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[The God]

Exactly. will not 'blow out of water' =/= 'leapfrog'



Well your definition and interpretation is wrong.

Semantics

 

[DeepEnigma]

Semantics

Comprehension.

 

[flkraven]

So you're telling me that a PS4 game that uses the upper limits of the PS4 to reach 1080p 30fps would take the same amount of power to run in 4K as it would take a 1080p 30fps Xbox One game to run in 4K without turning down any effects or anything?

Why is this even being argued? Did Sony say that every PS4 game would run the exact same on Neo, but that 1080P on PS4 would immediately equal 4K on Neo? Because I don't recall them making that bold claim, so why even bother arguing the feasibility of it when it (probably) won't be happening?

The answer to your problem is easy - If it's a locked 1080P/30 on PS4, then they will up the res on the Neo so it maintains as close to 30FPS as possible. If it's 4K, great. If not, it will be some 900P equivalent upscaled to 4K (or some other solution). Occam's razor. It isn't that they are secretly cooking up an 8Tflop console or that Neo is actually 8Tflops.

 

[Melchiah]

If Neo is in the same life-cycle, it means it will die with the PS4 in terms of support, making it less attractive to buy at all, in my opinion. Who is going to buy an upgraded version of a console that lasts only for 3-4 years?
Also, I didn't say that it's a generatio killer or anything like that - I am trying to understand what Sony will do with hardware that is way better than a vanilla unit but that is tied to the lower spec unit in terms of games, support and lifetime.

Doesn't the same apply to the Scorpio? It's bound to be superseded by a new system around the same time to compete against the PS5. That would actually make its life-cycle about a year shorter than that of Neo's.

 

[flkraven]

Doesn't the same apply to the Scorpio? It's bound to be superseded by a new system around the same time to compete against the PS5. That would actually make its life-cycle about a year shorter than that of Neo's.

It's been implied that Scorpio is how MS plans to do their upgrading from here on out unless there is some massive, necessary architecture change. But even with that, Xbox 360 BC shows at least a willingness to keep compatibility with previous gens.

In this thread people have suggested that Playstations path will be different, saying the PS5 will be a more traditional leap into the next console generation.

 

[Melchiah]

It's been implied that Scorpio is how MS plans to do their upgrading from here on out unless there is some massive, necessary architecture change. But even with that, Xbox 360 BC shows at least a willingness to keep compatibility with previous gens.

In this thread people have suggested that Playstations path will be different, saying the PS5 will be a more traditional leap into the next console generation.

I think it's safe to assume the PS systems will have BC in the future as well, now that they've moved to x86 architecture. So, you'll probably be able to play PS4/Neo games on the PS5 as well.

 

[onQ123]

Why is this even being argued? Did Sony say that every PS4 game would run the exact same on Neo, but that 1080P on PS4 would immediately equal 4K on Neo? Because I don't recall them making that bold claim, so why even bother arguing the feasibility of it when it (probably) won't be happening?

The answer to your problem is easy - If it's a locked 1080P/30 on PS4, then they will up the res on the Neo so it maintains as close to 30FPS as possible. If it's 4K, great. If not, it will be some 900P equivalent upscaled to 4K (or some other solution). Occam's razor. It isn't that they are secretly cooking up an 8Tflop console or that Neo is actually 8Tflops.

How does my post lead to you thinking that I'm saying that they are cooking up a 8TF console?

My post started off about why Sony isn't going to react to Scorpio being 6TF because it would be too hard for them to react to Scorpio because they would need over 7.5TF to do what MS is doing & that's why they are using cheaper rendering solutions.

 

[wapplew]

It's been implied that Scorpio is how MS plans to do their upgrading from here on out unless there is some massive, necessary architecture change. But even with that, Xbox 360 BC shows at least a willingness to keep compatibility with previous gens.

In this thread people have suggested that Playstations path will be different, saying the PS5 will be a more traditional leap into the next console generation.

That's the vibe I get from both approach.
Sony keeping traditional console cycle with premium revision within a cycle.
MS try to make it like a PC/steam box, console become Windows store box, Xbox consoles just devices for Windows store. Games scale according to hardware until they fail minimum requirement.

 

[Neuromancer]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

"Did we consider it? No, we didn't consider it," Sony's affable Shuhei Yoshida, president of Sony Worldwide Studios, told GameInformer magazine (read by Gaming Everything).

"The main reason being that many countries don't have robust internet connections. It makes sense for people to have internet connections to play online games, but for offline games there are many countries that we saw do not really have robust internet."

