're against us" position, but you're not even with the people closest to you.

Additionally, several people in this thread have noted that they can perfectly understand if there's some reason they can't practically remove JonTron's voice, or it isn't worth it for them, and that a statement itself is acceptable.

Most people are saying it wouldn't be enough, as the post 3 down from yours does. And I suspect even a number of people who have expressed that they wish there were a statement would then shift the goalposts if that statement were issued and demand the removal of the voice. That would be a very natural reaction if you see that you're getting traction, to ask for more.
 

necrosis

Member
Aug 6, 2013
2,352
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0
I'm fully behind individuals and companies not apologizing for their stupid remarks or actions. Especially as a lot of it is extremely petty these days. I think it gives a select group of people too much "power" to be able to pressure someone into an apology, fighting hate with hate is just hypocritical and doesn't make you better than them, even if you're morally correct. Beat them with kindness.

"extremely petty" remarks like telling feminists they have no foundation for their beliefs because they don't have to wear hijabs and suggesting that people of color are genetically predisposed to crime

no, jontron can get fucked. assuming gears for breakfast refuses to remove him from their game, i hope they enjoy people pirating the shit out of it
 

guybrushfreeman

Unconfirmed Member
Sep 19, 2012
3,929
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He never said that. The link provided by CannonFodder52 indicates that he meant they would enter the gene pool and *integrate*, not dilute. Destiny even said, "what, become white?!"

Please don’t do this. He’s explaining why he feels they are not acceptable even if they integrate into society. That it would be unacceptable to him for them to enter the ‘gene pool’ at all. It’s very clear what he’s saying in the interview
 

Gotdatmoney

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May 5, 2014
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He never said that. The link provided by CannonFodder52 indicates that he meant they would enter the gene pool and *integrate*, not dilute. Destiny even said, "what, become white?!"

Lol I listened to that whole debate and you're using some funny interpretations here. Hint: We see you.
 

Wrestlemania

Banned
Oct 7, 2005
4,352
0
0
Most people are saying it wouldn't be enough, as the post 3 down from yours does. And I suspect even a number of people who have expressed that they wish there were a statement would then shift the goalposts if that statement were issued and demand the removal of the voice. That would be a very natural reaction if you see that you're getting traction, to ask for more.
Oh well then I guess the best thing to do is stay quiet and let everyone think they're cool with the fact that their game features a white supremacist.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
May 5, 2014
9,911
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Most people are saying it wouldn't be enough, as the post 3 down from yours does. And I suspect even a number of people who have expressed that they wish there were a statement would then shift the goalposts if that statement were issued and demand the removal of the voice. That would be a very natural reaction if you see that you're getting traction, to ask for more.

Better not do anything then. That'll show em.
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
0
0
Canananada
Oh please. What do you think he was implying there besides that?

In the context in which it was said, he was arguing that if it was done slowly enough, there would be no shift in culture, because they would slowly integrate into the existing gene pool. He also said afterward that he would be fine if whites became a minority when "100 million brown people" immigrated but "assimilated to the culture immediately" (quoting Destiny). So I don't think "foreigners would dilute the gene" pool is a fair interpretation, and completely misleading as a direct quote.
 

guybrushfreeman

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Sep 19, 2012
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In the context in which it was said, he was arguing that if it was done slowly enough, there would be no shift in culture, because they would slowly integrate into the existing gene pool. He also said afterward that he would be fine if whites became a minority when "100 million brown people" immigrated but "assimilated to the culture immediately" (quoting Destiny). So I don't think "foreigners would dilute the gene" pool is a fair interpretation, and completely misleading as a direct quote.

No it really isn’t. Please think about what you’re doing. Why would you do this? There’s no ambiguity in the interview. Watch it if you haven’t. There is no reason to defend this

Edit:
because they would slowly integrate into the existing gene pool.

This is such a disgusting thing to say in every possible interpretation. I beg you to stop and think seriously about what you’ve begun doing here
 

Gotdatmoney

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May 5, 2014
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I think, people need to listen to the whole debate. It's much harder to defend or differently interpret what Jon is saying if you hear him doing it for 2 hours.

