Support NeoGAF

[bitbydeath]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

That could stick more if Sony didn't hold a PS4 press conference months in advance of the Xbox announcement.

Unless you are insinuating that Sony went back in time and changed their press conference after seeing the reaction from MS's announcement?

 

[c0de]

Just like PS3 slim, PS2 slim and PSone, they all have shorter life cycle than the OG.

Eh, but these revisions were cheaper and didn't offer better hardware specs to a point that games looked much better. The systems weren't built to achieve that. Neo is.

 

[Putty]

What movie is this from?

Jaws 2.

 

[Daft Punk]

That could stick more if Sony didn't hold a PS4 press conference months in advance of the Xbox announcement.

Unless you are insinuating that Sony went back in time and changed their press conference after seeing the reaction from MS's announcement?

That's exactly what he's insinuating. People to this day still believe Sony watched MS's conference that morning and in a span of several hours changed their entire conference just to hit on the points that MS flubbed. You can't make this stuff up.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

This never happened.

 

[bitbydeath]

That's exactly what he's insinuating. People to this day still believe Sony watched MS's conference that morning and in a span of several hours changed their entire conference just to hit on the points that MS flubbed. You can't make this stuff up.

Sony would literally need a time machine as they announced the PS4 on Feb 20 months before Xbox and its 'features'.

 

[wapplew]

Eh, but these revisions were cheaper and didn't offer better hardware specs to a point that games looked much better. The systems weren't built to achieve that. Neo is.

But Neo is not a separate entity, it's a PS4, Neo is just a revision in PS4 life cycle.

 

[RexNovis]

There are some serious mental gymnastics happening in this thread. Having the most powerful console does matter and is a major selling point in the biggest swing markets like US and UK. Scorpio will undoubtedly be significantly more powerful than PS4K given all that we know currently. However there are two other factors to consider in this situation: timing and price. This is where predictions on change of momentum become a matter of personal conjecture as its difficult to forecast how much of an impact the earlier release timing of the PS4k or whatever price differential will exist between these two platforms will have when we dont have the necessary information of release dates and price points to extrapolate from.

Nor do we know how the increasingly third party software driven market will react as these short turnover and iteration timelines drastically deviate from past industry norms in what is a very different market than existed in previous gens when platform exclusives were the major driving force for HW sales. All this is to say its silly to make predictions and "statements of fact" right now as there are just too many unknown variables. All that doing so does is reveal your own personal biases.

So please everyone calm down, be patient,and wait for some actual useful info before declaring things as #truthfacts.

Also Matt knows whats up so if he is telling you that you are wrong you should take that as a sign to stop spreading false info.

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

How the hell is this shit still getting spouted after being disproved over and over again? No they never had an Anti-Used DRM plan. It never existed. Stop it with this nonsense.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

This never happened.

Cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug...

Eh, but these revisions were cheaper and didn't offer better hardware specs to a point that games looked much better. The systems weren't built to achieve that. Neo is.

Yes, those a hardly comparable. The PS3s you can still buy today for example are the Slim ones, as they are cheaper to produce. Neo on the other hand is more expensive than the entry-level SKU, so basically IF Sony drops one of the PS4 SKUs once PS5 arrives it might as well be the Neo. For the very same reason I have to disagree with wapplew, as I think it's a total separate entity.

Then again they may choose to offer long-term forward compatibility only for PS4 Neo, while PS4 won't be able to play the PS5 games at some point or even right from the start.

Long story short, quite a couple of different scenarios are possible right now and although I am sure Sony has a master plan, it is still subject to change, depending on the success of Neo, PS5 and the competing consoles.

 

[onQ123]

I'm telling you that's not true.

So you're telling me that a PS4 game that uses the upper limits of the PS4 to reach 1080p 30fps would take the same amount of power to run in 4K as it would take a 1080p 30fps Xbox One game to run in 4K without turning down any effects or anything?

 

[Inuhanyou]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

Please stop.

So you're telling me that a PS4 game that uses the upper limits of the PS4 to reach 1080p 30fps would take the same amount of power to run in 4K as it would take a 1080p 30fps Xbox One game to run in 4K without turning down any effects or anything?

bro...they are the same games by default on both consoles. Unless your referring specifically to first party titles and the assumption that all first party titles max out the system's capabilities, your claims don't work.

