PS3 Web Browser Discussion - big upgrade rumoured for long time, but no concrete news

Mar 29, 2007
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jeff_rigby said:
Anyone notice applications are loading faster after 3.7. HD indicator is not flashing as much. Can anyone confirm because there are no objective tests. I could just be imagining it.
No, you're definitely right. XMB icons load for me considerably faster than they did on previous firmware. I came in here to see if there was any discussion on the change yet.
 
Jun 19, 2005
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jeff_rigby said:
No, I'm 60 with several deaths in the family I had to discover so my sleep schedule is pretty much shot. I'm guessing that you were looking at post times.

Really I have to shake my head at many of the posts....such anger and celebration of ignorance. Life is too short to be so serious sometimes.

Believe it or not I appreciate being corrected because I learn something new. There is no ego in my posts other than my name attached and I don't' want to reflect badly on it so I make an effort to be correct. Sometimes I post without thinking everything through and I get jumped on, which I deserve <grin>.
Say what ??!!! You're 60 ?
I was way off in my guesstimate. :lol

No worries, grandpa jeff. Next time someone put you down in this thread, I'll smack them for you.
... as long as the noise to signal level is low

Kevin Butler says your generation play with hoops and sticks. I'll send you a chatroom invite too so you can hang out with us. We pretty much argue with each other every day. XD

What is your PSN ID ?
 
Aug 7, 2010
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Valkyr Junkie said:
No, you're definitely right. XMB icons load for me considerably faster than they did on previous firmware. I came in here to see if there was any discussion on the change yet.
I'm noticing Video Chat loads much faster, links to the web browser load faster (No it's not webkit), can't test Home as Sony is down for maintenance. Several other changes I'm feeling have been made but can't pin down. Looks like the XMB is always loaded and applications are running on top of the desktop sorta like a browser desktop.

Home doesn't load any faster.

Edit: Speculation

After 3.7 and somewhat before, the XMB stays resident for some applications. Chat loads MUCH faster, Browser loads much faster (systemd like feature, snapshot loading of both program and registers) and upon exit the XMB is available almost instantly. The same is not true for Home (maybe because of size, this would also indicate it's not snapshot loaded so no automatic systemd like but a Sony manual implementation of the same feature for programs that are small and don't change).

What's New shows several features that could be Cairo and GTKtoolkit, it's also possible to do the same with custom code. All this would be true if the XMB is now a browser desktop or planned implementation is partial now (browser is still not webkit). Why? waiting on webkit 2, gstreamer 1.0?

Browser desktop = Zooming interface = webkit and support libraries always loaded & Cairo based screen. Beyond that using the webkit tools & libraries (multiple ways). Notice the use of zooming to indicate selected menu options.

XMB is XML but cairo backend (guess based on 3.0 features & what's new) Torne looking SVG released March 2010. Firmware 3.5 September 2010 we knew had to use Cairo, we assumed cairo was part of 3.5 but it must have been in the PS3 earlier (probably sept 2009 with Firmware 3.0).

"What's new" = Pixman features (in Cairo) and 3.0 screen animation with fog and X-O-Triangle floating in screen. Same features in Home's LUA 1.4 fog, rain, shader features but using less memory = Lua with Cairo bindings.

More changes coming when webkit becomes active. Currently all icons and pictures are pixel based as is the XMB and Themes. Change to SVG will occur later.

XMB may remain in a recognizable form, surprise. Expect hidden options for different controllers. Many options now with OS changes/upgrades to Gnome 3.2 standards. XMB is remotely configurable and some submenus may be HTML5 server driven.

Biggest is any rewritten applications of small size may work as we now have with XMB always resident and very fast loads. Most webkit or hybrid applications will be small.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29926810&postcount=723 Totally missed this the first time I read the article.

"start with Bing and YouTube integration into the Xbox 360" This means a web browser is coming to the Xbox doesn't it? Bing Search engine would mean a browser....could be a Google TV like search for only video movies.

In either case it supports features Sony will have to match or already had plans to implement which supports the Google TV rumor and/or Sony GTKwebkit browser coming.
 
Feb 10, 2007
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jeff_rigby said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29926810&postcount=723 Totally missed this the first time I read the article.

"start with Bing and YouTube integration into the Xbox 360" This means a web browser is coming to the Xbox doesn't it? Bing Search engine would mean a browser....could be a Google TV like search for only video movies.

In either case it supports features Sony will have to match or already had plans to implement which supports the Google TV rumor and/or Sony GTKwebkit browser coming.
You don't need GTK to use webkit. The engine has ports for QT, GTK, Windows, OS X etc. and likely if Sony did port it, it wouldn't be using GTK. They'd probably write their own lightweight backend appropriate to their OS.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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DrXym said:
You don't need GTK to use webkit. The engine has ports for QT, GTK, Windows, OS X etc. and likely if Sony did port it, it wouldn't be using GTK. They'd probably write their own lightweight backend appropriate to their OS.
All correct but they are porting GTKwebkit. Care to speculate why they would port the GTKtoolkit <grin>. Currently GTKtoolkit is not being used with the IPTV applications which proves that for stand alone one application at a time (no windows or topping, no chrome needed) you are correct. This is currently how the Netfront browser and IPTV work. The 2 meg min seen in the smallest IPTV application (Hulu) must contain the "lightweight backend" framework for IPTV applications.

There is a discussion going on between androvsky and myself as to what besides a webkit browser is coming. You just provided another argument for my side <big grin>. Chrome, windows topping each other, multiple windows on screen etc. are supported by the GTK toolkit. That is a departure from the one application at a time PS3 model.

androvsky gave as an argument for using GTKtoolkit, implementing a common UI theme across platforms but GTKtoolkit is not on 2011 Sony TVs and Blu-ray players. Sony in the webkit diff files did rework many of the GTK based Chrome UIs and called them POSIX themes. So I expect a common UI theme is going to be implemented but obviously it should not require GTKtoolkit.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=27697080&postcount=410

Subject: Add PS3 target to Webkit build configure

Signed-off-by: Geoff Levand <geoff.levand@am.sony.com>
---

configure.ac | 15 ++++++++++++---
1 file changed, 12 insertions(+), 3 deletions(-)

--- a/configure.ac
+++ b/configure.ac
@@ -170,13 +170,13 @@ AC_SUBST([PNG_LIBS])
# determine the GDK/GTK+ target.................................This is the key to understanding what's coming *GTK+ webkit* http://www.webkitgtk.org/
AC_MSG_CHECKING([the target windowing system])
AC_ARG_WITH(target,
- AC_HELP_STRING([--with-target=@<:mad:x11/win32/quartz/directfb@:>@],
+ AC_HELP_STRING([--with-target=@<:mad:x11/win32/quartz/directfb/ps3@:>@],
[Select webkit target [default=x11]]),
[],[with_target="x11"])

case "$with_target" in
- x11|win32|quartz|directfb) ;;
- *) AC_MSG_ERROR([Invalid target: must be x11, quartz, win32, or directfb.]) ;;
+ x11|win32|quartz|directfb|ps3) ;;
+ *) AC_MSG_ERROR([Invalid target: must be x11, quartz, win32, directfb, or ps3.]) ;; PS3 = custom PSGL or OpenGL
esac

AC_MSG_RESULT([$with_target])
@@ -196,6 +196,8 @@ if test "$with_hildon" = "yes"; then
AC_SUBST([HILDON_LIBS]) This may be why several of the IPTV apps look the same.
fi

+if test "$with_target" != "ps3";
+
# minimum base dependencies
LIBSOUP_REQUIRED_VERSION=2.28.2
CAIRO_REQUIRED_VERSION=1.6
@@ -281,6 +283,8 @@ AC_SUBST(GTK_LIBS)
AC_SUBST(CAIRO_CFLAGS)
AC_SUBST(CAIRO_LIBS)
And there is more in the libraries listed.
$(CAIRO_LIBS) \ Cairo SVG library
+ $(COVERAGE_LDFLAGS) \
+ $(ENCHANT_LIBS) \...............Front end API for a spell checker and more. Needed because of multiple language spell checker backends
+ $(FREETYPE_LIBS) \...............Default Font Library & Pango is supposed to be included in latest version
+ $(GAIL_LIBS) \......................GNOME Accessibility Implementation Library Moving to GTK_libs, will be part of GTKtoolkit with 3.2
+ $(GEOCLUE_LIBS) \...............No need for this on the PS3, NGP will use!
+ $(GLIB_LIBS) \......................low level C cross platform lib (needed for just about everything webkit & cairo & Gstreamer)
+ $(GSTREAMER_LIBS) \...........Gstreamer AV library *
+ $(GTK_LIBS) \.......................GTK toolkit library Implements many of the Xwindows GDK wrapper functions without needing Xwindows or GDK
+ $(HILDON_LIBS) \..................Icons and control panels (touchscreen
+ $(JPEG_LIBS) \......................Jpeg compression picture library (Video too?)
+ $(LIBSOUP_LIBS) \................HTTP library
+ $(LIBXML_LIBS) \..................Extensible Markup Language XMB is written using XML (fact) with Cairo backend and is remotely configurable (As of 3.0 Speculation)
+ $(LIBXSLT_LIBS) \
+ $(PANGO_LIBS) \...................International Fonts Cairo-pango = SVG international fonts eventually to be part of Freetype above.
+ $(PNG_LIBS) \.......................PNG picture library
+ $(SQLITE3_LIBS) \.................Data Base Library

+ $(UNICODE_LIBS) \
+ $(XT_LIBS) \.........................Xwindows libraries?
+ $(WINMM_LIBS) \..................Windows Multi-Media library ?
+ $(SHLWAPI_LIBS) \ wrapper functions convert the Unicode input string parameters to ANSI and call ANSI versions of functions
+ $(OLE32_LIBS)
Remember this published in 2007 and posted in this thread twice before:
The GTK port of the WebKit HTML rendering engine has gained support for the HTML5 video element. The media backend, which uses GStreamer, was implemented by Pierre-Luc Beaudoin of Collabora. Developer Alp Toker integrated the backend with GTk/WebKit's Cairo graphics pipeline, making it possible for the video content to be embedded in SVG and manipulated with CSS and JavaScript.

