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[Elfforkusu]

Investor rights, look them up.

There is no equity here. You are not an investor, you are a customer.

In any case, the financials of this game are assuredly in active negotiations -- e.g, the amount of money that sony might pledge, which is clearly contingent on the result of the (ongoing!) kickstarter. Does your pledge entitle you to a live stream of the negotiating table? There will be lawyers...

 

[Fbh]

The mistake you're making here is drawing parallels between buying a product and putting money forward for a Kickstarter. They're two different things. When you back a Kickstarter project you're investing in a concept/business. You're not buying anything and have absolutely zero consumer rights.

Kickstarter is barely investing. It's much closer to donating money IMO

 

[NahaNago]

There is no equity here. You are not an investor, you are a customer.

In any case, the financials of this game are assuredly in active negotiations -- e.g, the amount of money that sony might pledge, which is clearly contingent on the result of the (ongoing!) kickstarter. Does your pledge entitle you to a live stream of the negotiating table? There will be lawyers...

I think customer doesn't work as well . Donator works a bit better with gift tiers based off how much you donate.

 

[Oersted]

"1) You don't have to care about what I think. You have the right to not give a shit what I think. That's fine. Again, you could ignore me, just as Kuchera could ignore this Kickstarter and move on with his life, since doing so wouldn't change his life in any way, shape or form."

Thank you.

"2) That's what he's implying by saying that the Shenmue 3 budget being a mystery is a problem. He's saying that something that has nothing to do with him is bad, even though he has no involvement in it, and it effects him in no way whatsoever. He can have that opinion, but everyone else can also not give a shit about said opinion based on a combination of his, and his company's history of shoddy work, and the fact that said problem wouldn't effect him either way. He's voicing a personal issue about the situation, an opinion, not a fact. And every one is saying "Why would we care about your personal opinion on the situation when you're not involved?""


That is not him saying he doesn't like the product. Don't try to look silly.
A Journalist, Heck anyone, never had to be directly invested or involved to voice their opinion. Never. You can say a commercial about a product is missleading, even if the product is not available in your country. You can say a car is crap without owning it.


"3) A Kickstarter is not public interest. A Kickstarter only effects people who donate to said Kickstarter and since said Kickstarter is an entertainment product, that turns the Kickstarter into an economic interest. It does not effect the general public whatsoever, because every person has the choice to ignore said Kickstarter and move on with their life with absolutely no repercussion. "


They ask the public on the public plattform E3, to spend money on the public Kickstarter. Where did the public drop out the picture.

"4) People can ask about the details of the Kickstarter all they want, "

Thank you.

"but when they start implying that something about said Kickstarter is a problem, everyone has the right to ask why anyone should care why said person thinks it's a problem, especially if said "Problem" will never effect him in any way whatsoever if he just ignored it."

I can't follow you there.

" It would be no different then if I got on Twitter and ranted about my buddy buying a new car I didn't like. The new car doesn't effect me in any way. It's not my money being spent on the car. Him buying the car won't damage my life in any way. Even if I think my buddy got screwed on the price, or paid for things relating to the car I would see as a waste, if he is happy with said car purchase, it's not my place to go around telling people what he bought is a problem."


To clarify: this is not about a ranting about your friend, it is about saying the seller screwed your friend, or to be more precise, not getting relevant information. And if your friend can't deall with that, than, if I might say that, than is your friend a weirdass motherfucker. Of course, you can side with the seller, which, to stay in the anology, you do. Which I can unterstand, because the seller is the only one who. Which I can understand, since the seller is the only one who can give you what you want.

"5) The whole "The public has the right to ask who is involved." when it comes to investors is true."

Thank you.

" The part that is not true, is the idea that you have to be told, and that not knowing is some kind of factual blemish on the project itself. If it were, the Kickstarter would be taken down and would have never been funded in the first place because they refuse to give the public this information. "

I can't follow you there.

"Also, I saw your point about investors rights at the bottom of the last page, and it should be noted that Kickstarter backers are donators, not investors. They do not get the same rights as investors."

Even(?) donators have rights.

 

[Kerromatic]

"We'll kickstart the game pre-alpha and sell them on different endings with life insurance packages....if you can make-believe it hard enough...they will buy it!"

We all know what happens when nobody puts a cap on these crowdfunding projects, dont we?