Back when PlayStation 4 was revealed, Shuhei Yoshida told Eurogamer that "oh yes, yes, you can go offline totally" - "You can play offline, but you may want to keep it connected."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-05-08-sony-definitively-rules-out-always-online-for-ps4

This was before the Xbox One was revealed.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's the vibe I get from both approach.
Sony keeping traditional console cycle with premium revision within a cycle.
MS try to make it like a PC/steam box, console become Windows store box, Xbox consoles just devices for Windows store. Games scale according to hardware until they fail minimum requirement.

This is exactly how I understand it so far as well.

 

[LordOfChaos]

My post started off about why Sony isn't going to react to Scorpio being 6TF because it would be too hard for them to react to Scorpio because they would need over 7.5TF to do what MS is doing & that's why they are using cheaper rendering solutions.

You keep saying this, but it would only make sense if the XBO constantly hit 1080p with 1.3Tflops while the PS4 hit 1080p with 1.8. But that's not the case and the XBO has games on 900p more often than not.

Microsoft decided 6Tflops was what they needed to run at 4K, that doesn't mean Sony would need more than 6 to hit 4K just because the PS4 had more. It just means 6 is the ballpark of what you'd want for feasible 30fps on consoles at 4K.

 

[justsomeguy]

Hey Matt, was just wondering if you knew if there was any chance that we'll have games fully supporting HDR. It's a bigger deal to me than 4K.

Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4, Scalebound in xbox world...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...3-uses-the-xbox-one-s-high-dynamic-range-tech

 

[MilkyJoe]

How does my post lead to you thinking that I'm saying that they are cooking up a 8TF console?

My post started off about why Sony isn't going to react to Scorpio being 6TF because it would be too hard for them to react to Scorpio because they would need over 7.5TF to do what MS is doing & that's why they are using cheaper rendering solutions.

How on earth do you come to this conclusion?

 

[Shin-Ra]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

I don't remember this "anti used program", can you remind me?

 

[Neuromancer]

Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4, Scalebound in xbox world...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...3-uses-the-xbox-one-s-high-dynamic-range-tech

Aside from the fact that you're an MS employee why are you answering a question about the Neo with an answer about the Xbox S?

 

[onQ123]

This is some weird logic. Are you assuming that Scorpio games will not have high level graphics or something? I'm trying to get my head around this. What do you think a 4K Scrorpio game is going to be restricted by what Xbone can do at 1080? Like how PC was with Battlefront being 1080 on xbone?

The goal of both of these new consoles is to be able to have 4K versions of the games that are being made for PS4 & Xbox One. I'm saying that MS will be able to achieve 4K versions of Xbox One games using the same rendering technique because the console is actually 4X the power of Xbox One while Sony couldn't go this route because they would need over 7.5TF to be able to run the full range of new PS4 games that are 1080P in 4K without cutting them back to reach 4K..

Long story short Sony found a middle ground using 2X the power & rendering techniques that use less power to get 4K PS4 games.

 

[Synth]

Aside from the fact that you're an MS employee why are you answering a question about the Neo with an answer about the Xbox S?

The post asked about "games", and didn't specify a console... does that really warrant such an accusatory tone?

 

[MilkyJoe]

The goal of both of these new consoles is to be able to have 4K versions of the games that are being made for PS4 & Xbox One. I'm saying that MS will be able to achieve 4K versions of Xbox One games using the same rendering technique because the console is actually 4X the power of Xbox One while Sony couldn't go this route because they would need over 7.5TF to be able to run the full range of new PS4 games that are 1080P in 4K without cutting them back to reach 4K..

Long story short Sony found a middle ground using 2X the power & rendering techniques that use less power to get 4K PS4 games.

It's actually 4.6 the power. But that's neither here not there. You are oversimplifying everything. Scorpio is not 4 Xbones taped together, there's not going to be 1:4 scaling like each duck-taped xbone takes a 1/4 of a screen and therefore Scorpio is constrained by the graphical fidelity and frame rate performance of a single Xbox one.

 

[justsomeguy]

Aside from the fact that you're an MS employee why are you answering a question about the Neo with an answer about the Xbox S?

As Synth says:

The post asked about "games", and didn't specify a console... does that really warrant such an accusatory tone?

Indeed. He didn't mention PS4/Neo *at all*, and sounded like he was interested in HDR specifically - I was just trying to be helpful.

