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[Zaventem]

I think this thread is the perfect place to reminisce about how people were reacting to Dark Souls II 8-9 months ago.

Hahaha i wonder if any of those people saw this thread yet.

Are the notes you can leave for other players still only selectable from a relatively small list of predetermined lines?

Because I was basically sold on Dark SOuls for the note leaving and player-to-community interactivity and was *really* disappointed when I realized it wasn't even a text input with a harsh word filter, but a small list of things I was allowed to say.

This is a multilingual game of course you can't.

 

[Shengar]

Incoming crow buffet for everyone who predicted a casual game and the death of the series when the sequel was announced!

It's a pretty hefty, detailed article, so here's the rundown:

• Possible to be invaded while hollow.
• Humanity scrapped, replaced with a single item like Stone of Ephemeral Eyes.
• Repeated deaths while hollow decrease max HP up to 50%.
• White phantoms now have a limited duration, may have to leave sooner if they do too much work for the host player.
• More visible blood stains and messages thanks to being server-based instead of P2P, messages no longer require an item to write.
• Way of Blue covenant summons a player phantom to help defend if you get invaded.
• 3 item slots per hand, 10 consumable item slots. UI is much denser and more detailed, less scrolling necessary.
• Agility stat that increases movement and dodge speed. Existing stats being retooled, such as Dexterity making bleeding/poison more effective.

You'd better get ready to die.

This changes are really great. I used to play as hollow to avoid invansion. But then later I feel somehow miss many thing from the games. Now I'm ready to face those invader, even if it cost me a lot of souls (just farm souls in offline mode lol).

Prepare to cry.

lol, so right

This sounds beautiful. A casual's nightmare.

Pretty much.

 

[bhlaab]

More like you have to go human to get your health back.

And that would be cool and interesting if being human made you vulnerable to invasion, but with hollow invasions there seems to be less of a point. I liked how there was a bit of a give-and-take between deciding to stay hollow or become human, sounds like they're just making it so hollow is bad always.

 

[Mauricio_Magus]

Anyone not wanting to get invaded, can't you just play offline?

 

[B-Genius]

It punishes people who experiment. I really don't like the sound of it at all.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

People will be able to try this stuff for themselves come October when the beta hits. It's going to be exciting seeing how they change up the gameplay we *think* we're all familiar with.

I like the idea of limiting summon time (as others have said, it discourages ganking and phantoms blasting ahead through an area you haven't explored yet), but I do hope we see something that allows easier co-op with dedicated friends. Even if it's only accessible in NG+ so everyone's encouraged to brave the game "alone" for the first time.

Regardless, I'm sure a lot of thought is going into the new servers and design choices. Let's all just thank the Sun that it's not going to be the "toned-down casual" fest people feared.

Edit:

Are the notes you can leave for other players still only selectable from a relatively small list of predetermined lines?

Because I was basically sold on Dark SOuls for the note leaving and player-to-community interactivity and was *really* disappointed when I realized it wasn't even a text input with a harsh word filter, but a small list of things I was allowed to say.

Don't worry - while messages are still composed from preset texts, there seem to be more options and flexibility this time around.
E.g. you can do "Be wary of [something] ahead. In other words... [something something]"

 

[Grief.exe]

I think this thread is the perfect place to reminisce about how people were reacting to Dark Souls II 8-9 months ago.


O ye of little faith.

I was going to bring that up as well. This sounds completely different than GAF just a few months ago.

Complete opposite reaction.

 

[dkoy]

This. Little Mr Power Gamer who figured out how to get an end game weapon on his level 1 character ruins things for everyone now, as well as those that just use immortality cheats.


This is not good news.

We don't know if the invasion system is dependent on levels still so we'll just have to wait and see and I'm pretty sure they'll put safeguards against cheat engines and such now that they're developing with PC in mind. Of course there'll always be people who crack it but there shouldn't be too many. If you're still worried about hackers play on console

 

[Zeliard]

Invasions being allowed in both human and undead states doesn't necessarily mean there's nothing you can do to keep invasions at bay short of playing offline.

Perhaps there will certain items you can use or a covenant like a more impactful and effective version of Way of White, which will possibly make invasions something that happen quite rarely or perhaps never after upgrades. The Way of Blue covenant that summons a helpful Phantom as soon as you are invaded is something I was hoping the game would include. The Way of Blue Phantom may also have some specific buffs or spells in dealing with invaders that we don't know about yet, or maybe they'll be summoned from a higher level pool.