 

[NahaNago]

it seems kickstarter already had a name for it and we who put money down are called backers.

edit: after a bit of thinking i feel like what the money is actually used for should be what most folks are concerned about not how much Sony is putting down or even the fact that Sony is the one funding/backing it just think of them as the bank erickson. From what i've seen of a few kickstars they usually mention personal financing or providers when talking about outside funding but no mention of how much that is so them not telling us how much money they are spending is the norm.

 

[Fisty]

Im pretty sure the article would read much, much differently had Phil Spencer brought Yu up on stage. Kuchera wants transparency, but hes the one that is transparent.

 

[Mihos]

Yeah, I like to see an organization chart, development roadmap, and RONA report before donating $20 also.


God I hate Polygon

 

[Renekton]

Yeah, I like to see an organization chart, development roadmap, and RONA report before donating $20 also.


God I hate Polygon

They score tons of hits with this type of farticles, ya gotta give them that.

 

[Hisoka]

Why do people complain? Because Sony still helping, aside from Kickstarter?
You still get Shenmue 3 for 29$. A complete new game. Isn't that awesome? And it's Shenmue.. SHENMUE!

 

[RSP]

I guess the goal is to finish the story, right?

I don't think creating a game similar to the original would be too difficult nowadays. I suppose you want to bring most mechanics to the next level, but Shenmue has always been more about the story than anything else.

I think you should be able to pull a game like this off with a budget of $10 - $15 million. If the design is ready, and the studio is efficient, it could be much less than that.

If they want to "re-invent the genre" or something ambitious, it could be much more than that.

 

[Drackhorn]

Polygon be Polygone.
They are in it for the clicks.

Now give me my Shenmue.

 

[Durante]

Oh wow I agree with Polygon, regardless of whatever their reasons are for doing the article.

Kickstarter projects require transparency.

 

[Hypereides]

This is the same publication that wrote this regarding the whole Tomb Raider and XB1 ordeal.



So when a questionable (and thats putting it lightly) budget decision is made by Crystal Dynamics/Microsoft to make sure a game that was first announced for all platforms suddenly becomes a "timed exclusive", its a brilliant business move and they should be applauded? But when Sony does it it's literally a "problem"?! Where's the consistency in that statement?



Isn't that THE EXACT SAME F**KING THING that Sony is doing with Shenmue?!

Have to say this really illustrates a double standard.

 

[dumbo]

Oh wow I agree with Polygon, regardless of whatever their reasons are for doing the article.

Kickstarter projects require transparency.

Whilst I agree, you probably mean "Kickstarter projects *should* require transparency".
- Elite Dangerous was not transparent.
- Star Citizen has always been more opaque than a brick wall.

(those are the only 2 kickstarter projects that I've followed, and neither were transparent about their funding)

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

Investor rights, look them up.

None of what you're complaining about comes under investors rights though. Sony have broken zero legalities in what they've done, but continue to push your agenda, it's an entertaining read.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Who gives a fuck? The game getting made is all that matters.

 

[Acquiescence]

Why do people complain? Because Sony still helping, aside from Kickstarter?
You still get Shenmue 3 for 29$. A complete new game. Isn't that awesome? And it's Shenmue.. SHENMUE!

Anyone who's a Shenmue fan probably wants Sony putting their money into the project anyway. When I was watching the live reveal I was hyped, but there was a nagging thought in my mind that, because Suzuki was going down the Kickstarter route, 3 would be severely watered-down and constrained as a result, compared to the first two games. The more money that companies are willing to throw at this project, the better. Not that I'm saying a bigger budget equals a superior game, otherwise there wouldn't be a fuckton of indies games out there that are far better than the latest Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty, but Shenmue is generally a very ambitious series. Those games have a huge scope, and in order to capture that grandiosity for the third installment, Suzuki and his team are going to need a sizeable budget to realise his ideal vision. I was relieved as hell to learn that Sony were supporting the game in their own way too, and I say that as a die-hard of the series. I fail to see what's shady about this financial setup. Shenmue 3 is finally getting made, and (hopefully) will result in a product that meets Suzuki's and fans' expectations. That ought to be celebrated.

 

[TheSlySoul]

Yeah, Polygon will never be taken seriously by me...

 

[Triggerhappytel]

Why exactly are people so angry at a journalist* asking for details regarding the funding and budget of a game that is on Kickstarter (and includes external financing)?

*Well, videogame journalist.