Plans for GStreamer-based HTML5 video support in GTK/WebKit were initially revealed by Toker in September, when he published slides from his presentation at LinuxConf Europe.

As some of you may recall, support for the HTML5 video element was implemented experimentally for Firefox back in August.

The GTK/WebKit port appears to be maturing rapidly and offers some unique advantages over Firefox's Gecko rendering engine in certain contexts. GTK/WebKit is lightweight and less resource intensive than Gecko, which makes it a particularly good choice for mobile and embedded environments. GTK/WebKit will also eventually be a very good solution for GTK and GNOME applications that want lightweight embedded HTML rendering.
Recursive logic but Gnome mobile applications are pretty much POSIX compatible across platforms and GTKwebkit support libraries are pretty much Gnome Mobile. So any platform that has a GTKwebkit ported to it can support a VERY easy port of a Gnome 3.2 desktop or Gnome Mobile application.
 

Killthee

helped a brotha out on multiple separate occasions!
Jun 6, 2004
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jeff_rigby said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29926810&postcount=723 Totally missed this the first time I read the article.

"start with Bing and YouTube integration into the Xbox 360" This means a web browser is coming to the Xbox doesn't it? Bing Search engine would mean a browser....could be a Google TV like search for only video movies.

In either case it supports features Sony will have to match or already had plans to implement which supports the Google TV rumor and/or Sony GTKwebkit browser coming.
It's not a browser, it's a Google TV like search for games and video content. They announced it during their E3 press conference a couple of months ago, it's a unified search engine for XBLM, YouTube, Netflix, Hulu+, and other content providers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_WaaLH7FWk
 
jeff_rigby said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=29926810&postcount=723 Totally missed this the first time I read the article.

"start with Bing and YouTube integration into the Xbox 360" This means a web browser is coming to the Xbox doesn't it? Bing Search engine would mean a browser....could be a Google TV like search for only video movies.

In either case it supports features Sony will have to match or already had plans to implement which supports the Google TV rumor and/or Sony GTKwebkit browser coming.
No browser. It was revealed and demoed at E3. It's some shitty Bing-rate search that will be built into the system OS to search for games and movies.

EDIT: Beaten like a bitch.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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Killthee said:
It's not a browser, it's a Google TV like search for games and video content. They announced it during their E3 press conference a couple of months ago, it's a unified search engine for XBLM, YouTube, Netflix, Hulu+, and other content providers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_WaaLH7FWk
Thanks....so Google TV like functionality on the Xbox & more IPTV but still no browser. Perhaps the rumor of Google TV coming to the PS3 is accurate.

RVU and AllVid are going to be big features, there must be plans for their support within the next 6 months or so.
 
Nov 26, 2006
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Hey guys, I did a little googling and stumbled upon this:

1 /*
2 * PS3 System Manager.
3 *
4 * Copyright (C) 2007 Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.
5 * Copyright 2007 Sony Corp.
6 *
7 * This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
8 * it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
9 * the Free Software Foundation; version 2 of the License.
10 *
11 * This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
12 * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
13 * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the
14 * GNU General Public License for more details.
15 *
16 * You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
17 * along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software
18 * Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
19 */
20
32 /**
33 * ps3_sys_manager - PS3 system manager driver.
34 *
35 * The system manager provides an asynchronous system event notification
36 * mechanism for reporting events like thermal alert and button presses to
37 * guests. It also provides support to control system shutdown and startup.
38 *
39 * The actual system manager is implemented as an application running in the
40 * system policy module in lpar_1. Guests communicate with the system manager
41 * through port 2 of the vuart using a simple packet message protocol.
42 * Messages are comprised of a fixed field header followed by a message
43 * specific payload.
44 */
45 *
126 * The guest tells the system manager which events it is interested in receiving
127 * notice of by sending the system manager a logical OR of notification
128 * attributes via the ps3_sys_manager_send_attr() routine.
129 */
130
131 *
215 * The guest completes the actions needed, then acks or naks the command via
216 * ps3_sys_manager_send_response(). In the case of @PS3_SM_CMD_SHUTDOWN,
217 * the guest must be fully prepared for a system poweroff prior to acking the
218 * command.
219 */
220
226 /**
227 * ps3_sm_force_power_off - Poweroff helper.
228 *
229 * A global variable used to force a poweroff when the power button has
230 * been pressed irrespective of how init handles the ctrl_alt_del signal.
231 *
232 */
236 /**
237 * ps3_sys_manager_write - Helper to write a two part message to the vuart.
238 *
239 */
331 /**
332 * ps3_sys_manager_send_request_shutdown - Send 'request' to the system manager.
333 *
334 * The guest sends this message to request an operation or action of the system
335 * manager. The reply is a command message from the system manager. In the
336 * command handler the guest performs the requested operation. The result of
337 * the command is then communicated back to the system manager with a response
338 * message.
339 *
340 * Currently, the only supported request is the 'shutdown self' request.
341 */
342
632 /**
633 * ps3_sys_manager_final_restart - The final platform machine_restart routine.
634 *
635 * This routine never returns. The routine disables asynchronous vuart reads
636 * then spins calling ps3_sys_manager_handle_msg() to receive and acknowledge
637 * the shutdown command sent from the system manager. Soon after the
638 * acknowledgement is sent the lpar is destroyed by the HV. This routine
639 * should only be called from ps3_restart() through ps3_sys_manager_ops.restart.
640 */
http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/ps3/ps3-sys-manager.c

This appears to be some kind of new "System Manager" for PS3. I believe this will replace the XMB with an Asynchronous GPL Poweroff Helper. Apparently, this new Asynchronous Helper has something to do with the web technology called "AJAX". AJAX is a Web2.0 technology supported by Android OS, which also runs GPL GNU. So it looks like the next PS3 firmware will support Android through this new "System Manager", which very likely will support GNU POSIX as well. It's unclear whether the SystemManager can swap between Android, POSIX, and Games on the fly, or will require a reboot. Based on the code, I'd say it will require a reboot.

If you look at the code above, it says something about requesting a shutdown. So probably when you want to access Android, you'll have to request a shutdown to start up the new OS. It also says "final_shutdown", so it looks like Sony can brick your system for good if they catch you tampering with the System Manager.
 

JJD

Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Why people continue to waste their time trolling jeff or this thread??? No need to post here if you think all this stuff is some random bullshit.

Isn't this against the TOS? If you got nothing to contribute, if you don't want to participate in the discussion don't post shit in here.

If the thread isn't locked by now the mods probably think it's the discussion here is OK, even if it's just speculation. Let the guy be.
 
Utako said:
Yes. It was interesting at first - not anymore.

Please stop posting until something pops up on Engadget.
It may not be interesting to you, but most of the stuff Jeff posts are pure fact. Sure he mixes in speculation in there once in a while, but these facts point to something. Whether they are truly working on something to be released for the PS3 or doing prep work for a PS4 with a "super" cell, has yet to be seen.
 

JJD

Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Deadly Cyclone said:
Every time I see this thread bumped I die a little inside.
You must be a masochist. I mean, what you're doing in here? Did someone make you click in this thread?

Utako said:
Yes. It was interesting at first - not anymore.

Please stop posting until something pops up on Engadget.
Gaf's a big forum there's plenty of nice threads, please do something productive with your time and let the ones who enjoy the discussion in here be at peace.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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http://www.1up.com/news/vita-ram-wasnt-downgraded-reach-24999-price said:
Sony issued a press release today talking about Vita's social media support -- namely, it will support Foursquare along with Facebook, Twitter, and Skype. It also lists many of Vita's internal specs, including the fact that Vita sports 512MB of RAM along with 128MB of dedicated VRAM.
Vita with 512 meg of ram can support more applications and the list of those Sony feels important enough to mention has the Vita with "Phone" like social applications.

