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Project Natal - controller free gaming on 360

JaggedSac

Member
gofreak said:
There's definitely still lag, but it may well be improved vs prior Ricochet demos. A frame counter could probably work it out. On the other hand this is a different app, but it's probably a better way to judge the latency of the system itself than Ricochet is (it, I'm sure, having it's own app latency that may not be optimal...this app seems like a more direct output of the library's data).

I thought that vid was more interesting as a first opportunity to judge the accuracy of the mapping, what with the skeleton overlaid on the video feed of the player.

Do some frame counting. Also, find out what display they were using so we get an idea of the latency caused by that.


Peff said:
Isn't it basically impossible to have zero lag? No matter the processing power, a computer can't "guess" what you're doing and do it in real time. I think the lag seen in the video should make everything perfectly playable, especially if it's taken into account when designing.

Yes, it is impossible. There is latency in everything. Natal processing, USB to XBox, XBox processing, XBox to TV, TV to display. Anything close to 100ms will be acceptable.
 

Mad_Ban

Member
Lag looks comparable to the Move lag (very minute but was evident on the engadget show), which was basically the minimum achievable because of TV/display causing latency.
 

pr0cs

Member
That new video looks pretty cool. I really can't wait to see if they can come up with something interesting.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Peff said:
Isn't it basically impossible to have zero lag?

It is, and they may well be running up on the minimum possible now.

It'll thus behoove the games and applications to make sure total latency accommodates a good experience. They probably won't be able to blame the system itself for that.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Raide said:
Same here. I am looking forward to what bigger games they show at E3 that have Natal support.

I agree. But I hope its not announced in the form of "Here is big game 14 that everyone is gushing over, and it will support Natal" but no actual details on the extent of the support. It would suck to get our hopes up then all Natal does is control the main menus or something silly like that.
 

Prine

Banned
Im looking forward to how Natal is going to change the way GUI are navigated. Scanning me as i walk into my living room and loading up my details is something i thought i would not experience in my 20s.

This is some mind blowing tech... looking forward to e3 more so than any other because of Natal. Its going to be huge.
 

Tom Penny

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
Since you can track a consistent volume of space, you could conceivably become the character you see on-screen...your alter ego/avatar/game character...and move around in a graphic adventure room. You would walk up to virtual objects and character to interact instead of simply operating a pointing virtual interface with your arms/hands, which you could probably also do consistently well, too.

How can you walk in a game with just motion controls and no controller without an auto walk / stop commands?
 

jett

D-Member
Mad_Ban said:
Lag looks comparable to the Move lag (very minute but was evident on the engadget show), which was basically the minimum achievable because of TV/display causing latency.

When it comes to the Move the only noticeable lag is in the video feed. The actual controls are virtually lagless, as far as I know.
 

mclaren777

Member
dominuece said:
That new video restored my faith in natal. And to think, with all the games dropping this year, I kinda forgot about natal :lol
That video actually did the opposite for me, and I'm now more worried than ever that Natal might not deliver detailed/accurate control.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
mclaren777 said:
That video actually did the opposite for me, and I'm now more worried than ever that Natal might not deliver detailed/accurate control.

It'll be fine for broad strokes stuff. Finer grained precision may improve over this demo in time though.
 
Tom Penny said:
How can you walk in a game with just motion controls and no controller without an auto walk / stop commands?
The scenario I was painting was similar to the classic point 'n click single screen or panning multi-screen rooms or areas that were designed to show everything to the player from one perspective, similar to how a stage set is meant to face one fixed direction for maximum accessibility.

Anyway, you could initiate the space being tracked in the game software by generating it with the player at the center or generate it based on the trackable area in front of the lens, stretching out to the edges of its field of view and then allow the player to move inside of the actual tracked space in front of the camera as that translates itself to the corresponding space in the virtual on-screen room. The player moving will move the corresponding player character. Obviously, since the player always has to be looking toward the camera and display to play, their player character can face in the appropriate direction during interactions and special animations that match up with item, character, or terrain in the screen irrespective of which direction the actual player is facing at that moment, though their facing could be used in specific moments distinct and made known to the player just prior to tracking actual player facing.

Only the player's position in front of the camera will translate to relative position on-screen where objects and characters that exist in the on-screen virtual space are auto-navigated around if the player moves through or stands inside of them...the way point 'n click titles move characters around impassibles by relying a bit of pure pathfinding and/or navigation nodes. If the current game screen is larger than the display, you can make the extreme edges of the trackable space in front of the camera similar to dragging you cursor to the edges of the screen in a top-view-ish interface seen in most RTS titles where you'll scroll based on cursor position.

