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[thuway]

I think the most important factors to the success of Neo/Scorpio will be the perceived value to consumers. It's up to the console manufacturers to demonstrate why these machines are necessary without muddying the waters completely.

The thing that worries me is pricing sensitivity. The resurgence of the console marketplace was in no short order due to PS4 pricing it self at a very affordably $399. I understand and appreciate the concept of high-end consoles- but customers are very price concious. Introducing a "Luxury" brand of consoles might be unwise if it prices itself outrageously above $499.

What wins arguements on message boards - is not going to win over the mainstream consumer. 3DS outsells Vita by and large in exponential figures- power didn't matter there. This is uncharted territory - iterative machines - and it remains to be seen what's going to happen going forward.


One thing is certain: people need to quit worrying about which machine is more powerful. By the time Scorpio launches you'll be approximately two years away from an impending PS5 or Neo 2. The cycle will just keep running over itself like a carousel.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think the most important factors to the success of Neo/Scorpio will be the perceived value to consumers. It's up to the console manufacturers to demonstrate why these machines are necessary without muddying the waters completely.

The thing that worries me is pricing sensitivity. The resurgence of the console marketplace was in no short order due to PS4 pricing it self at a very affordably $399. I understand and appreciate the concept of high-end consoles- but customers are very price concious. Introducing a "Luxury" brand of consoles might be unwise if it prices itself outrageously above $499.

The thing you are not adding into the equation, is the current models are still there in the same ecosystem with the same software. If they are profiting day one on the 'enthusiast' boxes, as well as the current ones, they do not care which is sold, since it is in their ecosystem selling their software and subscriptions. And the current ones will be even more affordable due to this for the consumer with price cuts, still stimulating growth for them.

Like the Apple model basically.

Apple does not care which size iMac, iPad, iPhone, MacBook you buy, as long as you are buying one of the options provided to the consumer, in their ecosystem.

The traditional console market analyzing we are used to has to evolve now to how Apple and the like are doing it, or you are just going to think yourself in circles with concern that is not shared with MSFT/Sony.

 

[thuway]

The thing you are not adding into the equation, is the current models are still there in the same ecosystem with the same software.

I totally agree, but over the past month I've seen outrageous things on social media/message boards that essentially are trying to equate power as the end all be all discussion. People are glancing over extremely important criteria like: price, features, legacy platform install base, exclusive software, upgrade programs, length of cycles, etc.

All this is tongue in cheek - because the final specs haven't been announced yet, and unfortunately - OsirisBlack and "Bob" - Hello Bob - have went missing in action .

I do wish Sony would just announce this thing already.

 

[RoboPlato]

One thing that I am curious to see if it has any impact is the libraries. With Neo coming out first, it'll support more upgraded versions of games while Scorpio may be stronger but have a smaller library. I wonder if that'll have any impact at all, especially if the gap is a whole year.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I totally agree, but over the past month I've seen outrageous things on social media/message boards that essentially are trying to equate power as the end all be all discussion. People are glancing over extremely important criteria like: price, features, legacy platform install base, exclusive software, upgrade programs, length of cycles, etc.

All this is tongue in cheek - because the final specs haven't been announced yet, and unfortunately - OsirisBlack and "Bob" - Hello Bob - have went missing in action .

I do wish Sony would just announce this thing already.

Do what I'm doing. Take all the evidence out there and accept that the Neo will be a 4.2TF system with a upclocked Jaguar CPU. If it ends up being more than that then you will be pleasantly surprised.

The leaked docs even state the dev/test kits are final spec. Sure they could pull a Xbox One and do a small bump in clocks but not, IMO, 5.5TF and new CPU.

 

[DragonKnight]

So the 5.5 TFLOP version of Neo has been confirmed to be bullshit?

 

[RoboPlato]

So the 5.5 TFLOP version of Neo has been confirmed to be bullshit?

It's pretty doubtful at this point. I think the final console will end up with more bandwidth to better support higher resolutions but I think the CPU and GPU are staying pretty much the same aside from maybe some slight clock changes.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

It's pretty doubtful at this point.