 

[Daft Punk]

So you're telling me that a PS4 game that uses the upper limits of the PS4 to reach 1080p 30fps would take the same amount of power to run in 4K as it would take a 1080p 30fps Xbox One game to run in 4K without turning down any effects or anything?

You know who Matt is right?

 

[bitbydeath]

So you're telling me that a PS4 game that uses the upper limits of the PS4 to reach 1080p 30fps would take the same amount of power to run in 4K as it would take a 1080p 30fps Xbox One game to run in 4K without turning down any effects or anything?

Why is PS4 struggling to match Xbox?

 

[c0de]

But Neo is not a separate entity, it's a PS4, Neo is just a revision in PS4 life cycle.

No. Neo is a separate entity, that's why it will be more expensive and will have better hardware. If it would be just a PS4, there would be no sense in spending more money for the Neo as a customer.

 

[Inuhanyou]

No. Neo is a separate entity, that's why it will be more expensive and will have better hardware. If it would be just a PS4, there would be no sense in spending more money for the Neo as a customer.

? That doesn't make much sense. Regardless of the degree of changes, console revisions have always had upgraded parts,even if they had to be forced to run differently to limit them to the previous hardware.

Sony is just taking that concept, upgrading their current unit and selling it as a premium version with the original as a lower cost route.

 

[wapplew]

No. Neo is a separate entity, that's why it will be more expensive and will have better hardware. If it would be just a PS4, there would be no sense in spending more money for the Neo as a customer.

Who said revision have to be cheaper or same price or even same spec? They use the same disk, use the same controller, play the same library, it's a revision.

 

[c0de]

Yes, those a hardly comparable. The PS3s you can still buy today for example are the Slim ones, as they are cheaper to produce. Neo on the other hand is more expensive than the entry-level SKU, so basically IF Sony drops one of the PS4 SKUs once PS5 arrives it might as well be the Neo. For the very same reason I have to disagree with wapplew, as I think it's a total separate entity.

Then again they may choose to offer long-term forward compatibility only for PS4 Neo, while PS4 won't be able to play the PS5 games at some point or even right from the start.

Long story short, quite a couple of different scenarios are possible right now and although I am sure Sony has a master plan, it is still subject to change, depending on the success of Neo, PS5 and the competing consoles.

If they choose to make the Neo long-term forward, it would mean that it would get games that will not release on a vanilla PS4 which Sony said won't happen. But yes, I think there is a lot that is still subject to change.

 

[pottuvoi]

And FP16 is used on mobile a lot because you also have smaller screens, I'm not so sure you could simply plunk half precision onto a HDTV and have things not look odd.

It, it's used a lot because it uses less power than FP32.

Same goes to any new GPUs which allow to properly use FP16 and now some get double throughput of FP32 as well.

If performance is arithmetic limited, FP16 might give you nice boost in efficiency in cases where precision is not needed.

 

[c0de]

? That doesn't make much sense. Regardless of the degree of changes, console revisions have always had upgraded parts,even if they had to be forced to run differently to limit them to the previous hardware.

They didn't really have upgraded parts, they benefited from die shrinks and advances in building chips. This is not what is happening with Neo - it is getting better hardware intentionally.

Sony is just taking that concept, upgrading their current unit and selling it as a premium version with the original as a lower cost route.

So you want to tell me that before, consoles got spec bumps like we see now with the Neo but console manufacturers just "crippled" the hardware intentionally to make it look like the old hardware?
Unless you give proof for that, this is completely nonsense.

Who said revision have to be cheaper or same price or even same spec? They use the same disk, use the same controller, play the same library, it's a revision.

This is arguing semanctics of what a revision is. Neo is completely different to whatever "slim" versions of a Playstation were before.

 

[foxbeldin]

If they choose to make the Neo long-term forward, it would mean that it would get games that will not release on a vanilla PS4 which Sony said won't happen. But yes, I think there is a lot that is still subject to change.

Now that's just a perfect exemple of FUD.