From's main purpose seems to be to remove some of the advantages to being undead - which is more of a state of punishment for dying - and presumably because they didn't consider it ideal that people mostly went around as some ghostly entity or hideous skeleton thing in the first two Souls games.

If they also want to emphasize more of a social covenant style of play this time around, this will be another way to encourage online players to band together and take advantage of the co-op features.

 

[kozmo7]

Well, shit. I'm ready for my punishment.

I find it funny how everyone on the internet was complaining about how this one would be easier, those devs troll like no other.

 

[joe2187]

BRING IT MOTHERFUCKER! LETS GO!

 

[Mupod]

Yeah I was just thinking that covenants could tie into preventing hollow invasions somehow.

I really do hope covenants get some truly cool stuff this time, that actually works. Anyone remember the rumors that Darkwraiths could invade without the host getting a notification?

 

[popyea]

It punishes people who experiment. I really don't like the sound of it at all.

These games have never accommodated experimentation. They certainly require it sometimes, but they don't care about encouraging it. If you die you'll get your ass sent back to the beginning of the level. This is good if you like thoughtful or careful experimentation, rather than Super Meat Boy or Hotline Miami style experimenting.

 

[Shengar]

I think summoning time limitation add more tension to the game. As the host, you want to beat as soon as possible before your phantoms return back to their world. While as phantom, you want to do so too in order to get your reward (assuming being de-summoned because time expiration don't give you any reward). It is pretty good coop enhancement I think.

 

[Vire]

These games have never accommodated experimentation. They certainly require it sometimes, but they don't care about encouraging it. If you die you'll get your ass sent back to the beginning of the level. This is good if you like thoughtful or careful experimentation, rather than Super Meat Boy or Hotline Miami style experimenting.

Of course it encouraged experimentation. I beat every boss in the game without using a guide, you think I could do that on my first try with each of them? With the half health bullshit it just adds extra aggravation to those who want to play it the right way. (Without a guide).

I don't really see how this is fun. The rest of the changes sound great though.

 

[Arcayne]

Incoming crow buffet for everyone who predicted a casual game and the death of the series when the sequel was announced!

It's a pretty hefty, detailed article, so here's the rundown:

• [*]Possible to be invaded while hollow.
• Humanity scrapped, replaced with a single item like Stone of Ephemeral Eyes.
• Repeated deaths while hollow decrease max HP up to 50%.
• White phantoms now have a limited duration, may have to leave sooner if they do too much work for the host player.
• More visible blood stains and messages thanks to being server-based instead of P2P, messages no longer require an item to write.
• Way of Blue covenant summons a player phantom to help defend if you get invaded.
• 3 item slots per hand, 10 consumable item slots. UI is much denser and more detailed, less scrolling necessary.
• Agility stat that increases movement and dodge speed. Existing stats being retooled, such as Dexterity making bleeding/poison more effective.

You'd better get ready to die.

I'm guessing an item is required for this one ala Dark Souls' Red Soapstone? Regardless, all additions and changes sound soo goood. The agility stat sounds game changing for pvp.

 

[bhlaab]

Invasions being allowed in both human and undead states doesn't necessarily mean there's nothing you can do to keep invasions at bay short of playing offline.

Perhaps there will certain items you can use or a covenant like a more impactful and effective version of Way of White, which will possibly make invasions something that happen quite rarely or perhaps never after upgrades. The Way of Blue covenant that summons a helpful Phantom as soon as you are invaded is something I was hoping the game would include. The Way of Blue Phantom may also have some specific buffs or spells in dealing with invaders that we don't know about yet, or maybe they'll be summoned from a higher level pool.

From's main purpose seems to be to remove some of the advantages to being undead - which is more of a state of punishment for dying - and presumably because they didn't consider it ideal that people mostly went around as some ghostly entity or hideous skeleton thing in the first two Souls games.

If they also want to emphasize more of a social covenant style of play this time around, this will be another way to encourage online players to band together and take advantage of the co-op features.

Well hopefully so but even if that's the case they need to be WAY more on top of cheaters than they have been in the past.

 

[Orayn]

Well hopefully so but even if that's the case they need to be WAY more on top of cheaters than they have been in the past.

Another thing they said the server-based setup would help with, since everyone who plays online will be sharing their credentials directly with FROM Software instead of the more hands-off approach that comes with P2P. Should make cheat detection and banning much easier.

 

[tafer]

These changes sounds interesting, however, I hope they are balancing EVERYTHING in order to accommodate them.

The last thing I want is another Soul's where it is impossible to play on human form (without guides) since Trolls with high-end gear keep invading.