Good. It's unnecessary. 4.1 and $399 this fall is a kill shot. That's all they need, and it will still offer a reasonable performance bump.

 

[thuway]

So the 5.5 TFLOP version of Neo has been confirmed to be bullshit?

I don't know about bullshit, but Osiris mentioned there was a second machine Sony had in the wings but it wasn't in line with their pricing metrics at the time or something to that effect. Who knows what's really up - but Osiris - the originator of the rumor - has totally disappeared. :/

 

[DragonKnight]

It's pretty doubtful at this point.

Thanks.

 

[farisr]

So the 5.5 TFLOP version of Neo has been confirmed to be bullshit?

It's doubtful, but nothing is "confirmed" at this point. Changes can come late.

PS4 went from 4GB of RAM to 8GB pretty last minute from what I recall. A lot of devs, who had devkits at the time, were caught by surprise by the announcement.

All said and done though, I don't expect 5.5TF to happen.

 

[greekappi]

Hi guys,

What in the dickens does my TV support? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004QX6E7K/?tag=neogaf0e-20

It's the Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX929 and it has an option in the menu for a full range mode. I think it's the 0-255 thing. I believe the Xbox One has a setting already for full dynamic range and it makes the different whites and blacks pop out, right? Normal is 16-235 I believe.

Is this something completely different than this newfangled HDR stuff?

Help.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I don't know about bullshit, but Osiris mentioned there was a second machine Sony had in the wings but it wasn't in line with their pricing metrics at the time or something to that effect. Who knows what's really up - but Osiris - the originator of the rumor - has totally disappeared. :/

The 5.5TF info wasn't part of Osiris' original Neo post and so I assumed it came from someone else that shared it with him? My guess is he was inundated with PM's after his first post.....

Hopefully he sees this thread and clarifies.

 

[The God]

Power isn't the end all be all even in swing markets. Scorpio won't put Xbox ahead of Playstation despite what some evangelists may argue.

Brand power and user base is huge. Even if one system is stronger, if the larger user base is on another platform, a consumer will be more likely to go with what their friends are on.

nobody is saying that

what reasonable people are saying is that digital foundry has played a decent role in this generation and now Microsoft will have that advantage

 

[DeepEnigma]

nobody is saying that

what reasonable people are saying is that digital foundry has played a decent role in this generation and now Microsoft will have that advantage

So did they also play that same role last gen too?

 

[LurkFish17]

nobody is saying that

what reasonable people are saying is that digital foundry has played a decent role in this generation and now Microsoft will have that advantage

Ask the average Customer at a gamestop or best buy and I bet you the majority won't even know what digital foundry is let alone have it influence their decision.

 

[LukasTaves]

I said a game that's using the upper limits of PS4 for 1080P 30fps (like Uncharted 4)


You want devs to be able to take Uncharted 4 level games from 1080P to 4K without turning down the effects it's going to take more than it would take to run a 1080p Xbox One game in 4K without turning down the effects. (using the same rendering tech for all systems)

Nah, it takes far more to run Quantum Break in 4k than Ucharted 4.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I don't remember anything "official" but a lot of talk around this time frame was that both Sony and MS and many publishers including EA was really backing the "no used games" agenda. When it backfired, everyone seemed to back pedal on it. Again, nothing "official" that I recall was released, but I really believed that was the direction Sony and MS were going to go with and they had a lot of support from publishers and then we all knew what happened next.

There was a lot of talking from the press who were saying that .
And back then most of them were talking a bunch of nonsense.
Sony makes to many sales in other parts of the world to go down that road anything time soon .

Nah, it takes far more to run Quantum Break in 4k than Ucharted 4.

How would you even know that ?
I hope it's not because QB has a pc port because that don't tell you much .

 

[LurkFish17]

OnQ123 seems to getter a following, truly miracles can happen.
It's funny how this argument was unacceptable at the start of this generation (go where your friends are, it's what I've done for a long time) but is now an acceptable argument.

Given what the results of npd have been for a while now, it's a very supportable argument.

 

[onQ123]

Nah, it takes far more to run Quantum Break in 4k than Ucharted 4.