Sony, earlier this year, mentioned the Vita would not double as a phone and many felt that was a mistake. In typical Sony fashion they failed to mention that the Vita would support Skype (which can call both land line and cell phones for a minimal fee) and party chat which is a cross game chat so the need for true phone ability is not much of a loss. If the rumors I've read are true, going forward, Skype will be everywhere (on TVs) and audio only phone calls a thing of the past. Edit: Voice only Skype at this time mentioned, not finished? http://blogs.skype.com/en/2011/08/skype_is_everywhere_will_be_av.html



They also mentioned that the Vita would not have a video out and many were also thinking that was a mistake. We find out later that Vita will support DLNA and not confirmed but probable DLNA 1.5 as a controller-player-server. With that ability and DLNA players in just about every set top box and new TV it's not a loss to not have Video out ability on the Vita. See WiFi Direct

Edit: DLNA 1.5 is a 2006 standard, Sony started the DLNA committee and pushed to have DLNA accepted as a industry standard. WiFi Direct which Sony is going to support in their upper end cameras and DLNA 1.5 are part and parcel of the same supported features set and the PS3 will have to support this also (I didn't mention the PS3 above as this is speculation). I was being VERY conservative as new platforms are supporting DLNA 1.5. Most or maybe all handhelds are also supporting controller functionality as are new upper end cameras with DLNA ability.

I just do not understand Sony......Someone is thinking these thing through but it's not getting out through sales.

There is a very-very good chance that the PS3 will get the same applications the Vita gets so the 512 meg memory and the 4 social applications (except foursquare which requires GPS) and Party (cross game chat) is good news for the PS3. Edit: Confirmed in a developer PDF. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30205855&postcount=752
Making PlayStation Network development easier
• PlayStation Network wrapper library
• Provides a simple interface to the PlayStation Network libraries
• Part of the PS Vita SDK
• Coming to PS3 soon
• Quicker development of online gaming features
http://research.scee.net/files/presentations/develop2011/BuildingCommunitywithPlayStationNetwork.pdf

List of Initial Vita apps, more coming:http://ie.playstation.com/psvita/#select-tab-apps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_Direct said:
Wi-Fi Direct essentially embeds a software access point, or "soft AP", into any device that wishes to support Direct.[3] The soft AP provides a version of Wi-Fi Protected Setup with its push-button or PIN-based setup.

When a device enters the range of the Wi-Fi Direct host, it can connect to it using the existing ad-hoc protocol, and then gather setup information using a Protected Setup-style transfer.[3] Connection and setup is so simplified that some suggest it may replace Bluetooth in some situations.[5]

Soft AP's can be as simple or as complex as the role requires. A digital picture frame might provide only the most basic services needed to allow digital cameras to connect and upload images. A smart phone that allows data tethering might run a more complex soft AP that adds the ability to bridge to the Internet. The standard also includes WPA2 security and features to control access within corporate networks.[3] Wi-Fi Direct-certified devices can connect one-to-one or one-to-many and not all connected products need to be Wi-Fi Direct-certified. One Wi-Fi Direct enabled device can connect to legacy Wi-Fi certified devices.

The Wi-Fi Direct certification program is developed and administered by the Wi-Fi Alliance, the industry group that develops the standards suite underlying the Wi-Fi CERTIFIED certification program and owns the "Wi-Fi" trademark. The final specification has not been released,[6] and certain aspects of the system have not been mentioned to date. For instance, the system used for discovery and device classification, an analogue of UPnP or Bonjour, has not been mentioned in existing references.

Devices supporting the new standard are expected to appear in late 2010,[6] although some companies announced support in late 2009.[7] One of the first certified devices is the Galaxy S smartphone (GT-I9000). (Nov 2010)
The Vita - PS3 must support WiFI Direct for no-lag gameplay and most likely DLNA. A two hop wireless DLNA play through a home Router is not reliable.
 
Nov 26, 2006
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jeff_rigby said:
They also mentioned that the Vita would not have a video out and many were also thinking that was a mistake. We find out later that Vita will support DLNA and not confirmed but probable DLNA 1.5 as a controller-player-server. With that ability and DLNA players in just about every set top box and new TV it's not a loss to not have Video out ability on the Vita.
See Direct WiFi
"It may not be interesting to you, but most of the stuff Jeff posts are pure fact."
 
Feb 4, 2005
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I just want somebody to start a new thread when any real news will come. Since sure, the stuff that's being posted is interesting, but it's only speculation and news about "what Sony may be doing to have Webkit on PS3". And I'm always checking this thread with hope, that we might finally get some REAL info from Sony, instead of speculation on their job posting, random comments on mailing lists, etc.
 
Mar 22, 2007
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theBishop said:
"It may not be interesting to you, but most of the stuff Jeff posts are pure fact."
"We find out later that Vita will support DLNA and not confirmed but probable DLNA 1.5 as a controller-player-server." In other words, he was speculating :) I see nothing wrong with that.


Datrio said:
I just want somebody to start a new thread when any real news will come. Since sure, the stuff that's being posted is interesting, but it's only speculation and news about "what Sony may be doing to have Webkit on PS3". And I'm always checking this thread with hope, that we might finally get some REAL info from Sony, instead of speculation on their job posting, random comments on mailing lists, etc.
That is the reason why it is being posted in this thread since it is mostly speculation. Not much need to make a new thread if there is just more speculation regarding the same things. But if something big is being confirmed, it will most likely be a new thread about it.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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test_account said:
"We find out later that Vita will support DLNA and not confirmed but probable DLNA 1.5 as a controller-player-server." In other words, he was speculating :) I see nothing wrong with that.

That is the reason why it is being posted in this thread since it is mostly speculation. Not much need to make a new thread if there is just more speculation regarding the same things. But if something big is being confirmed, it will most likely be a new thread about it.
There is speculation and then an effort to confirm speculation. For instance my last post was information that confirmed the Brasil slide that had a picture with a Skype, DLNA, & WiFI Logo as well as icons for picture, music and movie viewing. At the time everyone was unsure if the Brasil picture was accurate because Skype hadn't been mentioned in any other Sony Press release on the Vita. The WiFi Logo on the Brazil Slide might indicate Certified WiFi Direct.

Both "What's New" and the new IPTV XMB option are server driven (probably XML SOAP) with user choice, in the case of the XMB IPTV having persistence. You can prove this for yourself by unplugging your LAN network or turning off WiFI, the IPTV choice Icon will not work.

The PS3 XMB is a XML UI menu (fact). Soap and Soup are required parts of the PS3 OS to support XML, DLNA, Plug and Play as well as GTKWebkit.

From the Sony provided list of GTKwebkit libraries:

+ $(LIBSOUP_LIBS) \................HTTP library
+ $(LIBXML_LIBS) \..................Extensible Markup Language XMB is written using XML (fact) with Cairo bindings (As of 3.0 Speculation) and is remotely configurable

If the XMB is XML and with SOAP can communicate with servers and can have customized server driven UIs then why does it need HTML5 or webkit? HTML5 provides for a more powerful upper level language allowing a easy to use (for programmers) and familiar to many interface to display information. For instance Pango can be used to provide automatic left right text formatting, Playview can be used in a XMB submenu, a mini text editor for Email only uses a few lines of code and webkit, Text Chat the same and on and on.
http://www.xmlfiles.com/xml/xml_intro.asp said:
The main difference between XML and HTML

XML is not a replacement for HTML.
XML and HTML were designed with different goals:

XML was designed to describe data and to focus on what data is.
HTML was designed to display data and to focus on how data looks.

HTML is about displaying information, XML is about describing information.
In Beyond 3D several speculated that the PS3 XMB when it had support for a browser desktop could/would support HTML5 UI static or server driven SubMenus. I put forward an obvious use, a user choice of the more than 400 free IPTV channels from a Sony server that would then show up on the XMB. Well we now have something like that but it probably is unfinished and now probably a Sony custom XML instead of HTML5 which I expect is coming to provide more information on the many possibles like we see with the Netflix HTML5 UI and movies or in this short clip on Bravia Internet Video.

I expect someone to bring up; "How do you know more IPTV is coming?" One of the posts recently made by me, some consider off topic, is a Sony Job posting to develop multiple IPTV applications. Developing a IPTV application that does not need DRM is extremely easy (Sony's Crackle is an example), you just need a URL address and partial web browser. There is also the two blank windows that are in the IPTV chooser, a hint that more is coming. Only two, I think not and most likely the IPTV choices will be custom for different regions.



Selecting a IPTV icon after it becomes a part of the XMB (Moves out of the menu pool of available IPTV to the XMB) runs the IPTV application which in the case of HULU uses HTML5 webkit, or rather the parts needed (javascript engine which is part of the core webkit) and a Marlin DRM gstreamer player, both which might already be loaded for the XMB browser desktop resulting in VERY fast very small IPTV applications. For the current Netflix, the webkit and support libraries used by Netflix are loaded, they are being steadily replaced as Netflix uses more of the webkit tools provided by Sony.

Right now Sony appears to only be using the parts of the webkit core (includes javascript) that won't API change with Webkit2 or GTK3.2. After webkit 2 and GTK toolkit become active, opening a HTML5 window in any of the XMB sub menus requires very little code and will use very little additional memory. The same would apply to any application based on webkit and support libraries.

Currently the Playstation store is XML with much of Store menus and structure part of Firmware and resident on the PS3 Hard Disk. IF the above is true then the reports of a new Store design if HTML5 UI will not be implemented until Sony starts using Webkit in the XMB.