 

[Zeliard]

I think summoning time limitation add more tension to the game. As the host, you want to beat as soon as possible before your phantoms return back to their world. While as phantom, you want to do so too in order to get your reward (assuming being de-summoned because time expiration don't give you any reward). It is pretty good coop enhancement I think.

Yeah it seems like a good change since it also doesn't look like it'll affect co-oping for boss fights. We don't really know what sorts of timers you'll get there but given that the timer apparently speeds up the more the summoned phantom kills things for the player, this shouldn't really affect boss fights (unless the boss has a lot of pets, maybe).

I think they just didn't want your co-op buddy to run through the entire level without you doing much of anything, but you'll probably still be able to get a phantom to nuke a boss for you if you're really stuck.

One of my favorite things to do in the Souls games is help people out, so I like that they seem to be emphasizing that aspect of the game more.

 

[XaosWolf]

• Possible to be invaded while hollow.

Sounds like Griefer Hax City.

• Agility stat that increases movement and dodge speed.

But my Dual Swordsman will be glorious.

 

[Shengar]

Another thing they said the server-based setup would help with, since everyone who plays online will be sharing their credentials directly with FROM Software instead of the more hands-off approach that comes with P2P. Should make cheat detection and banning much easier.

How is banning work in a game like this? I mean, you couldn't banned their respective online service account right?

 

[Rickenslacker]

Of course it encouraged experimentation. I beat every boss in the game without using a guide, you think I could do that on my first try with each of them? With the half health bullshit it just adds extra aggravation to those who want to play it the right way. (Without a guide).

I don't really see how this is fun. The rest of the changes sound great though.

Most bosses in the games are fairly straight forward that any extra handicap wouldn't exactly necessitate resorting to a guide, more just being on point when engaging them. Demon's would cut your health by half as well when you died in human form, and it would darken the tendency of the section you were in resulting in another difficulty increase; you had options to mitigate them in that game, but it didn't harm the experience.

 

[popyea]

Of course it encouraged experimentation. I beat every boss in the game without using a guide, you think I could do that on my first try with each of them? With the half health bullshit it just adds extra aggravation to those who want to play it the right way. (Without a guide).

I don't really see how this is fun. The rest of the changes sound great though.

You experimented because the game is obtuse and experimenting is the best way to discover things. But at what point did the game start giving you free passes to make mistakes without punishment? I'm not saying the game was never about experimentation, just that it was always done with great trepidation.

 

[TheCongressman1]

The last thing I want is another Soul's where it is impossible to play on human form (without guides) since Trolls with high end gear keep invading.

Too late. Hollows can be invaded now, lol... Oh man, I really hope they balance this well.

I like the new hollow system. Going back to a Demon's style half health is interesting, I just hope it isn't a huge ordeal to become human again. Humanities were easy to come by, but ephemeral eyes were a lot more rare. I ended up just staying hollow most of the time in Demon's because of that.

 

[Orayn]

How is banning work in a game like this? I mean, you couldn't banned their respective online service account right?

I'm sure MS and Sony give developers who host game servers power to ban player from the whole service if they're caught cheating, or at least to submit a global ban request. Similarly, they could enforce bans on PC through Valve Anti-Cheat if it's a full Steamworks game, or just through whatever account system they use.

 

[Swarna]

If you're someone who's adverse to PVP perhaps you should consider another franchise entirely. The Souls games have always been created with PVP in mind. It has also never marketed itself as casual-friendly or accessible. Either you nut up and accept it for what it is or play a watered-down offline version. The gear complaints are short-sighted as almost all equipment is viable in even endgame if upgraded. I find that these complaints come from people who spend their souls on levelling up without giving a second thought to spending it on their equipment.

If the developers were to change the game around your whims the result would be a game different in design (due to PVP not being a focus anymore). With that being said I'm almost certain there will be ways to avoid player contact without needing to disconnect.

My biggest concern is whether there is any cheat-detection. I seriously doubt this will be the case but if things like health bars during combat are handled server-side then they can cut down on cheaters.

 

[Vire]

You experimented because the game is obtuse and experimenting is the best way to discover things. But at what point did the game start giving you free passes to make mistakes without punishment? I'm not saying the game was never about experimentation, just that it was always done with great trepidation.

Me having to run back to my corpse because I died and I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = fair punishment.

Having half health because I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = bullshit.

There's a difference.

If you're someone who's adverse to PVP perhaps you should consider another franchise entirely. The Souls games have always been created with PVP in mind. It has also never marketed itself as casual-friendly or accessible. Either you nut up and accept it for what it is or play a watered-down offline version. The gear complaints are short-sighted as almost all equipment is viable in even endgame if upgraded. I find that these complaints come from people who spend their souls on levelling up without giving a second thought to spending it on their equipment.