Because the budget of the game probably isn't known to anyone at this point. The Kickstarter is obviously going to raise a shit load more than its initial $2 million, and then the external funding sources (i.e. Sony) will be highly contingent on the amount of money they get through KS. Can Kuchera not understand that the budget and scope isn't finalised because the crowdfunding period has only just begun?! They'll outlay their plans for the game design more over the coming months I'm sure, but it's obviously not going to have the ambitious scope and vast budget of the original two games?

 

[Cheech]

Who gives a fuck? The game getting made is all that matters.

And what if it never comes to market?

Millions of dollars donated, and at any point the plug could be pulled on the whole thing.

Sony is supporting it as well, you say? Great! A publisher notorious for letting games slip for years and years down the road is going to ride herd on a game that, let's face it, is not going to be a blockbuster. A sure fire recipe for NOT seeing this game before 2020.

There is a general aura of excitement about this game, and sorry to shit on the fun, but there is merit to the Polygon article.

I also don't like the precedent this sets. Kickstarter itself says its not a corporate lapdog, but if a Nintendo came to them to help Kickstart their next console? That is way too much money for anyone to say "no" to.

 

[kiguel182]

I think the problem is the same as that Castlevania one. It gives the impression that some types of games are way cheaper so when an indie developer asks for the actual money needed they are looked at as scammers or incompetent.

If you are doing a Kickstarter you should be open about stuff like that. Like how much money is needed and how Kickstarter helps with that.

That's my main problem with the whole thing. Using a Kickstarter as a way to gauge interest or make fans put their money where their mouth is would sit way better with me if they were upfront about it. Like "Sony will fund us if people will at least pay 2 million first". The guy from Castlevania did that and it's okay.

And saying it after the Kickstarter in an interview is not okay. It should be front and center at the announcement. Most people don't follow game news and just see Shenmue Kickstarter, 2 million and that's it.

 

[Nicktendo86]

That's the risk of being a kickstarter backer. It says it right on the website, there is risk. There is no guarantee of the game ever being released, backers have to weigh up the risk vs the potential reward.

I would be as gutted as anyone if Shenmue 3 ends up not being released, but life goes on. KS backers can see on the page there is no guarantee or details of outside investment, its up to them if they want to put their money up. If they lose it that will suck, but that's life.

 

[Durante]

I think the problem is the same as that Castlevania one.

I think it's worse than that right now actually. For Iga's KS, they at least provided an idea of the amount of money the publisher would contribute.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I think the problem is the same as that Castlevania one. It gives the impression that some types of games are way cheaper so when an indie developer asks for the actual money needed they are looked at as scammers or incompetent.

If you are doing a Kickstarter you should be open about stuff like that. Like how much money is needed and how Kickstarter helps with that.

That's my main problem with the whole thing. Using a Kickstarter as a way to gauge interest or make fans put their money where their mouth is would sit way better with me if they were upfront about it. Like "Sony will fund us if people will at least pay 2 million first". The guy from Castlevania did that and it's okay.

And saying it after the Kickstarter in an interview is not okay. It should be front and center at the announcement. Most people don't follow game news and just see Shenmue Kickstarter, 2 million and that's it.

I think this is a fair complaint. They really should have disclosed they had publisher backing behind them.

Sony is supporting it as well, you say? Great! A publisher notorious for letting games slip for years and years down the road is going to ride herd on a game that, let's face it, is not going to be a blockbuster. A sure fire recipe for NOT seeing this game before 2020.

Come on now lol

 

[Reedirect]

Funny how something similar happened with several other Kickstarters (like Kingdom Come: Deliverance) and they didn't bother reporting on that. Gotta get those clicks while this is hot though.

 

[tmtyf]

Why do people complain? Because Sony still helping, aside from Kickstarter?
You still get Shenmue 3 for 29$. A complete new game. Isn't that awesome? And it's Shenmue.. SHENMUE!

When I saw the price the first thing that I thought of was if the game would be in the same scale as the previous ones or if this would come out in episodes. Kind of blew me away that they were selling it for 29

 

[superseohyun]

And what if it never comes to market?

Millions of dollars donated, and at any point the plug could be pulled on the whole thing.

so? what is the problem? dont trust yu suzuki? dont fund.

Sony is supporting it as well, you say? Great! A publisher notorious for letting games slip for years and years down the road is going to ride herd on a game that, let's face it, is not going to be a blockbuster. A sure fire recipe for NOT seeing this game before 2020.

if they can let TLG survive all this year, maybe we will get to play shenmu 3 afterall!
but seriously, They are just helping a third party developer by providing a deal... they are not developing! It is not their project!