Or you could make the player's position in front of the camera always at the center of the current game screen and simply move them based on their distance and direction from the 'home' position initiated at the start of the session. Just imagine drawing a grid from the player's position in front of the camera and then visualizing it overlaid or integrated with the game world visuals to allow the player to know where they are and how much they need to move in front of the camera to start walking in a direction (one cell away from 'home' position), running (two cells away from 'home'), or stopping in place (back to 'home'). If the grid incorporated smaller cells to occupy with just one foot or leg inside of the 'home' position, they could be the ways to turn or rotate the view. Not that different to imagining a virtual floor pad, like a DDR grid or old NES Power Pad. Except that this could be any shape and sized cells generated on-screen for the game to use for various functions of world navigation and could, of course, be changed on the fly. It only needs to be visualized consistently on-screen for the player will be necessary alongside a realtime representation of the player themselves (in avatar or other game character form) to keep them informed as to where they are and how they are moving.

Really, it wouldn't be all that different to what is possible with a standard camera in an augmented reality setup except that this isn't utilizing video feed to drive the on-screen visuals. There are also possibilities with voice commands and joint use of the game controller. Honestly, it sounds more complicated to use than it probably would be in practice, but if the basics are laid out plainly and consistently, the rest should fall into place within its limits.
 
iceatcs said:
Why can't they show Natal games or real name and RRP cost etc now?
Because, like all product launches, things aren't quite ready to show, they don't want to fully tip their hand to their competitors, and they aren't yet solid on the details themselves as they are still working out possibilities and negotiating with folks. E3 is where most of it should come out with probably a little bit held back until closer to release.
 

jaypah

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
Because, like all product launches, things aren't quite ready to show, they don't want to fully tip their hand to their competitors, and they aren't yet solid on the details themselves as they are still working out possibilities and negotiating with folks. E3 is where most of it should come out with probably a little bit held back until closer to release.

somehow i feel like he already knew all of that.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Monty Mole said:
Because that would spoil E3.
Still, I think there is nothing wrong to show now if there have more for E3. They keep repeating of these 3 tech demo.

Hopefully spare reporter will write about it in E3 otherwise everyone might jump on 3DS with 6 hours queue.
 
jaypah said:
somehow i feel like he already knew all of that.
Well, then he probably shouldn't have asked it. It's not like MS is doing something different than any other product/platform launch that anyone else does. We still don't have many of those details about Move, just a look at a lot of undercooked software.
 

jaypah

Member
MightyHedgehog said:
Well, then he probably shouldn't have asked it. It's not like MS is doing something different than any other product/platform launch that anyone else does. We still don't have many of those details about Move, just a look at a lot of undercooked software.

i'm just saying i've seen him in a few natal threads. that's a question that someone asks damn near every time and the answer hasn't changed since last E3.

iceatcs said:
Hopefully spare reporter will write about it in E3 otherwise everyone might jump on 3DS with 6 hours queue.

the fuck?
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Aye but at least we do get the PR info, the price and what game will be supported.

jaypah said:
the fuck?
If you remember E3 2005. There was infamous long Nintendo queue because Wii was demo for first time.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
iceatcs said:
Still, I think there is nothing wrong to show now if there have more for E3. They keep repeating of these 3 tech demo.

These repeated demos aren't meant for the world to see. They are meant for the individual small audiences that they present them to.

The internet just ends up broadcasting them to everyone who will watch.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
Nothing to do IQ level if you care.


I just don't understand everything must be wait for E3 and they have showed many event demo for VIP only, maybe it is media thing.
You know, I'm actually looking forward it and I just can't wait for more detail hence it is why I'm complaining because I want to know more now and I'm not VIP, just simple gamer.
 

jaypah

Member
iceatcs said:
If you remember E3 2005. There was infamous long Nintendo queue because Wii was demo for first time.

so let me get this straight. after following and reporting on Natal info scraps all year the media will suddenly not give it any press during its E3 blowout because of 3DS? that is what you're saying, right?
 

dominuece

Member
mclaren777 said:
That video actually did the opposite for me, and I'm now more worried than ever that Natal might not deliver detailed/accurate control.