If the developers were to change the game around your whims the result would be a game different in design (due to PVP not being a focus anymore). With that being said I'm almost certain there will be ways to avoid player contact without needing to disconnect.

My biggest concern is whether there is any cheat-detection. I seriously doubt this will be the case but if things like health bars during combat are handled server-side then they can cut down on cheaters.

Maybe that's what it meant to you, but no I did not play Dark Souls with PVP in mind. Every PVP encounter I had was getting trolled and ganked by some high gear opponent. I didn't consider that fun, I just rolled my eyes and said get it over with.

I don't especially like that change because now I see myself getting ganked and trolled all the time.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Me having to run back to my corpse because I died and I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = fair punishment.

Having half health because I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = bullshit.

There's a difference.

I think it would be fair to also recover your health if you get back to your bloodstain.

 

[Vire]

I think it would be fair to also recover your health if you get back to your bloodstain.

That's fair, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Boner inducing

And here I was worried this game would get easier

Fuck. YES

THIS

 

[XaosWolf]

Mind you, it does say "possible" to be invaded whilst hollow.
Hopefully there's some clarification as to whether that means in general or via an item/covenant.

Otherwise Hollow is just Cursed.

 

[SeventhSon]

That's fair, I don't have a problem with that.

Except now, invaders are corpse camping your bloodstain.

 

[Mike M]

Except now, invaders are corpse camping your bloodstain.

I don't think Invaders have ever been able to see those blood stains?

 

[tafer]

If you're someone who's adverse to PVP perhaps you should consider another franchise entirely. The Souls games have always been created with PVP in mind. It has also never marketed itself as casual-friendly or accessible. Either you nut up and accept it for what it is or play a watered-down offline version. The gear complaints are short-sighted as almost all equipment is viable in even endgame if upgraded. I find that these complaints come from people who spend their souls on levelling up without giving a second thought to spending it on their equipment.

If the developers were to change the game around your whims the result would be a game different in design (due to PVP not being a focus anymore). With that being said I'm almost certain there will be ways to avoid player contact without needing to disconnect.

My biggest concern is whether there is any cheat-detection. I seriously doubt this will be the case but if things like health bars during combat are handled server-side then they can cut down on cheaters.

So you are suggesting that EVERYONE SHOULD USE A GUIDE, since it is damn difficult to play without facing a troll since level 1. (Both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls suffer from this)

And of course, let's not forget that Souls + Guides = ruined experience.

And this is from someone who spend 500+ Hours on both souls games as a complete PvP addict.

 

[Orayn]

Mind you, it does say "possible" to be invaded whilst hollow.
Hopefully there's some clarification as to whether that means in general or via an item/covenant.

Otherwise Hollow is just Cursed.

It's not like cursed, since they said 50% max health was the maximum penalty, not a universal thing whenever you were hollow.

Their main motivation was to make human form more desirable, since hollow form had more advantages than drawbacks in Dark Souls.

 

[Shengar]

Yeah it seems like a good change since it also doesn't look like it'll affect co-oping for boss fights. We don't really know what sorts of timers you'll get there but given that the timer apparently speeds up the more the summoned phantom kills things for the player, this shouldn't really affect boss fights (unless the boss has a lot of pets, maybe).

I think they just didn't want your co-op buddy to run through the entire level without you doing much of anything, but you'll probably still be able to get a phantom to nuke a boss for you if you're really stuck.

One of my favorite things to do in the Souls games is help people out, so I like that they seem to be emphasizing that aspect of the game more.

I think it also have base timer to make sure your phantoms aren't summoned to trap invanding player. I've seen such dickheads a lot (though it satifying to see such dickheads get stabbed in the back by skillful player) and it somehow ruin the nature of the game. Slaying enemies in the host world I think would make that timer ticked off faster.

With their Way of Blue convenant, I really like the direction their taking with this series.

I'm sure MS and Sony give developers who host game servers power to ban player from the whole service if they're caught cheating, or at least to submit a global ban request. Similarly, they could enforce bans on PC through Valve Anti-Cheat if it's a full Steamworks game, or just through whatever account system they use.

PC clearly need this due to their nature. I just don't like seeing PC user to have lesser experience just because some of them decide to become dickheads and ruined everyone's game.

It's not like cursed, since they said 50% max health was the maximum penalty, not a universal thing whenever you were hollow.