Currently choosing options from the XMB or "What's new" that require a browser runs the Netfront browser and takes about 7 seconds to load. After the webkit browser and GTK become active the time to load a browser should vastly decrease as most of it except for the 70K or so front end will already be in memory as part of the browser desktop.

And the above description of how I expect webkit tools to be integrated into the PS3 can be confirmed only when HTML5 windows appear in XMB submenus and take almost no time, except for the Server to provide them, to appear. HTML5 sub menus can also be static and not require a server connection.
 
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test_account said:
"We find out later that Vita will support DLNA and not confirmed but probable DLNA 1.5 as a controller-player-server." In other words, he was speculating :) I see nothing wrong with that.
If you knew what any of that means, you'd know its nonsense.

This is why Jeff is so annoying. He misuses technical jargon to spread misinformation and you can't tell the difference. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt that it's not on purpose. But he wont stop.
 
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onQ123 said:
what do you make of this?

http://onq-world.blogspot.com/2011/08/playstation-vita-coding-building.html

it's other stuff in the PDFs but I thought this supported your idea of the PS3 getting a big update
It supports a large PSNetwork update which is going to support all Sony platforms including the PS3. I'm speculating that network related means at the very least it will use the new webkit browser, browser desktop, applications built with browser tools like Video chat etc..

Sony says this is the "initial" set of Vita apps with many more to come and the above seems to imply the PS3 will get many of these also: http://ie.playstation.com/psvita/#select-tab-apps

Thanks for posting, it does support in part what I've been saying and also androvsky. How it's implemented, (androvsky) one at a time or (jeff_rigby) from a browser desktop XMB, browser tools always loaded in the application side and snapshot loaded upon boot.


Good find!
 
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There is speculation and then an effort to confirm speculation. For instance my last post was information that confirmed the Brasil slide that had a picture with a Skype, DLNA, & WiFI Logo as well as icons for picture, music and movie viewing. At the time everyone was unsure if the Brasil picture was accurate because Skype hadn't been mentioned in any other Sony Press release on the Vita. The WiFi Logo on the Brazil Slide might indicate Certified WiFi Direct.

Both "What's New" and the new IPTV XMB option are server driven (probably XML SOAP) with user choice, in the case of the XMB IPTV having persistence. You can prove this for yourself by unplugging your LAN network or turning off WiFI, the IPTV choice Icon will not work.

The PS3 XMB is a XML UI menu (fact). Soap and Soup are required parts of the PS3 OS to support XML, DLNA, Plug and Play as well as GTKWebkit.

From the Sony provided list of GTKwebkit libraries:

+ $(LIBSOUP_LIBS) \................HTTP library
+ $(LIBXML_LIBS) \..................Extensible Markup Language XMB is written using XML (fact) with Cairo bindings (As of 3.0 Speculation) and is remotely configurable

If the XMB is XML and with SOAP can communicate with servers and can have customized server driven UIs then why does it need HTML5 or webkit? HTML5 provides for a more powerful upper level language allowing a easy to use (for programmers) and familiar to many interface to display information. For instance Pango can be used to provide automatic left right text formatting, Playview can be used in a XMB submenu, a mini text editor for Email only uses a few lines of code and webkit, Text Chat the same and on and on.
Sure, i didnt mean to say that it is speculation based on nothing, i just ment to say until it is confirmed by Sony themself, it will remain to be speculation (nothing wrong with that in my opinion). But of course much of the speculation might be quite accurate and actually happen. Only time will tell :)


theBishop said:
If you knew what any of that means, you'd know its nonsense.

This is why Jeff is so annoying. He misuses technical jargon to spread misinformation and you can't tell the difference. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt that it's not on purpose. But he wont stop.
I havnt followed this thread that much, so i cant speak much about this thread in general. But in that one particular sentence that i quoted, it had both "not confirmed" and "probable" in it, so i took it as he ment it as speculation at least. So i just wanted to say that i saw nothing wrong with that :)
 
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test_account said:
I havnt followed this thread that much, so i cant speak much about this thread in general. But in that one particular sentence that i quoted, it had both "not confirmed" and "probable" in it, so i took it as he ment it as speculation at least. So i just wanted to say that i saw nothing wrong with that :)
Yeah, he does speculate. He speculates on the significance of things he clearly doesn't understand.

Suppose you asked me if a Whale is a Tiger, and I say "well, it's got horns, wings, and gills, so I'm guessing it's a Tiger", is that useful speculation?
 
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I went back and edited my post to include links to a DLNA whitepaper so that anyone who reads my post can correct me if it's in error.

From a Developer PDF slide show (referenced previously) and provided by onQ123 in a thread on NeoGAF, Sony is implementing PS3-Vita remote play. It follows that the following might be supported for the Vita served from the PS3 operating as a DLNA player remote playing to the Vita anywhere inside the home )DTCP=IP is DRM inside the home network only). I.E. Access from the home CableBox DVR and tuner, Sony or others Blu-ray/DVR boxes and more to the Vita via the PS3 connected to the home network.

The ability of DLNA to deliverable workable interoperability
guidelines in less than 12 months is largely due to the pioneering
efforts of the Universal Plug and Play Forum (UPnP Forum). The
UPnP Forum, http://www.upnp.org/ was established by 14 major PC
and CE manufacturers in 1999. Founding members include Microsoft,
Intel, HP, Sony, Canon and Panasonic, and today it has more than 800
member companies from industries as diverse as personal computers,
consumer electronics, telecom, home automation, security, printing,
photography, and building controls.

The mission of the Forum is simple: interoperability between devices using industry standards. To that end, the Forum selected TCP/IP as the basis for all network
connectivity
. Added to TCP/IP were Web standards such as HTTP, HTML, XML, and SOAP that provided the framework for device discovery, device and services description, control, and presentation.

With the core architecture defined, the Forum established a series of
working groups to define device and service profiles for specific
device categories. These categories include Audio/Video (AV),
Internet Gateway Device (IGD), Printing, Scanning, Lighting Control,
HVAC, and a number of others. The working groups – composed of
member companies from relevant industries – delivered a series of
XML schemas representing the baseline set of functions and services
that each specific device type was required to support.
LONDON, May 23, 2011 /PRNewswire/ -- The Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) today announced the release of new Interoperability Guidelines for the playback of high-quality, premium commercial video. Announced at this week's Connected Home Global Summit 2011 in London, the new standard addresses the increasing demand for simplified access to premium commercial content throughout the home, including movies and network television programming. Developed in conjunction with global cable, satellite and telecommunications service providers, the Interoperability Guidelines leverage DTCP-IP Protected Streaming to make service provider content more easily available for playback across digital televisions, Blu-ray disc players, game consoles and set-top boxes.
This I assume is related to AllVid and RVU. Anything DLNA certified can easily be upgraded to support AllVid and RVU. The PS3 already supports DTCP-IP Edit: DTCP-IP was added to the PS3 with Firmware 3.21 which also removed Other OS Linux; related, security DRM issue?
PORTLAND, OR - July 19, 2011 - The Digital Living Network Alliance (DLNA) experienced unprecedented growth in the number of DLNA Certified® televisions during the first quarter of 2011, certifying more than 1,000 models in North America, Europe, Korea and Japan. The number of television models Certified by the Alliance in the first three months of the year was greater than the total number Certified in the first four years of the program. There are now more than 4,000 Certified television models available, providing consumers with a convenient way to connect and enjoy content throughout the digital home.
I assume that most are preparing for a new level of sharing between devices on the home network.

engadget 2011/05/30 said:
The latest set of Interoperability Guidelines from the Digital Living Network Alliance have been released and the group claims the new standard has been developed with the blessing of global cable, satellite and telecom TV services and will let people stream content more easily around the home. Ideally, this means we'll see cable boxes that pop up just like any other DLNA server on the network, and can stream to the numerous other devices that support the standard and DTCP-IP protected content. We've already seen demonstrations of tru2way boxes with DLNA servers built in, and this press release trots out execs from CableLabs, Comcast, Time Warner, and Cox to talk about how awesome it is (again, just like they did at the 2010 CES) and how it will make their services better. Of course, the last six months have shown some progress in the areas of video sharing at home and abroad, but we'll need to see some real implementations and not just teasers before we're sure it's really coming home this time.
Froehlich continues, "In the first wave, several US satellite and cable operators are looking to replace set-top boxes with what are essentially digital media adapters (DMAs)—an MPEG-4 AVC decoder with a network interface and nothing else. In the second wave, it appears that Samsung has taken the lead in adding all of the functions of the pay-TV DMAs (DLNA, DTCP-IP, and a remote UI standard such as RVU or CEA-2014) to many of their televisions, eliminating the need for a set-top box entirely. It will also be possible for most PCs to install pay-TV DMA software, allowing the PC to finally serve as the bedroom TV."
There is so much happening NOW that we have been reading about for two years, makes you think.

http://www.dlna.org/about_us/roadmap/DLNA_Whitepaper.pdf

At the present time, Skype on the Vita is voice only. The Vita video chat is not compatible with the PS3 video chat so for the Vita to video chat with the PS3 requires a new video chat application for the PS3.