Besides this thread is full of Xbox talk.

e: cheers for sticking up for me Synth... I should get used to the fact that some people can't disassociate "Some enterprise software developer who ended up consulting at Microsoft" from "PR mouthpiece with an agenda". It's frustrating, but what can ya do?

 

[Journey]

It's actually 4.6 the power. But that's neither here not there. You are oversimplifying everything. Scorpio is not 4 Xbones taped together, there's not going to be 1:4 scaling like each duck-taped xbone takes a 1/4 of a screen and therefore Scorpio is constrained by the graphical fidelity and frame rate performance of a single Xbox one.

I think the logic he's using is that since Xbox One games require less power to run, the upgrade to 4K would cost less than PS4 games upgraded to 4K lol.

Code is code, either you have enough juice to run Call of Duty 5 at 4K, or you don't, you're not applying power to upgrade an old game, in fact one could look at the logic that it would require "More Power" to upgrade Xbox One games since they need to go from 900p or 720p, all the way up to 4K, meanwhile PS4 is already at 1080p which would require less effort. "Based on the same borrowed logic, not mine".

 

[c0de]

Doesn't the same apply to the Scorpio? It's bound to be superseded by a new system around the same time to compete against the PS5. That would actually make its life-cycle about a year shorter than that of Neo's.

I don't know if this applies to Scorpio because we don't know if MS will launch a system to respond to ps5. It could be that MS takes a step sideways and builds pcs every five years, no matter what and when Sony releases a new system, being it a neo or a new “gen“. From what I understand, the thinking in generations is over to MS. They will release new iterations of Xbox every x years, putting in the best hardware they can get for a certain price.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Do you have a link to this?

Sorry for the late reply. Long, hot day at work.....

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1931206/

 

[MilkyJoe]

I think the logic he's using is that since Xbox One games require less power to run, the upgrade to 4K would cost less than PS4 games upgraded to 4K lol.

Code is code, either you have enough juice to run Call of Duty 5 at 4K, or you don't, you're not applying power to upgrade an old game, in fact one could look at the logic that it would require "More Power" to upgrade Xbox One games since they need to go from 900p or 720p, all the way up to 4K, meanwhile PS4 is already at 1080p which would require less effort. "Based on the same borrowed logic, not mine".

It would make sense if native 4K were mandated. But it's not so there is nothing to stop 6TF being used for checkerboard, or 1080, ot 1400 with all the bells and whistles. Is checkerboard the Sony secret sauce?

 

[Synth]

I think the logic he's using is that since Xbox One games require less power to run, the upgrade to 4K would cost less than PS4 games upgraded to 4K lol.

Code is code, either you have enough juice to run Call of Duty 5 at 4K, or you don't, you're not applying power to upgrade an old game, in fact one could look at the logic that it would require "More Power" to upgrade Xbox One games since they need to go from 900p or 720p, all the way up to 4K, meanwhile PS4 is already at 1080p which would require less effort. "Based on the same borrowed logic, not mine".

Don't even borrow the logic, lol.

 

[boredandlazy]

I don't remember this "anti used program", can you remind me?

Didn't you know? 'gatti-man' is Latin for 'Adam Sessler'

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Aside from the fact that you're an MS employee why are you answering a question about the Neo with an answer about the Xbox S?

 

[onQ123]

I think the logic he's using is that since Xbox One games require less power to run, the upgrade to 4K would cost less than PS4 games upgraded to 4K lol.

Code is code, either you have enough juice to run Call of Duty 5 at 4K, or you don't, you're not applying power to upgrade an old game, in fact one could look at the logic that it would require "More Power" to upgrade Xbox One games since they need to go from 900p or 720p, all the way up to 4K, meanwhile PS4 is already at 1080p which would require less effort. "Based on the same borrowed logic, not mine".

You're not using the power to upgrade the old game it's the fact that if a game used more resources at 1080P it's going to use more resources at 4K unless you cut back on things. If you're not able to understand that I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[RoboPlato]

Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4, Scalebound in xbox world...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...3-uses-the-xbox-one-s-high-dynamic-range-tech

Awesome

Aside from the fact that you're an MS employee why are you answering a question about the Neo with an answer about the Xbox S?

Knowing that devs are adopting it is something I'm glad to know, even if it isn't for games on Neo. HDR hasn't been talked about at all in regards to Neo leaks so but if devs are using it on the XBO S, it'll surely be in consideration for Neo.