Detailed and accurate is a point of concern, but I'm pretty impressed at just the stuff they showed. There is still time for improvement.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
jaypah said:
so let me get this straight. after following and reporting on Natal info scraps all year the media will suddenly not give it any press during its E3 blowout because of 3DS? that is what you're saying, right?
Not really, but it is possible for lonely blogger and only got one day pass ticket arrived 5 hours late. :p

Of course we will get the report for game sites. Don't worry.
 

jaypah

Member
iceatcs said:
Not really, but it is possible for lonely blogger and only got one day pass ticket arrived 5 hours late.

or a comet could hit his taxi. damn, MS better get those videos out now, just to be on the safe side.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
jaypah said:
or a comet could hit his taxi. damn, MS better get those videos out now, just to be on the safe side.
Or that, but actually I mean the media's impression on E3 demo, not MS's PR stuff we will get these even that blogger got hit by comet.
 

jaypah

Member
iceatcs said:
Or that, but actually I mean the media's impression on E3 demo, not MS's PR stuff we will get these even that blogger got hit by comet.

i think it'll be an exciting time and all platforms will get adequate coverage. as for impressions i doubt that journos time with 3DS will sour their Natal experience.
 

Mr.Green

Member
From a poster on Engadget who apparently was in Tel Aviv for the MS event:

mrkeyboard@Engadget said:
I was there yesterday, very nice stuff! They actually had a booth with Natal but they wouldn't let anyone get NEAR the thing (they set security around it).

The most important announcement yesterday was that the Natal doesn't only include all this fancy camera/mic stuff in it, it also contains its own processor. So it means the 360 doesnt have to do all the calculations, it's done in the device. I think that's news. Impressive!
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
iceatcs said:
Not really, but it is possible for lonely blogger and only got one day pass ticket arrived 5 hours late. :p

Of course we will get the report for game sites. Don't worry.

Microsoft have a whole day devoted to Natal before their E3 keynote so there will be lots of chances to the press play around with it.
 

iceatcs

Junior Member
jaypah said:
i think it'll be an exciting time and all platforms will get adequate coverage. as for impressions i doubt that journos time with 3DS will sour their Natal experience.
Like Old E3 time :) Maybe it is main reason they hold it for this.

D4Danger said:
Microsoft have a whole day devoted to Natal before their E3 keynote so there will be lots of chances to the press play around with it.
That's great news, sound we will get great number of impression and especially these unknown natal games too.
 

PSGames

Junior Member
InaudibleWhispa said:
Hmm, one of the bloggers at the Madrid event said the same thing!

I think these comments are referencing a different chip. There's still a chip in Natal but it's not the skeletal tracking chip that was in it originally (which is now being handled by the Xbox 360 CPU).
 

Mr.Green

Member
PSGames said:
I think these comments are referencing a different chip. There's still a chip in Natal but it's not the skeletal tracking chip that was in it originally (which is now being handled by the Xbox 360 CPU).

Well, if the Engadget poster isn't full of it, MS actually made an announcement about this chip at the event. So maybe they've made a [wait for it] 360 on the processing issue and went back to a hardware solution?

Probably wishful thinking, but the (rumored?) 10-15% CPU usage required by Natal is a lot and it wouldn't surprise me if developers pressured MS about this. I HOPE THEY DID! :D
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
Mr.Green said:
Well, if the Engadget poster isn't full of it, MS actually made an announcement about this chip at the event. So maybe they've made a [wait for it] 360 on the processing issue and went back to a hardware solution?

Probably wishful thinking, but the (rumored?) 10-15% CPU usage required by Natal is a lot and it wouldn't surprise me if developers pressured MS about this. I HOPE THEY DID! :D

Could very well be a change of mind. But the estimated price difference was something like going from a roughly $100 device to a sub $50 device. So maybe they went for higher cost and higher quality? We won't really know until the specs are officially out.
 

derFeef

Member
Mr.Green said:
Well, if the Engadget poster isn't full of it, MS actually made an announcement about this chip at the event. So maybe they've made a [wait for it] 360 on the processing issue and went back to a hardware solution?

Probably wishful thinking, but the (rumored?) 10-15% CPU usage required by Natal is a lot and it wouldn't surprise me if developers pressured MS about this. I HOPE THEY DID! :D
But it was 10-15% of one core only, if I remember that correctly.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi

jedimike

Member
Mr.Green said:
Probably wishful thinking, but the (rumored?) 10-15% CPU usage required by Natal is a lot and it wouldn't surprise me if developers pressured MS about this. I HOPE THEY DID! :D

If the processor is back in the equipment, it's more likely that MS was playing "chess" with the chip manufacturer. If they wanted to charge MS $50 per chip, MS probably told them no thanks and then had to prove they could do it without them.

Now the manufacturer is scared because they will get $0 so they start renegotitating. I'm not saying that's what happened, but more decisions are made because of political reasons than they are because of technical reasons.
 

Rad-

Member
I'm not sure if going 2 chips is that great if the price is much higher. I mean it's not like most Natal games will push 360 anyways.
 
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