Their main motivation was to make human form more desirable, since hollow form had more advantages than drawbacks in Dark Souls.

The hollow form in Dark Souls is horribly designed IMO compared to soul form in Demon's Soul. The downside you can get is that your character look ugly and can't summon phantom to help (and at the same time, can't get invaded as well).

 

[popyea]

Me having to run back to my corpse because I died and I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = fair punishment.

Having half health because I was experimenting on a boss with different strategies = bullshit.

Lol, well there's apparently a very fine line then. Don't really see how it's so different when the half health situation can be remedied by turning human.

 

[Orayn]

PC clearly need this due to their nature. I just don't like seeing PC user to have lesser experience just because some of them decide to become dickheads and ruined everyone's game.

If anything, it'll be easier to stop hackers on PC since it's easier to patch the game and there are fewer "black box" services that you have to go through.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

The way Dark Souls is designed makes it relatively easy for an experience played to get any equipment they want at any level they want. Nobody wants to get killed in one hit by some guy who created a build with the sole purpose of killing inexperienced players.

The rest sounds fine.

 

[GravityMan]

Hell yeah. I like the sound of all of those changes. There wasn't a whole lot of incentive to be in human form in Dark Souls 1, and some of the things listed seem to address that. Invaded while hollow should be fine if balancing is done well.

 

[TheCongressman1]

The way Dark Souls is designed makes it relatively easy for an experience played to get any equipment they want at any level they want. Nobody wants to get killed in one hit by some guy who created a build with the sole purpose of killing inexperienced players.

If way of the blue covenant works the way it sounds, it should help with that problem.

 

[Dantard]

Well hopefully so but even if that's the case they need to be WAY more on top of cheaters than they have been in the past.

I *LOVE* the idea of constant fear of invasions (and the possibility of invading anyone, since I constantly play as a Dickwraith) and I love that some people will have this blue covenant, so the game makes it pretty clear we're *not* supposed to be having fair fights/duels (there's probably going to be an arena or something for that purpose) and we have to use every advantage we can get to survive/kill others (like stealth/surprise or using enemies as a darkwraith , to compensate for the constant 2v1s).

But, like you said, I'm really concerned about unavoidable cheaters.

EDIT: Also, I'm glad I was wrong about the game and it's turning out great.

 

[GaimeGuy]

How about you have to be human to NOT be invaded? :>

Makes it so the rush to reacquire your souls and stuff is more tense with people invading

 

[Jabba]

The fuck? Awful, I always hated PVP in the Souls games. Whatever, I will just play offline if they are going to do that.

I do too. I am good enough to finish pve but not any good at pvp. Hopefully they give a choice.

 

[XaosWolf]

It's not like cursed, since they said 50% max health was the maximum penalty, not a universal thing whenever you were hollow.

Their main motivation was to make human form more desirable, since hollow form had more advantages than drawbacks in Dark Souls.

Well the downside of being Hollow was always having zero help throughout the game.

I'm more than happy for them taking half your health off you like Demon's Souls did, but adding the tension of invasion to Hollow form as well pushes things past difficulty and into frustration. =/

 

[Vire]

How about you have to be human to NOT be invaded? :>

Makes it so the rush to reacquire your souls and stuff is more tense with people invading

I like the way this guy thinks.

More incentive to be human.

 

[Setero]

They should have just made human form have more benefits like increased souls/item drop, something that rewards the risk of invasion.

 

[Orayn]

How about you have to be human to NOT be invaded? :>

Makes it so the rush to reacquire your souls and stuff is more tense with people invading

I like the way this guy thinks.

More incentive to be human.

It would be interesting if they inverted the way things worked in previous games and had human form decrease your chances of invasion, though it would still be possible in both forms.

 

[criesofthepast]

I think I'll skip this one. I'm kind of burnt out on demon/dark souls. These games take a lot of out a person. I thought dark souls was easy and I only died because of developers wanting to punish me by being cheap. Soured my experience a bit.

 

[MilkBeard]

Invaded while hollow is some bullshit. Coupled with DeS-esque HP penalty? Bullshit squared, the first news out of this game's development to legitimately be a detractor for me.

Way of the Blue sounds like it fills a needed niche in the Coveneant system.

Time to man-up, my friend. You know what they say about Demon/Dark Souls. Prepare to Die.

Actually, all joking aside, you won't know what it's like until you actually play. I'm sure they are making gameplay tweaks all around that haven't been mentioned that might make this an easier pill to swallow.

And it's funny how people were originally complaining that From Software was 'watering it down,' making it too easy.