Quantum Break is already using temporal reconstruction to reach 1080P so it's 4K would be a lot like what Neo is doing to get 4K so no it would not take more for Quantum Break to be in 4K than Uncharted 4.

 

[BruceCLea]

Every time this thread bumps. Jesus

 

[Synth]

How would you even know that ?
I hope it's not because QB has a pc port because that don't tell you much .

Logically though it makes sense, assuming all else is equal (so Naughty Dog doesn't create Quantum Break instead, in a different theoretical universe).

It's not just that Quantum Break has a PC version, it's that game relies on reprojection in order to not output natively at 720p on Xbox, and that's one of the main things making the game scream on PC, because actual 1080p is fucking expensive for it. This isn't a Sunset Overdrive scenario where the game's general performance profile aligns neatly with the typical graphical disparities.

With all that said though, the odds that Quantum Break would have been a native 4k game on Scorpio if it had released later, doesn't seem too likely.

Quantum Break is already using temporal reconstruction to reach 1080P so it's 4K would be a lot like what Neo is doing to get 4K so no it would not take more for Quantum Break to be in 4K than Uncharted 4.

Hey, we actually kinda agree here for once.

Though in the context of this conversation, I would consider this to not be 4k, in the way I'd consider Quantum Break to not really be 1080p.

This is kinda the point though, that the XB1 hasn't had 1080p as a default target since ever, so it doesn't make any sense to base projections of what would be required for Scorpio (or an imaginary PS equivalent) games to be 4k on the assumption of Xbox One games being 1080p at 1.3TF. The games typically just scale down in a manner similar to running a multiplat game that's 1080p on PS4. So a 4k requirement would scale up to be the exact same console on principle.

 

[RoboPlato]

Quantum Break is already using temporal reconstruction to reach 1080P so it's 4K would be a lot like what Neo is doing to get 4K so no it would not take more for Quantum Break to be in 4K than Uncharted 4.

Does anyone actually have any reconstructed 4K shots of QB for reference?

 

[Lord Error]

It's the Sony BRAVIA XBR55HX929 and it has an option in the menu for a full range mode. I think it's the 0-255 thing. I believe the Xbox One has a setting already for full dynamic range and it makes the different whites and blacks pop out, right? Normal is 16-235 I believe.

Is this something completely different than this newfangled HDR stuff?

Help.

You probably posted this in the wrong thread, but I'll answer it:
Full range RGB is 0-255, like a monitor, correct. Make sure to match this with the settings on your console, as you've already mentioned. Even then make sure that everything looks right and that shadow detail does not look crushed. I know XB1 used to have some odd behavior in regards to this, so unless they've fixed it, it might be better to just keep the TV and the console on "Limited" range as the difference is small and perhaps only visible on larger gradients. In any case, this has nothing to do with the new HDR display capability. HDR is the display mode in which the backlight and contrast are boosted to the maximum, and then the video content is adjusted and encoded in a way to take the advantage of that (i.e. it is encoded to be very dark unless the backlight and contrast are maxxed). This way the content can be encoded to preserve more shadow and highlight details. The drawback is that you need to watch it in quite a dark room to take good advantage of it. Read here for a good explanation:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm

Your TV does not support HDR, but it has local backlight dimming, which is cool.

 

[Agent_Carnage]

I hope they price it good. If its another 599 US Dollars I dont think it will sell well. If its high it would be hard for someone who already owns a PS4 to buy one.

 

[greekappi]

You probably posted this in the wrong thread, but I'll answer it:
Full range RGB is 0-255, like a monitor, correct. Make sure to match this with the settings on your console, as you've already mentioned. Even then make sure that everything looks right and that shadow detail does not look crushed. I know XB1 used to have some odd behavior in regards to this, so unless they've fixed it, it might be better to just keep the TV and the console on "Limited" range as the difference is small and perhaps only visible on larger gradients. In any case, this has nothing to do with the new HDR display capability. HDR is the display mode in which the backlight and contrast are boosted to the maximum, and then the video content is adjusted and encoded in a way to take the advantage of that (i.e. it is encoded to be very dark unless the backlight and contrast are maxxed). This way the content can be encoded to preserve more shadow and highlight details. The drawback is that you need to watch it in quite a dark room to take good advantage of it. Read here for a good explanation:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm

Your TV does not support HDR, but it has local backlight dimming, which is cool.