Sony needs to upgrade the PS3 DLNA to work with the Vita as a DLNA controller and I suspect Sony will upgrade the DLNA using Rygel from Collabora as it's free and gstreamer based and will more easily remote play to the Vita. (Adaptive streaming is supported)
 
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I guess I can now talk about this:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-08-19-why-the-ps3-cant-do-cross-game-voice-chat

Cross-game voice chat is not possible on the PlayStation 3 because of memory restrictions, Sony has revealed.

The PS3's RAM is gobbled up by the games it runs, which prevents the much-desired feature from being implemented, Sony Worldwide Studios president Shuhei Yoshida told Eurogamer.

"Once a game gets RAM we never give it back," he said. "It's not possible to retrofit something like that after the fact."

As revealed by Eurogamer yesterday, PS Vita, due out in Europe early next year, actually has more RAM than the PS3.

Vita has 512MB of RAM and 128MB of V-RAM, compared to the PS3's 256MB of system RAM and 256MB of video RAM. This enables features such as cross-game voice chat to run in the background while games are being played.

On the PS3, however, things are different.

"The game has to use its own memory to do [in-game voice chat]. There's always voice chat in the game. But it's a part of a game feature. It's not a part of an OS feature. That's the reason in terms of the ability to have voice chat across different games."

So, voice chat is better on Vita than PS3?

"We totally agree!" Yoshida replied.
http://forums.n4g.com/Cross-game-chat-and-why-its-currently-MIA-m700070.aspx

super_secret said:
2009 I promised you all an update on Cross-Game chat, so here it is.

And you're not going to like it.


As I told you before, Cross-game voice chat has been in the works for a while now. I mentioned last time that it was on target for 3.0 providing that we didn't hit any snags. Well guess what, we hit a snag! An all too familiar snag.

Time for a history lesson.

How many of you remember what it was like before FW 2.4? That's right - no in-game XMB. No custom soundtracks. In-game XMB was the most heavily requested feature at the time and we worked tirelessly in order to get it in (By "we", I mean Sony Japan - as I said before, FW isn't my department). It very nearly didn't happen, you have no idea how difficult it is to backport a feature like that onto a system (the game) that doesn't even know its there, but somehow we managed it. Well, for most titles. There are still the odd few titles out there that don't support in-game XMB ("black" titles).
Custom soundtracks was another one we had working in nearly every title. Obviously it was never going to work in black titles, but about 95% of the titles that worked well with the in-game XMB, had custom sountracks working as well.

So what happened? Why is it that titles HAVE to be developed specifically with custom soundtrack support when it was working more or less just fine?

Is it because Microsoft owns the patent on custom soundtracks in games?

This is something that makes me laugh every time I see one of the less educated ones spouting it off. That's an absolute fabrication. Patents don't matter, Sony as a while infringes upon thousands of patents through the whole company, both hardware and software. If you infringe a patent, you pay royalties to the owner or find a different way of doing the same thing that doesn't infringe. That's it. Microsoft infringes upon all kinds of patents we own but that's up to legal to sort out.

No, the reason we had to drop Custom soundtrack support like that has nothing to do with Microsoft. It does, however, involve a different company. A rather large company.
You see, one of their games happened to fall into the 5% that didn't support in-game custom soundtracks. And they did not like this.
When they found out that a new firmware update was going to suddenly make one of their games look inferior to just about every other game released, they protested. A lot.
They threatened everything, from legal action to dropping support for the PS3 all together.

What could we do? There was almost no way of getting it to work correctly due to the way their game was made (i.e. Poorly) and we certainly couldn't leave a broken implementation in there. That's when the hard decision was made to remove all support for older titles and instead adopt the "opt-in" approach that, to this day, most developers simply ignore. I have to hand this to Microsoft - they did their system right from the beginning and by completely separating it from the developers, they have universal support. Its very unlikely that you'll ever see mandatory support for custom soundtracks in games on our system, I'm afraid.
So yeah, lets nail this on the head: The next time someone starts blaming Microsoft for something the PS3 doesn't have, tell them they're an idiot, they don't know what they're talking about. Are we clear on this? This is a pet peeve of mine because while everyone's happy to go around blaming Microsoft, the real culprits are getting off scott-free. Of course, I can't actually name them directly or, should I get caught, I might even get done for slander (you can never be too careful), but you can figure it out - it's not Activision and they have a poor history with the PS3.

So what has this got to do with Cross-game voice chat?

Guess.

I warned you that we might hit a snag and we did. We've found a couple of titles that just don't like it. Similar to the custom soundtrack fiasco, it can cause lag, crashes, desyncronisation (very very bad when this happens), you name it. It can't be used in these games and it just so happens that some of these games are owned by the same company I've been talking about above.
So we're in a predicament: Cross-game chat is useless if only certain games support it. It's not too bad if its just the odd one that doesn't like it, but at this rate we'd have to drop support for the ENTIRE back catalogue, which would (As I said) make the whole thing useless.
Furthermore, we can't rely on developers to implement direct support for it. It didn't work with Custom Soundtracks, so why would it work here?
So right now, we're trying every little trick in the book to find a solution that works for everyone, but don't hold your breath on this one, so far it looks like the best you're going to get is a gimped implementation of it that only works with a handful of new games.

Now as I said, FW isn't actually my department and even I'm not supposed to know some of this stuff, but this is actually where we are right now. It sucks majorly, but there you have it. Depending on the end result, it could come in FW 3.1 or it could come in FW 4.0, hell it might not even come at all but rest assured they are working very hard on it. And if it doesn't come, you know who to blame.
Firmware 3.0 had the massive XMB overhaul that looks like it used Cairo for rendering and possibly (no proof of this) gstreamer and pulse audio. CairoGL SVG would have reduced the size of the OS and gstreamer & pulse audio go together with the whole package (Cairo, gstreamer core and pulse audio) necessary to support the coming GTKwebkit and this is 2009 when the Marlin DRM gstreamer player was released and it was supposed to work on the PS3 (Marlin gstreamer player required the gstreamer AV core). He mentions 4.0 which I'm assuming is the release version for webkit using the above tools. Pulse audio is not mentioned in the Sony GTKwebkit LGPL disclosure but pulse audio is used in handhelds (Vita) to save battery power and is part of Gnome 3.2 desktop (for echo cancellation) which has GTKwebkit as the default browser.

*************

These version numbers mentioned by Super_secret from 3.0 to 4.0 fit with the major PS3 OS changes to support the coming GTKwebkit and as I've speculated a browser based XMB similar in idea to Gnome 3.2 desktop shell. (Both use the same support libraries and GTKwebkit.) PS3 Firmware 3.5 (September 28th 2010) contained a webcore Javascript engine which requires CairoGL for rendering. March 2011 Sony disclosed GTKwebkit LGPL. Support libraries are integrated with the PS3 OS first and fine tuned then webkit core and last the finished SVG UI for the XMB browser desktop. Pixel based icons & text are replaced with SVG icons and text (no way to tell if this is already partially done especially for game side).

************

So up to the wire (4.0) with 3.7 and they couldn't get it to work. Issues with real world input of audio or video have the PS3 SPU waiting on input and wasting job time (2X audio channel bandwidth, say 3Khz equals 6khz and the SPU operates at 3+ Ghz). So RAM buffers are used to store enough audio to have the SPU time used efficiently. As you try to have the SPU tasked with audio to do more, more buffer is needed which requires more ram. Up the # of audio channels to include several IP audio streams from other PS3s or Vita for chat and more memory is needed. Try to reduce buffer memory used and you get something like the complaints of audio using blutooth microphones breaking up while in game after firmware 3.7.

Echo cancellation for pulse audio is a module that is only loaded if a mic and chat is enabled. That was just released for pulse audio and Sony probably had to wait for this last piece to confirm "Xgame chat" from the XMB couldn't be shoehorned into the PS3 game side. Pulse audio was already part of the PS3 OS since 3.0 (supported redirection and bit rate changes). Most likely the wait for 3.7 for the Sony 7.1 headphones (USB port) was to support 7.1 sound and with it came echo cancellation (pulse audio). We already know that Pulse Audio or PS3 sound SPU couldn't support redirection of High Definition sound to both the TOS port and HDMI port, one of the other had to be chosen. So output 7.1 to USB and echo cancellation for the Headphone Microphone probably taxed the system to the limit...no room either with RAM or job time for X game chat. Job time should have been predictable and available RAM was known so I'd guess that someone thought the 7.1 Headphone had a bigger profit potential than Xgame chat. There is also the remote possibility that there is no back and forth contact between Sony and Collabora.
 
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theBishop said:
Yeah, he does speculate. He speculates on the significance of things he clearly doesn't understand.

Suppose you asked me if a Whale is a Tiger, and I say "well, it's got horns, wings, and gills, so I'm guessing it's a Tiger", is that useful speculation?
Well, firmware updates do happen though, also big ones. So i guess that it is not impossible that some of this speculation might happen. But only time will tell :)
 
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As Gnome 3.2 desktop shell and GTK 3.2 approach their September 28th release date, more of the new features coming with that release are published and locked as far as changes. There is a VERY-VERY good chance that some of these features may make their way into the PS3 and VIta.