 

[MilkyJoe]

What I am asking you, is why does it take less TF for the Xbox One's 1080p to 4K versus the PS4? That is where you lost me.

He's very confused...

 

[onQ123]

bro...they are the same games by default on both consoles. Unless your referring specifically to first party titles and the assumption that all first party titles max out the system's capabilities, your claims don't work.

I'm saying that MS was able to have a console that is 4X more power than Xbox One so it can run even the best looking 1080P Xbox One game in 4K without turning down the effects & so on but Sony would need more than 6TF to do the same so they are reaching 4K with short cuts instead of trying to have a console that is 4X more powerful than PS4.

You know who Matt is right?

Yes he is a dev

Why is PS4 struggling to match Xbox?

Huh?

 

[bitbydeath]

Huh?

You said PS4 is hitting upper limits to reach 1080p/30fps and Xbox is also managing 1080p/30fps (and also no mention of upper limits for Xbox).

 

[onQ123]

You said PS4 is hitting upper limits to reach 1080p/30fps and Xbox is also managing 1080p/30fps (and also no mention of upper limits for Xbox).

I said a game that's using the upper limits of PS4 for 1080P 30fps (like Uncharted 4)


You want devs to be able to take Uncharted 4 level games from 1080P to 4K without turning down the effects it's going to take more than it would take to run a 1080p Xbox One game in 4K without turning down the effects. (using the same rendering tech for all systems)

 

[bitbydeath]

I said a game that's using the upper limits of PS4 for 1080P 30fps (like Uncharted 4)


You want devs to be able to take Uncharted 4 level games from 1080P to 4K without turning down the effects it's going to take more than it would take to run a 1080p Xbox One game in 4K without turning down the effects. (using the same rendering tech for all systems)

Oh, now I see where you are coming from. Thought you were talking multiplats

 

[Ushay]

What movie is this from?

Matrix man, come on.

 

[wapplew]

This is arguing semanctics of what a revision is. Neo is completely different to whatever "slim" versions of a Playstation were before.

Sony is treating this like a revision, a premium PS4, they said multiple time Neo is within same life cycle.
No need to treat it like a generation killer or major console business shift, Neo is a "slim" revision with power boost for the first time in PS history, nothing more.

 

[c0de]

Sony is treating this like a revision, a premium PS4, they said multiple time Neo is within same life cycle.
No need to treat it like a generation killer or major console business shift, Neo is a "slim" revision with power boost for the first time in PS history, nothing more.

If Neo is in the same life-cycle, it means it will die with the PS4 in terms of support, making it less attractive to buy at all, in my opinion. Who is going to buy an upgraded version of a console that lasts only for 3-4 years?
Also, I didn't say that it's a generatio killer or anything like that - I am trying to understand what Sony will do with hardware that is way better than a vanilla unit but that is tied to the lower spec unit in terms of games, support and lifetime.

 

[Markitron]

This thread reads like a 2013 greatest hits compilation.

And number 1 on that list is 'Sony were going to use DRM as well but changed their mind when they saw what happened to MS'

 

[wapplew]

If Neo is in the same life-cycle, it means it will die with the PS4 in terms of support, making it less attractive to buy at all, in my opinion. Who is going to buy an upgraded version of a console that lasts only for 3-4 years?
Also, I didn't say that it's a generatio killer or anything like that - I am trying to understand what Sony will do with hardware that is way better than a vanilla unit but that is tied to the lower spec unit in terms of games, support and lifetime.

I rather Neo have shorter life cycle than having PS5 to tie with it, making PS5 or whatever come after less attractive to buy, in my opinion.
Sony make it clear that Neo is a PS4 first and foremost, an enhance PS4, I think it's easy to understand. Also, Sony have good track record for lengthy console cycle support, plus they are on the winning side, it's in their best interest to make PS4 life cycle last as long as possible.

 

[Panajev2001a]

If Neo is in the same life-cycle, it means it will die with the PS4 in terms of support, making it less attractive to buy at all, in my opinion. Who is going to buy an upgraded version of a console that lasts only for 3-4 years?