There is a general aura of excitement about this game, and sorry to shit on the fun, but there is merit to the Polygon article.

yes, but only in the sense that it would be nice to know the total budget at day 3. Nice, but not a necessity.

I also don't like the precedent this sets. Kickstarter itself says its not a corporate lapdog, but if a Nintendo came to them to help Kickstart their next console? That is way too much money for anyone to say "no" to.

Then let them come i say. If people want to donate their hardearned money to Nintendo, who am i to say no? They are already buying amiibo anyway.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Is it really that hard to understand? Budget will be indicative of the game's scope, size, systems, and production values. The source of funding will be indicative of who is calling the shots about when to ship, how to ship it, what features make it in and what gets cut.

If you don't care about the budget that's fine but the Kickstarter pitch is relatively vague and some people want more information, specifically because the amount of funding they will receive from KS is nowhere near what it will take to make a Shenmue game in the style we have been accustomed to.

But the problem here is not the amount being asked for, but people's (incorrect) interpretation of what a Kickstarter fund actually is. Kickstarter in the context of videogames isn't supposed to be about funding the entire development process. Yes, it does happen in SOME cases, but more often than not its about giving...a kickstart. Especially for games that appear bigger in scope, its natural that a KS campaign could be used to gauge interest in a title like the case is here.

 

[Ushay]

Outside sources? Wait I thought Sony was funding this one? Now I'm confused

 

[OléGunner]

Outside sources? Wait I thought Sony was funding this one? Now I'm confused

Sony is adding funding to the kickstarter money raised yes.
They will also provide full marketing support once the game is near release.

For all we know there may also be some other private investors involved too.

 

[Nose Master]

The kickstarter exists to gauge interest and get real producers. We don't need to know the exact budget for every game that exists, crowd funded or not. The idea that the money you're putting into kickstarter directly correlates to the exact cost of the game needs to go away. Game companies are never trying to do you a favor and break even after 4 years of working on something, ffs.

 

[Ahasverus]

Yu has already said he will not compromise the story to rush the ending.

lol we're fucked. Shenmue was a 5 parter wasn't it? haha.

 

[yurinka]

Adam Boyes said they will help funding and marketing it in Gamespot once they confirm with the Kickstarter that there is enough interest from the players. Gio Corsi said his Third Party Product will help where needed in the PS Twitch channel.

Obviously they won't reveal the budget or what is their money source since nobody does this both in Kickstarter and AAA gaming.

 

[Azih]

This Kickstarter is being used as the first stage of marketing the game by taking advantage of massive fan enthusiasm.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Outside sources? Wait I thought Sony was funding this one? Now I'm confused

It's Sony, Polygon is being a slowpoke

 

[ShogunX]

Surely revealing the budget would only increase the pressure on all people involved in the game? You already see how easily figures start getting thrown about at devs and games if features and releases don't come in a timely manner.

 

[kiguel182]

I think it's worse than that right now actually. For Iga's KS, they at least provided an idea of the amount of money the publisher would contribute.

Yes, I said in my post that that was handled way better and they disclosed everything right on the kickstarter page.

I was mostly talking about first impressions or the person that just looks at the kickstarter goal and nothing more.

In terms of handling Iga's KS is the way to do it even if you disagree with using kickstarter that way. At least he was upfront about it and told us how much the game would actually cost.

Shenmue's is the opposite way of that even if the end result is a positive one, people get the game they want.

 

[vg260]

You are not a consumer when you pledge to a Kickstarter. You're an investor. You're investing in somebody's business with the speculative hope that you are going to get something of value to yourself out of it in the end, whatever that may be.

Like every other type of investment on the planet, there is always the risk that you do not actually get what you hoped for in the end.

A lot of people actually have made it a point to say it's not an investment but a donation, even among those who don't think Kickstarter backers are owed any kind of budget information. So I dunno what exactly it's supposed to be considered.

I feel like some sort of ballpark budget estimate would at least be a useful thing to know for those looking to donate or invest, however it's defined just to get an idea of the game's scale. I think most people seem to think 2 million is not a lot for this type of game.

 

[Squalor]

"Thread: 'Polygon:...'

 

[Jill Sandwich]

I'm just ecstatic the game is being made. I don't give a shit if there's other sources of funding.

 

[Pizza]

I think it was pretty clear from the way they went about presenting it that they wanted to use the conference PR move to guarantee the success of the Kickstarter, and then parlay that into leverage for getting the funding they actually need. 2 million was low on purpose. They wanted to break goal reaching records.