The current PS3 Keyboard is a bit-mapped (pixel based) on screen image and functionality consumes 2 megs of memory. The PS3 is moving to a SVG based OS (my opinion) and the coming GTKwebkit uses the GTK SVG toolkit and Hildon library of SVG based icons. The GTK/Gnome shell Keyboard looks like the following and will use MUCH LESS memory:



Sony may put their spin on this like they did with the S1 keyboard below which is also SVG:



And is the Icon just to the right of the Space bar a Microphone as in speech to text?

RE: Sony S1 Android keyboard spin. Sony, according to the news article, put their own spin on the keyboard by including a number pad. I expect this for the PS3 as Sony is apparently assuming a 1080P 16:9 screen that is wider than tall so you can fit a wider keyboard. Android assumes users may tilt a screen so keyboards must fit either way (my read) with the default taller than wider.
 
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jeff_rigby said:
And is the Icon just to the right of the Space bar a Microphone as in speech to text?
You're killing me here, jeff. :p Yes, it's a microphone, as in speech to text. The S1 is an Android device, and since 2.2 all Android devices have had speech recognition built into the on-screen keyboards.

Even better, they have a voice search widget that'll run various phone functions and apps off of voice recognition. Sometimes it feels like it's not that far removed from the Star Trek computers, to be honest.
 
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androvsky said:
You're killing me here, jeff. :p Yes, it's a microphone, as in speech to text. The S1 is an Android device, and since 2.2 all Android devices have had speech recognition built into the on-screen keyboards.

Even better, they have a voice search widget that'll run various phone functions and apps off of voice recognition. Sometimes it feels like it's not that far removed from the Star Trek computers, to be honest.
Thanks, didn't know that.

Any chance that Sony might implement something similar on the Vita or PS3? This is something that I have not read about with Gnome 3.2. There are plans for text to speech but none for speech to text or voice command. If coming for Vita or PS3 it might be pure Sony (Developer SDK).
http://www.ps3-sense.nl/2009/09/sony-gaat-spraakherkenning-toevoegen-aan-ps3-sdk/ said:
In the future, Sony will add speech recognition to the PS3 SDK. For those who do not know what an SDK is, we will briefly try to explain. SDK stands for Software Development Kit, a kit consists mainly of documentation and sample codes that serve as a tool for software development. Any developer who makes games and software for the PS3, is in possession of such SDK. Sony SDK update this regularly with new features, so recently a Youtube upload function and added a screenshot module.
Again the above is a September 2009 news article.

I've been shocked recently by a Sony rep admitting that the PS3 is crippled by lack of RAM and at the same time stating that the VITA has 512 meg and much RAM was reserved (not given to developers) for new features while in game. Is this now the official line? Normally you don't admit a problem unless you are going to do something about it. Edit: more comments that the PS3 can not support 64 player maps because of memory restrictions while PCs can. ?PS3 with more memory coming or PS4 sooner than expected?

The PS3 voice command SDK feature started in 2009 is most likely memory intensive and the effort to reduce the size of the PS3 application side OS with Cairo and desktop browser (my speculation and also started in 2009) might not be just to give a browser more RAM.

Xbox is pushing this feature (voice command) but demos look unreliable. There was one with a woman issuing voice commands that was perfect and I expect she was chosen for her consistent and exact pronunciation. Others excuse errors due to voice strain etc. (which may be true).

Support for the PS3 application side having voice command is very weak and limited to the PS3 Game side SDK which shows Sony working on it and Xbox having voice command. In my mind it's weaker than the speculation of a PS3 browser XMB. So official line that the PS3 is crippled because of lack of ram might be used to tout the Vita or explain why newer Sony platforms have advanced features and the PS3 does not. Or more likely a larger effort to shoehorn in new features with that limited RAM which takes more time and sometimes the effort is futile; witness the current Sony XMB Xgame chat not coming announcement.
 
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GraphiteGB wrote:

GraphiteGB who beta tested the BBC iPlayer said:
The libraries for full powered browser are allready there in the PS3.
BBC IPLAYER is 720p HD Video web browser powered app.
Its powered buy the PS3s internal browser when a fault with bad java script loading happened the way to remove the data was to Use the clear cache in the normal browser.
If you turn off the java script access in the current browser you also disable IPlayer from accessing the new libraries.
Sony for what ever reason is just not enabling the current direct access browser with URL bar to access the libraries.
I would asume that this is due to problems with memory as Iplayer has the XMB use DISABLED.
That can't happen with the full browser as you need XMB access to upload/downloading pictures, music and Video.
jeff_rigby said:
I'm confused. The BBC iPlayer uses the new (Oct 2010) webkit Javacript engine for UI and a Gstreamer player. Beyond a shell program to setup the full screen framework, a digital key to run and call javascript, I didn't think it used webkit API or other parts of the webkit core. You are saying that there is already cross (maybe in error) browser control from the Netfront browser to parts of the webkit browser????

Disabling the XMB would most likely be for security reasons not memory. The javascript engine and gstreamer player would total less than 25 megs in all and I'm guessing on the large side.

You could be right as you have direct experience and this is over my head.
GraphiteGB said:
Yep . Options in the netfront browser controll the HD 720p Iplayer app. We wont know if its a mistake.
Possible new Flash player controlled by the Netscape Flash plugin controls from the Old Netfront browser using the same plugin standard? Edit: looks like some other issue as it's confirmed HTML5 and native player. Edit2: Some other issue...same array structure for passing commands and information between the UI and Old browser/webcore?

And then we have this:http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2011/08/bbc_iplayer_connected_tv.html

While it may not look anything like a website, what we are unveiling today - initially on the PS3 games console - is built using the same technology: HTML and Javascript. The increasing use of standards for playing media, such as HTML5 and CE-HTML (both elements of the the Dbook7 standard for hybrid TV devices in the UK) is making it easier for us to roll this out more widely. So, expect to see it come to other devices in the coming months. We’re also building a variant that will work on new TV devices that are integrating the latest technology from Adobe: Flash 10.x and Air 2.x.
Edit: Androvsky pointed me to the comments section which supports it's HTML5 and "native player" (gstreamer)
Chris Warren BBC wrote: It's a hybrid solution - it runs within a browser within a native app. As Gideon mentions above, the user interface is built using standard web technologies (JavaScript, CSS, etc.) but to make the most of the PS3 hardware, playout is handled through the native application.
 
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jeff_rigby said:
Thanks, didn't know that.

Any chance that Sony might implement something similar on the Vita or PS3? This is something that I have not read about with Gnome 3.2. There are plans for text to speech but none for speech to text or voice command. If coming for Vita or PS3 it might be pure Sony (Developer SDK). Again the above is a September 2009 news article.
Text to speech is pretty difficult to pull off decently, Android devices do it by uploading the audio sample to Google to let their server farm chew on it. If you're on a slow data connection it can take a while to work. I wouldn't expect Gnome or eve Sony to do it well any time soon. Kinect's might be local, but MS has been working on voice recognition for a very long time now.

The BBC blog you linked to has some useful responses:
Tony, Coverleeds: It's a hybrid solution - it runs within a browser within a native app. As Gideon mentions above, the user interface is built using standard web technologies (JavaScript, CSS, etc.) but to make the most of the PS3 hardware, playout is handled through the native application.
So basically, HTML5 (according to the main article) and not Flash.
@BM02GAN: As above, to help us diagnose this, can you let us know if you're using Wifi or Wired? In-game XMB had to be disabled for technical reasons. You can quit by holding the PS button down (as with any other game/application). We're looking at ways to make this more obvious.
 
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GraphiteGB said:
BBC IPLAYER is 720p HD Video web browser powered app.
Its powered buy the PS3s internal browser when a fault with bad java script loading happened the way to remove the data was to Use the clear cache in the normal browser.
I assume then this application is based on NetFront Browser DTV Profile BBC iPlayer Edition, right? It is probable the variant they are referring to in that article of BBC Internet Blog means a simple browser plug-in integration for the usual Adobe proprietary technologies, similar to the one on the general purpose PS3's NetFront Browser, that ACCESS itself mentions in this dedicated product page of their website:

NetFront Browser DTV Profile BBC iPlayer Edition - ACCESS said:
Flash® can be integrated as a browser plug-in with additional development and licensing costs
http://www.access-company.com/products/internet_appliances/netfrontdtv/BBCiPlayer.html
 
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/XX/ said:
I assume then this application is based on NetFront Browser DTV Profile BBC iPlayer Edition, right? It is probable the variant they are referring to in that article of BBC Internet Blog means a simple browser plug-in integration for the usual Adobe proprietary technologies, similar to the one on the general purpose PS3's NetFront Browser, that ACCESS itself mentions in this dedicated product page of their website:
http://www.access-company.com/products/internet_appliances/netfrontdtv/BBCiPlayer.html
We have to rely on News articles that can be wrong to determine how IPTV is implemented on the PS3. In this case with the BBC iPlayer, they have in the past used Flash, in the future will use Flash but in the case of the PS3 BBC iPlayer they are using HTML5 and the PS3 player (gstreamer). Both the Blog I cited and comments in reply to questions (thanks to androvsky for pointing this out) confirms HTML5 for the UI and "native player". When you add to this that the Sony 2011 TVs do not include Flash, I think it's a lock.