There are people with high disposable income who may not mind paying for the HW upgrade and giving Sony a nice profit margins boost there, but I think that when they say PS4 Neo is in the same lifecycle they are saying that essentially it extends it not that it leaves the end of support date the same or similar to other consoles: Sony generally well supports their HW well after the successor is on the market.

I also expect Neo and PS5 to be overlapping more than PS4 and PS5 possibly with a good degree of titles optimising the cross generation support on that target.

 

[Elios83]

If Neo is in the same life-cycle, it means it will die with the PS4 in terms of support, making it less attractive to buy at all, in my opinion. Who is going to buy an upgraded version of a console that lasts only for 3-4 years?
Also, I didn't say that it's a generatio killer or anything like that - I am trying to understand what Sony will do with hardware that is way better than a vanilla unit but that is tied to the lower spec unit in terms of games, support and lifetime.

Less attractive compared to what?
It's a premium PS4 model, it's not a new platform.
People usually pay 50$ more just to get a bigger hard drive or some horrible special edition console.
The message is pretty simple, it's a PS4 with better hardware to support 4K and other enhancements (better fps, extra effects, better VR). If you're interested in getting a PS4 with those extra features you can buy it, otherwise I guess that Sony is totally happy if you buy a standard PS4 as well. It's clear that they're not expecting the bulk of future PS4 sales to come from Neo but they see it as a complement.
Of course you could also wait for Scorpio, PS5 or whatever console will be released in the future but that has little to do with the purpose of Neo which is meant to be a premium SKU in the PS4 family and that's all.

 

[c0de]

I rather Neo have shorter life cycle than having PS5 to tie with it, making PS5 or whatever come after less attractive to buy, in my opinion.

Of course - if you have a vanilla PS4, the PS5 will even be more of a bump than the Neo.

Sony make it clear that Neo is a PS4 first and foremost, an enhance PS4, I think it's easy to understand.

Of course this is easy to understand. The implications are still unclear, though.

Also, Sony have good track record for lengthy console cycle support, plus they are on the winning side, it's in their best interest to make PS4 life cycle last as long as possible.

Console support for PS3 games in terms of first party titles clearly dropped like a rock when PS4 was released.
Of course they keep up the infrastructure, 3rd party games still get released and they still add games to PS+.

 

[c0de]

There are people with high disposable income who may not mind paying for the HW upgrade and giving Sony a nice profit margins boost there, but I think that when they say PS4 Neo is in the same lifecycle they are saying that essentially it extends it not that it leaves the end of support date the same or similar to other consoles: Sony generally well supports their HW well after the successor is on the market.

I also expect Neo and PS5 to be overlapping more than PS4 and PS5 possibly with a good degree of titles optimising the cross generation support on that target.

Sony said there will be no games on Neo that are not on PS4. So support for Neo will die with the support of the vanilla PS4.

 

[wapplew]

Sony said there will be no games on Neo that are not on PS4. So support for Neo will die with the support of the vanilla PS4.

That's good news for me.
As soon to be day 1 Neo owner, that's what I want, no forward compatible. I buy Neo for enhance PS4 game, 4K output and Bluray, not for possible down port/scale PS5 games in future. If I want PS5 games, I buy a PS5.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I said a game that's using the upper limits of PS4 for 1080P 30fps (like Uncharted 4)


You want devs to be able to take Uncharted 4 level games from 1080P to 4K without turning down the effects it's going to take more than it would take to run a 1080p Xbox One game in 4K without turning down the effects. (using the same rendering tech for all systems)

This is some weird logic. Are you assuming that Scorpio games will not have high level graphics or something? I'm trying to get my head around this. What do you think a 4K Scrorpio game is going to be restricted by what Xbone can do at 1080? Like how PC was with Battlefront being 1080 on xbone?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Sony said there will be no games on Neo that are not on PS4. So support for Neo will die with the support of the vanilla PS4.

This is the status quo and that's what I get from it, too.