Thanks so much for your reply! I noticed the same thing a year ago when I tried messing with the full vs limited RGB stuff on the X1. Even when setting my TV to full and the X1 to Full the blacks looked totally crushed. This is why I was so confused. I have since put it back to limited and changed my TV back to Auto on that HDMI input.

Does the PS4 have a similar setting I can enable for full RGB? How about Windows 10? I noticed while playing the PC demo of Doom that it seemed to look a lot better contrast and color wise (especially noticeable outside with all the martian red rock) than the PS4 or Xbox One version of the same level (yes I played the demo on all three).

Thanks for answering these questions as they've always perplexed me concerning what my TV can do. And yeah, I've been really happy with this TV. The only downside is off center viewing suffers a lot! But straight on viewing it looks killer.

 

[BDGAME]

I believe that can be in contest here too:

I always thinked that industrial espionage is better than that. But Sony really get screwed that time.

 

[Daft Punk]

I believe that can be in contest here too:



I always thinked that industrial espionage is better than that. But Sony really get screwed that time.

Lol Who made this ridiculous comic?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Logically though it makes sense, assuming all else is equal (so Naughty Dog doesn't create Quantum Break instead, in a different theoretical universe).

It's not just that Quantum Break has a PC version, it's that game relies on reprojection in order to not output natively at 720p on Xbox, and that's one of the main things making the game scream on PC, because actual 1080p is fucking expensive for it. This isn't a Sunset Overdrive scenario where the game's general performance profile aligns neatly with the typical graphical disparities.

With all that said though, the odds that Quantum Break would have been a native 4k game on Scorpio if it had released later, doesn't seem too likely. .

Yes but all thing being equal means the game would have a good PC port .
So the tricks they had to use on X1 would have not effect the PC port .

 

[BDGAME]

Lol Who made this ridiculous comic?

I made it. After E3 that is how I think the things are going with the new machines.

 

[Synth]

Yes but all thing being equal means the game would have a good PC port .
So the tricks they had to use on X1 would have not effect the PC port .

I'm not really talking about the PC port in general. Just how the game compares to other games on the same platform. In most cases a 1080p game on PS4 nets you a 900p game on XB1 running in a similar fashion. Quantum Break seems to be more demanding than that average. To an extent this is then reflected in the PC version (which opts to reproject also by standard rather than try and run native), but obviously as other stuff like Gears Ultimate have shown, stuff can also just run shit because it wasn't intended to have a PC port in the first place.

 

[HokieJoe]

Sorta disagree here. It was a very major factor. The fact that Sony found such huge success when they played it pretty safe with a fairly standard "games console", decided to charge for multiplayer and basically released almost no noteworthy exclusives for the first year or so says MS' fuck ups played a massive role.

Yep. Particularly in light of the 360's success.

#Mattrick

 

[Hispanic! At the Disco]

Every time this thread bumps. Jesus

I keep popping my head in to see if there's news. I want dates and prices! Lol will probably have to wait till TGS

 

[Averon]

Yeah, seems like Sony closed off the leaks.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Yeah, seems like Sony closed off the leaks.

Cerny left the tub and went to the Sony ninja only sauna. It's over folks

 

[cooldawn]

The thing that worries me is pricing sensitivity. The resurgence of the console marketplace was in no short order due to PS4 pricing it self at a very affordably $399. I understand and appreciate the concept of high-end consoles- but customers are very price concious. Introducing a "Luxury" brand of consoles might be unwise if it prices itself outrageously above $499.

I'll just re-iterate what I said before.

I'll find it hard to swallow if PS4Neo costs more than the original PS4. It needs to come in, at the most, the same price as a launch PS4 and the current PS4 re-adjusted to reflect it's age/technology.

 

[The God]

Ask the average Customer at a gamestop or best buy and I bet you the majority won't even know what digital foundry is let alone have it influence their decision.