I was questioning this because of comments from GraphiteGB I may have misunderstood.

Many want a Flash 10.1 plugin for the coming new browser but Sony may decide to not support Flash as it according to many including Adobe is going to be eclipsed by HTML5 if some universal video DRM scheme is adopted. One of the W3C specs for new browsers is support for features found in Flash. So Flash going to be supported by the new GTKwebkit is a big unknown with much interest. GTKwebkit does support Netscape plugins for Flash so it's a possible either way.

Your cite is another possible but I think unlikely as we know Sony is using a webkit javascript engine for IPTV from a coming GTKwebkit not a third browser as in a new Netfront browser from ACCESS. Good to know though.
 
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androvsky said:
Text to speech is pretty difficult to pull off decently, Android devices do it by uploading the audio sample to Google to let their server farm chew on it. If you're on a slow data connection it can take a while to work. I wouldn't expect Gnome or even Sony to do it well any time soon. Kinect's might be local, but MS has been working on voice recognition for a very long time now.
Correct me if I'm wrong but speech to text has been delayed by both software and waiting for hardware powerful enough. Game platforms are powerful enough and Sony is developing the software. Early Android, most phones and tablets are not fast enough (so server implemented not local) but the Vita, PS3 and Xbox are in the same class and I think powerful enough. The release of the Vita is going to be interesting as handhelds, TVs and other devices without keyboards benefit from voice command more that Desktop computers...I expect this is why Google implemented it in Android early on.

Been reading on DLNA 2.0 speculation. Seems a home DLNA server could on the fly convert media designed for one device to a format for another device. An extreme example is converting a IPTV video stream to a 1 frame a second format for a Kindle reader. Best CPU to do this and other examples; something that has a SPU like processor. Examples also mention voice command also implemented remotely "served" by the DLNA server.

I also find this interesting when tied to the Sony 4 SPU speculation for home media server. I didn't give this the thought it deserved as it was overkill for a DLNA server but if you include serving voice command ability for home automation and media serving to various devices...... http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php?p=29840465&postcount=709

Japanese sources claim that Sony is gearing up to manufacture the Cell processor in bulk with some analysts tipping that the new processor will also appear in Sony notebooks and built into new Sony Bravia TVs.

Intel sources have said that they are also working on a new processor that will be ideal for future gaming consoles as well as for use in devices that are both gaming console and media hubs.
What Media hub needs the power of a game console???? Embedded Voice command DLNA media hub? Or is the PS3 considered by the industry a Media hub and game console?

Edit: looked up DLNA speech enabled control and guess what? http://www.amuletdevices.com/blog/index.php/dlna-speech-enabled-controller.html

DLNA Speech Enabled Controller
Wed, January 26, 2011 by Steve

I’ve recently been giving some thought to something I call a DLNA Speech Enabled Controller. Imagine a software application that would sit on a PC on your LAN. It would have speech recognition capability and receive voice input from anywhere in the house over a radio link courtesy of an Amulet remote (or maybe a wearable device). It would find content on any DLNA media controller type devices on the network, and enable its playback on any DLNA media renderer devices on the network.
Embedded Speech recognition in DLNA Servers is a 2010 book describing a Speech enabled DLNA server. So we have to look at future DLNA servers differently.

Gstreamer plugin for interactive speech control of applications.

Do you find it interesting that the next Collabora conference has these as talking points:

We have a long list of topics to be presented like:

GStreamer 1.0
WebM and VP8
Pulse Audio development report
Designing complex pipelines with GStreamer
Blu-ray playback and GStreamer
GStreamer and WebOS
Updates on latest Xiph.org and Vorbis developments
GStreamer, Webkit and HTML5
Case studies on GStreamer product deployments
and Sony is now a sponsor for the Linux Kernel Summit 2011, this for the first time I can find in 3 years (may be more) and Collabora is holding their talks on the above at the Linux Kernel Summit.

Edit: Sony a Platinum Sponsor for the embedded Linux Conference Europe and just underneath Sony is Collabora with Silver.

It's possible that the new Blueray player in PS3 Firmware 3.7 is based on Gstreamer above. I noticed that some of the UI is buggy (or changed so much that I haven't discovered how to use it) which might confirm extensive changes which might indicate it's not an upgrade of the old player but a new replacement from that OEM DRM branch of gstreamer. Yes I know....a stretch and at this time just interesting.

4K TV gets another bump with the Onkyo TX-NR609 receiver. I still can't understand the # of people who still believe 4K is not coming or that Sony will not support this in the PS4 (for media).
The other big news is that this is the world’s first AV receiver to offer video upscaling to 3840 x 2160 (4K) resolution, courtesy of the built-in Marvell Qdeo chipset. Of course, that’s of no use to your current hi-def telly but with 4K sets on their way – including Toshiba’s glasses free TV, which they reckon will be out ‘in the next 12 months’ – it could have some practical use in the not-too-distant future,
 
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Sony S1 tablet due to arrive in early September. Multiple pictures that show features are in the link.



The official name of the S1 is the Sony Tablet S, which is currently projected to bring its 9.4-inch (1280x768) screen to market in the first two weeks of September. It will ship with Android 3.1 with an eye towards upgrading to Ice Cream Sandwich once that's available, and just as the company said many of the key features will revolve around using it to control all devices in the home, via the network or the integrated IR blaster, as well as having the ability to "Throw" media to other DLNA-compatible hardware, whether it's made by Sony or someone else. The slate's dual cameras come in at 3.0MP res up front and 5.0MP around the back, while it's also expected to bring along accessories our source indicates are very similar to those for the iPad. In the images below you can check out a wireless keyboard and dock setup and micro-USB to USB host dongle, details on the "TruBlack" screen technology that's supposed to provide better colors with less glare, and of course all of Sony's preinstalled software bringing PlayStation Certified gaming plus its music, movie and book services. What we don't know yet is its final price -- we'd heard $599 previously -- but there should be more to say about that and the clamshell S2 tablet soon.
"as well as having the ability to "Throw" media to other DLNA-compatible hardware" Demos for other platforms had "Throw" to the browser too; supported in the Sony ecosystem also? Throw to Qriocity on the PS3 to play the movie?



From what I understand "Throw" or Fling is an easy OS feature to support and if you support one "Throw" feature for instance DLNA is mentioned (This is just DLNA 1.5 2006 support with the S1 as a DLNA Contoller and the PS3 as Player/renderer + a Multi-touch screen recognition of a "Fling" or "Throw" gesture which confirms at least DLNA 1.5 in the PS3), "Throw" URL to browser is perhaps also easily possible as are even more "ecosystem features". (Thanks to craigercsm in the PS Forum for bringing this up.)

When was DLNA 1.5 added to the PS3, with firmware 3.21 which included DTCP-IP for DRM security of server (DLNA and More) media and also removed Other OS Linux. Is DRM security for what we are soon getting the reason for Other OS removal? Was DLNA upgraded recently to include Rygel (gstreamer based) DLNA 1.5? Is the new Blu-ray player in firmware 3.7 a Collabora gstreamer player?

EDIT: Speculation: New Rygel Gstreamer based DLNA + New Collabora Gstreamer based BLu-ray player + DTCP-IP = PS3 Blu-ray served Via DLNA to other network platforms with DTCP-IP enabled. Rygel Gstreamer plugins would easily allow conversion of video and audio formats to meet the needs of the speculated DLNA 2.0 features. It would also support adaptive bitrate or adaptive streaming for slower network connections. Rygel already supports WebM (free open source video codec from Google). Edit DTCP-IP is a DRM solution inside the home network only.

androvsky: an example of my wild speculation. RVU, AllVid and a CE standard support menus over DLNA for DVR cableboxes which may have High Definition video or allow use of DVR tuners for live viewing of protected (scrambled) content. BLu-Ray served over DLNA is just the same use/case.

If you are going to throw from the S1 to PS3 a D-Buss packet to start a PS3 Qriocity IPTV application that uses a Marlin gstreamer player and webkit Javascript engine for UI, it would benefit from having the Gstreamer player and javascript always loaded in the XMB Browser desktop. Same for a web browser URL fling, music fling, playview, comic book etc.

So early September Sony will need to have PS Suite, Ultraviolet, Qriocity Movie and Music up and active. Sometime after that date the PS3 should get the rest of the 3.0 to 4.0 ecosystem features turned on.

Control all devices including the Sony Chumby-Dash? We previously were told the S1 had a Chumby application. There is also Chumby for Android.

Best description of how Sony may implement DLNA: http://vaio-online.sony.com/prod_info/software/mediaplus/index.html
 
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And this may be the seed for the rumor that Google TV is coming to the PS3. Prior to this point Google TV required an Intel chip, it couldn't be ported to the PS3. Now it might be possible.

http://blog.jr.com/samsung-and-google-tv-a-winsome-pair/ said:
Previous talks with Google to incorporate Google TV software into Samsung products had come to a halt when Google required that Samsung use Intel chips in their home-entertainment devices. In an attempt to lessen their dependence on the sale of personal computers, Intel seeks to get a foothold in the business of home electronics. Having all Google TV products use Intel’s Atom chips would have possibly achieved that goal.