Yet with PlayStation becoming some kind of "environment" with permeable barriers between the generations, Sony has different possibilities to address this issue in the future:

1. (Forced) full forward compatibility of PS5 games on every PS4 (vanilla and Neo) during the whole generation
2. (Forced) full forward compatibility of PS5 games on every PS4 at the start of the generation (only first ~3 years), then
. 2a. abandon complete PS4 support (devs are still allowed to support it, but not forced to do it)
. 2b. abandon vanilla PS4 support but keep PS4 Neo support
3. Offer exclusive PS5 games but also enable forward compatibility games should devs want to offer them
4. Offer only unique PS5 games (no FC at all), keep vanilla and (unlikely!) or Neo SKU in portfolio as cheap entry solution to PlayStation environment

I asume Sony will choose the one they deem most effective to ensure a seamless migration of PS4 users to the new one, while at the same time offering an unique incentive / proposition to do so in the first place.

 

[robo]

Will be getting a neo for 4k output and my ps4 games, will be getting a 4k TV for said 4k content.

Will get a ps5 for said 4k content, ps5 games and bc of ps4 games.

I will be a happy chappie if this is how it plays.

My stock ps4 goes into suitcase for my travels around the UK as it does now, but neo/ps5 stay at home for the 4k playtime when I'm home.

Don't mind playing my older games when away, and then returning to new stuff when home.

If neo can play ps5 games at lower res etc then that's a bonus and I can then take that away with me

 

[LordOfChaos]

What movie is this from?

Out of curiosity what year were you born? Kind of funny. Every 80s and early 90s born kid and earlier are flipping out that you don't know, lol.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Adapting to your competitor is hardly running for the hills and Sony "ran for the hills" at launch when it dropped its anti used program when Sony saw the reaction to Microsofts similar plan. It's just smart business.

Here we go again.

That's good news for me.
As soon to be day 1 Neo owner, that's what I want, no forward compatible. I buy Neo for enhance PS4 game, 4K output and Bluray, not for possible down port/scale PS5 games in future. If I want PS5 games, I buy a PS5.

Same here.

 

[The God]

You know who Matt is right?

didn't he say that Scorpio wouldn't leapfrog Neo in power?

who is he and why do people take his word as gospel?

 

[DeepEnigma]

didn't he say that Scorpio wouldn't leapfrog Neo in power?

who is he and why do people take his word as gospel?

Source?

 

[RexNovis]

didn't he say that Scorpio wouldn't leapfrog Neo in power?

He never said any such thing.

 

[RoboPlato]

didn't he say that Scorpio wouldn't leapfrog Neo in power?

who is he and why do people take his word as gospel?

Don't remember him saying anything like that. He's a vetted developer with a long history on GAF and has never said anything inaccurate or misleading as far as I can remember.

 

[SPDIF]

Source?

He never said any such thing.

Don't remember him saying anything like that. He's a vetted developer with a long history on GAF and has never said anything inaccurate or misleading as far as I can remember.

I'm guessing this is what he means, not sure:

Nah, I don't.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm guessing this is what he means, not sure:

Ah yes, I remember that.

And that is also not the same as 'will not leapfrog'.

 

[RexNovis]

I'm guessing this is what he means, not sure:

"Blow out of the water" has much larger implications than what we are seeing with differences between these two HW revisions. That would imply like a generation level gap to most and that is certainly not the case between the two. You could certainly make that argument for generation sized gap between XB1 and Scorpio but not PS4k and Scorpio. Nowhere has he said Scorpio wouldn't be more powerful or wouldn't "leapfrog" the PS4k.

 

[The God]

I'm guessing this is what he means, not sure:

Yeah that's it

 

[RoboPlato]

I'm guessing this is what he means, not sure:

Ah, I don't think I saw that.

That was still in the speculative stage for what MS would be doing. Everything he's said about Neo has been after kits were out.

 

[DeepEnigma]

"Blow out of the water" has much larger implications than what we are seeing with differences between these two HW revisions. That would imply like a generation level gap to most and that is certainly not the case between the two. You could certainly make that argument for generation sized gap between XB1 and Scorpio but not PS4k and Scorpio. Nowhere has he said Scorpio wouldn't be more powerful or wouldn't "leapfrog" the PS4k.

Exactly. will not 'blow out of water' =/= 'leapfrog'

Yeah that's it

Well your definition and interpretation is wrong.