 

[justsomeguy]

Awesome

Glad to be of service! Just realised my new projector doesn't support HDR, which is a shame but not a surprise as it's only a mid / high end 1080p job... Would have been nice though!

 

[LordOfChaos]

You're not using the power to upgrade the old game it's the fact that if a game used more resources at 1080P it's going to use more resources at 4K unless you cut back on things. If you're not able to understand that I don't know what else to tell you.

Scaling the numbers based off where the XBO is to the Scorpio and applying that ratio to the PS4 and Neo doesn't make sense because the XBO rarely hits 1080p and is usually 900. If you're not able to understand that I don't know what else to tell you.


A 7.2 (you said 7.5) Tflop Neo to a 1.8Tflop PS4 doesn't make sense because that scaling on the XBO would lead to 5.2Tflops, not 6, for Scorpio. MS chose 6 and presumably the ROPs and TMUs to match because it's what they decided would work for console 4K/30. It's not an arbitrary numerical scale from where the consoles are presently.

 

[onQ123]

It would make sense if native 4K were mandated. But it's not so there is nothing to stop 6TF being used for checkerboard, or 1080, ot 1400 with all the bells and whistles. Is checkerboard the Sony secret sauce?

What the hell? I'm saying that Sony is using cheaper rendering solutions because they are not able to get a GPU with 4X the power of PS4.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Didn't you know? 'gatti-man' is Latin for 'Adam Sessler'

#dead

 

[MilkyJoe]

You're not using the power to upgrade the old game it's the fact that if a game used more resources at 1080P it's going to use more resources at 4K unless you cut back on things. If you're not able to understand that I don't know what else to tell you.

A scorpio is not an xbox one, at any component level Again, you are over simplifying things.

4K is not mandated, so you can bet your left nut Scorpio will get bells and whistles over 4K native. 1400 up-scaled or something.

 

[timlot]

I don't know if this applies to Scorpio because we don't know if MS will launch a system to respond to ps5. It could be that MS takes a step sideways and builds pcs every five years, no matter what and when Sony releases a new system, being it a neo or a new “gen“..

The only offical statement about PS5 I've seen from Sony was when Shuhei Yoshida said he didn't know if there would be one. Yet, because Neo seems to be a disappointment the "neogaf product mangers" are moving the release date for PS5 up. I use to see 2020 as a release now I see post saying as early as 2018.

As far as MS "stepping sideways" to build PCs. Maybe, but their Windows store needs to catch fire. Third parties would have to put their games in it for it to make financial sense. Also MS doesn't want to compete against their OEM partners who already are uneasy about the Surface product line and would probably revolt if MS started building desktops.

 

[onQ123]

A scorpio is not an xbox one, at any component level Again, you are over simplifying things.

4K is not mandated, so you can bet your left nut Scorpio will get bells and whistles over 4K native. 1400 up-scaled or something.

It was meant to be simple but for some reason people are looking for a deeper answer to me saying that for Neo to be a 4:1 of PS4 like Scorpio is to Xbox One it would need over 7.5TF.



And Yes Scorpio is a 4K version of Xbox One just like Neo is a 4K version of PS4, that doesn't mean that it's restricted to doing 4K but that's what these boxes are being made for.

 

[quest]

The only offical statement about PS5 I've seen from Sony was when Shuhei Yoshida said he didn't know if there would be one. Yet, because Neo seems to be a disappointment the "neogaf product mangers" are moving the release date for PS5 up. I use to see 2020 as a release now I see post saying as early as 2018.

As far as MS "stepping sideways" to build PCs. Maybe, but their Windows store needs to catch fire. Third parties would have to put their games in it for it to make financial sense. Also MS doesn't want to compete against their OEM partners who already are uneasy about the Surface product line and would probably revolt if MS started building desktops.

Most of the 2018 chatter is wishful thinking. I can't think if any good reason to launch in 2018. The dominate leader has never started a new generation. Sony is not going to just move on from this Money making machine for no good reason. The NEO can extend that money making by several years. Secondly the tech will not be there for a full generational leap in 2018. Since Sony is going with the traditional model of generations they will need a real generation leap for the PS5.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

And Yes Scorpio is a 4K version of Xbox One just like Neo is a 4K version of PS4, that doesn't mean that it's restricted to doing 4K but that's what these boxes are being made for.

Scorpio sounds more like a new generation than upgraded XboxOne to me. Especially with the way they said things in the Video Reel.
"This is the Console developers asked us to build" etc...

Wouldnt be suprised if Scorpio wont have the "XboxOne" name.