All previous televisions using Google TV have been produced by Sony and Logitech, both using Intel’s Atom chip. Unfortunately for Intel, the word on the street is that Google has conceded and allowed Samsung to create a line of products using Google TV with Samsung’s own chips. Needless to say, this puts a wrench into Intel’s cogwheel and disturbs their plan to dominate the electronics market. Although Google TV has made arrangement with other TV brands, Samsung is a worthy adversary for the world’s largest Internet business. If Samsung uses its own chips, the field opens for processor competition
Additional hardware to be supported by Google TV in addition to Motorola DVR boxes now owned by Google.

http://hd.engadget.com/ said:
Wondering what Mountain View has in store for Google TV -- that half-baked content platform available on only a small handful of devices? Well, it's not going away, apparently, and may even cross the Atlantic into Europe next year. Google Chairman Eric Schmidt is currently making waves in Scotland, giving Edinburgh International Television Festival attendees a rather vague overview of what the next generation of Google TV may look like. Schmidt said that the service has yet to take off because it's currently integrated with (a rather limited selection of) TVs, which we don't tend to upgrade more than once or twice a decade. He added that additional hardware and content partners will be coming soon, though, and didn't deny that Google TV could end up on Motorola cable boxes -- an obvious move, given the company's recent acquisition announcement. With widespread implementation and many more content partners, Google TV could definitely be a hit


Google TV Developer Box has a Tuner, Cheaper non-Intel chipsets with Google TV

http://gigaom.com/video/will-google-tv-2-0-embrace-cord-cutting/ said:
Geek.com just published a few photos of Google TV’s Fishtank development hardware — a device that has been given to a limited number of developers to get a head-start on app development for the next iteration of the Google TV platform. It’s a pretty nondescript piece of hardware, which comes with the standard Logitech Google TV keyboard, but there’s one detail that caught my attention: The back of the unit features two antenna ports, suggesting that the next iteration of Google TV could embrace cord cutting.

Google has long tried to align its TV platform with pay TV operators, emphasizing it’s complementary to and not a replacement of, cable. That belief was also part of the design of the Logitech Revue Google TV set-top box, which gets access to live TV by inserting itself into the HDMI chain between your cable box and your TV.

The Revue didn’t feature an ATSC tuner, which would have made it possible to watch free over-the-air HD TV. The Fishtank hardware, on the other hand, does seem to have such a tuner, as well as the antenna input to go along with it. This could mean that users of the device could get HD broadcast programming and augment it with Google TV content and apps without paying for a TV subscription.

TV content from Motorola DVRs being made available to mobile devices?

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-16/tech/google.motorola.tivo.wired_1_google-tv-set-top-tivo/2?_s=PM:TECH said:
Now Google doesn't have to make all-new deals with content owners or cable providers; it can leverage Motorola's existing relationships. It doesn't have to convince consumers to buy a smart TV or smart Blu-Ray player or anything else. All it has to get them to do is use a new box or, like TiVo, put a new card in the box that's already attached to their television set.

"There is great convergence between the mobile world and content that comes to the home through set-top boxes," Motorola Mobility CEO Sanjay Jha said on a call announcing the acquisition. "Working with the carriers, we'll be able to accelerate that convergence which will excite customers."


Motorola Mobility is the second largest set-top-box manufacture in the world. They were #1 in 2009 before being passed by Pace. You better believe Google has plans on taking advantage of this for Google TV. The biggest problem with Google TV is simple. Who wants yet another costly electronic device for their TV? Solution? Integrate it with the most common electronic device tied to your tv: your cable/satellite box. The other big problem has been the networks and service providers. Google can care less about getting into the network business. Google TV is all about bringing the internet, search, and advertisements to yet another platform, your TV. What better way than to integrate it into the very box you use? This will also play well with the providers since they can have full control over the network end of it, while also allowing for the internet integration. Providers will certainly also welcome the incredible new doors this opens in terms of technological advancement to their UI and overall experience while using their TV service. A Google TV integrated box may finally be the TV/internet match people have been wanting and unsuccessfully trying to do for over a decade.

Now enter Android@Home. Back in May during the Google I/O conference, Google announced its plan to enter your home with Android@Home. Sure enough, Motorola Mobility makes home appliances. This is a perfect way for Google to dive into Android@Home the way they want to. I can already imagine a Motorola Android powered baby monitor that allows you to view your baby on your Android phone, tablet, TV and even computer. I’m sure Motorola will also expand to new types of home appliances. Once this starts to take off you can be assured that other home appliance manufactures like LG who are already in the Android game will soon follow
Two weeks till Gnome 3.2 is locked and then two weeks later September 28th 2011 it's supposed to be released. Big thing that impacts us is the new version of GTK toolkit; GTK3.2, which is what GTKwebkit uses and of course if the PS3 has a browser desktop, needed for new XMB features.

First Linux distribution with Gnome 3.2 is scheduled for about October 25th.

TGS is September 17th 2011
S1 released first two weeks September 2011
Portal 2 DLC released Mid-September uses webkit
Direct TV Web app is due this September in US.. to bring the NFL to US PS3 users
 
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Kevin Butler only does everything: is apparently the thrust of a coming new commercial series.

Tweets have Kevin working for different firms and some were speculating that he was let go by Sony. It appears though that it's part of a new ad campaign that is starting with Twitter.

Starting this Holiday buying season which starts around October, the Sony ecosystem will be advertised....everything we've been reading about will be in play this holiday season and all Sony divisions will want to get these new features and products advertised.

I'd guess a subtle change from the PS3 "Only does Everything" to Sony does everything like Kevin does everything.

As we all know, the PS3 is a central part of the Sony ecosystem, it may not get top billing but it will be present in almost all ads.

Best guess is that the GTKwebkit browser and XMB browser desktop will be active when this starts.

androvsky has stated correctly that I do not have enough glue to hold my speculations together. A major part of my reasoning is based on Sony not being stupid, an understanding of what the webkit and support libraries can support and a belief that Sony and Collabora are collaborating. Look to the Collabora Projects page READ the entire page and add to that the recently announced Gstreamer Blu-ray player and Rygel Gstreamer DLNA. Support for all these Collabora projects on the PS3 fits with what Sony SHOULD be doing to support their ecosystem. If you do the research you can understand that Sony is not stupid or short sighted and will implement what is made possible with these support libraries and Collabora projects.

Many of my posts are cites pointing out the GTKWebkit Libraries and then what they can do (facts). I can't support my speculations if the readers do not understand what these libraries can support or how others are using them as I expect Sony to do also. Since we do not have access to PS3 sourcecode, functionality is the only way to determine if Sony is using these libraries in the PS3 OS. As others have pointed out, there are many ways to implement features so using this line of reasoning is a weak proof. There are however several key changes that will provide stronger proof (a shrinking OS while adding more features is a big part of this, shrinking application sizes too).

In any case in 20-45 days I believe we will have confirmation. (Still not sure if waiting for webkit 2 is an issue.)

Gstreamer video editing description then at 27 min timeline a demo: http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/video-editing-your-pocket
GStreamer Editing Services (GES) library for GStreamer which adds support for high quality and low overhead video editing in an easy manner with GStreamer. GES is developed with the embedded space in mind and aims at being easy to work with whether one wants to write a simple video trimming application or a fully fledged editor. Based on GStreamer, it therefore takes advantage of generic and vendor-specific plugins and allows integrators to offer added-value editing application right from the start
The PS3 video editor and uploader is a part of the PS3 OS (firmware 3.40) and loads in less than 2 seconds and on exit return to the XMB is instantaneous. You can not get any information on the Video editor by pressing the triangle button. It's using gstreamer (speculation) which is part of the PS3 core OS routines. It does NOT require much memory to edit Video files! as the video is not edited, it's non destructive. Only on export is video manipulated on the fly to the hard disk, prior to that point it's just descriptions of timelines or clips that on export are pulled out of your video files.

Expect a 3-D upgrade to this soon. (requires Gstreamer 1.0 and updates to GES)
 
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The Future of 3D web apps and Games

Project - http://code.google.com/p/o3d/

Googles O3D started life as an open-source web API for creating rich, interactive in a browser, 3D applications that needed a plugin to work. This API has evolved into a JavaScript library that works on ANY WebGL capable browser.

For more info on obtaining a WebGL-enabled browser check out https://www.khronos.org/webgl/wiki/Getting_a_WebGL_Implementation

Even more interesting is that Unity3D will be supported natively in the Chrome Browser via Googles Native Client SDK enabling an even richer web based 3D game play experience.

In fact the Native Client SDK can be a massive game changer, allowing developers for the first time to take existing libraries written in C or C++ and use them directly in web apps.
Demo of a O3D scene

Is something similar to this what Sony is calling PS Suite?
 
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Jinfash said:
(It's his personal blog :shh)
the best part was when he tried using the new kevin butler ad as a hint that maybe the webkit browser as coming soon.


I guess since I last visited this thread he edited that post to have more technical stuff but it was pretty funny yesterday.