This, /shrug

 

[Arxisz]

Can we please stop making an issue out of this? They're not obligated to tell you anything, if you want the game you can chip in, if you don't you can ignore the whole thing, nobody is putting a gun to your head ...

 

[Remachinate]

That's literally impossible to do due to the nature of game development. Hell, any sort of development. Look at Double Fine's game, guess how many people knew it was going to be split in to two parts during their funding? Probably fucking no one. Because you can't. You're asking for the impossible here. That's the thing about Kickstarter, you're not paying X to get Y, you're donating X on the promise of being delivered Y.

You understand that a budget is different from what's ultimately spent, right? What's being requested is a picture of how much money is being *committed* to the project; a reasonable estimate of what will needed to be spent and an assurance that at least that amount will be available to the developer. Sure, projects can go over-budget, and the development can run into financial difficulties down the line. But it's not unreasonable to want to confirm that Yu will get enough cash that we think he'll need to make a game at the level of the previous Shemue entries.

You are not a consumer when you pledge to a Kickstarter. You're an investor. You're investing in somebody's business with the speculative hope that you are going to get something of value to yourself out of it in the end, whatever that may be.

Like every other type of investment on the planet, there is always the risk that you do not actually get what you hoped for in the end.

The mistake you're making here is drawing parallels between buying a product and putting money forward for a Kickstarter. They're two different things. When you back a Kickstarter project you're investing in a concept/business. You're not buying anything and have absolutely zero consumer rights.

I very much disagree that Kickstarter backers are closer to investors than consumers. Investors, by definition, expect some financial return for their outlay, whereas backers merely get the good being produced. But even if they were, your argument is even weaker: investors have a right to an even greater expectation of transparency than consumers; that's why financial statements exist--so that investors can perform due diligence. Do you think Yu is going to withhold from Sony his concept of a budget? Consumers or investors, why should backers get any different treatment? They contribution has the same amount of risk.

 

[muteki]

I backed, consider it a long-term preorder. What happens outside of that is less of a concern to me.

I had a problem with MN9's subsequent fund raisers after the initial kickstarter but I don't really see that happening here.

 

[CharminUltra]

They score tons of hits with this type of farticles, ya gotta give them that.

Holy shit. This is like, my favoritest new word.

 

[M°°nblade]

And what if it never comes to market?

Millions of dollars donated, and at any point the plug could be pulled on the whole thing.

Sony is supporting it as well, you say? Great! A publisher notorious for letting games slip for years and years down the road is going to ride herd on a game that, let's face it, is not going to be a blockbuster. A sure fire recipe for NOT seeing this game before 2020.

There is a general aura of excitement about this game, and sorry to shit on the fun, but there is merit to the Polygon article.

I also don't like the precedent this sets. Kickstarter itself says its not a corporate lapdog, but if a Nintendo came to them to help Kickstart their next console? That is way too much money for anyone to say "no" to.

There is no merit. They are just trying to create an artificial controversy.

Sony is officially helping with funding and development with Shenmue 3, so there you have it. No mystery.

Also, on kickstarter: $3,173,338 and ongoing.

 

[Z3M0G]

What would have happened if the Kickstarter was barely successful... ie hit its 2M goal in the final moments on the 31st day...

Sony would have pulled out, right? Could they have cancelled the Kickstarter?

I can see more of this happening in the future... where big publishers use Kickstarter as a litmus test to gauge interest (like pre-orders)... it will surely blow up at some point.

 

[M°°nblade]

What would have happened if the Kickstarter was barely successful... ie hit its 2M goal in the final moments on the 31st day...

Sony would have pulled out, right? Could they have cancelled the Kickstarter?

I can see more of this happening in the future... where big publishers use Kickstarter as a litmus test to gauge interest (like pre-orders)... it will surely blow up at some point.

It will be interesting to see how retail sales correlate with fund behavior.
With kickstarter, developers may have been given a powerful tool to convince publishers to greenlight their 'grey' projects.

What would be funny, is if Sony agreed to fund 10 million dollar for every crowdfunded 1 million dollar above the 2 million limit.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Nobody could've seriously thought that Shenmue 3 was going to be a thing just from 2mil, could they? The KS was meant to be a gauge of interest, considering how tenuous the fate of this series has been over the last dozen years or so, there had to be a way to find out just how many people would be willing to commit to buying a continuation.

I'm honestly surprised that so many people are kicking up dust over this when before Monday S3 was the unicorn's blood of video games.