 

[Metalingus5150]

Scorpio sounds more like a new generation than upgraded XboxOne to me. Especially with the way they said things in the Video Reel.
"This is the Console developers asked us to build" etc...

Wouldnt be suprised if Scorpio wont have the "XboxOne" name.

That goes against what even Microsoft is saying. lol

 

[onQ123]

Scorpio sounds more like a new generation than upgraded XboxOne to me. Especially with the way they said things in the Video Reel.
"This is the Console developers asked us to build" etc...

Wouldnt be suprised if Scorpio wont have the "XboxOne" name.

GPU power wise it's like a generation gap because it's 4.5X the flops of Xbox One like Xbox One was 5.5X the flops of Xbox 360 but this power is going to be used for visual / performance enhancements of games that will also be on Xbox One. The games are the same games.

 

[MilkyJoe]

GPU power wise it's like a generation gap because it's 4.5X the flops of Xbox One like Xbox One was 5.5X the flops of Xbox 360 but this power is going to be used for visual / performance enhancements of games that will also be on Xbox One. The games are the same games.

That's no different from PC and Xbox now. "but" makes it seem like a bad thing? Its just how it's always been.

 

[onQ123]

That's no different from PC and Xbox now. "but" makes it seem like a bad thing? Its just how it's always been.

Huh?


No one is trying to make it a bad thing I'm just saying that it's not a traditional generation change.

 

[Hawk269]

I don't remember this "anti used program", can you remind me?

I don't remember anything "official" but a lot of talk around this time frame was that both Sony and MS and many publishers including EA was really backing the "no used games" agenda. When it backfired, everyone seemed to back pedal on it. Again, nothing "official" that I recall was released, but I really believed that was the direction Sony and MS were going to go with and they had a lot of support from publishers and then we all knew what happened next.

 

[RoboPlato]

A scorpio is not an xbox one, at any component level Again, you are over simplifying things.

4K is not mandated, so you can bet your left nut Scorpio will get bells and whistles over 4K native. 1400 up-scaled or something.

I'm expecting Neo to keep 1080p as a base and use reconstruction techniques to achieve a 4K output while Scorpio opts for a higher native resolution closer to native 4K.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Huh?


No one is trying to make it a bad thing I'm just saying that it's not a traditional generation change.

Yes, u think that general knowledge by now.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I'm expecting Neo to keep 1080p as a base and use reconstruction techniques to achieve a 4K output while Scorpio opts for a higher native resolution closer to native 4K.

I'd be very surprised if native 4K was the norm on Scorpio. Probably 1400 with decent AA and upscaling.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I don't remember anything "official" but a lot of talk around this time frame was that both Sony and MS and many publishers including EA was really backing the "no used games" agenda. When it backfired, everyone seemed to back pedal on it. Again, nothing "official" that I recall was released, but I really believed that was the direction Sony and MS were going to go with and they had a lot of support from publishers and then we all knew what happened next.

This was an interview with Shu...

I'm expecting Neo to keep 1080p as a base and use reconstruction techniques to achieve a 4K output while Scorpio opts for a higher native resolution closer to native 4K.

Same. I am A-OK with this, considering how well 1080p scales on my TV already to 4K.

 

[LurkFish17]

Power isn't the end all be all even in swing markets. Scorpio won't put Xbox ahead of Playstation despite what some evangelists may argue.

Brand power and user base is huge. Even if one system is stronger, if the larger user base is on another platform, a consumer will be more likely to go with what their friends are on.

 

[Caayn]

OnQ123 seems to getter a following, truly miracles can happen.

Power isn't the end all be all even in swing markets. Scorpio won't put Xbox ahead of Playstation despite what some evangelists may argue.

Brand power and user base is huge. Even if one system is stronger, if the larger user base is on another platform, a consumer will be more likely to go with what their friends are on.

It's funny how this argument was unacceptable at the start of this generation (go where your friends are, it's what I've done for a long time) but is now an acceptable argument.

 

[Planet]

Did I somehow mysteriously make a dimensional travel to a parallel universe where FLOPS is the only technical aspect of a game console that has any influence on the quality and resolution of the graphics? There seems to be no doubt this is fact in this thread. *scratches head*

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's funny how this argument was unacceptable at the start of this generation (go where your friends are, it's what I've done for a long time) but is now an acceptable argument.

That only works if you caught him, himself, saying the opposite prior.

This back and forth applies to all sides since the dawn of consoles, lol.