You wouldn't ask them about digital foundry. You'd ask them about hearing that the XBO plays games "worse" than the PS4

 

[Lord Error]

Does the PS4 have a similar setting I can enable for full RGB? How about Windows 10? I noticed while playing the PC demo of Doom that it seemed to look a lot better contrast and color wise (especially noticeable outside with all the martian red rock) than the PS4 or Xbox One version of the same level (yes I played the demo on all three).

Yes, you can do this on PS4, it's in Settings / Sound and Screen / Video Output Settings / RGB Range. As far as I've been able to experience, PS4 handles this perfectly, and I'd suggest using the Full setting (with a matching Auto or Full setting on TV of course)

On PC, this is usually handled with your graphics card control panel settings, so it really depends on which graphics card you have. In case of PC I would not rely on Auto setting on TV, so double check if Auto works with your graphics card. In the case of my laptop, I have to manually change this on TV to a correct value.

 

[RexNovis]

It's funny how this argument was unacceptable at the start of this generation (go where your friends are, it's what I've done for a long time) but is now an acceptable argument.

While you have a point there is a big difference between this refresh and the release of the XB1 & PS4: these mid gen refresh consoles are literally designed to retain existing users where as the start of the gen was a literal fresh start in more ways than not.

When you have games and purchases carrying over into these new consoles its easy to see how your existing ecosystem will be a much larger point of consideration for most. In that way I would argue that the impact of a performance gulf would be significantly lessened since the platform that stands to be weaker has by far the most people entrenched in its current ecosystem. This along with a much earlier release to retail and what is likely to be a lower price point means performance will be a much smaller factor for those looking to upgrade. Its easy to see how given the design, release schedule and assumed price differential of these new platforms the current momentum would continue into these iterative platforms.

It really can't be understated how different the situations are just on a pure advantage view point

[B][U]XB1 v PS4 launch[/U][/B]

[B]PS4 Pros[/B]
- Higher Performance
- Lower Price Point
- No Online Check in/DRM (even though this was not an XB1 feature at launch many still assumed it was)


[U][B]Scorpio v Neo[/B][/U]

[B]Scorpio Pros[/B]
- Higher Performance

[B]Neo Pros[/B]
- Lower Price Point
- ~1 Year Earlier to Market
- Larger Existing Platform Userbase

At the start of the gen literally all of the pros most consumers would consider were in favor of PS4. The same can not be said of Scorpio in comparison to Neo.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I made it. After E3 that is how I think the things are going with the new machines.

Oh dear. You don't truly believe this do you?

 

[InsaneTiger]

Oh dear. You don't truly believe this do you?

Yes, PlayStation will suffer loss after loss until Scopio arrives, then, it's over for Sony.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yes, PlayStation will suffer loss after loss until Scopio arrives, then, it's over for Sony.

Whelp, time to trade mine in. Age of Sony is done, yada yada...

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

One thing that I am curious to see if it has any impact is the libraries. With Neo coming out first, it'll support more upgraded versions of games while Scorpio may be stronger but have a smaller library. I wonder if that'll have any impact at all, especially if the gap is a whole year.

I think it'll be the opposite. If Neo is really coming this year, I doubt too many Devs will be in a rush to patch their games to look slightly better. Remember, PS4 games are more often than not already 1080/30 or 60.

In the case of the Xbox, most games are well under. So I think a part of the year and a half lead in time is Microsoft getting their first parties to start prepping Scorpio patches for launch day. Not sure how 3rd party exclusives will come in to play, if at all. I doubt Microsoft will convince Insomniac, Capcom Vancouver or Crytek to patch their exclusives.

 

[RoboPlato]

I think it'll be the opposite. If Neo is really coming this year, I doubt too many Devs will be in a rush to patch their games to look slightly better. Remember, PS4 games are more often than not already 1080/30 or 60.

In the case of the Xbox, most games are well under. So I think a part of the year and a half lead in time is Microsoft getting their first parties to start prepping Scorpio patches for launch day. Not sure how 3rd party exclusives will come in to play, if at all. I doubt Microsoft will convince Insomniac, Capcom Vancouver or Crytek to patch their exclusives.

Don't understand your logic here. Particularly with third parties, there's going to be a number of studios that will have moved on and won't have the resources in place for a Scorpio update while a Neo update will make sense with their release timing.