Yup. I sat through that bile for 2 hours. People better miss me with that bullshit about misinterpretating his point. You come out here and try to down play what JonTron said, flat out you're defending racism. No if ands or buts.
 

Oersted

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Mar 14, 2012
32,328
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Lol I listened to that whole debate and you're using some funny interpretations here. Hint: We see you.

The "0,xx posts per day"posters are full of shit rule rarely fails.

I think, people need to listen to the whole debate. It's much harder to defend or differently interpret what Jon is saying if you hear him doing it for 2 hours.

I gonna make the wildest of guesses and say they are defending him because they agree with JonTron and are simply in for the trolling.
 
Nov 26, 2015
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I think "foreigners dilute the gene pool" is a somewhat uncharitable take on what he said, in that exact quote. I don't think you should jump on that poster too hard.

But what he is saying in that clip is still very very bad. Again, please listen to the 10 minutes on either side of that quote if you haven't.
 

funkystudent

Member
Apr 3, 2010
29,269
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I see 2 options.

1. The dev is a dirtbag and saw no issue with John's comments
2. They disagree with him but decided they didn't think it was worth the same backlash YL got from trolls.


Both are kinda shitty
 

Stone Ocean

Member
May 27, 2013
31,205
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I think "foreigners dilute the gene pool" is a somewhat uncharitable take on what he said, in that exact quote. I don't think you should jump on that poster too hard.

But what he is saying in that clip is still very very bad. Again, please listen to the 10 minutes on either side of that quote if you haven't.
It's not hard to hit a random timestamp and hear Jon saying some putrid shit lol
 

kliklik

Banned
May 2, 2011
772
0
0
Canananada
You've begun defending white supremacy and it's time to take a step back and reflect on how you ended up here
You're downplaying blatant racism because you either agree with it or don't think it's a big deal. Pretty sure that was obvious.
We see what you're doing and why.

Wow. I can only quote JonTron on things he's said, not things he didn't. I pointed out that the quote they were asking a citation for ("foreigners dilute the genepool") didn't exist and quoting it is misleading.

Somehow, that's conflated with defending white supremacy, and you start personally attacking me as if i'm a white supremacist by association....

Isn't this EXACTLY what the modpost warns against?

You're allowed to engage with people who explain their reasoning. You're not allowed to yell at or impugn people because they don't take the same position as you. You're not allowed to throw personal insults.

FFS. People need to calm down and take a step back from the computer.
 

guybrushfreeman

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Sep 19, 2012
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Wow. I can only quote JonTron on things he's said, not things he didn't. I pointed out that the quote they were asking a citation for ("foreigners dilute the genepool") didn't exist and quoting it is misleading.

Somehow, that's conflated with defending white supremacy, and you start personally attacking me as if i'm a white supremacist by association....

Isn't this EXACTLY what the modpost warns against?



FFS. People need to calm down and take a step back from the computer.

In reality there is no context where you should be citing the gene pool when talking about immigration.
The end.

Attacking you? People are asking you to reconsider your stance. You aren’t thinking this through clearly
 

Muffin1611

Banned
Jul 6, 2016
3,818
0
0
I think "foreigners dilute the gene pool" is a somewhat uncharitable take on what he said, in that exact quote. I don't think you should jump on that poster too hard.

But what he is saying in that clip is still very very bad. Again, please listen to the 10 minutes on either side of that quote if you haven't.

When somebody is apparently concerned over foreigners entering the gene pool, and also making statements about criminality in Africa, which could only be possibly linked to African Americans over skin color, how is "diluting the gene pool" not what he's saying? He's "concerned" that more blacks come into the country and the country gets more criminal.

The moment you talk about the genepool in regards to race, you're very clearly using Nazi ideology as the base of your argument.

Wow. I can only quote JonTron on things he's said, not things he didn't. I pointed out that the quote they were asking a citation for ("foreigners dilute the genepool") didn't exist and quoting it is misleading.

After listening to the segments again, the quote is exactly what he's trying to say without saying it out loud.
 
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