 

[Synth]

Aren't Sony mandating a NEO mode for games released after a specific period (and a patch for those released just before it)? I'd say that pretty much guarantees that there will be more upgraded version on Neo, at least initially. If a game were to release early next year, then creating a upgraded mode for Scorpio ahead of time would be an option for a studio, but for Neo it would an expectation.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Aren't Sony mandating a NEO mode for games released after a specific period (and a patch for those released just before it)? I'd say that pretty much guarantees that there will be more upgraded version on Neo, at least initially. If a game were to release early next year, then creating a upgraded mode for Scorpio ahead of time would be an option for a studio, but for Neo it would an expectation.

All the 'neo mode' mandate means, is that the game has to run on both. Graphical improvements are at the developers discression, and it cannot perform worse than the base version at the expense of said improvements. It can be the same if devs decide.

I suspect since they already develop with scalable engines and the PC in mind, they are going to take advantage due to competition with other developers.

 

[Inuhanyou]

All the 'neo mode' mandate means, is that the game has to run on both. Graphical improvements are at the developers discression, and it cannot perform worse than the base version at the expense of said improvements. It can be the same if devs decide.

I suspect since they already develop with scalable engines and the PC in mind, they are going to take advantage due to competition with other developers.

Not exactly true. FHD is a mandate of NEO mode. So a game on NEO can't be below 1080p in any scenario. Since 95% of PS4 games themselves are 1080p, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Don't understand your logic here. Particularly with third parties, there's going to be a number of studios that will have moved on and won't have the resources in place for a Scorpio update while a Neo update will make sense with their release timing.

Huh? I said first parties. Not third.

The third party stuff I was talking about was in relation to the exclusives made by third parties. I also said that they most likely WONT patch so not sure what you read there.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Not exactly true. FHD is a mandate of NEO mode. So a game on NEO can't be below 1080p in any scenario. Since 95% of PS4 games themselves are 1080p, that doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Very true, forgot about that. Stoked for Battlefield 1 and Battlefront (may have to wait until 2) with 1080p/60 for better 4K scaling.

 

[anothertech]

I think the most important factors to the success of Neo/Scorpio will be the perceived value to consumers. It's up to the console manufacturers to demonstrate why these machines are necessary without muddying the waters completely.

The thing that worries me is pricing sensitivity. The resurgence of the console marketplace was in no short order due to PS4 pricing it self at a very affordably $399. I understand and appreciate the concept of high-end consoles- but customers are very price concious. Introducing a "Luxury" brand of consoles might be unwise if it prices itself outrageously above $499.

What wins arguements on message boards - is not going to win over the mainstream consumer. 3DS outsells Vita by and large in exponential figures- power didn't matter there. This is uncharted territory - iterative machines - and it remains to be seen what's going to happen going forward.


One thing is certain: people need to quit worrying about which machine is more powerful. By the time Scorpio launches you'll be approximately two years away from an impending PS5 or Neo 2. The cycle will just keep running over itself like a carousel.

Yup. And this is why what is happening right now is much more important to pay attention to. When Neo drops, it will be the most powerful yada yada. When Scorpio drops, MS will be most powerful yada yada, until PS5 drops... And round and round we will go in regards to power.

The more important factors I believe will be:

1- pricing at the time of launch for each hardware, both companies have over priced the hardware in the past, alienating the consumer playerbase. Let's see if either of these companies have learned the lessons yet.

2- the gaming message coming across for both hardware. Sony's message seems to be a 3 year cycle with no exclusives on the mid gen hardware. MS message is a bit muddled, but seems to be updates only when hardware tech is ready, and exclusives in the air.

3- timing of the new hardware is of extreme importance. If the Neo actually does have a year+ headstart, it will gain a lot of ground with consumers in an already healthy Sony market. We've seen a good deal of the effects from past generations, including the 360/PS3 gen.

4- VR capabilities and offerings. Sony is releasing it's offering in October, MS seems to be making something happen with Oculus, but we have yet to see for sure. VR may have more impact than many expect, as the tech gets more and more developed. If it truly makes waves for the gamer market though, that alone could be a big deal.